Is nobody in the gay community going to criticize the widespread practice of castrating gay men under the premise it turns them into women? Some of them have more serious metal health problems and weird fetish stuff but the vast majority are just gay boys with depression.
And now they are going after them as kids. Are you guys comfortable with giving gay boys a choice at age 12 over whether to be a boy or a pseudo girl? Are you comfortable telling them that they need to change themselves and that being both feminine and male at the same time is something that needs to be fixed?
"gender dysphoria in childhood does not inevitably continue into adulthood, and only 6 to 23 percent of boys and 12 to 27 percent of girls treated in gender clinics showed persistence of their gender dysphoria into adulthood. Further, most of the boys' gender dysphoria desisted, and in adulthood, they identified as gay rather than as transgender."
"The review of more than 100 international medical studies of
post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive
research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific
evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective. "
oh no they are unable to pass their superior gay genes on
>Are you guys comfortable with giving gay boys a choice at age 12 over whether to be a boy or a pseudo girl?
>Are you comfortable telling them that they need to change themselves and that being both feminine and male at the same time is something that needs to be fixed?
Giving people a choice is not the same as telling them anything. Anyone with a basic grasp of logic would realize this.
God I wish gay conversion therapy worked in real life. Because hypnosis is so fucking hot. And changing someone's orientation is hot too.
This is better than usual, at least. Thank you for your effort, OP.
The first link you post describes the problem with diagnosing gender dysphoria in children: unlike with adolescents and adults, their transgender identification isn't generally persistent. Thankfully, the current treatment for even the most severe cases of gender nonconforming children is to put them on hormone blockers to delay their physical puberty and secondary sex-differentiation while allowing them to continue to otherwise mature. The patient, their family, and their doctors then have time to wait for a clear and persistent gender identity to be asserted to determine how to proceed without going through one or another quite-possibly traumatic puberty first.
Your second link is ridiculous: ARIF, while it was still ARIF, turned its nose up at any study that wasn't a double-blind, something impossible in matters of transitioning. They outright discarded any study that wasn't at least single-blind, something just as impossible (due to the existence of ethics boards) in matters of transitioning. Whether they failed to disclose the reasons for their statement when they spoke with the Guardian, or whether the Guardian skipped printing them to make a more impactful story, I do not know, but that's how things shake out.
Your fears are based on incomplete information.
So I guess that's a no. You guys really don't see this as a problem for the gay community even with the massive suicide rate. There is no issue raised at all with you guys about lying people into the closet and giving them hormone imbalances and mood swings? Well I guess if you guys aren't worried....
Akaka - Sorry but you aren't getting it. They weren't misdiagnosed . They overcame it after having gender dysphoria serious enough to be sent to a gender clinic. Despite what you might have come to believe nobody is predetermined to alter their body like this, they are the same as gay people biologically. Just with depression and mental health isuses
And no the Guardian study did not throw out any article that wasn't double blind it simply commented that no quality studies were done. It looked for studies proving success. The studies that have been conducted either do not show good outcomes or are incompetently produced. As you might expect the people who operate fringe sex change clinics are not the best doctors and many are really more of an advocate than a doctor
>>An established body of medical research demonstrates the effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery as forms of therapeutic treatment for many people diagnosed with GID… Therefore, be it RESOLVED, that the AMA supports public and private health insurance coverage for treatment of gender identity disorder.
>McHugh does cite one study from 2011, by Cecilia Dhejne, MD and colleagues at Karolinska Institute in Stockholm. However, he misunderstands Dr. Dhejnes work. In the paper, Dr. Dhejne states that the study was not designed to draw conclusions on the efficacy of transgender surgeries, yet McHugh does exactly that. A closer reading of the paper shows that the increased mortality is in those who had surgery before 1989, and that mortality in trans people after 1989 is not statistically different from the general population. A recently published paper by Dr. Dhejne and colleagues shows that the regret rate for those having surgery from 2001-2010 is only 0.3%. Dr. Dhejnes work shows that outcomes for transgender surgery have improved tremendously in the past 30 years, which supports the HHS decision to remove trans exclusions.
>The American Psychiatric Association and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health no longer view transgender identity as inherently pathological. Dr. McHughs views are stuck in the past.
>Dan Karasic, MD Health Sciences Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, UCSF Member, American Psychiatric Association Workgroup on Gender Dysphoria Member, Board of Directors, World Professional Association for Transgender Health
Nobody does anything irreversible with children either. They only get full reversible puberty delaying drugs by puberty and by that point the gid desistance is nil.
Everything you said is false
There is no robust scientific evidence that srs is clinically effective. Period. This is not unusual for depression treatments.
Ano no, giving children puberty blockers is not reversable nor is gibving a male lage doses of estrogen. Estrogen acts as a chemical catsration. They used to do this to gay people against their will. That's what happened to Alan Turing
>If you transition before puberty you are too young to know
>If you wait until puberty then you're a hon
I like where the future is headed on this transgender issue.
Not fully reversible, please stop saying this.
If you take t blocking/puberty blocking drugs in most cases boys developed gyno which isn't reversible without surgery.
we're all just going to be seen as jeffrey dahmer type figures for saying this even if it is a consistent gay fantasy. I'm really used to censoring myself around Straight ppl I guess.
Oh, I've never been on /pol/ aisde from a time someone told me my picture was posted into a tranny debate thread. It was just a bunch of people fighting over whether I passed or not. Maybe I'll lurk there sometime just for shits and giggles.
>They overcame it after having gender dysphoria serious enough to be sent to a gender clinic.
Going to a gender clinic does not mean you have gender dysphoria.
Also some part of me always knew I was gonna end up undergoing some form of major body modification during my life.
conversion therapy doesnt work.
dont you know about all the poor kids they tortured with conversion therapy that committed suicide?
I'm a woman not a man.
Being any kind of man disgusts me.
It has nothing to do with expressing myself or clothes or submissiveness or any of that.
Im a girl. You put me in guy clothes im a girl crossdressed as a guy.
I wish I could have the time back I spent trying to force myself to be a straight male and when I forced myself to try and be gay.
At this point I hope youre trolling because youre just ignoring tons of medical science.
>boys developed gyno
oh wow you have boobs what a horrible fucking fate
just like every other slightly over weight person
the opposite choice being your skeleton and everything is completely fucking wrong for the rest of your life and your hormones are wrong and you want to die.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but am I right to believe there for that everyone of your cells (as mtf) is xy. That you are geneticly male, you just think there for your perception is you are female , but infact you are male? Perhaps I am mistaken...
Indeed, hormones which are released from sexual organs. But to suppress this and add the other sexes ones dose not change anything. Geneticly anyways. And it is true you can (I don't know the right word for this ) turn either sex into having secondary sex characteristics of the other sex via HRT. But not primary, nor does it change ones genetic male up. So no matter how fantastic someone may look and feel, it is ultimately just secondary sexual characteristics on a genetic male. Am I misinterpreting something here? I do not wish to offend, but I cannot get my head around this.
So your definition of what makes someone male or female is the presence of xx or xy chromosomes?
Then let me ask you this: when was the last time you karyotyped someone on the street? Or any of your friends and family? Or even yourself?
You have no idea when people you are interacting with fit your definition of 'man' and 'woman'.
Again, your first article is not about what you think it's about. You cited it personally, so I am going to hold you to reading and understanding it.
And study that ARIF conducted did indeed outright discard as "not quality" any study conducted without a control and experiment group - no ethics boards outside Russia or North Korea would approve it. Ultimately, it resulted in this, their second review of research into the effectiveness of GRS, having only 2 studies they bothered to read past the synopsis. This is a big step up from their first review, where they "cracked the cover" of only half as many studies, but it's still a shameful display of ignorance on the subject matter they were reviewing.
People who seek to transition are a tiny fragment of the populace. People who transition and regret doing so are a tiny fragment of *that* populace. People exhibiting regret over transitioning because they no longer identify as the sex they transitioned to are a tiny fragment of *that* populace.
Your fears are illusory. Homosexuals are not being compelled to transition.
Some what rude, but I guess I have offended you, sorry. Still I am only trying to understand and just telling me I have no idea isn't really helping me at all. Still do what you must. I'm a microbiology student, this is just the way I think about these kinds of issues... I only really wish to understand, to be educated. The articles I find online allways seem to have some kind of bias, so its difficult to work out what is true and what is not.
I'm unsure what you mean by "Karyotyped" but I assume you mean by this that when I've judged someone by there genetics? I would say all of the time...? Is this incorrect? Someone can hide who they are, but there genetics never will. I know that sounds bad, but I couldn't think of any better phrasing. Also I have a friend who was born a woman and now is a man, I like him, hes a very good friend. I only wanted to ask to find out, I'm too embarrassed to ask him personally. Sorry to those I may have offended.
>I'm unsure what you mean by "Karyotyped" but I assume you mean by this that when I've judged someone by there genetics? I would say all of the time...? Is this incorrect?
you're judging them by their phenotypes
>Some what rude, but I guess I have offended you
>Someone can hide who they are, but there genetics never will
>Sorry to those I may have offended.
sorry isnt enough
What did I say wrongly? This is an undeniable truth! Should science just be thrown out of the window so people are not offended?
Yes? Of course I am! Why wouldn't I? Its how we see classify and define all organisms, are humans an exception?
My head hurts just trying to understand. Have I missed something? I really don't wish to upset people... Just to understand! :(
>These discoveries have pointed to a complex process of sex determination, in which the identity of the gonad emerges from a contest between two opposing networks of gene activity. Changes in the activity or amounts of molecules (such as WNT4) in the networks can tip the balance towards or away from the sex seemingly spelled out by the chromosomes. “It has been, in a sense, a philosophical change in our way of looking at sex; that it's a balance,” says Eric Vilain, a clinician and the director of the Center for Gender-Based Biology at the University of California, Los Angeles. “It's more of a systems-biology view of the world of sex.” According to some scientists, that balance can shift long after development is over. Studies in mice suggest that the gonad teeters between being male and female throughout life, its identity requiring constant maintenance.
a post menopausal woman can hide who she is, but her genetics never will
Oh this is very interesting... Do you have a link to this article? I've never been taught anything like this before, if this really is the case it should be more widely known. Or is it just one study?
Yes, you are correct. This is an odd example to use, but I see your point. I think she would need surgery though :p
If it is genuinely a misunderstanding then maybe i can make it simple.
Questioning a persons genetics wont get you anywhere. we cannot read someones DNA or anything in any actually efficient way to know much about them
What does matter is social perception and personal perception
Do i know i have a technically male body, yes absolutely
does it matter in my day to day life. not at all
When i walk down the street people dont question my genetics or my gender.
Who i interact with see me as just woman.
This is not a lab setting, this is not a doctor, this is not some superscanning alien tech that can check the organization of chromosomes.
in those cases i am a biological male who has undergone a gender transition through the use of hormones. but that isnt how the world works. we dont need to view the world in that way because its not at all how people interact. for all intent and purposes i am a woman and any situation that would require me to be open about my "genetics" i am but those are quite rare and never public.
Hi, thanks for explaining, although I completely agree with you on the social side. I honestly know next to nothing about the mind or the way people interact (forgotten the name of this field oops!). As in the case with my friend, he is a boy, acts like one... And is somewhat handsome! I perceive him as male, it would be stupid to say that he isn't just because of his birth or genetics as the point I raised. It's just when I think about these issues, this keep coming up in my mind and I can't make sense of it, hence why I asked! I do understand you're point though. But I would argue that this is what I tend to hear a lot from a community such as this. It tends to get more emotional... But I guess that is what social interactions are, they are not all ways logical.
Out of interest do you have to say that you where born male for certain things, such as being at the doctors or anything like this? Although come to think of it I can't think of a situation where this would apply. Just my curiosity leading me astray..
Wow! This is a very interesting read.. I had no idea... This changes a lot of fundamentals that I knew. I guess even in my scientific view I shouldn't be so narrow, still I think its good to question things. Provokes many interesting thoughts about the subject. I spoke to a doctor who works at a gender assignment clinic who said that basically not everything that causes gender dysphoria is known yet. He said that it is part genetic and part environmental and part something else that I forgot. Would you agree with that?
Thanks for answering me! :)
Sorry, didn't mean to come off as rude. It's hard to convey tone in text. I was being blunt but not trying to 'yell' at you or shut you down or whatever.
And yes, I should have been more specific about what I meant. 'Karyotyping' is a laboratory technique used to analyse chromosomes. I was trying to make the point that I am pretty sure the number of people you've taken a blood test from in order to get a chromosomal analysis in a lab to find out if they possess xx, xy or something else is pretty small and probably zero.
This is relevant because you have indicated that your standard for what makes someone a 'real male' or a 'real female' is the presence of xx or xy chromosomes, and that anyone who transitions is a 'pseudo male' or pseudo female'.
I didn't mean to imply you had no idea about anything, ever - just that how would you know what chromosomes people around you have?
It also comes from a heavily marginalized group.
That was actually my first post in the thread but i would say i was still on the side of most of the trans people. I understand how it can be hard to wrap around, i have aspergers or now ASD which ment as a child i more or less had to learn social convention and what was right.
Social interactions are never logical, nothing in our lives is completely logical because its still something we see it is and we are still always learning, like why a transperson might feel the way they do.
Transpeople get defensive specifically because you are attacking them, and its a big part of their life. its rational to defend yourself and your views when confronted with a thread that is quite literally about invalidating them. and on a site that is notorious for specifically targeting that group. Now that may have not been your intent on that side but you can understand how people might have problems with that.
I am entirely a person for logic, science, rationality and it think it does great when applied in different ways. But i would Argue that science is open and mysterious although that seems to have been acknowledged within the other reply in your post
I think lots of different things can affect being transgender and i think part of it is lots of different ways it crops up. The human body is an amazing and confusing thing. Like the reason we have animal testing is because they are genetic clones of each other, humans vary so much that you cant even begin to test what medications might work because of all the variables. thats what science is. trying to find away around them and trying to make sense of them
It's okay, I can see how I could have upset you, its just if I make things too hazy it wont seem clear what I am trying to say !:p
Yes I know the process you are describing, I just had never seen the word karyotype with ed on the end, perhaps i'm just being thick! I've never done it to a person, indeed I don't think I've ever done it to any living creature come to think of it... It was more of a though experiment as apposed to being really mean to everyone I passed in the street haha!
Please don't warp my words though. I don't think of anyone on here a pseudo male or female, on in real life. I'm not your enemy! My choice of wording was basic as it highlighted my point, but on reflection perhaps this was incorrect. I just meant that genes are genes. No matter how much make up or whatever is on top! I cant think of how else to explain this without sounding rude, sorry.
Just to be clear, with me I'm very open minded, whatever someone has chosen to identity as or with is how I will see this person. It is just the way I was raised.
Just a tip, maybe next time you want to be educated about a matter such as this, perhaps think more carefully about the language you use to ask for said education.
If you open a thread accusing the people you are addressing of being 'castrated gay men', 'gay boys with depression' abused by modern medicine into becoming 'pseudo girls', people might not want to patiently and lovingly explain why they are not unacceptable abominations.
Hi... I'm not the OP... I only started talking half way though this post... I'd say something but I'd probably be called something abusive... I get it I'm not part of your community but you don't need to be so mean... Think this will be the last time I use this board.
Don't feel bad. It's not like straight guys don't do the same shit to lesbians. "You just haven't found the right guy yet" "you're just scared of cock because you never tried it" etc etc etc.
>Someone was defensive in the thread about attacking them
>leaving cause they were "mean"
You might want to look into another site if you cant understand and handle that people might get a little pissy about a topic which is litterly you are all abominations. weather or not you are OP stop being such a fucking victim that you cant handle someone pushing back at you online.
I'm a microbio student as well. This has less to do with your being a STEM and more to do with your being an autist.
Of course, I'm a hypocrite given that I can't wrap my head around the appeal of femininity or submissiveness in any emotional sense.
It's literally fetishized weakness.
within your perception of what is weak.
The success the species didnt come from everyone being an alpha, while in excess the qualities can make someone weak they can also make them stronger and better for certain situations. Certinly the success of the species was heavily relient on being able to communicate and group together and form societies. these all require a level of both cultural masculinity and feminity.
> I just meant that genes are genes.
Yes. That sure is the thing you just typed. What did you mean by typing it, though? Be explicit, because implication might be more impolite than you intend.
I didn't call anyone an abomination
This is my first post. People got annoyed because I said "Someone can hide who they are, but there genetics never will." I never said anything you claim. It upsets me greatly when you imply such rude and disgusting things! I would never call another human being such horrible words. I can only assume you are trying to provoke me.
I have dyslexia, but I'm not autistic. Such an odd thing to say.
im talking thats the implication of the thread, People cant tell if you are not OP, when you go into a thread that calls transpeople abomonations basically and say something that can easily be perceived as being OP or atleast on his side and then get upset and confused when people go against you. We really dont care if this was your first time posting, maybe its a sign that you need to lurk more if you have trouble understanding this dynamic of conversation
This is the first time I've ever used 4chan, or even viewed it! By your logic you too are saying transpeople are abominations??? By this logic anyone typing in this thread is transphobic?! I'm sorry, but this is the silliest thing I've ever heard.
I was nothing but respectful, trying to explain my view and why I felt like this, even saying sorry when I though I may have caused offense.
Clearly this website deserves its notorious reputation!
your intial views were clearly vauge enough for people to think you were OP or being offensive, maybe if you made a better point of orginizing your thoughts until later. I dont think you are being mean, however i do think you are stupid considering you have a harder time understanding social convention and why people might get defensive than an actual diagnosed autist.
LURK MOAR or go back to the hugbox you came out of
>According to some scientists, that balance can shift long after development is over. Studies in mice suggest that the gonad teeters between being male and female throughout life, its identity requiring constant maintenance. In 2009, researchers reported7 deactivating an ovarian gene called Foxl2 in adult female mice; they found that the granulosa cells that support the development of eggs transformed into Sertoli cells, which support sperm development. Two years later, a separate team showed8 the opposite: that inactivating a gene called Dmrt1 could turn adult testicular cells into ovarian ones. “That was the big shock, the fact that it was going on post-natally,” says Vincent Harley, a geneticist who studies gonad development at the MIMR-PHI Institute for Medical Research in Melbourne.
Chromosomes have been discredited as what makes phenotype for a while now. It's just expression of genes controlling phenotype and hormones and other factors mediate that.
Pretty much the way anything more complex than a fly ticks.
Do you honestly think eukaryotes, let alone placental mamalls use a radically different way of regulating gene expression just cause they look different?
That sex determination system is conserved amongst vertebrates, humans too. To think you'd have some radically alien biochem for each is nonsense.
No. I'm not talking psychology so much as I'm talking physiology. The human female body has been keked by evolution into being objectively physically inferior by a wide margin. Human female bodies have been selected for sex appeal heavily, which, for the human female, means a smaller, weaker, more fragile body with obstructive fatty protrusions.
Why straight guys like their women small and weak I have no fucking idea.
The male body has also been selected for sex appeal, but likely not as heavily, and with much more physically capable results.
It's the whole peacock tail thing.
Yeah, that what I like.
I don't want someone to submit to me; I respect them less. I don't want to submit to anyone; I
respect myself less.
Obviously this lack of respect doesn't apply to hierarchies. As much. Mostly.