Which makes more "sense," tanks that can transform into mechs or fighter jets that can transform into mechs?
Tank-mechs because they're already on the ground.
There is NO reason a pilot would ever want to be on the ground and walking when he could be in the air and blazing past at mach 3
That said, plane-mechs are much cooler.
I don't give a shit which makes more sense, I like the ones that look cool.
Hell, how about a mech which is formed of four vehicles, one of which is a jet, a human, and a fancy helmet and mask, and the other three of which are tanks, animals, and humans? That sounds like a great idea to me!
Grungust's flight form isn't exactly a fighter jet, it's too bulky and heavy and it doesn't really do speed all that well.
Honestly, in 0079 the whole reason they developed MS was for anti-ship warfare. ...but they're in space! Couldn't they just strap maneuvering thrusters and loads of guns onto Ball and just use that?
>All these planefags
Fuck you guys, tanks are the coolest
What about mechs that can transform into planes and are basically TANKS in both modes?
Planes are constructed of very thin and light materials so that they can actually fly. In other words, making a mech/plane is pretty hilariously illogical because the mech would have to be made out of paper for the plane mode to function properly aside for space use. Mechs that turn into tanks however, make some sense. There's the advantage of changing your height and having multiple means to traverse the ground. For example, going tank mode would be better for ground that would sink in if you were to use the legs. But then the legs could be used to get over bumpy, obstacle littered terrain.
>There is NO reason a pilot would ever want to be on the ground and walking when he could be in the air and blazing past at mach 3
What if you need to assault an enemy ship that is built on a scale of giants compared to humans?
Jesus, if it's that ugly, no, I'll just stick with Jet-Mechs.
No amount of armor or land-traverse ability is worth ugliness.
I'd rather cut out the mech and plane part.
Why the fuck would you want a mecha to transform into a plane or a tank? The whole fucking appeal of a mecha is that it's anthropomorphic. Tanks and planes are far more mundane.
It also makes no sense to have them transform, it'd be impractical.
>Why the fuck would you want a mecha to transform into a plane or a tank?
>a tiger face is a way cooler idea than a tank
First one I thought of (from Gotcha Force)
Specifically the variant without the humanoid robot transformation, but this picture does a good job of illustrating my point.
If it's good enough for the Germans, it's good enough for me.
It's not that shell-traps don't exist, it's that the ammo that makes shell-traps a thing isn't used anymore.
If you want to penetrate modern tank armor with another tank, you better be using Kenetic Penetrators or HEAT.
Neither really "bounces". to the point that modern tank designers have to worry about shell-traps.
>ROBOTS IN DISGUIZZZZZE
That was the thing I never understood about transformers. Why would you take something that's cool (a mecha) and have it transform into things that aren't cool (literally anything besides a mecha)?
Makes no sense.
The idea that the mundane can become something cool like a giant fighting robot with some form of personhood.
That and the process of transformation, the very thing that makes them go from a-b, speaks to young boys and adult males as well.
Ever just sat down and transformed one of tose toys? Like not one of those dissapointing pieces of crap toys that inevitably made it's way into the g1 and g2 lines, but a good one.
Speaks to the engineer and puzzle solver and driven problem solver in all men.
And, the idea that a mecha, can turn into something cooler, or that mecha can fuse with other mecha and make a super mecha?
>In the sixties however long-rod penetrators were introduced, projectiles that are both very elongated and very dense in mass. Hitting a sloped thick homogeneous plates such a long-rod penetrator will, after initial penetration into the armour's LOS thickness, bend toward the armour's normal thickness and take a path with a length between the armour's LOS and normal thicknesses.
TL;DR the rod normalizes its angle itself on impact making sloped armour less effective
>Sloped armour became very much the fashion after World War II, its most pure expression being perhaps the British Chieftain. However, the latest main battle tanks use perforated and composite armour, which attempts to deform and abrade a penetrator rather than deflecting it, as deflecting a long rod penetrator is so difficult. These tanks have a more blocky appearance. Examples include the Leopard 2 and M1 Abrams. An exception is the Israeli Merkava
The thing is, the stated benefit of AMBAC could be done much more simply. Just put a layer in the Ball's armour where there's a rotating ring, and put a weight that moves freely along the ring. Bingo, instant centre-of-mass rotation, with no pesky limbs to be shot off. AMBAC is just another contrivance used to justify an impractical machine.
I'm not complaining, I like giant robot fights as much as the next guy, but it's not feasible in boring old reality.
Thank you for the insight, that conversation makes sense.
It just seemed like an indented space like the "under-turret cavity" (>>12344031) is a very bad idea to have in front of a tank to me, so I wasn't sure if this was something I hadn't picked up on.
What they were thinking was "OH JESUS CHRIST WE'VE GOT TO DO A LAND WAY NOW OH FUCKING HELL FUCK FUCK FUCK." and shat that, the Dopp and the Gaw out in like a Month.
Even their Marine stuff had a better development time than their air stuff. That the Gaw was actually a pretty good design that could transport a squad of Mobile Suits with a decent speed and had good armour was fucking Billion to One miracle.
Seriously, it boggles the mind how quickly they went from blueprint to full production with their air units and the Magellan. So it's no suprise some of the stuff is completely retarded.
The cannon would be more likely to make it stall than it would be to make it spin out.
Since the Magella pod is frequently shown as 'hovering' away from the tank body as opposed to taking off, it's supposed to have VTOL capabilities. Frankly speaking, all the pod needs is the ability to fly stably and enough forward thrust to maintain a forward speed when firing the gun so that it doesn't fall out of the sky. While 175mm sounds like a lot, how much force is that compared to a sustained firing of an A-10's gun?
>hurr i am plane guise
You're either ignorant or you have serious shit taste if you think that looks cooler than any Valkyrie.
NOW make way for the coolest jetmech.
What about mechs that are treated, for all intents and purposes, as walking tanks? (Well, for the first half of episodes atleast)
>implying robots that turn into tape decks aren't rad as hell
I think he's referring to this.
Is that thing a functioning tape deck?
>you're cruising your block like you do every saturday after cartoons
>wearing some weird cross between animal print and vector graphics in bright, fluorescent colors on a pocket ringer tshirt and ripped, acid washed, taper leg jeans
>for your kicks you've got velcro Air Jordans
>And on your shoulder, you've got your boom box
>weighing twenty pounds, it has dual cassette players, Dolby, and enough bass that your rear teeth are falling out
>twelve D batteries get you fifty minutes of music
>for those fifty minutes you are a god
That is what the hell a tape deck is.
It takes an extreme angle for a modern APFSDS round to not 'bite'.
I learned something today that I didn't know. Although it's worth noting that the M1 Abrams actually does have sloped armor on its turret, to reflect the fact that armor sloping is merely less effective, and not totally ineffectual.
Also, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, wouldn't the sloped armor also mean that the armor is going to be slightly thicker than it would be otherwise?
Well, not inherently. It's only that way because everyone gives their rods such an extreme point.
As long as the point touches first, the rod ain't bouncing. But if the "cone" behind the rod touches first, there's a high likelihood it will bounce.
>Also, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, wouldn't the sloped armor also mean that the armor is going to be slightly thicker than it would be otherwise?
It does, but armor thickness is no longer such an important factor as the material (chobham/dorchester, reactive armor tiles, etc)
The latest Macross fighters have absolutely ludicrous thrust to weight ratios. They could do it through brute force alone.
Macross does a ton of things that should result in the pilots getting squished. The transformation sequences alone have got to be incredibly uncomfortable considering how fast they happen. Especially so in the VF-25s because of all the crazy motions the cockpit has to make to fold away.
This is a universe with artificial gravity exists though, so you could just handwave it away as using that technology to cancel out the g-forces if you really wanted to. It's really just one of those suspension of disbelief things.
What about mechs that are literally tanks with legs?
Eighties show, Mobile Battalion DVORACK seems to be missing...one armored vehicle, one chopper, and one big frigging tank.
Why are helicopter mecha are so uncommon? Too silly looking?
Gerwalk is best mode and most practical (a little flip of the legs and arms and it's in fighter mode, whoopdy do)
Tank mode is more practical, but the transformation for those late Guntank type models like the Loto and R-44 is extremely simple. Basically mech mode to tank mode is sit down and done.
Technically speaking, Tank mechs are FAR more feasible, but a mech would fill a far different role from a tank, and in the real world, a mech would be small, and as such, so would the tank.
It ran on micro-sd, and it was way too flimsy on the insides to hold microsd's correctly, so it would skip songs sometimes or just plain not read the card, leading you to spend more time jamming it out and back in again.
He was still kinda big, and I don't think he had a belt clip but either way he's not as portable as any other mp3 you could get. So unless you're sitting at home and willing to find a micro-sd adapter and fiddle around until he actually played the song you wanted, you'd be better off getting any other version of him that didn't play music.
Just a general impression that helicopters are "Low-tech" to jet's "High-tech"
Which is really weird, because helicopters require just as much technology as jets do. Military helicopters especially can be pretty tech heavy.
Fun fact: The Ka-50 Blackshark, developed for the Russian military, has a fully-functioning ejection system. Since it's Russian, I'm guessing you can figure out how they circumvented the whole "ejecting into rotors" problem.
oh yeah, it's strictly for the novelty of a Soundwave that plays music, it's not a functional mp3 player for daily use
but actually making Soundwave play music is pretty fucking cool
Wait wait, spetnaz rotor blades?
Yeah. Like >>12358420 says they use an explosive to blow off the dual-rotor system allowing the ejection system to deploy safely.
Because obviously if you have to eject from the helicopter, the helicopter was fucked anyhow. Might as well just blow off the rotors and save the pilot.
It makes sense when you think about it, but there's a deliciously Russian quality to using explosives to make shit work. In fact, Russians have more examples of doing this, because apparently the Mig-21 "Fishbed" loaded the its first bullet via an explosive as well.
So really, it just seems like the Russians were challenging themselves to make as many things work via explosions as they possibly could.
No, no, I mean the "cone" that makes up the point. It will almost never hit before the point, but sometimes it does catch a curve at a super-extreme angle and that's when you get your rod-bounces.Rarely ever happens, but it's possible.
Let me try and draw it...
we need more helicopterbots as well as train bots. trainformers are underrated imo
>I'm not complaining, I like giant robot fights as much as the next guy, but it's not feasible in boring old reality.
Which is strange considering that planes didn't use to be considered "ahead", in a technical sense, of other machines.
Working on a tank back in those pre-1945 days put you just as much on the cutting edge of mechanical technology as working on a plane did.
Yeah, I'm always surprised by how much more emphasis the Americans put on the "Liberty" as the main American tank in the 1920's, rather than the more ubiquitous FT-17 models they had.
Probably because the Liberty was at least partly American design, while the other was French.
Doesn't mean tanks (Well, okay, tracked AFV in this case) won't fight back.
Now that Valkyries themselves are being designed with double-shoulder-cannons, I can't say tank-mechs have anything designwise going for them still.
It makes more "sense" for the Japs to be more into planemechs than tankmechs.
Japan never really was one for Tanks...
>Although it is said that the folding of the arms to the rear in flight mode is new and revolutionary, the method was first used by YMS-02 Union Blast, and later by both SVMS-01E Union Flag Graham Aker Custom and SVMS-01O Over Flag in their high speed flight mode.
So, this is one of the most advanced mobile suits that can transform and fly in whole gundam franchise <lets discuss atmospheric flight here only>, design wise at least.
And it looks, functions and flights like poor mans VF-0.
Gundam proportions always made transformative suits very awkward, at best.
Macross did a much better job by going for the lithe where Gundam went for the bulk.
Also, here's OP's pic for anyone who wants a better quality version of it.
And then they started adding bulk via FAST and armored packs. But as someone already mentioned it, mobile suit are primarily robots, valkiries are planes that can transform into the robots.There are designs in both franchises that are lovely if awkward.
>still no art for YF-24
At least there is YSFlight.
Which makes more "sense", Transformers or Macross?
Did you check out Warthunder's April Fool's mode today, OP?
Mech-Tanks. And it's a working mode.
>A Ka-52K crashed in southeast Moscow on 29 October 2013 during flight tests for future deployments on Russian Mistral-class amphibious assault ships. Preliminary investigations indicated that the source of the crash was due to a "malfunction of the ejector (seat) mechanism" which caused it to activate involuntarily.
The armor VF-25 is pretty much a flying tank with all that armor and weaponry.
>- Armament -
4 x fixed Mauler RÖV-127C coaxial 12.7mm beam guns (mounted center dorsal section in Fighter/GERWALK mode, becomes head turret in Battroid mode)
1 x Howard GU-17A new model 5-barrel 58mm gatling gun pod with retractable cover to provide air cooling for the barrels (mounted ventral fuselage in Fighter mode, in arm manipulator for GERWALK/Battroid modes)
1 x standard bulletproof (anti-projectile) shield (mounted center rear dorsal fuselage in Fighter mode, mounted on arm in GERWALK/Battroid modes)
2 x Remington ES-25A 25mm high-speed machine guns
or 2 x Mauler RÖV-25 25mm beam machine guns (mounted left/right of intakes in Fighter/GERWALK mode, on rotating hip mounts in Battroid mode)
1 x Ka-Bar OTEC AK/VF-M9 Assault Knife, 1.65m, super strong material reinforced by pin-point barrier system (mounted under left arm shield block)
1 x pin-point barrier system
4 x armored heat sinks (mounted two each on the right and left engines pods; includes built-in Phased array radar)
2 x Hachishuu Heavy Industries C-207 high-capacity capacitors to power beam guns, energy conversion armor and pin-point barrier system (mounted one inside frontal section of each booster pod)
4 x RÖV-22 22mm beam machineguns
2 x Otto/Sentinel 57mm anti-warship anti-air rapid-fire swiveling beam turrets with option of autonomous fire (capacitors mounted inside APS-25A/MF25 Armored pack)
Bombs & Missiles:
116 micro-missiles in 2 x HMM-5A Mobile Remington micro-missile CIWS launcher pods featuring 2 x micro-missile launcher pods each (40 mounted in two CIWS torso launcher pods; 76 mounted in two CIWS shoulder launcher pods)
128 micro-missiles in 4 x Remington Close-Range Micro-Missile Launcher Pods, Double-Loaded Type (64 mounted in four leg launchers; each launcher holds 2 loads of missiles for a total of 128 micro-missiles)
30 x 200mm anti-armor high-initial velocity rockets in 2 x Howard 15-tube launcher pods (mounted outboard in coverless launchers)
4 x outboard hardpoints for 4-8 large-size anti-ship reaction missiles
See, even for me, that's a bit much...
I'd prefer sticking with just the more modest hardpoint options.
Certainly not in WWII, but Post-1945? I'd have to disagree that Japan isn't "one for tanks"
Hell, the japanese are claiming to have one of the world's first 4th gen MBTs right now.
In terms of weight to thickness sloped armor is the same as flat.
Sloped armor usually allows you to cut some corners out, resulting is less armor material used but the same vital areas covered to teh same thickness
Key term there. South Koreans have the actual first.
If you've got a back made of metal, you might as well carry all you can, right?
Mecha are strictly better than tanks, so why would you ever want to transform into a tank?
It's like saying let's build a tank with rhomboidal tracks instead of bogie suspension.
There is the MLRS version, but he didn't post it.
>Mecha are strictly better than tanks, so why would you ever want to transform into a tank?
Superior strategic movement capability.
Yeah, sure, your average mech has great tactical mobility compared to a tank, but say you want to send that mech to the next town over to take place in a fight. It's probably much more efficient (time and fuel-wise) to have it travel on treads than to have it walk over.
Yep. And then there is Hildorlf, which is more of a artillery platform itself. And Guntank is..well, Guntank. One cannot really say that it is transformable suit.
But...what about ships?
I watched Macross Plus with a Marine pilot and he said that any type of transformation at combat speed would tear a plane apart. I explained that they were strengthened by magic alien tech. He said fine, they could do whatever the hell they wanted then.
So which is better transforming tank or plane?
The RTX-440 is sorta a transforming tankmech.
Yeah, Merkava's got room in the back, but it's less for carrying Infantry and more for picking up fellow tankers when their tank gets knocked out.
Certainly in a pinch you can use the Merkava as a make-shift battle-taxi, but you ain't going to do much with just three Inantrymen. (Merkava can hold six in its passenger-storage, but that's not taking into account the needed space an Infantryman needs for all his shit.)