I want to say this, just to get it out there and off my damn chest. What the fuck is with this show? Seriously, what the fuck?
The plot does backflips in order to make Kira and co. appear as heroes. The gigantic holes in their logic you could drive a dump truck through, yet no one seems to have the braincells to do so. There's a goddamn reason why they get called out in every crossover game they are in, but the show just doesn't want to touch it. Or if it has to, it tries to do so quickly and move on. Is this the Japanese equivalent to Sonichu or some shit?
The you get to Shinn. Shinn should have been in a better Gundam show. The kid is an collage of various UC pilots, but he's supposed to be seen as the bad guy. It's part of this general sense of nastiness I've felt with Destiny, that it's better than UC Gundam because it's popular. The first SEED fucked up being an updated 0079 and ended up having the morality of an old-school super robot show. But it was popular and now Destiny is here to defend it and show me how shit UC Gundam really was.
"Did you know UC pilots are willing to kill? They're monsters, unlike Kira (praise be his name)." Gag me. If Kira is willing to kill when necessary, he fails the no-kill rule. He ultimately chooses who lives and who dies based on the situation which, combined with his attitude, pisses me off at how self-righteous he has become.
Can anyone tell me what the cast has gone on to say post-Destiny? Was it Kira's English or Japanese VA who voiced dislike of how the series went.
What a coincidence! I watched Destiny last year.
What was your opinion on Durandal? Because for most of the show he was the only character who was making any kind of sense, until they pulled an eeeevil plan & superweapon out their asses and had him (and his associates) suddenly start acting bonkers in order to justify him as the villain. I canonly assume that Lacus put something in the show's water supply and that he managed to avoid drinking it until around episode 35. You say Shin should have been in a better gundam show? You're right, but so should Durandal.
You know what else is weird? It honestly seemed to me like the Archangel crew were being legit portrayed as dangerous radical terrorists (which they were) for most of the show, up until around that same point.
Barely /m/ outside of a sci-fi-ish setting and a side character who is a cyborg
But it's really fun with great action and the most based MC I've seen in a while
It's not hard to see what they wanted to do with him, but the execution was a mess. I wonder sometimes if he was really a member of the Clyne foundation who was tasked with fighting the EA on her behalf. Then, when the fighting is over, he was supposed to turn evil in order to pave the way to her being in power.
I like the evil chessmaster interpretation of Lacus.
>Was it Kira's English or Japanese VA who voiced dislike of how the series went.
That was English, Matt Hill who said he got more and more confused as the dubbing of the show went on and had no idea why anyone was doing what they were doing.
Kira's Japanese VA has been oddly silent on the matter and hasn't spoken about Kira once aside from dutifully reprising the role when need. Odd since he's the only major Seed VA not to say anything about Destiny negative or positive (though everyone was negative)
>It honestly seemed to me like the Archangel crew were being legit portrayed as dangerous radical terrorists (which they were) for most of the show, up until around that same point.
Not really. 23 was really the only point with Heine and the 10 or so random guys blown up but their 2nd intervention was clearly shown with Shinn being the evil one for wanting to attack them, and they were supposed to be shown as heroic in 32 in Berlin, with Stella blowing up enough civillians in that ep to make it clear Shinn was supposed to be seen as in the wrong for prioritizing saving her.
We're clearly supposed to feel bad for the Orb guys Shinn is fragging too. It doesn't really work, but I guess they figured writing it mainly for Japan, they'd feel sympathy for their not Japan countrymen dying while westerners might, much like how I doubt any overseas audiences give two shits about all the random American's blow up in Bayformers.
As far as Durandal he was clearly set up to be evil as far as episode 1 with the camera cutting to him making some dark looks when he thinks nobody's watching.
The problem is they spent so long fucking around they kind of forgot to show why he was evil, and suddenly had to overdo it once they realized the show was almost over. Almost all of the last 10 eps have an "Oshit we spent 2/3rds of the show fucking around and now we've gotta set up the final battle now!" feel to it.
As it is (and this has probably been discussed before) alot of the stuff with the Destiny Plan and Logos doesn't really hold up even with what the show says it does so it's a mess all around.
But they were clearly shooting for "Durandal=bad" from the start, even if they fucked up the execution.
Actually it's significantly different. Morosawa isn't writing it, and Fukuda isn't the director of CA, he's the chief creative something made up role to let him inject ideas while keeping him far away from the budget and management stuff that caused Destiny to be mostly clipsshows flashbacks and reused footage.
And to CA's credit, that means it doesn't have those problems from Destiny. It's not a very good show, but isn't quite the disaster Destiny was.
As mentioned. Hoshi's not said a word about Kira in Destiny at all. Either he doesn't want to piss off the guys that cast him as one of the most popular anime characters of all time, or Kira said so little in Destiny he honestly has no opinion.
Ishida said he's no idea why Athrun does anything he does in Destiny, can't understand why he'd ditch his friends to go to Minerva, but then not really like Minerva, but then object when Kira crashes battles, but then take Kira's side anyway etc. His English VA Sam Vincent concurs with this.
Suzumura says Shinn didn't turn out at all how they said he was when they'd cast him and SRW Z Shinn is more like what he was originally told to play, which I guess means he was told Shinn was gonna be the hero, and not Darth angryman. Shinn's English VA doesn't seem to care, presumably because the show was long done by the time he got to dub it so he knew what he was getting into.
Tanaka says she dislikes playing Lacus because Fukuda is always harping on her about how DEEEEP Lacus is supposed to sound, and playing Meer was much more fun. She doesn't think Lacus and her side were evil though. English Lacus doesn't agree, but English Lacus voices her entirely different anyway.
Sakamoto just said they gave all the VAs a hard time when recording.
Shindo hasn't gone on record as saying anything either, but there's been rumors.
The funny thing if you look in SEED's background is Orb itself kindda pisses on Japan too.
During the big ass wars that made the current powers Japan got punched in the dick by mother nature. The whole thing was fucked by big ass earthquakes, volcanic erruptions and tsunami's.
ORB was founded around this time by Japan's rich people who ditched the country and overtime it's pop increased due to war refugee's. Hell by the time SEED starts Japan is still rebuilding its ass.
>yet no one seems to have the braincells
>Assram didn't realize Durandal was a villain all along
I swaer to God, you could smell the hypocrisy of his words from 1 mile away, and yet Assram did jack shit.
>with Stella blowing up enough civillians in that ep to make it clear Shinn was supposed to be seen as in the wrong for prioritizing saving her.
I'd agree with you if they weren't doing the typical PROTAGONIST AND HIS CRAZY LADY IN A BIG DESTROYING MACHINE that they've done in at least 6-7 series prior.
Shinn was the closest in taking her out in the first place, the first thing he does when he shows up is swoop in for the fucking kill.
So how is Cross Ange. Is it at least decent?
Better than 00 at least.
>I'm gunna be all realistic n shit, portraying different factions sympathetically, acknowledging the wrongdoings of the heroes and putting strategy over power level shit
>Pfft fuck that, instead here's an evil globalist military dictatorship run by an evil superhuman elite
>And give random power-ups to the unquestionably heroic heroes when they need it most
>Oh and by the way our amazing hero becomes a natural superhuman by his own will
Really the only thing good about it is Tieria.
Cross Ange is like SEED if it had a sense of humor about how silly it was.
Yeah, they were shooting for that. The problem was making him seem far more reasonable than the 'heroes' until the eugenics thing.
>"Hey, guys? Maybe we shouldn't rush into a brutal genocidal war again."
>"Yeah, Athrun, I know it's dumb to have a body double of a teenage pop star order my country around, but they won't listen to anyone else that calls for reasonable response, so if that's what it takes I'll do it.
Durandal could have been either a great Vetinari style morally dubious realpolitik anti hero or an anti villain whose misleading life experiences led him to a warped solution, ironically undoing the peace he had already established in the process (guy managed to unite coordinators and naturals against a common foe, then fucked it up with his own plan).
They didn't specifically single out Destiny, more making fun of homolust between Kira and Athrun in general. Here's the episode if you want to listen:
Not just that. Members of the staff posted stuff on their blogs about the problems behind the scenes and the animators went against Fukuda's wishes and had Kira respond to Fllay's ghost. Then there's the fact that despite SEED/Destiny being such a hit Fukuda and his wife were out of work until recently (in Fukuda's case). Admittedly this was she couldn't hand in a script for the movie on time and he wouldn't let anyone else write it, but it took Fukuda how long to be attached to another project (HD Remasters don't count)?
But it's really fun with great action and the most based MC I've seen in a while
Even Negimafags hate this shit.
>he's the chief creative something made up role to let him inject ideas while keeping him far away from the budget and management stuff that caused Destiny to be mostly clipsshows flashbacks and reused footage.
But Cross Ange has all of that minus clipshows since the show is already low budget.
Fukuda said that he's pretty much incharge of everything in CA via twitter hence why he was butthurt over Momoka's VA spilling the beans about her fate on twitter and yes CA suffer the same problems as GSD.
>piss poor budget management
>MC's being infallible even when they're fucking wrong
It pretty much confirms what happened with GSD was mostly his own faul.
He would need to rebuild the army regardless if only to hold off another attack from the Earth Alliance so that in and of itself is not evidence of provocative action. I thought it was hypocritical for Cagalli to call him out for building new Mobile Suits when Orb and the EA were doing the exact same thing.
Exactly. Durandal is a somewhat slimy politician, but he's also (for a while) the sole voice of anything approaching reason in a world full of moronic easily led space racists and sanctimonious hypocrites.
And he was proven totally right that he'd need one, given how the EA immediately grabbed for the nuclear option at the first excuse. Yes he was ignoring the treaty, but then so was the foreign power that threatened his country. It's politics.
On a side note, was the three ship alliance a signatory of the treaty that ended the war? I ask because their holding onto the Freedom would count as a war crime, since it was a nuclear weapon.
I would build my army too, but you have to admit that Assram not smelling Durandal's bullshit from the first day they met is the most unbelievable part of his character derailment.
He is a veteran for fuck's sake, not a naive children.
THAT's the thing Athrun does in Destiny that derails his character?
I think >>12538921 put it well:
>he'd ditch his friends to go to Minerva, but then not really like Minerva, but then object when Kira crashes battles, but then take Kira's side anyway etc.
I can't really compare her to the Japanese version since I didn't actually watch the Japanese after seeing a sample of it where everyone sounded like hamsters... Which was probably an intentional distortion to fool Youtube autotrackers, but put me off the show's original voicework anyway..
>with Stella blowing up enough civillians in that ep to make it clear Shinn was supposed to be seen as in the wrong for prioritizing saving her.
>>with Stella blowing up enough civillians in that ep to make it clear Shinn was supposed to be seen as in the wrong for prioritizing saving her.
>I'd agree with you if they weren't doing the typical PROTAGONIST AND HIS CRAZY LADY IN A BIG DESTROYING MACHINE that they've done in at least 6-7 series prior.
I mean She IS basically Four, Rosamia, and Purus 1&2 rolled into one.from what I've been able to gather.
Though I guess Fukuda hates people using that story arc?
>>"Yeah, Athrun, I know it's dumb to have a body double of a teenage pop star order my country around, but they won't listen to anyone else that calls for reasonable response, so if that's what it takes I'll do it.
SEEDverse imported its civilians from marvel 616, it's the only fucking explanation.
And regard the part about Athrun being a veteran, his fights with Kira were completely bullshit, like him getting his mobile completely dismembered in a single slash!
>SEEDverse imported its civilians from marvel 616, it's the only fucking explanation.
Is it that bad?
>like him getting his mobile completely dismembered in a single slash!
I remember thinking that Kira must have taken the Bloody Mess perk, since that'd be the only explanation for all of the limbs spontaneously flying off Athrun's mobile suit after Kira slashes off one.
That's actually the start of Athrun's derailment, leading him into his senseless confused arc.
Had he just said "Sorry Chairman, but I walked away from Zaft a long time ago. I wanted to stop this before it started but I'm not taking sides in this old war again" turned around and went back to Earth and called Kira to pick him up it could have avoided all that, been truer to his character, and Savior could have gone to someone that would have actually wanted it.
Well that or Durandal just has him shot or throws his ass in jail because he's not letting Lacus have her second knight back that easy. But either way.
>I thought it was hypocritical for Cagalli to call him out for building new Mobile Suits when Orb and the EA were doing the exact same thing.
Orb only tweaked their existing MS deigns to have a flight transformation. Durandal had several new variations of grunts for all terrians including ground and water, 5 Gundams, and a new battleship.
There's holding off an inevitable attack in Plant's space and there's looking like he's prepping for an invasion of Earth, which is kind of what he was doing. He can't really claim he had no intentions of doing anything but defending Plant while building something like Abyss.
And Athrun forgetting his character development and spending the whole season waffling had a knock on effect on Shin, who was deprived of the mentor character his archetype needed.
Know who would've been a good fit for that actually? Yzak. He's very similar to Shin, and went through pretty much the same sort of arc (done properly). He sought power to protect his own and avenge injustice, lost sight of his original goal once he got that power, then got carried away by his temper and perpetuated atrocity, only to realise after the fact and learn a harsh lesson from it.
Prepping for an invasion of Earth is necessary to protect the plants, since in the event of a war Blue Cosmos could just merrily build up and send out forces as much as they wanted unless their industrial ability to wage war was ceased. And it may be worth noting that when ZAFT did head back to earth they were by all accounts pretty reasonable, didn't use excessive force, sought to avoid harm to civilians and were generally coming off as the better faction. Now, whether this was intentional or another screw up on the part of the writers is something I don't know.
>On a side note, was the three ship alliance a signatory of the treaty that ended the war? I ask because their holding onto the Freedom would count as a war crime, since it was a nuclear weapon.
TSA was completely defunct aside from stashing their surviving weapons away just in case so no. Not really. They'd only be breaking it if they were actually deploying Freedom in combat capacity in the name of the TSA or some other military which they didn't do until the war had already restarted and the treaty was out the window.
While true, it also kills the moral highground Durandal claims, since he was gearing up for war just as hard as EA was.
Invasion of Earth is invasion of Earth, even if it's to protect his people. He can't claim to be a totally peaceful guy like he says he is.
I'm seeing Destiny's plot on some Dynasty Warrior game and it's super forced how Shinn starts being a dick all of a sudden and now poor Athrun and Kira are such good guys despite Kira murdering Stella for nothing after she almost stopped.
Was it that bad on the actual show? Game's even forcing me to use Kira when I wanted to play as the Destiny.
That's pretty much exactly how it goes in show yes.
Though as mentioned above you feel less sympathy for Stella and view it less like murder and more Kira putting her down like the crazy bitch she is when you see her actually blowing up a city and not just a DW map.
If you seek peace then prepare for war.
Being "totally peaceful" in SEED would be insane, since the people in SEED are insane, and the fact that the government of the EA is rife with members of a genocidal coordinator-hate group that can and will deploy nuclear weapons against civilian populations means that a conflict with them like that was an inevitability. Sure, peace without war would be nice, but it was never going to happen with Blue Cosmos around. Durandal might be able to keep his own people in check (albeit through Meer, cine they'd rather listen to a teen pop singer than the representative they elected), but he has no opposite number groundside. So hi ho hi ho off to war ZAFT goes.
We get it /x/cerpt. You are forever upset Shinn didn't become the second coming of Kamille like you wanted.
For the love of god though, stop constantly chiming in with this "me too!" bullshit.
Upgrading their MS while rebuilding their forces, GINNs and CGUEs were outdated by the time the war ended and they knew all too well how effective Gundams and Archangel class warships are so they would be stupid not to build some of their own. Also ZAFT has terrestrial bases and their own naval forces so making something like the Abyss is not unusual. Don't forget that the Junius Seven Treaty limits the number of Mobile Suits and warships they may have and ZAFT never had a large fighting force to begin with so they had to make up for that with making better, more advanced weapons than the other guy to have an edge, so as long as they stay within the boundaries of the treaty they are doing nothing wrong.
>Gundams and Archangel class warships are so they would be stupid not to build some of their own
And yet ironically the only reason they ran into Gundam related trouble for half the series is because Zaft built them and let them get stolen.
Otherwise the forces EA actually built themselves, Destroy aside (which might have been reverse Engineered from the stolen Zaft's, who knows, they never explain where it came from).
So Durandal's preperations bit him in the ass hard.
Yeah. Kira doesn't have to say shit, he's just Cagalli's minion. She annouced their intentions. She could have been more willing to work with the people there maybe, but Kira's not this random renagade shooting at everyone for no reason. They know why he's there. They may not like it, but they know.
Well, the 3 gundams did, for all they accomplished (not much). I'd say on the balance of things the entire rest of the military he built up served the Plants splendidly.
I believe Cagalli was actually on his case about him ignoring the treaty...but then, the treaty limits military production by economy/industry, which naturally puts the smaller Plants at a huge disadvantage compared to their only threat.
>Well, the 3 gundams did, for all they accomplished (not much)
If they weren't stolen they wouldn't have caused interferance in the Junius Seven drop and Minerva trying to stop it, Minerva wouldn't have been delayed because they were chasing them and the 3 Gundam's would have been on Zaft's side stopping the rebels.
I dare say the theft of the Gundam's stopped them from preventing the war's initial outbreak entirely.
>I believe Cagalli was actually on his case about him ignoring the treaty
She was on his case for using Orb tech he only acquired by taking in refugee coordinators that worked on it back in Orb, notably the VPS armor the second stages used. And she has a good point. That's an Orb military secret and random workers aren't allowed to give it away to a foreign power just because they moved there.
Durandal deflects the question by saying they needed work, but he's actually in the wrong there politically. Cagalli gets so upset by the outbreak of the fighting and Shinn's bitching at her though that she doesn't bring it up again.
I don't think they made enough of a difference. The rebels were enough to delay the operation to destroy the colony, any delay would mean that at least some debris would get through and any debris getting through would be sufficient casus belli for Blue Cosmos to have their war. The stolen gundams may have contributed, but I reckon that all they did was make a bad situation worse.
It still works though, much like how Lacus's speeches about nothing somehow inspire deep meaning in the people of Plant Talia and crew know their goal is to bail the Orb fleet out and prevent the fight as they say themselves. They think it's never going to work, and it's a dumb idea but they understand her none the less.
>Orb only tweaked their existing MS deigns to have a flight transformation.
Cagalli and ORB were also backing Terminal, the group that not only build mobile suits that violated the Junius Treaty, they were doing so with tech stolen from ZAFT. Not to mention the group has an element of defected ZAFT and EA members, who could have easily handed over military secrets.
What do you mean "American rules"? Treaties only count for those that sign them, and treaties generally explicitly mention only the signatories. There's a bunch of UN-backed global treaties that the US hasn't signed and has no interest in adhering to.
ORB was forbidden from giving either the EA or ZAFT any military technology, through shipments or aid. It's safe to assume that ORB did sign the treaty and then turned around to fund a group (which the TSA founded) who could act outside of that treaty.
Goddammit how many fucking times must we have this fucking thread? Always exactly the same: a legion of shinnfags whining that shinn didn't get to put his dick in their ass in exactly the way and pace they wanted to, and a bunch of bait-swallowing but well-intended anons who try to bring some reason to it all but are instead drowned in the whines of legion.
For the zillionth time.
Too bad Shin's barely been mentioned even in passing, and we're currently having a mild discussion about space politics. Maybe check the thread next time, save yourself the embarrassment.
I think that's the worst part. It's like they want Athrun to be the Char/Quattro of the series, but it's like they can't fucking decide if Athrun likes anyone on the Minerva or is frustrated having to deal with a bunch of brats.
Him and Shinn have these strange awkward arguments that go nowhere, and then Shinn comes off as upset that Athrun apparently jumped ship to the EA. Did he like him or not? Didn't he just finish deck you for doing your job?
I agree, if they're going to be using half the old cast anyway, they should have put Yzak on board.
I'm pretty sure that even if you're not a nation, you're still not allowed to go share military secrets with a large group of people with military power.
Imagine if small groups of armies from every country went to go start a bigger army on Antarctica, while everyone shares their secrets with one another. And then they start saying that they get to start using nukes because they aren't a natiion.
Well in effect, what you are describing might not be specifically illegal, just frowned upon. As far as I know, there is no war treaty, convention, or accord that forbids the use of nuclear weapons. It's just mainly taboo and the fear of nuclear reprisals that prevents its use in the first place.
But then if they had then they would have fucked up his character as well. Yzak's few moments in Destiny were one of the few things I liked about it, since he was both the same old grumpy jackass and clearly a new man at the same time, particularly in the scene in the graveyard where he gets unusually subdued and ruminates on how he felt when he realised he'd murdered innocent people because he'd lost his temper, was prepared to accept execution for it, only to have Durandal pull some strings to get him off the hook before laying out the fact that he could repent better by living and serving, and that his costly mistake would prevent him from ever making a call like that again.
It was, in fact, the only development of a recurring SEED character in Destiny that was any good.
>I'm pretty sure that even if you're not a nation, you're still not allowed to go share military secrets with a large group of people with military power.
Terminal was stealing technology from ZAFT and had members posted in every active faction. You think they gave a fuck about whether they were allowed to share secrets or not?
Yet another amusing oversight by the writers.
The villains are Logos, a secret conspiracy with its tendrils spread far and wide that counts several powerful or influential figures among its membership with access to very advanced weaponry and that engages in terrorist activities with the intent of securing absolute totalitarian control over the earth sphere.
The heroes are Terminal, a secret conspiracy with its tendrils spread far and wide that counts several powerful or influential figures among its membership with access to very advanced weaponry and that engages in terrorist activities with the intent of securing absolute totalitarian control over the earth sphere.
Out with the old...
None of that happened until the show was well underway, if Terminal even existed before Destiny. It just literally pops into existance sometime around episode 30 when I guess they realized they needed a way for Lacus to make SF and IJ. Especially since they'd earlier mentioned how tough it was gonna be for AA to go it alone with only their one remaining Gundam from the last war as their only main defense when they'd launched.
One of those factions destroyed cities because spaceracism, the other one destroyed superweapons in defense.
You really can't say Terminal was a terrorist faction. They only ever engaged in military activities against state military forces and always in defense of themselves or their allies.
> Terrrorist, a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.
> Terrorism, the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.