>Char and Amuro are last seen fighting each other with swords
>"I came here to laugh at you"
>Back to trying to kill each other
You can't explain it.
More like UC and Gundam is not that well written and somewhat incoherent.
Remove Zeta and MSG and CCA make sense. Zeta throws a wrench into the storyline by massively changing Char and then having him massively change off screen again between Zeta and CCA.
People who say this often don't even understand Char's character.
Their rivalry in MSG was, I think, mostly Amuro being childish and full of hubris. He was the only one who could pilot the Gundam, which was the only match for Char's skill. HE had to be the one to beat him. Up until Lalah, it wasn't really anything personal for Char.
In Zeta Amuro's much more mature, and for the most part has gotten over Lalah. He recognizes that this time he and Char happen to be on the same side and is able to work with him. Char himself might not really be over Lalah as we see in CCA, but he's smart enough to know picking fights with Amuro right now wouldn't really help anything he's working towards.
In CCA he's trying to drop fucking asteroids onto Earth so obviously he and Amuro are gonna fight about it.
The entire movie really operates on the assumption Zeta Gundam basically never happened. What really happened is Char spent those 14 years in isolation, building up the Neo Zeon army and plotting to get his revenge for Lalah's death that he's been fanatically clinging to since he was last seen in MSG.
Honestly. It's the only way the conflict makes sense. Everything about Char's character in CCA is a direct continuation to the angry and bitter character he always was in MSG, without even trying to incorporate his character development from Zeta.
This. CCA is a direct sequel to MSG. Also remember: Not everyone is a diehard Gundam fan who sees every single series. They wanted to aim something at as broad an audience as possible.
Amuro spells it out within the first 30 minutes of the movie. By attempting diplomacy, Char learned that the Federation was too corrupt to be reasoned with as he had tried to during Zeta Gundam and came to hate them so much that he wanted to drop asteroids on their heads. Meanwhile in actuality he was still angry about Lalah and used the pretense of fulfilling his father's legacy to stage a final duel with Amuro so that he could reconcile both aspects of his personality.
There, that's your answer.
The setbacks of Zeta along with seeing the Zeon cause corrupted into an army to take over Earth again by Haman in ZZ convinced Char hat his father's dream of humanity moving out into space and leaving the petty fighting over Earth behind wasn't going to happen unless he forced it to. He tried doing it the nice way in Zeta, now it's no more Mr. nice guy and he's going to take Earth off the table for humans to fight over by making it uninhabitable for us. The rivalry with Amuro flares up again because Amuro is fighting to preserve the corrupt Earth federation and the years of resentment over Lahlah's death just adds to it.
Char's character makes perfect sense in CCA.
I don't know what everyone has trouble believing.
Char grew impatient, is all. Remember he made a statement in Zeta about if they have to wait for everybody to become Newtypes naturally, it could be too late.
And Haman and Glemy fucked up the first Neo-Zeon movement, Kamille was made catatonic (and even when he snapped out of it, I can't imagine he's up for helping the Newtype cause), and the Federation let a colony get dropped on Ireland just to control population.
The writing is on the wall. Char felt he had to take drastic steps.
>And Haman and Glemy fucked up the first Neo-Zeon movement
>Zeon fucked up their chance for peace between Earth and the colonies, therefore Char should try even harder to revive Zeon's facism and the Earthnoids are the ones who deserve to be punished with a massive colony drop
yeah no. Still doesn't make sense as a believable character decision.
Neo Zeon and its trappings were just decoration. Char had a goal, forcing humanity off of Earth, which he felt would, in the long run, serve humanity. If he had to play the devil for some to do it, he would.
I think the real problem is that Char's plan was stupid as hell, so it seems like he's doing something completely out of character because people don't want to believe he would do something so outrageous. He's basically a generic super villain.
>If he had to play the devil for some to do it, he would.
He even says to Nanai that if he had to take on the burden of being a hated figure in humanity's history, so be it. He thought that engaging in something heinous was the only way to get humanity to change.
Also at play was his own death wish and existential breakdown.
Char and Amuro did not become friends in Zeta. If anything, they are the perfect counterpoint to the whole UNDERSTANDING meme, in the sense that they understand each other perfectly and understand what the other is going through when no one else around them does but still do not really like each other.
About Char specifically--he is a moral coward and does not like being in a position of leadership, despite the fact that he is the son of Zeon Deikun and is endowed with considerable natural charisma. His hope had been that the folks he was mentoring in the AEUG would be the ones who would be able to change the world for the better, but nearly all of them died or became braindead. All the while, the wars never stopped, the ideals of Zeon were perverted even further by Haman and co, and the status quo remained the same. It was these factors together that lead to Char taking matters into his own hands.
I don't hate him, he's a good character with pretty damn compelling drama to him.
He's just a terrible, conflicted, petty person in a way that makes him less of a badass, so it can sort of seem like people are shitting on the character when they're just discussing the his actual character rather than just talking about the ideal of char as the three-times-faster enemy ace.
Being on the same side and fighting the same enemy doesn't mean they are friendly. In Zeta, they share the same goal and choose to cooperate, but if you actually pay attention to the dialogues between Char and Amuro, you'll realize there is still bitterness from 79.
They are only friendly in the strategic sense.
I always see this from people who claim that his actions in CCA don't make sense but who have no problem with him switching sides in Zeta. He's the same guy from MSG the whole time, everything he does is for himself.
Char was possessed by a pair of sunglasses named Quattro Bajeena for much of Zeta. The thoughts of the glasses invaded his mind, and he reacted violently once he was able to evade their influence.
Kamille is like in all the worst ways. But its like Kamille grew up in the UCGoogle era and Char knows it. He just sees how stupid the damn kid is and how dangerous it is.
Zeta was Japan's Psycho. The main character is a lunatic masquerading as a civilized person.
I think it's more Tomino exploring or mulling over Newtypes? Char said some things along similar lines at the end of 0079. After getting whupped by Amuro in and out of mobile suits, he said something about how horrifying newtypes were iirc?
Kamille's just a frustrated, angry kid who gradually calms down and centers himself. In that scene in particular he's just hurt and being passive aggressive.
I don't think anyone that seriously thinks he's some bizarro "lunatic" really watched the show.
Nah, Casval gets through life by lying to everyone around him and pretending to be who he thinks people want him to be. He's no more honest and sincere in Zeta than he was in MSG, he's just pretending to be the AEUG ace instead of the Zeon ace (and not killing his superiors this time).
I think it's Char's speech at Dakar near the end of Zeta that REALLY sets him up for CCA honestly.
Before that he was happy fading into the backround as an experienced but unremarkable soldier who fought for Spacenoid independence; "Quattro Bajeena, nothing more, nothing less". He didn't WANT to take up a major leadership position, and he spends much of Zeta avoiding direct authority like that; he only ever became Char Aznable to avenge his parents and he'd already done that.
After the near-massacre of the AEUG at the Battle of Gryps, an event which preceded the loss of most of his friends and acquaintances and left the kid he's been mentoring and arguably had the closest connection to a mental invalid he was probably strongly embittered, especially considering he saw Haman (a woman he once knew) having so twisted his father's ideals into a continuing justification for more war.
After the Neo Zeon War he basically had two choices; fight for the Federation (which he'd basically spent his life NOT doing in one way or another) or try to use his authority to unite Zeon.
At this point he's likely an embittered man; everything he ever fought for (his parents death, Zeon independence, the girl he fell in love with, even things as simple as his allies and friends) have ALL turned to shit, which might explain how he focuses on the last unresolved thing in his life, his complicated rivalry with Amuro Ray.
Given how he even forwarded Londo Bell plans for the psychoframe tech (when previously he made damn good use of advantages he had) it might not be an exaggeration to say he was looking for one last fight before dying and it was all an excuse for him.
You are a literal retard.
At the end of Zeta Char mulls over the possibility of forcing all of humanity into newtypes after Dr. Hasan examines Rosamia and gives the AEUG a report. Dr. Hasan disagrees and tells him to simply wait, but Char insists upon it, saying that the Earth will be destroyed while he waits.
In the end Scirocco appropriately calls Char out on wanting to have the entire world in his grasp, which Haman agrees with and offers for him to join her in reforming the Zabi family monarchy. Quattro refutes Scirocco's claim, but the significance is that Quattro is simply a character, a facade for two shadows, Char Aznable and Casval Rem Deikun. He literally stands on a fucking theater stage, with two shadows behind him. It's so blatantly obvious it's insane that people don't comprehend it.
CCA is about Char assuming the roles of both Char Aznable and Casval Rem Deikun, and trying to realize his father's ideals as Char, ironically enough to accomplish Quattro's goal of preserving the Earth.
There's also the drinking scene, which is clearly referenced in CCA.
>He literally stands on a fucking theater stage, with two shadows behind him. It's so blatantly obvious it's insane that people don't comprehend it.
I really think that moment is key.
He seemed more or less content to be Quattro Bajeena and avoid being important before then, but after forced to take charge he basically just goes "fuck it, I might as well go the distance with this".
Problem is he's not such a great human being; an excellent soldier maybe and a good friend, but all he ever really knows how to do is fight. He's a walking example of why Newtypes aren't necessarily superior people at all.
Yeah, I have no idea how people miss out that 80% of conversations between Char and Amuro in Zeta had a sort of sting under it. Kinda passive aggressive sort of bite that lurks under their interaction. They may be more chill in each other's company in Zeta, but they sure as hell aren't friendly.
Seriously, CCA is the logical end to it.
Char was always, in some way or another, trying to live up to his family name.
After killing the Zabis to avenge his father, he wanted to do something positive, and he felt championning the spacenoid/newtype cause (which he started in MSG) was the way to do this.
In that sense, AEUG is not a change in character at all, just a maturing.
Now, by the time of CCA, hes matured to the point of bitterness. For all his efforts, Earth is still going to shit, spacenoids are second rate citizens, colonies are being bulloed, the Federation is corrupt, and none of the "good guys" are fighting it. So he takes it upon himself to drag humanity, kicking and screaming, into their future as newtypes and spacenoids.
He's the hero we deserved. Mommy/little girl issues aside.
I disagree with the second point. I feel Amuro still hasnt matured by Zeta, as Char points out somewhat in his famous "I came here to laugh at you" speech.
That whole dialogue is basically Char telling Amuro to get his head out of his ass and stop bitching about the One Year War.
Of course, Char does turn out to be pretty butthurt too, but I think that only comes out because he grows really embittered towards the Feds by CCA
I think it's less that he's blinded by alliegance and more that he is finally 100% aware that you can only change the world when it WANTS to change.
He never rose above the rank of Lieutenant his whole career, one of his oldest friends Bright was always stuck as a Captain of a single ship, he was put effectively on house arrest after the OYW and when they finally got enough clout to put together Londo Bell it's critically underfunded and undermanned.
Amuro RECOGNIZES the Federation is hardly a perfect government (technically he fought against them as an AEUG/Karaba member) but Char's "solution" would result in the loss of over half the human race, which is a price he deems unaccaptable in the end, and frankly I'm not sure I disagree.
Char believes destroying the Federation and removing humanity from Earth will force people into space and help them become Newtypes, which might even be true.
Except we see as the Federation slowly collapses into ineffectuality anyway on it's OWN that no era of peace starts, and it's proven over and over and over that not only are Newtypes still extremely rare (Seabook in F91 had never even heard of one before) suggesting they're less "human evolution" and more "freak of nature", but also that Newtypes aren't any better or worse then anyone else and can be as petty, selfish, greedy, and callous as Oldtypes are.
So basically Char's plan would end in the loss of billions of lives on the HOPE that whatever comes next is better, which leads me to think either he's bitter enough to not care anymore or it's all an elaborate excuse to find a reason to fight again, hopefully with his lifelong rival.
That's a good point. Maybe a better way to describe Amuro at that point then is not that he's matured and more that he's become apathetic. I admit it's been a while since I've watched Zeta, but he seemed a lot more chill than he was in 0079, so maybe I mistook that for maturity.
It's a bit of both.
Amuro is less whiny in Zeta but a lot more quietly mopey, and several people pointed out that if he WANTED to escape from his virtual imprisonment and make a difference again then he COULD, which is sort of proven because he literally goes and does just that.
He was just wallowing in self-pity basically, hoping that the war would just go away since in his eyes his part in it was already over and done.
That sounds about right. I should probably go back and watch these scenes one of these days because I feel like there's a lot of subtext I missed.
It'd probably be the movie versions since I don't really have the energy to go through 50-ish episode shows more than once in close proximity.
They cut a lot of stuff out of the movies, but I still like A New Translation a lot.
It's less obviously fettered by Timono's depressive tendencies and Kamille while still initially a hothead seems less of a hugely unstable kid who just flips out at the slightest thing.
Notably there's a lot less people getting beaten up for no reason at all which sort of suggests to me all the "everyone gets their shit smacked!" in the show is more of a result of the author's mindset at the time, especially later on when Scirocco is effectively a stand-in for the guy Timono worked with who totally ended up marrying the woman he was in a relationship with at the time.
Also it manages to make Jerid look even MORE pathetic, which is pretty fucking hilarious. In the original series Jerid becomes Kamille's rival almost by accident as they keep killing each other's loved ones, and even then Kamille keeps thrashing him in fights. In the films he just comes off as some random dude who keeps trying to kill Kamille for reasons he doesn't quite understand.
AEUG aka Anti-Earth
It's not too much of a stretch, he tried a more relatively peaceful approach in Zeta and all it did was abolish the Titans, not improve the colony politics.
Thanks anon, that was an interesting read. Bright is one of my favorite characters in UC stuff, so it's neat to see stuff from his perspective.
>Bright leaves the building and regrets how he could not ride the rainbow with the newtypes.
Bright... had a hard life.
He was being mopey for sure, but let's not forget that the guy was showing clear signs of post-traumatic stress and depression.
It's not like he was just being a brat. The guy had a rough time and the time gap between MSG and Z wasn't kind to him psychologically.
> clear signs of post-traumatic stress and depression
This is the one thing that impressed me about Zeta. It was a nice touch to actually show the aftermath of the character. Just because he's become the legendary pilot of the white devil doesn't mean it's all hookers and blowjobs for a hero. It's nice that the story went on to show that just because the war was over doesn't mean that the hero gets peace.
And it's for this reason that made me really annoyed about seed destiny.
>and it's proven over and over and over that not only are Newtypes still extremely rare
I never thought of that. Though Im not sure I agree with that. You dont need to ha e psychic energy surrounding your Gundam to be considered a Newtype. I think there are quite a few peope who were newtypes, just not powerful enough to really be obvious. I mean, even Katz is considered a newtype. And all of Judaus gang for that matter.
I think Char was banking on the fact that newtypes increased sense of empathy would make war very difficult for humanity to engage in. Youll also notice that, throughout UC, he constantly oppposes newtypes that love war, and those that abuse them as soldiers (Gihreb, Sciricco, Hamann).
Seems to me hes an idealist who genuinely believes that newtypes can be the future, but only if we stop making them kill each other. And i dont think thats wrong.
Whether or not killing Earth is a reasonable price to pay is a completely different conversation, of course.
>he constantly oppposes newtypes that love war, and those that abuse them as soldiers (Gihreb, Sciricco, Hamann).
You DID watch CCA, didn't you?
CCA is basically the end of a long chain of events that unless Bandai decides that they want more UCdollars we won't have explained.
>forgetting that the first thing independent Spacenoid nations do is kill other Spacenoids
>forgetting the Jupiter won't stop stirring shit up
>forgetting that char was wrong because the one who cam up with the Newtype theory, his dad, was a raving whackaloon
Charfags really are delusional.
>the first thing independent Spacenoid nations do is kill other Spacenoids
The first thing every new state does is killing some of it's own citizens.
>the Jupiter won't stop stirring shit up
Earthnoid myth. Are you an earthnoid?
>Char was wrong because the one who cam up with the Newtype theory, his dad, was a raving whackaloon
Nah there's the interview that came a little after Unicorn that said FF was possesed by char's ghost and shit but Furuhashi deconfirmed a couple of months later bacause Nips were very mad about them being dead,so he backpedaled by saying that only because their ghost showed up it dosen't mean that they're dead.And do you really think that Bandai is going to leet anyone kill ther chicken of the golden eggs?
Also what does this have to do with Sunrise doing some OVAS or Manga about what happened between ZZ and CCA.
>Not everyone is a diehard Gundam fan who sees every single series.
>They wanted to aim something at as broad an audience as possible.
So... by "aiming" broader, they made a movie, thay you can't possibly understand, unless you watched the FIRST gundam series, from 1979?
Yeah, right. Not made for diehard fans
Because CCA Char makes more sense if you've watched Zeta, yes you COULD skip Zeta, but there is no reason to, because both Amuro and Char have tons of character development that is relevant to CCA. MSG-Zeta-CCA are a continuous meta-story, with ZZ being a side story thrown in. Don't listen to the retards who tell you otherwise.
Because he fucked off to Jupiter after ZZ and CCA was only shortly after that. Even if he wanted to help he probably couldn't get back in time, seeing as the trip takes five years, if I remember correctly.
You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
He pretty much just said "fuck it" by CCA. Recall he was one patient motherfucker during Zeta and all of ZZ. And it all went to shit.
more people should have pointed out that this is s troll thread. there is no reason why it can't be explained. there is nothing confusing about a celebrity and war hero, or anyone else for that matter, making contradictory decisions over arguably the most hectic 15 years in human history.
>we won't have explained.
But it is explained.
Look at all the posts in this thread that have acknowledged a continuity in his behavior and ideology. He did change, yes.But he changed in a way that seemed natural if somewhat unpleasant and pitiful.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Char's actions are justified or "sane" (unless I missed a post), just that his behavior didn't come out of nowhere. It's hinted at throughout Zeta.
every fucking time
every fucking CCA thread
every time some jackassed bitch claims OMG CHAR DOESNT MAKE SENSE IN CCA WADAFUK
actually watch any gundam
and the other eternal constant of CCA threads is this fucking jackass
the "how much of this series can I skip and still go straight to CCA so I can say how shit it is after" guy
why do you care so fucking much about CCA if you don't actually watch all of UC? What's the point? Is there that much hype built up around this movie that I just never noticed? Just watch the fucking shows you bitch
This interesting thing is that it's not even like MSG and Zeta Gundam are considered inferior works or anything.
They're really great shows. And chances are if you're interested in Char's Counterattack you'd be interested in those shows anyway. Besides, CCA isn't all that interesting without the buildup.
Anyone can explain it if they actually watch both shows and the movie. What inevitably is people not paying attention to any of the dialogue or the actual situations occurring in the show. It's the same reason why people don't understand what happens in Evangelion; You niggers try passively viewing it instead of actively engaging in it and storing away the information presented.
You know what, I blame how the english dvds of the MSG movie trilogy and CCA were bundled together.
Just them, and Miller's Report iirc.
So I imagine a lot of people in North America just watched the MSG movies and then CCA, which I guess contributes to some of the other-UC-skipping. Obviously doesn't account for all of it, and the dvd's been out of print for a while but /m/'s been around the block a couple times and I guess what I'm getting at is it could send the wrong impression.
>none of /m/ knows how the haro bowling ball fell on char's head turning him into Quattro
>he literally does not think he's Char anymore
>same thing happens 2 weeks before CCA changing him back
>builds Sazabi out of Tem Ray's scrap yard
>time to fuck shit up
No he doesn't, go watch the movie again. He and Amuro talk about both the political and personal disagreements and issues they have, it is clear that Char is in it for both aspects of his life, not just one of them.
CCA makes so much more sense now.
It still suffers from pacing problems. The freakin' thing starts in the middle of a battle that Char's winning with no explanation. Amuro begins explaining things that led to the events as they're happening. Mirai appears for five seconds. Suddenly we're in space again and Char is doing things.
Do you see the problem? I might give it a rewatch now, but I still think it has massive issues with how the story actually plays out. At least the motives behind (arguably) the best character in all of UC make more sense now.
I've never found this to be a problem, they explain things as they go and by the end you ought to understand everything that has been presented to you. Due to time constraints the whole story was not fit in, to me it seems like we started on what would have been the 2nd episode of a 6 episode OVA.But really all we missed was Char actually setting out that first operation and maybe some back story on how he got Neo Zeon together in the first place.
I dunno, it felt rushed to me. I know it'll never happen, but a remastered version that isn't like a kid explaining the story of the movie would be great. What we have now is like a first draft of CCA.
How can one poster be so confused?
/m/ is divided between preferring Zeta over ZZ and vice versa. It comes out at different times. There are more people in between who like both than one would be lead to believe, but nobody starts threads to comment how they liked both, only that they liked one better.
At the end of the day, /m/ really likes mecha, and even if they recognize some shows as being bad, many can find some redeeming qualities. Thing is you always see the loud mouthed spergs because our board is so damned small.
How is it even going to be possible to prove to you? If I were to find a transcript somewhere, you'd say I made the translation up since you don't know Japanese anyway.
So I'm just not gonna bother. Believe what you want. I was in your situation once, though, so I know it's annoying when available subs suck. I don't blame you for wanting to preserve the illusion that this isn't the case.
Although I guess you could look at it like this:
A) Char says a blatantly wrong and nonsensical line in response to Haman claiming he betrayed her.
B) It's a mistranslation and what Char actually says, that he's never betrayed her specifically, makes perfect sense in regards to Haman's accusation.
Maybe it's just me, but B) seems like a much more logical option.