Even without the Moonlight Butterfly it'd win. All it needs to do is activate it's i-field, which blocks both physical and energy attacks and take out the Freedom at leisure. Or turn invisible and do it.
Those aren't novel abilities, those are just the stuff it does in show. If you go by the novel then it is literally invincible and the pilot could literally walk up to Freedom and beat it in to submission.
>>13460633 >Catol defeats several newer, more combat focused MS despite being piloted by useless wanker Mondo >Freedom with the son of god at the helm still gets destroyed by inferior MS It's true in a way
You see it arm-wrestle it and lose purely on arm strength and literally nothing else. Arm strength doesn't define a suit though, which is why the same suit that lost in a wrestling match can later push around a battleship - because it's thrusters play a big part in that particular feat. Something that a Zaku I is not capable of.
>>13460655 Yeah, and we also see the Turn A have part of itself get caved in by a punch from a SUMO, so it doesn't have strength or durability on its side. All it has is thruster strength. It's basically a higher tech Zudah.
It does however have an i-field that can stop both physical and energy rounds, nanomachines that can also eat both along with all technology, the ability to turn invisible and so on. So no, it doesn't just have a high thruster strength and is not just a higher tech Zudah.
It loses to the Zaku I/Borjarnon in one instance that happens to favor the Zaku I/Borjarnon, but is otherwise shown repeatedly to be a superior machine.
>>13460664 Based on how flimsy and weak the Turn A is compared to a replica of UC tech, maybe the case is just that it and the rest of CC's tech is just garbage. It'd be like saying Big Zam was the greatest machine developed during the OYW, because it could stop Beam Spray Gun shots and could destroy battleships with ease.
>>13460466 Both of them try to fight without killing, but Kira's better at it, so he would win. Loran wouldn't be likely to break out the Moonlight Butterfly against a single mobile suit like that, and that's assuming the Turn A is capable of that, since there were specific conditions that needed to be met before it could in the show.
Or maybe you're just blowing up on incident because you're a reactionary tired of the black history Turn-A being brought up as some kind of god machine in discussions and so can't separate it from the actual show's Turn-A?
>>13460683 Nah, it's just that the whole "Turn A is god tier" shtick is built on using non-canon materials coupled with the show and ignoring everything negative about it that was ever displayed in the actual show.
It is still shown to be versatile, highly destructive and quite strong in show though. You're just ignoring it and acting like the arm-wrestling match is the only important and defining moment for it. You're doing the opposite in reaction to the bullshit you don't like. Which is bullshit of it's own stripe. So congratulations on being as bad as the people you dislike.
Yes. I think maybe you need to watch it. There's an idea floating around that the Turn-A had the driver and the Turn-X had the nanomachines (or possibly the other way around, I can't recall) and both had to meet before either could use it. There's nothing about that in the show though, so I've no idea where it came from. Feel free to point out where the restrictions are mentioned if you think otherwise though.
>>13460700 You know what? Maybe I've been too hotheaded, I apologize.
Nevertheless, I still don't think the Turn A is the end-all be-all it's so often portrayed as. It's powerful, sure, but without knowing exactly how CC tech stacks up against UC tech, it's not easy to gauge just how strong it is. For all we know, WaDoms are about as durable and heavy as paper cranes.
Yes, there are Borjarnons running about getting their asses kicked, but they're being piloted by some of the most unskilled pilots in the franchise.
> Yes, there are Borjarnons running about getting their asses kicked, but they're being piloted by some of the most unskilled pilots in the franchise.
That's not going to make their weapons stronger or weaker though, and the Borjarnons and Kapools are generally shown to be completely ineffective against the units used by the Moonrace, to almost the same degree the bi-planes early in the show are.
I don't know that the Turn-A is the strongest suit in the franchise: the 00, Quant and Unicorn are all very strong in various ways, but they're about the only other units that really stand in the same league as the the Turn-A, even just confining it to stuff it displays in the show. Which in my opinion, is the only one worth talking about. The Black History thing can just fuck off. The Turn-A is structurally weak, but more than makes up for it in other ways.
>>13460719 >Loran shows more skill than Kira in my opinion, though neither are in the top tier of the franchise' pilots. What skill? Not to mention Kira's brain and body trumps that of the average human's.
>>13460769 Except Kira doesn't DO anything impressive on the show while Loran does, doesn't matter if for example Tomino said that Katz could have defeated CCA Amuro when thats simply not true from watching the show
Loran has to fight with no weapons for the first quarter or so of the show, and so constantly uses tricks when fighting enemies, like judo-flipping them around the place, karate-chopping their limbs off, using enemy suits as stepping stones when jumping around and so on. There's also little things like >>13460758 that display good skill on his part. Later in the show when he's fighting Merrybell he displays good skill too, given that she controls 3 units to his one, each using wired funnel weapons, which he evades deftly.
While Kira is a coordinator it comes off meaning little in show because it's almost exclusively an informed trait.
Also, having just watching the Zaku I/Borjarnon fight again, it's very much a nothing moment. The two clash, Loran comments that the Turn-A's reaction time is lower than expected (the head is still damaged from the SUMO's punch) and then he staggers back for a second before grabbing the Zaku's head. And then it's over, because Bruno and Jacop steal the supplies and Lily arrives, meaning Loran has the excuse he wanted to leave since he had no personal investment in the fight in the first place. Even the wrestling part of it is just a second or so of them pushing against each other as Loran tries to adjust for the fact the unit is under-performing due to damage. The real proof of it's physical frailty is the fact that the SUMO could damage it with a punch in the first place.
It isn't a problem with comprehension anon, it's a problem with veracity and the fact you're just wrong. The Turn-A has no weapons for roughly the first 10 or so episodes, then Sochie finds the beam sabers. He's given a beam rifle and shield a while after that, and then gets the nukes and the moonlight butterfly is found a while after that again. Once the beam sabers are found he very rarely fights unarmed again though.
Ah, but you see, Loran has a cunning plan. He's not going to throw the nukes at Kira, he's going to threaten to detonate them and kill himself. Kira will never allow it and stand down. It'll be like that bit in Blazing Saddles, only with nukes and mobile suits. It can't fail.
>>13460785 And don't forget, Kira has an advanced targeting system when in most AUs those things get fucked over by whatever magic particle present. Kira would be fucked with there were minovsky/GN particles around.
>>13460883 Sensors in SEED are designed to resist being fucked by N-Jammers, which do the same thing as Minovsky scattering. ZAFT warships carry N-Jammers onboard specifically to disrupt enemy sensors and communications.
Loran uses advanced sensors for targeting himself at least occasionally, though I imagine it's immune to the effects of minovsky particles given the level of tech advancement. It's never stated to be though, since I don't recall them coming up in the show at all, so who knows though I suppose.
Still, it's never shown to be something that Loran relies upon and he definitely can aim without it, even under weird conditions like >>13460758 so I'd say he has the advantage over Kira in that regard.
Well, they're obviously there since we know it's a far future UC show. Minovsky particles are only disruptive at sufficient density though, and since no-one ever talks about them in Turn-A they're presumably never encountered in density, so we have no idea if the Turns are capable to operating their targeting software and comms despite them at density or not.
>>13460932 >which later healed After what, a month? The animated canon repair system was a fucking joke. Sure, it would be handy in terms of preventing the need for regular maintenance, but when it takes that long just to straighten a bent moustache it really shouldn't even be brought up in terms of "who would win a fight".
>>13460466 Enemy pilot is distracted and confused by the attraction felt when seeing Laura through the cockpit window. In the rare event they regain composure, they realise all there sensors have been covered by laundry. Next thing they know a cow bursts into there cockpit and kills them Turn a wins
>>13461115 If they're psycommu, then yes. According to Unicorn's author, his version of psycoframe is Ideonite and in terms of on-screen feats the Unicorn has pulled the most bullshit hax this side of G Gundam. Awakened Unicorn could just wave its hand and shut down either of the Turn units completely.
>>13461384 Anime turn a was fine as pointed out in this thread before, especially when its I field completely nullifies the main gimmick of the SF, beams from high on every angle. Come on now, while the Turn A isn't as instant win as people used to think I agree its still better than the SF which in reality isn't as OP as people think.
(Seedfags and haters alike give it too much credit its a good mech, yeah but there's allot of shit both older and especially more recently that's stronger than it in the franchise the turn a being one of them, IMO clearly)
> can turn invisible, block all beams and physical projectiles in various ways and it's nanomachines can eat all technology, including beam shields and missile explosions as well as cause storms that engulf mountains
You're overestimating the Freedom and the Strike Freedom's capabilities if you think that's even remotely true. It doesn't matter how skilled Kira is, there's really nothing his machines have that would allow him to defeat the Turn-A. There's also really nothing in that webm you posted that's any more impressive than >>13460785. Loran shows at least as much skill throughout Turn-A as Kira ever does, if not more.
I see you haven't actually watched Turn-A then? It's not nearly as invincible as the black history bullshit Turn-A, but it's still far more impressive than the Strike Freedom just confining it to the actual anime.
He befriends Kira and makes him a better character. That or he pops him in the missile silos and then when it's convenient throws him at the sun. Even if it doesn't kill him, he's definitely gone and UC gets a Sun God. Problem solved.
>>13461276 >people are kind of heavily downplaying Kira's skills here. His skill is mostly beam spam or dodging beam spam. Seeing as Turn A can deal with beams in a number of ways easily and doesn't spam Kira hasn't got much special
>>13461411 >far more impressive than the Strike Freedom just confining it to the actual anime. lol, no. SF would be flying circles around the lumbering Turn. It has exactly one superwepon and other than that it's a shitbox with a 0079-tier rifle.
>>13461490 So what? So does literally every Gundam ever. But the point is that Kira is known for extremely high speed sword maneuvers that Loran could not possibly keep up with. Just watch the Loran vs Gym sword "fight", he has absolutely no clue when it comes to meelee.
Beam sabers generally work on the same principles as beam weapons in genereal in Gundam, so given that the Turn-A has blocked beams with both it's physical shield, it's i-field and the nanomachines, I would imagine so. Also, what's stopping him is the fact the Turn-A is either invisible or in the middle of a rapidly expanding cloud of nanomachines that are eating the Strike Freedom's beam shields and then the actual suit.
Sword fighting on foot is, unless you're in G Gundam not really related to sword fighting in a mobile suit. And Loran has proven quite adept with the beam sabers himself, so he stands as good a chance as anyone. Not that it matters when he can turn invisible and/or eat the other guys suit before it's even in visible sight of him.
>>13461533 >How would he get close enough The same way he usually does. People's MS's suddenly lose their arms, legs, head, etc and as they go "WTF?!?!" they realize that Kira Yamato just flew by really, really fast. Loran Cehack in the Turn A trying to beat Kira Yamato in the Strike Freedom would be like a tree sloth trying to hit Bruce Lee.
Turn-A's rifle isn't that impressive. Kira's dodged or blocked rifle shots easily.
Butterfly would be an issue, but contrary to what they say it doesn't seem to cause immediate destruction in the anime. Gym uses it and sends Harry's group flying but their Sumo's don't instantly melt, nor do Turn A and X when they use it on each other. Kira can zip by and get a slash in.
If we're talking about the Dark History, which makes the Turn A live up to its heritage as the final form of humanity's relentless bloodthirst and technological evolution - It's literally an interstellar weapon of mass destruction designed to wipe out other solar systems of human civilisation
>The Turn A (∀) Gundam was originally designed for interstellar warfare. Unlike mobile suits from previous timelines, the Turn A is powered by a DHGCP power plant (Discontinuous Hyperoscillation Gauge Collapsing Pile) which is essentially an artificial black hole. The power plant leaves the chest cavity of Turn A empty, allowing various equipment to be placed inside, as evidenced by the Turn A holding nuclear warheads within the cavity. The Turn A's main propulsion is provided by an I-Field Beam Drive System, which left the mobile suit completely hollow and allows it to be filled with extra armaments and rocket thrusters. Moreover, the Turn A is also equipped with an I-Field Barrier which could protect it from various sorts of attacks with power output lower than the system requires, such attacks include nuclear explosions.
It's powered by a black hole, has a dank ass i-field forcefield, can teleport nukes and beam shots into you, self-repairs with nanomachines, oh and its beam rifle is ridiculously powerful.
And it has a spiky metal ball on a chain. Let's not forget about that. Pretty dangerous stuff.
If just what was shown in anime, Turn A would win if it activated Moonlight Butterfly and then the Freedom would be fucked by nano machines pretty quickly
>>13461573 >We're not talking about the novel >Where was that stated? When have novels EVER been canon? When Amuro got killed by a Dom pilot? When everyone on earth evolved to Coordinators? No, only when Turnfags want to trump a power level contest that they know they can't win with actual canon.
The anime Turn-A does trump the Strike Freedom though. Handily at that. I don't know why people are dragging in the novel/manual stuff. Not only is it bullshit, it's not actually necessary.
The novels get brought up when people want to discuss Char quite a bit though, since you ask. The novelization of Beltorchika's Children expands on what Char was doing before trying to drop a rock, give more depth to Nanai and her relationship with Char and makes Char's rebellion bigger and more of a threat since he has a lot more influence on the colonies in general. If you expand it to include manga, games and so on, then side material gets brought up way more often to discuss almost every show Tomino made. That's not actually convenient to your point though, so I guess we have to leave that out.
One of them has just demanded he write a new trilogy. George is as scared of that idea as everyone else and if you read up about Lucas, he really does hate writing so the idea of doing it would probably hurt him, but it's the only way for the Empire to expand so sacrifices must be made.
>>13461620 I haven't even brought the novel up for any of my posts what I was getting at in that post, is that even the novel turn a has this one. So I should have phrased it better but the novel is more or less a moot point anyways since limiting it to anime it ends the same way anyhow.
Well Beams are just going to be several magnitudes faster then any rocket propelled anchor. To say nothing of volume, Freedom's little bit there is just much more impressive. At least in the since of evasion.
> there's really nothing his machines have that would allow him to defeat the Turn-A
A SUMO damaged it with physical blows, why can't the Freedom?
>Loran shows at least as much skill throughout Turn-A as Kira ever does, if not more.
I've never seen all of Turn A, I tried when I was much younger...but the slow start made me quit. What are some of your examples? Kira's...pretty top tier skill wise if you don't just follow the memes. Also being invisible doesn't mean anything, Kira has heightened Spatial Awareness...he's sensed objects without actually seeing them a number of times. And Loran isn't going to bust out the Moonlight Butterfly.
>>13461411 >Loran shows at least as much skill throughout Turn-A as Kira ever does AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no. You're comparing a kid who read the manual with a guy who rewrote the operating system. Loran is a doof who is enamored with the queen of the moon, Kira is a genetically engineered super-genius who knows mechanical engineering backward and forward and can express every move a mobile suit can make as a mathematical variable. Nevermind the fact that he has heightened spatial awareness, reflexes, and much higher physical tolerances than Loran. This debate could actually be won without Kira ever firing a shot if Loran tries following Kira through hard enough High-G maneuvers.
>>13461757 It means nothing for pacifism if you are a flawless human being flying a flawless machine preaching about pacifism. For that kind of person, it's easy, it is meaningless, it is hypocritical, of course you can have peace! no one can defeat you. For others like Loran and Amuro, or Camille, even if they where gifted, even if they were exceptional pilots, they where flawed human beings who had to overcome their shortcomings and deal with the suffering of themselves and their world from war. Pacifism when chosen by angry and rational humans means something, pacifism FORCED by a robot piloting a mobile suit is easy and hollow.
>>13461757 Because Kira's style of pacifism is still just glorified gunboat diplomacy, but packaged hypocritically. Athrun called him out on it in-universe, and most mainstay protags in SRW have given him shit for it as well.
Watch the final episode. When Corin attacks the two Turns, the Moonlight Butterfly instantly slices his unit's in two. A completely clean cut that goes through the entire suit in a split second. When it attacks the SUMO squad in the prior episode it only lets off a light show that covers the area, but looks a bit different visually and doesn't summon the same magnetic storms so doesn't appear to be the full, actual Moonlight Butterfly.
> Well Beams are just going to be several magnitudes faster then any rocket propelled anchor.
Not in Gundam they aren't. Beams in Gundam are slow enough that people can avoid them even from small distances. They probably move slower than modern bullets in many instances and even looking at the two webms posted there's no real difference in the speed between the beams and the rocket anchors.
> To say nothing of volume, Freedom's little bit there is just much more impressive. At least in the since of evasion.
On the other hand those rocket anchors are capable of twisting and turning in mid flight and do quite a bit of it.
> A SUMO damaged it with physical blows, why can't the Freedom?
Because if the pilot is being serious his opponent knows he doesn't stand a chance.
More seriously, the time that it was damaged by the SUMO the pilot wasn't nearly as familiar with what the suit could do as he is later in the show. So, at the time he wasn't aware it could go invisible or that it could use something like the Moonlight Butterfly. Hell, only a couple of episodes before hand he'd just found out that it had beam sabers and thrusters.
>>13461811 Literally the dumbest thing ever, because Kira never lost anything in the war. Not like he watched two people die right in front of him...or went from a student with no blood on his hands to a killing machine.
Nope. Didn't lose squat. Kira never tries to force pacifism on anyone, not even Athrun. At most he tries to force ORB to not fight.
Additionally, in the final stretch of the show, both Turns become almost immune to damage as seen in the attached screenshot. They are both hit multiple times by beams, missiles and, in one instance, a rocket punch and suffer no damage whatsoever. These aren't glancing blows by the way, they're hit full on by them. The Turn-X was probably that hardy all along, but the Turn-A was most likely improved when in Gym's possession, since it's mentioned a couple of times that they took the opportunity to tune it up. It's possible that they run an energy charge through the armor a la the 00 Gundams to make them hardier. Regardless of the explanation though, it's a lot tougher by the finale than it was earlier in the show, and in addition to all the other options it has means that the Turn-A is really pretty much impossible for Kira to beat in any of his machines.
> What are some of your examples? Kira's...pretty top tier skill wise if you don't just follow the memes.
Well, several have been mentioned in the thread, but the pic in >>13461856 shows a greater example of marksmanship than Kira ever displays to my memory. In the space of a second or so, Loran grabs an enemy suit and locks it's arm in to position and then fires it with pinpoint precision to hit a moving target and disable it. This, when the suit was damaged (and by his own words, reacting slower) and also without the aid of any kind of targeting software.
> Also being invisible doesn't mean anything, Kira has heightened Spatial Awareness...he's sensed objects without actually seeing them a number of times.
You'll have to remind me of examples here, because I can't recall them off hand. How accurate was he at sensing invisible objects?
> And Loran isn't going to bust out the Moonlight Butterfly.
Unless I'm remembering badly, Kira isn't likely to break out the big guns immediately either and is more likely to try and talk to Loran.
The beams that travel tens of thousand of kilometers are attached to super weapons, not mobile suits. The beams in the webm posted certainly aren't moving that fast and in fact, don't appear to be going much, if any faster than the rocket anchors.
You can't honestly be taking animation as hard evidence of how fast particle beams move can you? I mean even with our current technology we can accelerate particles to well in access of any regular projectile. The only real way they'll be more viable then regular weapons is this way...they'd have such minuscule kinetic energy otherwise.
I mean animation gets so much else wrong it seems pretty silly to base this on it.
>>13461870 >>13461910 The speed of beams just depends on the stylistic preferences of each series. In most depictions, including 0079, they seem to be very fast. CCA in particular, as well as F91 to a lesser extent, show beams being relatively slower though.
If we're throwing out the animation we might as well just be making up whatever we want for everything anon. Sure, it doesn't make sense. Neither does using giant robots though. A lot of stuff in Gundam is rather inefficient and even technologically backwards, what's one more example?
>>13461900 >shows a greater example of marksmanship than Kira ever displays to my memory
Kira chucks a sword through a ZAKU's head with fairly high precision at one point. In the attached Webm he also pulls off four precision shots that impact all within less then a second on two different targets. Not only did he peg two different moving targets from a distance while moving himself...he predicted their reactions from the first shot and lined up a second to hit exactly like he wanted.
All the shots hit within less then a second...so they had to be pulled off within the same tight window to hit like that. Think about the ridiculous amount of skill required for such a thing.
>You'll have to remind me of examples here,
He senses the Archangel is in danger in SEED. Twice he senses incoming DRAGOONs in destiny.
>>13461989 >It's impossible to show every beam fired at a short distance to be imperceptibly fast Nah, man, they did that on G.I. Joe all the time. You just show a red line from point A to point B flash for a second, then a blue line from point B to point A. Then you loop the animation.
If you're accepting all beams travelling at slow speed to be visual short-hand for "they're real fast", then the argument is moot anyways, since both Kira and Loran dodge beams short at close range regularly.
> Think about the ridiculous amount of skill required for such a thing.
If we're accepting the above explanation that beams are always meant to be travelling fast and just shown slow, then think about the fact that Loran shoots beams out of the air before they reach their target on multiple occasions. Sometimes shooting multiple beams out of the air within a second or two, and at least occasionally without using the targeting helmet. Think about how much calculation that takes.
> He senses the Archangel is in danger in SEED. Twice he senses incoming DRAGOONs in destiny.
Was he actually able to sense the position of the DRAGOONs or just that they were about to hit him?
>>13462056 In that case then the pacifism issues arises again, Kira does not have "skill" in the sense of something earned and developed purely through a new situation. Kira is an overwhelming pilot instead purely based on his apparently genetic design and enhancement. This is the fundamental principle of the "Chinese Room Experiment" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room#Replies Where in Kira is the machine simulating pacifism and Loran is the human understanding and applying pacifism. Pilot skills are similar, Loran develops some excellent piloting skills by engaging in battle and learning accordingly. Kira is only simulating skill, to him battles are pre programmed events in his genetics which he simply lives out. It is the difference between the worlds most fantastic piano player and the worlds most fantastic player piano. One is a human who learned, the other even if improved upon is merely a pre-programmed perfected unit.
>>13462103 >Kira is an overwhelming pilot instead purely based on his apparently genetic design and enhancement. Not according to the show, no. It's stated outright that while coordinators have higher potential they still have to train to reach that potential. The only things they have that are just a given are the disease immunity and higher tolerance to heat/cold/damage. Kira knew how to program and operate a mobile suit because that's what he was doing in school. The professor he went to see in the first episode gave Tolle and Mirialia an operating system for him to do a program analysis on. He knows that shit because he studied it.
>>13462082 The thing you have to pay attention to is power output. Psy-commu and all newtype technology run on two principles, command and power. Funnels for example while controlled by psy-commu are still powered by internal batteries and power. Even if the Turn-A could be NT-D jammed movement wise, the power source is a black hole generator that creates energy on planetary levels. As well Loran is not a newtype and the Turn-A is puppeteered through i field manipulation so the NT-D might not even activate to hack the i fields in the first place. So at best the NT-D might immobilise it, maybe, but not really "turn it off".
>>13462137 >Via Hibiki was pregnant with two children - twins who were to be named Kira and Cagalli. Her husband, Ulen, needed a test subject for his artificial womb, a device made to handle the birthing process of Coordinators. To her horror, Ulen used Kira's fetus to modify him into a Coordinator, but the process worked - Kira would be born a flawless Coordinator.
>SEED mode represents the ability for an individual with the SEED factor to enter into a state of enhanced awareness and peak physical ability. While in this state, the person (usually a mobile suit pilot, but not necessarily) demonstrates heightened reflexes and extremely quick information processing. This ability is usually triggered by extreme situations or from recalling significant traumas, often arising out of a need to protect someone else in a critical situation.
He is the most perfect"flawless" genetically engineered human who is also a super new-type ace pilot. But im sure that is a coincidence.
>>13462171 That doesn't remotely equate to >>13462103 >to him battles are pre programmed events in his genetics which he simply lives out. He's an ace pilot because A: He does have extremely fast reflexes, enhanced spatial awareness, and excellent coordination (no pun intended) B: He knows mobile suit engineering inside and out from studying
I believe it was Athrun who explained to Cagalli that coordinators still have to exercise and practice, they're not born good at everything. While they don't have to practice for as long as a normal person (since they are genetically predisposed to being quick learners) they certainly do not have pre-programmed skills encoded into their genetics.
>>13462197 The actual factoid is that beam sabers in CE can't block other beam sabers. You don't see combatants cross beam sabers like you do in most lightsaber battles. I think there was a slip-up or two where it was supposed to look like each one blocking with their shield but came out looking like they locked sabers, but the SEED staff made a conscious choice to avoid that. They do block beam shots quite a lot, though.
>>13462208 ...No, that's wrong too. If that were the case I imagine they'd have edited it out in the two editions since the original. A thread on mechatalk covered how nothing ever says they can't block each other...it only explains how they work.
>>13461866 >or went from a student with no blood on his hands to a killing machine. He does not care about his past life. Kira is a vehicle for an idea: that self-righteous UNDERSTANDING crap.
>Not like he watched two people die right in front of him... Nothing beyond war losses. They're not a cross he carries the whole time, unlike Kamille (Four), Casval (Lalah) or Shinn (Mayu). Fllay I can understand, but did Kira ever gave a flying fuck for that "friend" of his who died on the Skygrasper? Beyond the visual flashbacks, it's not something the story cares very much about.
>Kira never tries to force pacifism on anyone Except the whole planet at the end of Destiny, and the pilots he disables while on the battlefield
> Kira does the same on at least two occasions against the Destiny.
So basically they both do much the same things is what I'm getting from this. Which is pretty much what I was saying in the first place.
> Um. If the Targeting Helmet is anything like the old over the shoulder targeting system. Its only real use is long range target acquisition. It's not like you can't target without it.
Loran uses it for visual range shooting a few times, regardless of what it's like compared to the old over the shoulder one. Kira on the other hand is only ever able to use his beam spam attacks in conjunction with his targeting computer, which is why I mentioned the targeting computer assistance specifically.
> He sensed them before they even arrived.
Again, did he sense their exact position or just that they were going to hit him so that he could avoid them? They're two very different things.
>>13462222 >Nothing beyond war losses. They're not a cross he carries the whole time, So you didn't watch SEED at all, then. Because nigga breaks down crying over and over about the people he couldn't save.
>>13462199 But Kira was not just "some coordinator" He was the BEST coordinator, a flawless coordinator, who just happens to be also an ace pilot and programmer(which by the way only makes his case worse). Lets face it even if Loran became a mediocre pilot it was a more compelling journey than Kira's. He was just some moon-race dude who worked in a mine was sorta handy with machines, drove a car and then was thrust into a geo-political conflict in a super powerful mobile suit. It is the same reason Anakin is a shit character in the prequels his abilities are all just Midi-chlorian based. Kira has privileges, Loran has experience.
>>13462240 >Kira on the other hand is only ever able to use his beam spam attacks in conjunction with his targeting computer
That targeting computer requires skill and ability to use in itself. Listen to any other pilot talk about the Freedom. In the case of SF at least it even requires high spatial awareness to use properly. Likely so too in the case of the Freedom.
>Again, did he sense their exact position or just that they were going to hit him so that he could avoid them?
He senses them, moves and then they arrive and fire. Thats what happens.
>>13462240 >Kira on the other hand is only ever able to use his beam spam attacks in conjunction with his targeting computer, which is why I mentioned the targeting computer assistance specifically. Exactly. Kira depends exclusively on the sheer power of his mobile suits. It's pretty easy for anyone to win when your machine is better than everyone else's, and/or customized to hell and back to you.
>>13462267 >high spatial awareness What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
>>13462243 >crying over and over about the people he couldn't save. Immediately after. Compare that to Shinn's obsession with Mayu. He remembers Fllay sporadically, but not in a permanent basis nor as a reason for him to fight.
>>13462295 So unlike EVERY other pilot he has to land every shot to be good? That;s utterly stupid and holding him to a standard not even AMURO can live up to. Not only that he still does some ridiculous shit with a single rifle, I shouldn't have to get into how much harder it is to hit multiple targets with a single rifle...and how impossible it is to do it in the same timespan.
>>13462317 No, it shows how much he relies on his computer. He goes from 100% accuracy with enemies not even being able to dodge to less than 50% accuracy. Even if we just use beam rifle feats he was decimating everything in Destiny 23 while in Destiny 39 he missed shots.
>>13462317 >I shouldn't have to get into how much harder it is to hit multiple targets with a single rifle... When the computer does all the job for you, it's quite easy, actually. Or what? Do you think he's doing that shit without aiming systems?
He doesn't think of her as often as Shinn thinks of Mayu but he does think of Flay (and Tolle, and Mwu and Natarle) alot in Destiny. He's thinking of them when he decides to have AA deployed again so that seems to really be his reason to fight.
>>13462337 Except when he isn't. He was only able to sense Rey and before that only had that single flash when he shot up the ships. He didn't flash at all when he was being double teamed by Shinn and Rey on Earth. It was inconsistent as fuck. It only seems to active when Dragoons are involved.
>>13462346 A single shot got avoided and another got blocked. This is because with one rifle your enemies have time to key off on you after youve just shot up the buddy to their right. But like I said, please do tell me the pilot that never has missed a shot.
>>13462348 No more then any other pilot ever. Amuro, Char, Kamille, Heero, Loran, etc, etc.
>>13462357 >implying Shinn and Rey are high spatials I think you replied to the wrong post, I was just being facetious. Kira clearly does have newtype flashes though, just not very often. his NT ability is probably even lower than Char's. Also the only time you ever saw Mwu and Rau have flashes was them detecting each other. Newtypes detecting the presence of other newtypes is the lowest tier of NT sensitivity shown except for those two Category F in After War Gundam X who couldn't do anything but talk to each other telepathically.
But as for the actual meaning of "high spatial awareness", he's very aware of his surroundings and can keep track of multiple moving objects at different distances all around/above/below him. While most newtypes are good at this, it's not really a "newtype power".
>>13462355 He does think of Fllay a lot, but only in passing.
>He's thinking of them when he decides to have AA deployed again so that seems to really be his reason to fight. I don't remember that happening. Also, wouldn't it be Murrue's decision to deploy the Archangel? The kid is just an MS pilot, not captain. Murrue and Waltfeld outrank him (or are supposed to).
>and Tolle and Natarle When, at any point, he thinks about Tolle in Destiny? Or even worse, Natarle? The one who remembered her was Murrue, not Kira.
Episode 14 of Destiny, when Murrue and Kira are watching the AA set up and Murrue asks him if this is a really a good idea, and he says possibly not but they shouldn't just sit back and hope things work out because then they could get a repeat of the last war. While he's saying this he flashes back to Rau's ranting and Flay Mwu and Natarle exploding.
Earlier while he was staring at the ocean he was also flashing back to Flay, and Tolle.
It's only just flashback footage, but that's how Seed shows what someone is thinking about.
>and Natarle exploding. More like the Dominion exploding. The flashback doesn't even bother to show Natarle's dying face up close.
>It's only just flashback footage, but that's how Seed shows what someone is thinking about. From my perspective, it's a recount of the previous war. He wants to avoid that, not having individuals as a justification for his actions.
>>13465723 We've already established that it isn't particularly physically strong or durable. The beam rifle at max output (in-series, not that retarded "beam rifle as strong as a colony laser" shit) is comparable to Freedom's full burst, and I'm not certain whether the Turn A or Freedom is faster.
Also see up thread for the fact that in the final few episodes the Turn-A is portrayed as being basically invulnerable, presumably thanks to the upgrading Gym and Guin did while it was in their possession. It takes missiles, beams and other attacks full on with no damage what so ever.
It can turn invisible, it has an i-field that can spread further than the Strike Freedom's beam shields, it has a core fighter, it's nanomachines can function for self-repair and eat both physical and energy attacks as well as eat technology and it has some degree of nuclear protection built in. It also has at least two more beam cannons built in to it's abdomen. Which yes, are used during the series, in the final few episodes when Joseph has it. Again, after Guin and Gym do some work on it. It was probably there all along, but Joseph is the first to use it regardless, so it has at least 3 beams, not just one.
It is a far, far better suit than the Freedom or the Strike Freedom and you'd have to be nuts to believe otherwise.
>>13465814 >It can turn invisible So could the Blitz lol
>it has an i-field that can spread further than the Strike Freedom's beam shields Meaningless. The Big Zam had an I-field too.
>it has a core fighter So?
>it's nanomachines can function for self-repair and eat both physical and energy attacks No non-canon shit, please. And I'm ignoring the Moonlight Butterfly, because the comparison obviously isn't even close when that's included.
>It is a far, far better suit Only when you include the Moonlight Butterfly.
The Blitz didn't lose because of anything to do with it's invisibility and it's still a useful function regardless of the fact the unit was destroyed.
> Meaningless. The Big Zam had an I-field too.
Again, not actually a detriment on it's own. The Turn-A's i-field can stop physical as well as energy rounds though, so it's not actually like the Big Zams beyond the name. It's closer to the Strike Freedoms. Only instead of being wrist mounted, it's a bubble than can be stretched all around the suit, including covering several other suits if need be. It is better than the Strike Freedoms.
A core fighter is a useful feature to have, and it is one more thing that it has over the Freedom or Strike Freedom.
> No non-canon shit, please
It's not non-canon. Everything I just listed is portrayed in the series. Not even in flashbacks to the Black History either by the way. It's in the series proper once Merrybell and Loran start using it in the final ten episodes.
> And I'm ignoring the Moonlight Butterfly
And I'm pointing out that the Moonlight Butterfly isn't just a one use system and in fact is very versatile and does several different things over the course of the show, including those I listed. It also eats it's way through beam shields at one point now that I think of it.
> Only when you include the Moonlight Butterfly
Actually, even without it. I see you ignored the stuff about the Turns being portrayed as invincible in the final few episodes and that it has inbuilt nuclear protection. The unit isn't actually that physically frail in those episodes, and takes far more in that time than the punch the SUMO landed, meaning that the unit was incomplete in some way at the time and thus physically vulnerable but is no longer so during the finale. There's also the fact it's beam sabers can function both as beam shields and have variable length, with Loran making them several times as long on at least one occasion.
>>13465884 >The Blitz didn't lose because of anything to do with it's invisibility and it's still a useful function regardless of the fact the unit was destroyed. Has no bearing whatsoever in such a fight though.
>Again, not actually a detriment on it's own. No, but it's not that useful in a one on one fight. Especially against a mobile suit like the Freedom which is more than capable of fighting at close range.
>A core fighter is a useful feature to have Not in this scenario, no. The Turn A being able to detach its cockpit won't help it beat the Freedom.
>It's not non-canon. Everything I just listed is portrayed in the series. Not even in flashbacks to the Black History either by the way. It's in the series proper once Merrybell and Loran start using it in the final ten episodes. I don't recall anything like that, and I just watched Turn A again a month ago, but I'll take your word for it.
>I see you ignored the stuff about the Turns being portrayed as invincible in the final few episodes and that it has inbuilt nuclear protection. Yes, I'm ignoring the Moonlight Butterfly, and nuclear protection has no bearing whatosever in this. The question isn't necessarily just "which is the better mobile suit", but instead "which one would win"?
>There's also the fact it's beam sabers can function both as beam shields and have variable length Nigga the same could be said of the Zeta Gundam.
>>13465900 How is being able to be invisible not useful against guns? It's plenty useful in a one-on-one fight, it means the Freedom has to get out of spam range and into karate range. Yea the Core Fighter is pretty useless. The regen shows up in the SRW and G Generation games, but those aren't especially canon. The nuke guard is pretty good at showing how tanky it is, at least. The Zeta didn't have that, but the Victory did. The Victory was also a glorified grunt suit though.
> Has no bearing whatsoever in such a fight though.
The ability to turn invisible has no bearing in a fight. Are you serious? Not that it's all about who'd win in a versus fight, it's also about which is a better suit and things like that are not only useful in a fight, but do help make it a better all round suit.
> No, but it's not that useful in a one on one fight. Especially against a mobile suit like the Freedom which is more than capable of fighting at close range.
It can be concentrated over the Turn-A's shield going by the series and again, in the finale the Turn-A is portrayed as basically invulnerable anyways and takes missiles, beams and a rocket punch full on with no damage so it's not like it makes a difference.
> Not in this scenario, no. The Turn A being able to detach its cockpit won't help it beat the Freedom.
Actually, it might. The core fighter's front can be flipped up to expose some missile launchers, which Loran could fire at the Freedom while saber-locked. Though it could also just fire it's abdominal beam cannons from that position.
> I don't recall anything like that, and I just watched Turn A again a month ago, but I'll take your word for it.
Pull up the last two episodes, then watch any fights involving the Turn-A - especially the final fight with the Turn-X in the last episode. When Corin launches at them, he first fires a salvo of missiles right in front of them which all hit for no damage (pic here >>13461918) and then rocket punches them. Again, no damage despite landing dead on. Don't take my word for it, pull up the episodes and watch those scenes.
> Nigga the same could be said of the Zeta Gundam.
Actually the Zeta is never portrayed as being able to do it. It's indicated as being Kamille's newtype powers that do it. The Turn-A can do it by default no matter who the pilot is. I also don't recall the Freedom or Strike Freedom as doing it at any point regardless of whether the Zeta could.
>>13465918 >It's plenty useful in a one-on-one fight, it means the Freedom has to get out of spam range and into karate range. Yeah, and the Freedom has the advantage up close. >The regen shows up in the SRW and G Generation games, but those aren't especially canon. Yeah, they're wonky. Don't take anything shown in those games seriously, unless you think the Moonlight Butterfly could even possibly fail to take down a Scopedog.
>>13465932 >The ability to turn invisible has no bearing in a fight. Are you serious? What's he going to do after turning invisible, whip out the beam saber or beam rifle? Kira would be able to notice and dodge it. Just pummel the Freedom with the Turn A's bare hands? Phase shift armor might put a damper on that plan.
>Actually, it might. The core fighter's front can be flipped up to expose some missile launchers, which Loran could fire at the Freedom while saber-locked. Though it could also just fire it's abdominal beam cannons from that position. I doubt that core fighter missiles would make much of a difference, although you did just remind me of the absurdly retarded placement of the Turn A's cockpit, which most definitely works against it.
>When Corin launches at them, he first fires a salvo of missiles right in front of them which all hit for no damage (pic here >>13461918) and then rocket punches them. I'm not sure if a Kapool is a good benchmark to use.
>>13465967 The Freedom hasn't got anything really special in melee, just the beam sabers. The Turn A still has the maneuverability advantage, and just as many sabers. And yea, they're really wonky. Stupid AGE stuff tanking a Satellite Cannon.
My question is...if Freedom and Strike Freedom with Kira are admittedly a pretty potent combination. Why are they so often said to be worse then say...Garrod in Double X, Heero in Wing Zero or especially Amuro in Nu or Hi Nu?
> Yeah, and the Freedom has the advantage up close
You've yet to actually prove that, even when dismissing the moonlight butterfly entirely, despite the fact it's a core part of the unit that can affect it's attack, defense and support functions. What makes the Strike Freedom good in melee range?
> What's he going to do after turning invisible, whip out the beam saber or beam rifle? Kira would be able to notice and dodge it. Just pummel the Freedom with the Turn A's bare hands? Phase shift armor might put a damper on that plan.
I like how you take it on faith that Kira can notice any beam rifle shot or beam saber attacks before they happen every time from any where. It is literally impossible that an invisible enemy could come up behind him and shank him with it's beam saber. Or that he be surprised at all. Thread has already indicated that he only senses other newtypes in show. And Loran ain't no newtype.
> although you did just remind me of the absurdly retarded placement of the Turn A's cockpit, which most definitely works against it.
It's actually the most effective place to put one due to being the center of mass. You dislike it because of the sexual connotations or perceived lack of defense, but that doesn't make it any less effective.
> I'm not sure if a Kapool is a good benchmark to use.
Why? It's a mid-UC suit that is probably at least comparable to a good chunk of CE stuff and has almost no effect on any of the Moonrace suits throughout the show baring a handful of extraordinary instances. And in the finale, this includes the Turn-A. Even if you don't want to count that though, how about SUMOs? The Turn-X and Turn-A both take hits from SUMOs (and possibly other suits) in the second to last episode and show no damage.
At the very least it should be noted that while a simple punch from Harry's SUMO damages the Gundams head early in the show, several Zakus and Flats barrage the Turn-A late in the show to no effect and that when hit with beams from SUMOs and missiles from a Kapool there's no effect either. It is at least not nearly as frail late in the show as it was early on. The Turn-X takes far more, since it takes several beam hits from the SUMOs and shows no damage. And the Turn-X is the Turn-A's brother unit as Gym himself constantly says, so chance are, if the Turn-X can do it, the Turn-A can too.
I'd also just like to point out the single use of the Turn-A's abdominal cannons in the show, since I think it's somewhat noteworthy. See all that golden light? All of that is beam shot, with it showing the effect a single later, as dozens of smaller little lances of beam decimate the Turn-X's backpack. It's beam cannons have a radius that is at least several times the height of the Turn-A itself.
It's like the G-Self's little laser thing it uses late in the show against the Gaitrash in effect actually, which is a nice bit of continuity.
>>13466280 >Why? Not him, but it's a mediocre UC unit that nobody in Turn A even uses properly, considering how they were literally all retarded. For all we know, the munitions loaded onto the thing are just fireworks that they thought were ammo.
> b-b-but it's totally not live ammunition because they're not real soldiers, so any effect or lack thereof totally doesn't count
Now you're just getting desperate. Loran is provided missiles by Dianna Counter a few episodes earlier in his Core Fighter a few episodes to blow up a Zssa just fine. There's not going to be a huge amount of difference between the missiles Dianna Counter provides him, and the ones they provide Corin. In fact, the ones Corin gets are almost certainly more effective given they'd be bigger due to the difference in size between a Kapool and a Core Fighter.
Throughout the show the Kapools and Zakus have very little effect on Moonrace suits because of the difference in technology. Early in the show a Zaku can give the Turn-A pause, at least when it's damaged and a punch from a SUMO can hurt it (though I suppose it's possible Harry was using a barrier or something on top of his fist at the time), but late in the show nothing those suits do damages the Turn-A, making it at least as hardy as any other Moonrace suit.
That doesn't mean those suits are shit, it just means they suck in comparison to the Moonrace stuff, which is centuries ahead of them technologically so it only makes sense. All the technology in CE is based on early to late UC stuff though and SEED itself almost entirely early UC type technology comparable at least to a Kapool.
>>13466334 Yea, the technology level is about on par with Z or ZZ, with Mobile Suits transforming and being able to fly. The Freedom and Justice might be about F91 or so, since they can fly independently.
>>13466396 Yea they do, the DX's huge guns can blow apart a colony, the Zero System lets you see the enemy's attacks when you can manage to not claw your eyes out, and the Psycoframe makes the Nu obscenely responsive. All the Freedom has is the N-Jammer Canceller, which is useful against N-Jammers but the only N-Jammers are in CE. Could bring the same arguement against the DX, though.
>>13466410 The DX's huge gun is pretty useless in a battle of Mobile Suits. It has a set up time that is untenable in a one-on-one combat situation unless your obscenely faster then your enemy and can put distance between you two.
The Zero System can MAYBE show you the enemy's moves before hand. It's a prediction machine and reads all the possibilities and ships them off to the pilot. Endless Waltz shows us it's not at all perfect.
You can't at all quantify how much more responsive the Nu would be then the Freedom. Amuro still uses classic controls too.
> Eh, suppose. Nu's a pretty thrown-together machine anyways.
Not really. Amuro didn't have time to field test it, but it was pretty much finished according to Char's Counterattack. And it was engineered to his specifications to suit his fighting style. It's no more thrown together than most any other suit, and probably less so than most frankly.
>>13466451 Heero was talking to Wufei in Endless Waltz. Not trying to fight him. If you've mastered the system you can pick the proper future amongst the ones presented. It's the reason Wing Zero could beat Epyon in melee. Aside from that Zero has better armor than any Freedom
>>13466697 He was defending. But when you're trying to talk down a crazed soldier who feels they lost their purpose in life and had a super computer constantly pumping your brain full of knowledge you kind of have to prioritize focus. Lets remember that Wufei was the only person to ever damage Wing Zero. Zechs couldn't do it. Heero couldn't do it when he was in Epyon, Duo couldn't do it. Nothing could damage it until the pilot literally wasn't trying.
>>13466742 But he was talking to Zechs their entire final battle. Mind you Zech's still HITS the Wing Zero, disarms it, etc, etc. And in that battle as well as an earlier one the Epyon takes damage. Heero is also surprised by battlefield conditions, distracted by them and snuck up on by Zechs.
>>13466847 That's not really the point. If he was just trying to defend and talk to Wufie the Zero System, if it was perfect, should have let him do it without taking any damage he didn't need/want to.
>>13466875 Zero System wasn't even talking to him. He even mentioned that. Zero System isn't perfect but to say it isn't a game changer is asinine. Especially when Wing Zero is already a better unit than the Freedoms.
>>13467007 As in it won't tell him anything about the questions he was asking. Justice, etc, etc, he asks it that specific question IIRC. Also lightness means little, Freedom and Strike Freedom clearly posses the technology to remain just as...if not more agile then Zero...and you're thinking acceleration...quickness.
>>13467035 He was asking Wufei how many more people must they kill and said Zero was telling him nothing. The whole argument was about discarded soldiers.
>Also lightness means little
It means a whole lot. Something that weighs doesn't need as much power as something heavier.
>Freedom and Strike Freedom clearly posses the technology to remain just as...if not more agile then Zero
What technology? Do we even have a breakdown of Freedom's technology? Can they even get the origin of Strike Freedom down? We have detailed information about Wing Zero down to the Zero Frame and how it interacts with the rest of the body, how the wings and feathers work etc. Wing Zero even has a better reactor that what is used in Seed.
>>13466410 >Yea they do, the DX's huge guns can blow apart a colony
That's worthless in a mobile suit dogfight unless you're stupidly trying to counter it with your own beams like the Frost Brothers did.
Kira could dodge the TSC easily. The thing is slow as hell. Massively destructive, but a flying mobile suit like either of the Freedom could dodge it. Kira could dodge Destroy's beams. TSC is even slower.
Amuro and Heero he would certainly have a problem with though.
>>13467197 >Strike Freedom multiples that a few times over, I think it's 3 or 4 times Kira says.
We never actually find out Strike Freedom's output compared to the original. It might not even be much at all. All we know is that the first Freedom had 5 times the output of Strike, and has unspecified higher output than Impulse.
>>13467197 >As in telling him nothing about how many more people they must kill. Not as in not telling him anything about battle like it always does.
It can't tell him about a battle he refuses to fight. His priority was getting to the shelter. Even then he had only been in Wing Zero for what, an hour or two since the end of Wing? Killing Wufei would definitely fall into people he must kill. Those Serpents at the shelter would definitely fall into that category too.
>As in the means with which it displays it's customary mobility. The ability to back flip, roll, barrel roll, accelerate and decelerate with practiced ease in 1G environments. Things like that.
MSG had Char's Zaku and the Gundam fighting DBZ style. Animation doesn't mean much. Tallgeese was already doing things like that and Zechs said Wing Zero was way more mobile than it when it switched.
>Sure. It'd just be all flowery text about what you observe in the anime though. So what does it matter?
There isn't any data like that about Freedom. They can't even get the golden joints story right. There is nothing that talks about Freedom's stats.
>Um. Freedom has a little over double the output in it's reactor compared to the Wing Zero. Fusion>Fission Freedom weighs almost 10 times more than Wing Zero and Kira said Freedom had three times more power than Strike. Considering Strike had a battery I don't find that impressive.
>>13467241 >Fusion>Fission >Freedom weighs almost 10 times more than Wing Zero and Kira said Freedom had three times more power than Strike. Considering Strike had a battery I don't find that impressive. While fusion does give off three times the output than fission, that doesn't match the stats
Freedom 8826 kW
Wing Zero 3732 kW
Freedom has greater output than ZZ and the Victory 2. It kinda reads like Fukuda wanted his machines to have the highest stats in the entire franchise, but those are official.
You also have to consider that the Freedom powers it's METEOR unit. And if you want to examine MA stats, the Dendrobium has an output of 38900 kW, exceeding Turn A's.
>>13460466 Freedom. Moonlight Butterly isn't a anti-mobile suit attack, it's just extreme pollution. Turn-A is a lot like Ideon in that it is capable of mass destruction but 99% of the time it's an unreliable clunky piece of shit. Assuming Loran is piloting he cannot even pull the Moonlight Butterfly off whenever he feels like it, it only activated when he was having a newtype-like angry autist moment. What reliable weapons has it got? A beam rifle and Gundam Hammer. Freedom Beamspam could wreck Turn-A's shit from afar and that's a fact. Of course Turn-A's beam rifle could do the same so it's actually fairly even, tech-wise. So it comes down to Kira being Gundam Jesus and disabling Turn-A, convincing Loran that there's no need for them to fight and the Turn-A slowly regenerating over a peroid of months because the regen capability is just that crap and not a factor in a fight.
>>13467307 If you want to bring up "technical" info the MG Wing Gundam manual states that the Buster Rifle, the regular Buster Rifle, generates as much power as consumed by a medium sized-city (presumably within AC) and at full power (using up an entire canisters, 3-shots) has a beam 300m in diameter. The TBR, which is significantly more powerful in show, can assumed to produce even more power.
>>13467299 >They actually have kilowatt figures for the reactors. It doesn't matter what sort of reactor it is when the energy output is measurable The fun part? Freedom's output measures at 8.826 Megawatts. The average power consumption of a Boeing 747 jumbo jet is140 Megawatts. Hell, a standard gas pump transfers energy at twice the Freedom's output at 16 Megawatts.
>>13467320 The I-fields in Turn A are SO POWERFUL that they can stop physical objects. Even the Turn-X was locked into stasis by Harry and his Sumo squad using the hand-held I-field generators, which were shown to be weaker than the Turn A's shield mounted I-field generation. Case in point, the Turn A had no problem blocking the ship-buster from the WaDom but Harry's Sumo lost its arm when the hand-held I-field generator just barely managed to stop a beam from the WaDom.
And the MLB isn't extreme pollution are you retarded? The MLB from the Turn-X easily overpowered the aforementioned I-field stasis and was even pushing the massive i-field system on the Soleil (the "Beam Field Generator") to its limits. The MLB is very clearly more than just flying robots. They've shown the ability to overpower unconventional forcefields and block beams.
>>13467349 The beamspam includes railguns, though evidentally the animators never got the memo. Turn-A has been shown to take damage before. Being hit by massive speedy slugs is going to put holes in it. I-fields deflect particles, not huge chunks.
>>13467355 >He didn't refuse to fight the battle, he was right there fighting it. He could have ran, not like the Nataku has a plethora of ranged weapons with which to hagger him.
He did try and run. Wufei kept getting in his way and using his wacky arms to chase him. He had to get into the atmosphere and doing that with someone breathing down your neck is dangerous.
>Tallgeese could backflip...that's about it.
Tallgeese was accelerating, decelerating, barrel rolling, twirling, backflipping etc all series. Just watch Tallgeese vs Mercurius and Vayeate. The difference is that other series barely make a big deal out of their suits being fast. Seed has to beat you over the head that Freedom is fast by having grunts comment on it. Nobody comments on anything else in battle except Freedom. Nobody commented on Destiny's afterimages. Nobody commented on Destiny being fast. I don't even recall anyone commenting on Providence's funnels. They commented on Strike Freedom's funnels though.
>Irrelevant in a battle. Output is all that matters.
That 8k has to push around 80t while Zero's 3k only has to push around 8t.
>Those battery's were capable of not only powering a Mobile Suit, but also powered every energy weapon the Mobile Suit had.
> Moonlight Butterly isn't a anti-mobile suit attack, it's just extreme pollution.
I'm pretty sure you've never seen Turn-A, because it's much more versatile than that, and not only can it eat physical technology, it can eat missiles, their explosions and beam shields to boot. It also sliced a mobile suit clean in half in a split second like it was nothing. It is not meant primarily as an anti-mobile suit attack, but it can damn sure act as one.
> it's an unreliable clunky piece of shit
We've already discussed this several times in the thread, which you apparently haven't read. It's overhauled before the finale and has much tougher armor by the finale. It's never unreliable or clunky. Getting damaged once doesn't make you either.
> Assuming Loran is piloting he cannot even pull the Moonlight Butterfly off whenever he feels like it
Funny then that both Merrybell and Joseph used the Moonlight Butterfly without problems. Loran can use it whenever he wants, he just doesn't want to.
> What reliable weapons has it got
A rifle, two beam sabers, two beam cannons in it's abdomen (you can see them at >>13466296) and some missiles in it's core fighter. Along with a shield, an i-field, the ability to turn invisible and the Moonlight Butterfly. All of which are reliable.
> Freedom beamspam could wreck Turn-A's shit from afar and that's a fact
It really isn't and it really couldn't. In fact, the Turn-X takes quite a bit of beam damage in the finale of Turn-A without the slightest hint of damage and the Turn-A takes a lot tougher attacks than Harry's punch after it's tuned without any damage either, including the splash damage from both beams and missiles. Even if it felt it was in trouble it has an i-field that is never penetrated in show despite taking hits much bigger and more destructive than any thing the Freedom packs.
>>13467479 >I don't think Seed units do that. With both Strike and Impulse we see them run out of power entirely and both can still move and Impulse can even still fly.
It's Fukuda. Chances are he didn't really think too hard about that. After all, we see the Destiny stab Destroys with it's Arondight, despite the end of the Arondight being a physical edge and the Destroys having phase shift.
Either that or it was on emergency "get back to base ASAP" power. Phase Shift is a major power drain, but there might be enough left in the batter for some movement before it's completely dry.
The more I flick through Turn-A, the more I realize how much of an outlier that SUMO punch was. It can't have had much power behind it, and yet it caved the head in. Meanwhile, at episode 27, well before it's overhauled, Loran gets hit dead on with three missiles from a WaD, which you'd imagine would do far more damage and...nothing. Not a scratch. I wonder is it just the head that's particularly vulnerable or something?
>Freedom powers it's own thrusters while it's not until late UC that they do such a thing. UC always had thermonuclear thrusters. Rocket propellant is heated by the minovsky reactor instead of being ignited by a chemical reaction (today's spacecraft rockets are chemical rockets).
>Freedom has to provide power to all it's weapons while in UC, they have E-Caps and later E-packs That's totally wrong, e-caps and e-pacs store ready-to-use minovsky particles like ammunition, they're not batteries. Beam weapons are basically particle accelerators, the minovsky reactor provides electricity to power the beam weapon which fuses the minovsky particles into mega particles.
No. Never ONCE did Heero show any signs of trying to get away from their battle.
>Tallgeese was accelerating, decelerating, barrel rolling, twirling, backflipping etc all series.
I actually never said that the Freedom was MORE agile then the Tallgeese. Simply that it was just as agile as top of the line machines in AC. But I'll still stand by Freedom being more agile then even Tallgeese in no small part due to it's evasion of DRAGOON fire, and all other examples of weaving through mass amounts of beams and projectiles.
> The difference is that other series barely make a big deal out of their suits being fast.
Except TG...who's entire big point is that it's fast, or quick anyway.
>Nobody commented on Destiny being fast.
They might have, I'm not going to go check anyway. But on average they were way to busy being sliced in half I bet.
>They commented on Strike Freedom's funnels though.
UH...when was this? Also see above for to busy being dead in the case of the Providence.
>That 8k has to push around 80t while Zero's 3k only has to push around 8t.
71 tonnes actually, and please keep in mind Freedom has enough excess energy to power the METEOR's weapons. So hardly does it require it's entire energy output to keep itself running. Probably well bellow it really, also keep in mind Freedom can easily carry an additional 70 tonnes and fly around.
And finally 8 tonnes is the Wing Zero's empty weight, sans fuel, ammo and the Buster Rifles.
>Which caused them to run out often.
Erm. Sure, for the Beam totting, Phase Shift equipped Mobile Suits. Even then only really the Aegis and Strike ever run out of power. Despite powering everything, including the Beam Rifle from that battery it got well over the amount of shots the Original Gundam did from it's rifle and e-cap set up...without running into power issues even.
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