Why did technology go so backwards? It's not like there was that much time inbetween the two. It makes no sense at all why they'd make the F91 when they had stuff like the Unicorn lying around.
Unicorn causes UC to diverge into the Future Century.
That's right, Unicorn is the prequel to G Gundam.
I agree OP. It literally makes no sense. UC is so inconsistent with it's technologies it's amazing anyone actually likes it. How the FUCK do Mobile Suits end up going into the direction of Gaia Gear then BACK to the fucking G-Savior?
Why can't Gundam into consistency?
Because that shit is too costly and unreliable.
The engineers don't know how the damn psycoframe works, and it needs a newtype pilot, and its fucking expensive to make something like the Unicorn.
My guess is that the Unicorn, being more psychoframe than anything else, was so outrageously expensive that they could only make one of them.
The F91 was a test type for a new standard model mobile suit. Sure, it was still too expensive to mass produce but using it in combat would tell the designers which features to use and which features to get rid of.
Makes sense after all that reckless time travel.
Yeah they perfected the Psycho-shard system later in the FC.
The same reason why technology never changes during the billion thousand year history of Star Wars.
People are lazy.
F91 is: designed to eventually be a mass production unit like most mobile suits (stuff like neue ziel and unicorn being exceptions hence their power), significantly faster than the unicorn, more heavily armed than the unicorn, better defended than the unicorn and cooler than the unicorn
That's a good question actually.
Imagine a world where the Flag isn't stroked off every day, where retards finally stop spamming "but muh Zaku." Finally the end of Tallgeese is love. Just imagine if everything is Gundam. Even me.
Unicorn needs a powerful newtype to run it who tend to be unstable and uncontrollable
F91 can be used by any pilot, is faster but also smaller (less materials needed =cheaper to produce).
While the scaled down suits do present a smaller target than the old standard, that also means a smaller reactor, less armor and reduced dakka. One configuration isn't inherently superior to the other, or the core fighter would've been the One Year War's ultimate weapon.
>While the scaled down suits do present a smaller target than the old standard, that also means a smaller reactor, less armor and reduced dakka.
And once you can scale those down so that a smaller suit can have similar specs to your old large suit then making your suits smaller makes sense.
>smaller reactor, less armor and reduced dakka
but it is better than "the old standard" in all those areas. Only the Unicorn is above it and as this thread points out it is not a very viable suit
Only because they completely halted production of the old form factor, meaning the smaller suits had the benefit of that era's technological advances while any extant Zakus were using outdated everything.
One of the reasons they started scaling down was the creation of smaller and more efficient reactors that allowed them to retain the outputs of larger ms. Armor was mostly a non issue when beams chew through everything and they were beginning to realize dodging > armor, plus beam shields were invented and could block almost anything that couldn't be dodged. As for dakka, its got the standard beam rifle, torso mounted machine guns, and two vsbr.
MS became much more efficient in design in late UC (until zanscar).
>halted production of the old form factor
cause they weren't as good an option. You can have more for a smaller size
This is what happens with technology, at some point making it stupid big isn't really worth it
The fuck point are you even trying to make now? That was made in 0083 when they hadn't figured out how to make shit smaller and more efficient
> at some point making it stupid big isn't really worth it
>at some point
Do you post old ass computers and go "see computers will never be small and much more powerful"
Isn't most of that rocket? Wasn't the point of that to maximise deltaV so that it could be deployed at range and move anyway from its support craft? It's effectively a one man spaceship with a completely different role to play from a normal mobile suit.
>see computers will never be small and much more powerful
Actually, I predict that within 100 years computers will be twice as powerful, 10,000 times larger, and so expensive that only the five richest kings in Europe will own them.
>Large high performance MS built to test full psycoframe system
>All the trippy shit is done by the psycoframe, which is expensive as fuck, and they have no idea how it even works in the first place
>Said psycoframe needs a newtype pilot to work
>Which is rare, and/or mentally unstable
The magic is done by the psycoframe, the psycoframe is simultaneously the thing that makes the Unicorn good and bad at the same time.
Its powerful when it works, but without a pilot that can use the psycoframe in the first place, its just a large high spec machine.
If you can put the same or better specs in a smaller package, without the unreliable psycoframe, the MS would be cheaper and more mass-producable.
Psycoframe development being cut off is the main reason.
But f91 is more advanced than the Unicorn in some places. It's faster IIRC, and the fact that it's way smaller means that they've advanced the MS tech to the point where they can start to miniaturize it.
VSBRs cant penatrate I-Fields, they are just slightly more powerful and accurate beam cannons that can punch through beam shields.
any sufficiently powerful beam weapon can defeat a beam shield, V2"s mega beam shield destroyed something like 7-8 MS and punched through a battleship class beam shield in a single shot.
>F91 cooler than the Unicorn
F91 is fast as fuck, has VSBRs that fuck all sorts of shit up and a reliable learning computer. It's so sick it ended up being mass produced for the next 10 years and then was still able to reck jovians
F91 does not have a learning computer. It has a bio computer.
Bio computer is like a reverse psycommu. Instead of the pilot mentally transmitting commands to the machine, the ms feeds information to the pilots mind directly. It can be used by oldtypes and newtypes, but newtypes can use it better.
Learning computer was that thing only installed on the rx78-2 that recorded combat and would make adjustments to the settings to make piloting it more efficient. The data was used to give the gms a leg up since their pilots lacked ms combat experiance.
RX-0 is obscenely unreliable as an actual military weapon, no matter how capable it is. It REQUIRES a newtype to be worth fuck all, the psycoframe does weird unpredictable shit to begin with, and the NT-D has five minute operational limit to begin with so that it doesn't kill the pilot.
so outrageously expensive that they could only make one of them.
They made 3.
If you mean generator output, then it's because power plants are built more for the suit's dependency on power rather than "how powerful can we make this generator for the fuck of it?" Notice how a lot of the beam-weapon heavy Neo Zeon suits have outrageous generator outputs.
If you mean thruster output, The reason is because suits like the Full Burnern have an embarrassingly short operational time compared to something like the Zeta if it's using it's thrusters at full output due to less propellant capacity, so it's a waste of resources when you can achieve the same speed with transformable MS. Sure, it CAN boost it's way across the entirety of S field at A Baoa Qu in a three second time frame, but it'll kill 60% of it's fuel in doing so. More thruster output means more propellant consumption, which is a problem with earlier OYW-Post OYW MS don't have particularly high propellant capacity when compared to stuff from 0087 and onwards to begin with. Remember when the Unicorn killed it's propellant in about 20 minutes of operation because he had the thrusters running at full output for about two-three minutes? Shit would have been disastrous if Frontal hadn't shown up to save them.
So even though they could, they didn't make a habit out of making MS like the Full Burnern; During a full scale battle, they need to mitigate their fuel usage (not to mention pace themselves so that they can aim/fight properly,) so even though they can technically maneuver far faster than anything else on the battlefield, they end up moving about as fast as everybody else anyway.
F91 is faster and stronger than Unicorn. Slap some psycoframe on F91 with a powerful newtype and it would be just as good. The I-Field generator in the Unicorn's shield is leg up on the beam shield in beam defense, though.
No, and the F91 doesn't even have that.
>The I-Field generator in the Unicorn's shield is leg up on the beam shield in beam defense, though.
Absolute defense against beams versus decent defense against beams and physical. Sort of a tradeoff I guess.
Well, the only thing really penetrating beam shields are the VSBRs, variants of Beam Cannons, mega beam rifle, and WoL. Physical weaponry have no chance, but physical weapons can wear down Unicorn's shield. I would say beam shields as a whole are better.
All this dumb ms dick waving is why I'm glad for shows like 08th ms team and iron blooded orphans that treat theyre mechs like actual machines and not laser spewing magic angles of death
Real swords > lightsaber ripoffs
I did initially forget about that, but I'm talking about in general. Gottrlatan is one of the best UC suits.
V2's mega beam cannon has went through multiple mobile suits and a battle ship's beam shield in a single shot. V2's mega beam rifle does what it does in that webm. Interesting to note the Gottrlatan's mega beam cannon couldn't penetrate through three beam shields at once that one time.
Unicorn is just a one off overpowered zeon prototype in a gundam costume. GM's win wars, Zakus anyone can pilot, even the F-91 led to the mass produced victory. Tech did not go backwards it just realized the simple fact that maybe 10000 AK-47s are more useful than one atom bomb.
>Interesting to note the Gottrlatan's mega beam cannon couldn't penetrate through three beam shields at once that one time.
The VSBR on Harrison's F91 goes through Two Beam Shields and gets blocked by the Zanbuster, which is a stronger Beam Saber designed to cut through Beam Sabers and Beam Shields.
Crossbone's Beam Shield was also used to block the Vulcan Guns/Machine Cannons on the F91.
I'm aware. That webm showed that Gottralan's mega beam cannon is more than a match for V2's VSBR. Three shields is probably too much to penetrate with a single shot with the VSBR.
That's like saying "it's completely unrealistic that the USA would field a fighter like the F-35 when it is less maneuverable than an experimental fighter, the X-29, from the early 80s!", you are missing the bigger picture.
>Passive stealth is a game changer.
Except the main selling point of the F-35 is the electronics suite, which are smaller and more powerful than the same electronics in the X-29 so yes it is in the same exact ballpark.
MS and MA fill different roles.
Wasn't the big thing with VSBR was they were beam cannons powerful enough to penetrate a beam shield but still be small enough to be mounted on an MS?
Also I can't remember but were the VSBR the first fielded beam cannons capable of changing their output as the shooter wants?
I should watch F91 again but all I got is a phone.
Wasn't psycoframe development cut off because it was legally banned? If a single MS with psycoframe only around the cockpit was able to do something like push axis back into space imagine what an MS completely made out of the stuff can do? No wonder shit's banned.
Did they really never install the learning computer on anything else? Sounds like it would be handy. But I guess it would make MS less interchangeable among pilots. Unless you changed the computer as well I guess but then you'd have issues if a pilot got assigned to a different model MS.
>VSBR the first fielded beam cannons capable of changing their output as the shooter wants?
They're beam rifles, and no. Apparently The O can change the output of its rifle according to its MG manual. VSBR can fire either high-velocity mega particle beams for greater penetrating power, or low-velocity beams for maximum damage. High velocity output is what allows it to penetrate beam shields.
No. By CCA era vulcan technology was so powerful that they could blow apart Geara Doga's in a few hits
If anything miniaturization and the dawn of beam shields made them less viable.
Oh god, another one of these canon obsessed retards. Technology in later uc may appear to be less sophisticated because f91, crossbone, victory, g saviour, and gaia gear are older than unicorn. I swear you're trying to false flag to make unicorn fans look bad.
Overall, I'd agree. It's smaller, lighter, has comparable firepower (beam magnum beats VSBR probably, but you you can effectively fire a VSBR indefinitely since they draw straight from the reactor while beam magnum drains an entire e-cap with one shot), and maneuverability-wise the F-91 can probably run rings around the Unicorn with relative ease.
I also think it looks way better.
However, while it's unreliable from a military standpoint, you can't ignore the insane hax the Unicorn is shown to be capable of in-series. It can basically psycoframe-magic itself out of just about anything you can throw at it. Even colony lasers.
I don't mean counting beam shields here. What I'm saying is since beams chew through everything there's really not that much point in putting a ton of armor, or even thick armor, on an MS anymore. So thinner armor results in less powerful weapons, like vulcans, preforming better and becoming more viable to use against MS.
Now I'm not saying they become completely viable or the best option or anything like that, far from it.
Suppose they come out with a new type of weapon that can tear right through an Abrams so well the Abrams might as well not even be there. Now putting enough armor on the tank to make it withstand that new weapon is just not feasible and would probably get in the way of it doing its job. So they cut the armor in half or more to make it cheaper and faster but because of that weapons that used to not really do anything beyond putting some light dents in it start doing more significant damage. They may not take the Abrams down but if it can stall them, force them to stop and go back for repairs, etc you'd consider picking it up and using it instead of before where you probably wouldn't even take it with you.
I don't know why you'd imagine that the Beam Magnum is more powerful than a VSBR, the Magnum drains a full E-Cap as made in UC96-ish. Maybe a little earlier given how long they'd had the Unicorn locked away. F91 is UC123. And given the advancement of tech from the other series, I'd imagine their beams and such are also using higher amounts of energy, though it's not noticable thanks to the advancement in reactor tech. The Unicorn NT hax such as the colony laser was a joint effort between two Unicorn class mobile suits with similar or identical levels of psychoframe each piloted by immensely powerful Newtypes. It's likely that the shield work by having each pilot amplified by the psycho-frames of both machines simultaneously.
I'm not sure we're ever shown what a VSBR fired at maximum slow is capable of, usually we just seem them used in high-speed mode for quick kills. It;s certainly more versatile than the beam magnum is though. The magnum is strong, but has only six shots and can't dial back its firepower.
panaramic cockpits were always portrayed like that, they did the same thing in CCA. its to show that the images shown on the various screens around the cockpit are a composite of dozens of cameras around the cockpit and they arnt always perfect.
it was also used to differentiate views from inside and outside of cockpits, regular space looked perfectly fine.
Because it's powerful enough to destroy an MS without even actually hitting any part of it.
Also because the way its portrayed makes it feel like it would be more powerful. The brief charge-up before each shot. The much more energetic-looking beam visual. And so on. Admittedly, that may have just as much to do with Unicorn (the OVA, not the suit) being 20 years newer and having CGI effects to play with.
This is basically my point.
The VSRB isn't about strong vs weak output, it's about how much it condenses/focuses its beam. At its highest focus it's a thin piercing shot, at lowest focus its a weaker but more wide area spread that can hit multiple targets at once(We see it using this mode when fighting the bugs iirc).
>it was also used to differentiate views from inside and outside of cockpits, regular space looked perfectly fine.
This always confused me, I didn't realize it was done intentionally to show the difference from cockpit view to outside view.
AC beams use a different type of medium than UC's beams and their mega particles. So it's kind of hard to compare the two.
Also which buster rifle do you mean? There's a few different ones. Do you mean the Wing Gundam's 3 shot e-cap one or Wing Zero's duel buster rifles that have their own reactors?
No fucking idea, the Rozen Zulu is supposed to have a quasi-psycommu system for oldtype use but Banagher was able to commune with the Rozen Zulu by putting the Unicorn's hand on the Zulu's claw. Technically wireless things like the rose psyco-jammers shouldn't work with the Rozen Zulu because minovsky particles interfere with all other forms of wireless signals (except lasers which require line of sight and optical light signals) so only newtype psycowaves allow bits and funnels to be wirelessly control under minovsky jamming, but the quasi-psycommu don't use those.
MG Manual states the Buster Rifle, yes the Wing's basic ass Buster Rifle, produces the same amount of power consumed by a medium sized city (presumably in AC) and at full power can shoot 3 300m wide beams. To be frank, it's on a completely different level from anything handheld in UC.
they never need a recharge time and don't have the three energy barrels either, so it's pretty much implied they have a built-in reactor.
It's not like other beam weapons didn't have reactors, the Taurus beam cannon also had a reactor, that was why Leos and Aries were able to use the Taurus beam cannon. Vayeate's beam cannon had a bigass reactor so it could fire shots on a similar level as the Wing Gundam's buster rifle but over and over with a small recharge time in between. Virgo beam cannons were basically the nozzle mounted on the arm with energy cables leading to a generator in the shoulder, they could fire shots large enough to completely engulf an Aries.
It might be mentioned here.
Your reasoning makes sense. I always just thought it was the animators not giving a shit anymore. After all there are instances where the death scythe fires its buster shield thing and then in the next shot it is magically back on its arm.
>MG Manual states the Buster Rifle (yes the Wing's basic ass Buster Rifle) produces the same amount of power consumed by a medium sized city (presumably in AC) and at full power can shoot three 300m wide beams.
Yeah, each one of those cylinders can supply one full-power shot. That's one of the neat things about the Ver.KA; six spare power cylinders = another six super-powerful blasts. Sheesh!
And yeah, a 300m WIDE beam blast... that's insane. And it's not even as crazy as what the Wing Zero can do. But, watching the show, it's an accurate description of what the Buster Rifles are capable of.
>To be frank, it's on a completely different level from anything handheld in UC.
Indeed. The Gundam Wing TV show started the trend of Gundams having utterly almighty guns. Before Wing, Gundams tended to carry pretty much just regular beam rifles most of the time. Since Gundam Wing, though, the highest aspiration for any Mobile Suit is just to have a BIG GUN.
>they never need a recharge time and don't have the three energy barrels either, so it's pretty much implied they have a built-in reactor.
>Your reasoning makes sense. I always just thought it was the animators not giving a shit anymore.
According to the Japanese Wikipedia page for the Wing Gundam Zero:
“Unlike the Gundam Wing’s Buster Rifle, whose energy supply comes from cartridges and therefore is limited to three shots, the Wing Gundam Zero’s Twin Buster Rifle’s energy is supplied directly from the [fuselage/airframe] generator[s?], so it’s capable of continuous sustained fire.”
The only part that’s unclear to me is the “[fuselage/airframe] generator” phrase. Is it referring to the MS’ internal generator, or generators inside the guns?
Why do people like the V2 so much? I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm genuinely wondering. I mean, the cannons are cool I guess, and the color scheme is fine, but in terms of design it kinda looks like that fat-ish kid that always got picked last in gym class because not only was he out of shape, he also was sorta useless and clumsy.
I guess I can get it tho if it's just because ppl like Uso (I don't particularly care for Uso either (I think he's fine, I don't think he's the coolest, but I don't think he's the lamest either), but I can get people getting attached to a suit through getting attached to its pilot)
This is like saying "why did they even build shit like the space-x shuttle and the 777 when they have the f-35's just lying around." The world is a big place dipshit. Different people design machines for different reasons in different regions and eras. Seriously why have you decided to stump yourself here?
>Why do people like the V2 so much?
I'd say it was the Beam Wings, primarily. It hadn't been done before -- and those things could extend for MILES.
>I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm genuinely wondering. I mean, the cannons are cool I guess, and the color scheme is fine, but in terms of design it kinda looks like that fat-ish kid that always got picked last in gym class because not only was he out of shape, he also was sorta useless and clumsy.
Are you talking about the V2 Assault-Buster? Because the vanilla V2 is pretty sleek.
>I guess I can get it tho if it's just because ppl like Uso (I don't particularly care for Uso either (I think he's fine, I don't think he's the coolest, but I don't think he's the lamest either), but I can get people getting attached to a suit through getting attached to its pilot)
Uso was pretty damn awesome, and the MS was technologically unprecedented (what with the Minovski Drives).
Personally, I think the V has a better aesthetic than the V2, but I love the V2's Minovski Drives/Beam Wing generators. That's why I like the "Second V" concept, because it's pretty much the V with V2 wings.
>That's why I like the "Second V" concept, because it's pretty much the V with V2 wings.
That's the V2AB, hon. Don't let the shield fool your eyes; its body profile only slightly changes in width despite the additional equipment.
Now, whether the vanilla V2 LOOKS clumsy or not is your own opinion, but unless your standards of being-in-shape is impossibly high, it's nowhere near out-of-shape and considering the feats Uso did with it, it's nowhere near useless either.
>Plus, they got the coloring right on the Second V. That's how the V should have been colored. Dat blue on dem shoulders and knees... Yummy.
I fucking love the double V that the V2 has.
My associates of an African American persuasion.
Given the insane, obscene, nonsensical, berzerko power level of the Twin Buster Rifle, why in the world did they decide it needed a power-up?!?
How the Wing Zero (and Wing) should have been colored.
Well, I meant the assault buster for sure, and I like the regular V2 better, and yeah the wings of light are sorta cool (tho I like the backpack-thruster-thing they come out of a lot better than the actual wings).
As far as the chubiness, I think it's the face vents and the helmet being so roundish. It's also thicker in general than I would expect for a suit carrying that sleek a backpack and all those triangle-ish angles in the torso.
Like, it looks like it wants to be a gottagofast mech, with the V theme and the cool backpack, but then it's still trying to be a roundish-not-as-sharp-cause-sharpness-is-less-good "protagonist mech". So I guess it's the clash that doesn't sit well with me.
In a sense, I feel like the Blitz (from Seed) is a somewhat-better-achieved V2 gundam, bar the color scheme. Of course, in a different sense (the "protag mech with firepower and well-roundedness" sense) it obviously doesn't.
>Blitz (from Seed) is a somewhat-better-achieved V2 gundam
>As far as the chubiness, I think it's the face vents and the helmet being so roundish. It's also thicker in general than I would expect for a suit carrying that sleek a backpack and all those triangle-ish angles in the torso.
>Like, it looks like it wants to be a gottagofast mech, with the V theme and the cool backpack, but then it's still trying to be a roundish-not-as-sharp-cause-sharpness-is-less-good "protagonist mech". So I guess it's the clash that doesn't sit well with me.
Actually, Anon, I agree with you. I always felt like the V2's head didn't match it's body.
>real swords > lightsaber ripoffs
I suppose now's a bad time to remind 08th MS Team used beam sabers and even made a plot point of their use in one episode, huh?
To say nothing for the fact that Barbatos's backstory is kind of suggesting a possible lineage of 'laser spewing magic angels (ftfy) of death' before it got its ass to Mars.