He's a consistent character; his attitude changes are due to the fact that over a decade passes between MSG and CCA. He goes from young, arrogant asshole driven by revenge to bitter, broken middle-aged misanthrope driven by a death wish. He comes across as completely pathetic even in his last moments of life. He lived and died a loser.
He's also one of my favorite UC characters for being so fucked up.
He's pretty consistent. In the original series he's getting revenge for Daddy's death and the corruption of his his vision for spacenoid independence by taking out the Zabis. Once he accomplishes that, he tries to keep Dad's dream alive the "right" way by joining the AEUG to fight against a genuinely oppressive Earth government. After the setbacks of Zeta and the return of a Zabi-style Zeon in ZZ, he becomes frustrated and out of patience by mankind's lack of progress as he sees it and decides he's going to make his dad's vision of human progress come into being by any means necessary in CCA. He does this by attempting to take Earth completely off the table as something to be fought over, jealously hoarded, and abused by humanity by rendering it uninhabitable to humans. At this point he doesn't particularly care if a lot of people will die or be displaced in the process, because he sees it as the greater good.
>>13304657 Origin sucks and isn't canon. The tragedy of Char's character and Zeon was supposed to be that they had the potential to be something that could have accomplished a lot of good but were ruined by greed, cycles of violence, hatred, and revenge. Making Char's dad an adulterous raving lunatic who wants to kill everyone on Earth or whatever the fuck to begin with ruins that. Char is somebody who has been ruined by an entire life of violence and hate, not someone who was destined for evil from childhood because he overheard his dad ranting and raving about Earth scum one night.
>>13303375 I actually liked that Char was impulsive and naive. Really made him human. After all, have you ever met anyone who's completely consistent? No, seriously, have you ever met someone who acts like a "well written" anime character?
> He's a consistent character; his attitude changes are due to the fact that over a decade passes between MSG and CCA
It is in my opinion it's down to more than just the length of time between series, it's also due to the different demands stories made upon Tomino and his own whim to some degree too. When Tomino originally envisaged 0079 Char's character arc was meant to be a cautionary tale regarding the folly of revenge/pride and so on, which is why in the original 52 episode plan he would become so obsessed with Amuro that he ends up enabling Gihren to wipe out the majority of the Federation even receiving a medal from him for it, with Gihren apparently knowing exactly who Char was and what this would mean to him, so basically using the medal to rub it in and become the sole power around before Amuro finally kills him. In that version Char was meant to help the White Base crew clear out A Boa A Qu on foot so that Amuro can reach Gihren, as a means of atonement on his part for helping Gihren so blindly and then be implied to die in the finale after helping Sayla.
The show was cancelled though and re-writes were done to try and wrap it up quickly and cleanly, so we got what is, on the whole, a much better end since Amuro is no longer the typical space hero who ends the war personally and Char doesn't learn the folly of revenge.
Several years later we get Zeta Gundam, which opens with Char and implies he is trying to become a better person, helping the AEUG fight the corrupted well...more corrupted Federation and so on. And Zeta Gundam is planned as a two part series because 0079 birthed so much demand, with a sequel series starting the week after Zeta ends. The original document for Zeta Part II (what became ZZ), which was probably written early in Zeta's production, has Char acting not as a villain, but as an anti-hero who uses dirtier methods to help the heroes cause, assassinating Haman and the heads of the EF while Judau inspires the majority of people to finally leave Earth before heading to Mars himself. Char in this is consistent with Quattro and wants what's best for the entire Earthsphere, even if he pursues that goal in a somewhat cynical and more practical manner than Judau. He's a lot more morally grey than CCA Amuro, because his methods are more understandable and it's harder to say he's a "bad guy" given what it results in.
We didn't get that either though, because part way through Zeta the plan changed and rather than having Zeta, then Zeta Part II either Tomino or Sunrise I've never been able to find out which decided they wanted a theatrical movie to wrap up the Amuro/Char rivalry, since it was one of the biggest aspects of 0079. Zeta Part II as is though was heavily dependent on Char being there, so that went through some big chances to allow for the movie. At this point Tomino seems to change his end goal for Char. In the original plan for both 0079 and Zeta/Zeta Part II he's ultimately a good person, even if he does bad things. In CCA though, Char becomes the villain. I would imagine it was simply to allow for easier story-telling, because if you have Char kill only the EF heads then Amuro killing him is a lot harder to defend given how shitty they are. It would also be harder to give it the kind of spectacular end that CCA has as is, since an asteroid is a lot bigger and more visually interesting than a bunch of suits in a boardroom or wherever.
Even after CCA was presumably decided though we still got Gaia Gear, where Tomino made Char through his clone the hero of a story for once.
My personal opinion is that Char is an inconsistent character, and it's mostly down to the different demands different productions required for the sake of a story. The most obvious sign of it is early Zeta, where Char helps Amuro get over the tragedy of Lalah in contrast to CCA Char, who has never gotten over her. All of those inconsistencies can be smoothed over with a little thought easily enough, but they're still there regardless. In the end those inconsistencies make Char a more interesting and compelling character, because they provide quite a lot of fertile ground for discussion if nothing else.
>The original document for Zeta Part II (what became ZZ), which was probably written early in Zeta's production, has Char acting not as a villain, but as an anti-hero who uses dirtier methods to help the heroes cause, assassinating Haman and the heads of the EF while Judau inspires the majority of people to finally leave Earth before heading to Mars himself. Char in this is consistent with Quattro and wants what's best for the entire Earthsphere, even if he pursues that goal in a somewhat cynical and more practical manner than Judau. He's a lot more morally grey than CCA Amuro, because his methods are more understandable and it's harder to say he's a "bad guy" given what it results in.
I don't have the link off-hand, and sadly the archive is down (for good?) so I'll have to go looking for it later. If you have a Something Awful forum account though, check the Gundam thread on the Vegeta forum: about two years back I posted a link I'd gotten here with a summary of the original ZZ plot copied out a book with a link that had been posted here and asked if anyone could give a summary since I was interested in what it said. A guy there translated the lot of it and bought the book just to be sure it was real since he was interested himself.
I'll try and find the link myself and see if it can be viewed off Google or something, but it'll be a few hours.
CCA couldn't have been greenlit until halfway through ZZ. It's physically impossible. CCA premiered in March 12th, 1988. Even if it was greenlit the day the first episode of ZZ aired, which was January 31st, 1987, then it would only have a year to be written, animated, edited, marketed and released. Which is unrealistic. There's no way it happened half way, because that's only about 6 months to do it.
If you do think it was though, I'd love to see a source. It might help clarify who ordered it in the first place. It's normally attributed to Tomino, but I suspect it was Sunrise that ordered it and that Tomino simply complied, since it's his job and all. He didn't really seem all that eager to do more Gundam in the 80s, so it seems more likely to be on Sunrise.
High Streamers was released January 1st 1987, a month before ZZ started airing according to the only source I can see: the Wikia. And that includes a good chunk of the plot of Char's Counterattack by all accounts (I have not read it). I don't know for certain whether it was written before or after CCA got greenlit, Tomino may just have been hopeful regarding the story, but I would suspect it was after it was greenlit personally.
Well yea, of course it can, that episode would have aired only a few weeks before CCA actually premiered in theaters. The film should have been close to finished when the episode wad being animated. CCA came out only a month or so after AS finished in case you didn't know anon.
Ah shit, you're right. I was misreading "final" as "first" for some reason. Maybe CCA was planned part way through ZZ so. I stand corrected. The early plans for ZZ still show Char was planned to be an ally through Zeta and in to ZZ and not a villain until later in the production process regardless.
It really is. Char was portrayed as being completely sincere in the first half or more of Zeta, showed no sign of bitterness or anger towards Amuro even when in private. The worst you can say is that his hand tightened on the grip of the joystick in his cockpit when he first sees Amuro in Zeta. Which is a nothing reaction and completely understandable no matter how sincere he's being, because that old emnity is still going to be there as former enemies.
Zeta Part II was the original plan for ZZ and early Zeta would have had to account for it, regardless of when the plan for ZZ itself changed to reflect no Char. So Char in early Zeta is meant to be a guy who means exactly what he says, which is why it's so believable a scene - because there's nothing to indicate the character doesn't mean it.
Then point me to something that contradicts it in those scenes.
> which the show itself throws into question with Char's inability to get over the past
He never shows any inability to get over the past in Zeta itself though, only CCA.
> and also lying about it coming into play in other ways later on.
Again, that's only really CCA, not Zeta itself. And I'm talking about how Zeta portrays Char, not about how he is perceived taking the entire saga in to consideration, because CCA recasts those meetings with Amuro as him lying despite there being nothing to indicate it in Zeta itself and it running so counter to how CCA would indicate Char would act.
> What? It would have to be the other way around, and Zeta Part II never came into fruition.
What? I've no idea what you think I said, but your statement makes no sense. When early Zeta was being produced Tomino had a plan in mind for it's sequel series, Zeta Part II, that called for Char to be sincere in his desire to help the entire Earthsphere and to be over Lalah. A good chunk of Zeta is produced with this plan in mind, but then things change from Zeta Part II to ZZ at some point during production, presumably to account for Char's Counterattack, but possibly for it's own purposes at the time and Char's Counterattack is then written with him having never gotten over Lalah at all. It's an inconsistency. It can be fluffed easily enough as him lying, but it was pretty clearly not meant to be the case at the time it was done.
>>13313358 >avoid leading I think that's because he didn't wanted to be like Jawaharlal Nehru. Nehru had to make compromises with the right wing of National Congress. The flaws of those compromises and tinkering reforms are seen even 68 years after the independence.
>>13313358 >Quattro persona He had signed in EFSF under that name, because nobody wants an extra attention while being the son of Zeon Deikun and a member of the secret organization in EFSF at the same time. >Earth He wanted to make it uninhabitable for a long time. One strike was supposed to kill the majority of EF elite and army commanders, break the economical bonds with the Earth and decentralize the EF loyalists. He chose an Axis drop because it would be cheap way of reaching the goal. He thought that he can beat Amuro and that their fight won't ruin the plan. Nobody knew about psychoframe resonance and psycho-field, not even the developer and Char's second in command.
>>13310707 >High Streamers was released January 1st 1987, a month before ZZ started airing according to the only source I can see: the Wikia. Wtf are you smoking? ZZ started airing March 1986. It ended in January 1987.
>>13310921 mahq indicates that CCA was planned during ZZ http://www.mahq.net/animation/gundam/zz/gzzmain.htm > Director Yoshiyuki Tomino's original plan for the series called for the return of Char, but the storyline was rewritten halfway through when he received the approval to make the Char's Counterattack film, which premiered in 1988.
Are you actually using MAHQ as a source? Mark Simmons does some work for there as well as for Banrise, but he is not a part of the staff for any of the anime and gets most of his knowledge from data books, bibles and so on. It's where he got the information regarding the original 52 episode plan for 0079 for instance. If MAHQ are saying that without some kind of source then I wouldn't take it as any kind of reliable source at all.
Even then, that blurb regarding ZZ has obviously been updated and changed over the years and I don't believe Mark Simmons does any work for them at all at the moment and hasn't with years to my knowledge. That blurb may just be some random contributor perpetuating something he heard off the internet.
>>13303797 I have no clue why people are surprised at his actions in CCA when ZZ Gundam had an ending that pretty much made everything he and the AEUG went through entirely pointless. It should seem obvious why he got so fed up with Earth's bullshit and felt like he needed to do something drastic to force them to change.
>>13310964 Char helping out Amuro in Zeta doesn't mean that he doesn't want to fight him to the death in a noble battle of equals. If you wanted to battle-to-the-death with the one enemy you've ever respected would you not help him get over his depression so that he would get into a fucking robot again?
>>13306182 >The most obvious sign of it is early Zeta, where Char helps Amuro get over the tragedy of Lalah in contrast to CCA Char, who has never gotten over her
I never thought that Char got over what happened with Lalah in Zeta, he was just pressing forward despite how much it still hurt him. He even told Amuro that he couldn't " feel Lalah" when he left the earth sphere, so he came back. Char was telling Amuro that despite the pain they still had work to do. Char simply decided at the end of it that the work he had to do was drop an asteroid on earth.
Just because Char had put it behind him enough to help Amuro and focus on the current conflict means that at the very end of his life he can't look back and think about what could've been? Apparently not.
>>13304706 >Making Char's dad an adulterous raving lunatic who wants to kill everyone on Earth or whatever the fuck to begin with ruins that. The original take on Zeon Zum Deikun was an enigma. All we knew about him were vague ideas about colonial independence and his martyrdom at the hands of the Zabis. The Origin turns him into a real human being, flawed and insane, not a saint.
>Char is somebody who has been ruined by an entire life of violence and hate, not someone who was destined for evil from childhood because he overheard his dad ranting and raving about Earth scum one night. Oh, boo hoo, poor Casval, he's a victim stuck in the middle of things he had no control over and The Origin turned him into a baddie. Fuck that shit. All his actions are of his own doing, both in the series and The Origin. And when you look at his character closely, you'll see Char for what he really is. A psychopath:
>Glibness/superficial charm >Grandiose sense of self-worth >Pathological lying >Cunning/manipulative >Lack of remorse or guilt >Emotionally shallow >Callous/lack of empathy >Failure to accept responsibility for own actions >Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom >Poor behavioral controls >Early behavioral problems >Juvenile delinquency >Criminal versatility
I'd say he's more likely to be a sociopath than a psychopath, since sociopaths are thought to be a product of a bad environment as opposed to psychopaths, which tend to be born that way. Sociopaths are also known to occasionally be capable of forming real relationships and emotional connections, where psychopaths are completely incapable of doing anything but mimic them. Even in terms of behavior, sociopaths tend to be sloppy criminals, more opportunistic than meticulous planners a la psychopaths, which fits with his killings of Garma and Kycillia and seems to generally describe him better all round.
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