>>7202309 There's something really sick about the blurb accompanying that photo. It's symptomatic of this tendency, especially on social media, to fetishise pain and misery for the sole purpose of getting people to like you. It's like sadness tourism.
I think there must be probably different types of suicides. I'm not one of the self-hating ones. The type of like "I'm shit and the world'd be better off without poor me" type that says that but also imagines what everybody'll say at their funeral. I've met types like that on wards. Poor-me-I-hate-me-punish-me-come-to-my-funeral. Then they show you a 20 X 25 glossy of their dead cat. It's all self-pity bullshit. It's bullshit. I didn't have any special grudges. I didn't fail an exam or get dumped by anybody. All these types. Hurt themselves. I didn't want to especially hurt myself. Or like punish. I don't hate myself. I just wanted out. I didn't want to play anymore is all. I wanted to just stop being conscious. I'm a whole different type. I wanted to stop feeling this way. If I could have just put myself in a really long coma I would have done that. Or given myself shock I would have done that. Instead.
>>7202414 youre going to have to explain because im not getting the same vibe as you, I understand what youre saying I just dont see how you could feel that way. In what way shape or form is this being used to get people to like you? Granted its poorly worded and lacking emotion but still the last line has meaning. Excluding, "I love it"
>>7202414 this photograph arouses me so much! Why isn't this the most famous photo from al-qaeda's triumph instead of the nose dive man? Isn't two people holding hands after one pulled the other off a building more cooler than one man? It makes me want to write fan-fiction on this photo, were they bros or homos? And did they get all smushed together? It shows that people will find entertainment in any tragic event
>>7202437 >The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.
>>7202414 if anything the writer trivializes pain and misery by drawing a lesson from two people handholding as they jump to their deaths. that's a pretty tangential lesson to draw from the shittiness that was 911 for those people
"Unlike animals, man is not only a prey to bodily pain limited to the passing moment, but also to those incomparably greater mental sufferings, which, reaching forwards and backwards, draw upon the future and the past; and nature, by way of compensation, has granted to man alone the privilege of being able to end his life at his own pleasure, before she herself sets a term to it; thus, while animals necessarily live so long as they can, man need only live so long as he will."
>>7203350 I just came back from a night out with friends, so I'm a bit drunk and maybe not entirely accurate, but here's what I have learned.
To preface my post I admit that suicide is something I have researched and thought about a lot. And in some fucked up and perhaps biased way I view suicide as appropriate for myself. I don't entirely know what that means, but well, I'm still here so.
I can't cite any names of famous people who advocate suicide, but I have listened to and participated in discussion of the topic.
I have encountered many individuals who view suicide as an acceptable resolution to life if, and only if, you have absolute certainty that our future will only result in pain and suffering for yourself and be detrimental to others.
In pretty much all cases of life, we do not have certainty of either of these. So suicide is largely discouraged. This of course includes people who suffer from mental disorders. I suffer from serious depression and even though I have supportive friends and family, I see each day as a painful challenge. From my perspective, suicide seems like the only option. But in reality, I have many options to ameliorate my life.
So there are definitely some exceptions for people who are not thinking clearly. But then the problem of who determines who is thinking clearly arises. We are perhaps on the precipice of discovering the biological and chemical components of thought. Even so, there still remains the problem of what is proper thought.
To get back to the topic of suicide, there is the issue of the right to die. If you are aged and begin to experience the deteriorating effects of aging, is it acceptable to kill yourself?
Many people think that it is acceptable. I tend to agree, but at the same time, I would be saddened if my elderly family or friends chose to die instead of continue living with me. On the other hand, I would hate to see them slowly deteriorate to the point where they can't even feed themselves.
>>7203412 To summarize what I have read, there is generally a lot of support for suicide in the circumstances of the deteriorating effects of aging or terminal illness in an attempt to reduce suffering.
When it comes to a healthy and young person, suicide is largely discouraged as such an individual still has the potential to live a fulfilling life and to contribute to humanity.
There might be some rare circumstances where this is not true. In this case, suicide could be considered acceptable. However, with our current understanding of the human mind and potential, it is impossible to know if continued life would be a net negative.
Essentially, even though life seems fucked up and shitty, you really can't predict the future. So you should try to make the best of it.
Unfortunately, I don't know how to do that. And ultimately, I might just become another who dies before he achieves his potential.
This little fella knew that whatever the colony held in store for him it'd be a life of routine and hardship and that it simply wasn't for him. We are all marching toward certain death, this guy just wanted to do it is own way. So when you guys sit in your fucking cubicle and whine about not having time to write your magnum opus or doing that thing that you really should be doing, that you were meant to do. Think about that penguin, because you chose the colony. He chose the infiniteness beyond the mountain range.
>>7203646 That's just bad anthropomorphism. Imaging that an aquatic bird that eats raw fish and lives in an environment that would kill you, thinks any like you is a foolish conceit. The whole thing is manipulative filmmaking at its worse, it isn't about investigating animal behaviour, it is about imposing their own fantasies on an animal. It's quite possibly just a brain damaged creature, whose sense of smell, or whatever else it uses for orientation, is faulty.
Schopenhauer would say that such behaviors in non-human animals are due to blind instincts and trained reflexes, rather than due to explicit consciousness of memories or conceptual expectations of future events - with the possible exception, to varying degrees, of the "higher" animals: elephants, other apes, dogs.
This is just to say that he wouldn't be at a total loss to account for the facts you're pointing to - though he might have constructed a somewhat different system if he had access to contemporary biological data, and didn't... ya know... die in 1860.
>>7204461 What an obnoxious little shit. It is this kind of reasoning that changes me from being ambivalent on the subject of suicide to being firmly convinced that it is wrong and cowardly. He couldn't make his point worse if he tried.
>>7202791 An idiot who thinks powerful people are keeping us from realizing the universe is an infinite plane by telling us antarctica is not just a mass of land but a gigantic ring encompassing the whole of earth as we know it.
>>7203662 the truth that herzog depicts isn't inferior to the scientific truth of the situation, and the fact that you consider it to be not even a truth is pretty disappointing from somebody on /lit/. you say it's "bad anthropomorphism" which is a matter of opinion, but you seem to be rejecting it just because it's anthropomorphism, which is stupid because it's a literary technique.
i also wouldn't be so certain that you're right, to just write off it as "brain damage". that's as speculative as what herzog is saying. hypothetically you could attribute similar actions by humans as, if not brain damage, then 'schizophrenia' or some other pseudoscientific write-off explanation. i don't think that makes you too much smarter than your strawman who believes that what herzog is saying is the literal objective truth. herzog isn't attenborough. that's not what he's attempting.
>>7205466 Anthropomorphism is an essential literary technique, I of course know this. That is why I said it was manipulative filmmaking because it clumsily applies that useful literary technique in order to get people to believe some stupid fantasy about the real world when presented in an apparently serious documentary. If you want to write an existentialist fable about penguin mountain climbing or Camus like individualism that's fine, it should probably be called Happy Feet or something though.
I'm no penguin biologist so I don't happen to know the reasons for that penguin's behaviour, brain damage wasn't a strawman it was a guess at a far more likely reason than angst. No herzog isn't a biologist either and biology isn't what he is attempting. What he seems to be doing is to apply some ridiculous human narrative to penguin behavior creating a tearjerker or a comedy, thereby hiding the actual interesting story. The whole effect is dishonest and not half as good as a Danny Devito voiced cartoon version of the same story without the fake veneer of realism that live creatures offer.
>>7203646 So there must be a threshold to the amount of pleasure and purpose that fit into one life and your remainig time on this planet depends on how densely you spread it out on your daily timescale?
How can one measure living a life well? Is living a long life full of videogames as a rich life with an early death?
>>7202605 By the time you are driven to suicide, you've already gone through some terrible experiences that drove you to kill yourself. By the time youre dead, you already have experience the terrible things you want to escape from by suicide.
>>7202309 "Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world."
It's romanticizing tragedy at best and blatantly voyeuristic at worst. It's the same ideology that drives those insipid "feels" threads on /b/, where people all get together to revel in the pain of others in the name of cheap and shallow emotional stimulation.
Private moments of suffering or sadness shouldn't be trivialized.
>>7202447 >It shows that people will find entertainment in any tragic event Sick entertainment. Within seconds they made the decision it might be better to die from falling than getting burned alive. The, why not jump together, holding hands. I don't see much to write about.
>>7206659 >Private moments of suffering or sadness shouldn't be trivialized. This goes through my mind every time I see one of those ''giving a homeless guy ****** watch his reaction!'' videos. It makes you question all genuineness of the social kindness displayed. Too many people do it, though, because a moment not recorded is a moment not lived nowadays.
>>7202309 "Of an apartment-building manager who had killed himself I was told that he had lost his daughter five years before, that he had greatly changed since, and that the experience had “undermined” him. A more exact word cannot be imagined. Beginning to think is beginning to be undermined. Society has but little connection with such beginnings. The worm is in man’s heart."
>>7202309 "...through reflection. What sets off the crisis is almost always unverifiable. Newspapers often speak of “personal sorrows” or of “incurable illness.” These explanations are plausible. But one would have to know whether a friend of the desperate man had not that very day addressed him indifferently. He is the guilty one. For that is enough to precipitate all the rancors and all the boredom still in suspension."
These are excerpts of Ben Price's analysis of The Myth of Sisyphus. Mr. Price did end up committing suicide at the age of 27.
There is a really good one in Purity about suicide being a proxy murder for someone the victim could not bear to kill. It's worded much better and also seems sorta spiteful but all in all i thought it was an interesting point,
err...how often is a building about to burn down, or a plane about to crash, and one perseptive nigga like me goes ahead, and gets a girl to blow him, or just totally fuck right then and there, and then it turns out we both survive, and we have to just go on, not sure if it was rape or what it was?
>When, in some dreadful and ghastly dream, we reach the moment of greatest horror, it awakes us; thereby banishing all the hideous shapes that were born of the night. And life is a dream: when the moment of greatest horror compels us to break it off, the same thing happens.
>Suicide may also be regarded as an experiment — a question which man puts to Nature, trying to force her to an answer. The question is this: What change will death produce in a man’s existence and in his insight into the nature of things? It is a clumsy experiment to make; for it involves the destruction of the very consciousness which puts the question and awaits the answer.
>>7203350 David Benatar doesn't explicitly advocate it per se but I doubt he'd have anything against absolutely instantaneous annihilation of the planet by a hypothetical Death Star equivalent. Suicides in a slow sequence one after another would probably cause more suffering then prevent unless people wouldn't procreate faster than they'd die out.
>>7211020 Found it "...every suicide was a proxy for a murder that the perpetrator could only symbolically commit; every suicide a murder gone awry." If someone leaves their body to be found by someone who loves them then i beleive this quote is applicable
Why can't i sympathize with suicide ? I've suffered so much, lost so much and so many in my life. I've wanted to fall into a coma and disappear before. Yet, i've never tried to kill myself, nor i find it reasonable for anyone to do it. I understand there are unbearable pain for some, but. Why not try ? There is always another way. Why go to the easiest, most extreme path ? There are stronger and weaker people. But why not try to become stronger ? What i'm saying may be sounding extremely ignorant, i'm aware. I'm also in constant company of suicidal people (some even tried more than once to die), yet i'm unable to sympathize. What gives ?
>>7214473 they don't need your sympathy. Some people just don't like life. it can be uncomfortable. you don't really gain anything from being "stronger", you just get to exist slightly longer with the same end result.
>>7214808 I'm not saying they need my sympathy. I want to know why i don't like them exactly. And not saying that i'm stronger, but strong people do gain something. By your logic, no one should attempt or be anything in life because the ultimate end result will be the same.
>>7206256 You can allow yourself to have infinite purpose or a defined amount, or you can allow extraneous forces assign you a set amount of purpose. Purpose is subjective and you can choose to measure it however you feel. There's no threshold written on the Ten Commandments and there's no threshold written into the basis of the human experience. You can extrapolate this to living well. If you believe that you have lived well, there's no court or council who can adequately say yes you did or no you didn't. On what basis would they argue. Who would you argue had the more fulfilling life Alexander the Great or Diogenes? You answer only tells you where your values lie, and in how you measure purpose. Your answer doesn't justify on discredit another's answer.
>>7203350 Stoicism suggests that suicide is the right decision if you are no longer able to lead a virtuous life, e.g. physical condition is too poor, you are enslaved, mental condition deteriorates, etc.
Platonism does as well, to a lesser extent. Socrates' suicide was seen as an extremely virtuous act. Both philosophies view life as "practice for death," but their views on death are different. Their ideas on suicide are similar, though; kill yourself if something in your life is preventing your from practicing virtue (Seneca) or philosophy (Socrates).
>>7211573 You should have killed yourself before you even began to feel pain. If you're killing yourself to escape from pain, it implies that you have been living with that pain. Death is the escape, but the escape comes a little late once you've lived with the pain.
It reminds me of what this one idiot I know said about his time in Cuba, he basically said that Cuban society was quaint and he loved his time there. He was using this to argue why the totalitarian Castro regime was good.
I think it's the patronizing detached tone that pisses me off.
“People pontificate, "Suicide is selfishness." Career churchmen like Pater go a step further and call in a cowardly assault on the living. Oafs argue this specious line for varying reason: to evade fingers of blame, to impress one's audience with one's mental fiber, to vent anger, or just because one lacks the necessary suffering to sympathize. Cowardice is nothing to do with it - suicide takes considerable courage. Japanese have the right idea. No, what's selfish is to demand another to endure an intolerable existence, just to spare families, friends, and enemies a bit of soul-searching.”
>>7202313 I never understood this. And I actually tried to kill myself once from mental illness.
People don't seem to kill themselves because of suffering they experienced in the past, but rather to end their present suffering. So I don't see why it's too late? And even if so, its better late than never.
Lets say someone sets you on fire with gasoline while you are asleep, you wake up suddenly in extreme agony completely engulfed in flame, it is the worst most unimaginable pain you've experienced. Then your life pauses. God comes to you and says that because he is all knowing he can tell you that you will die from being burnt to death, there is no escape. But he says that due to being a good person he will give you the opportunity to die right now, he will smite you where you stand, saving you from the worst of the pain, from your eyeballs burning and the thick acrid smoke choking your lungs and burning your throat and mouth.
You reply, "there's no point. you see god, if I decide to be smited it will have been to late, for I am already on fire" with a smug grin on your face.
God sighs, he knew you were going to say that. And so you burn over the next 15 minutes, experiencing some of the worst pain a human can undergo, finally succumbing into death with 95% 3rd degree burns, your balls cock fingers hair and clothes turned to ash leaving nothing but a smoking blackened mass - stiff, for your parents to bury".
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