So in response to this thread >>51211744 let's see if it's possible to actually discuss jazz on /mu/.
I chose this album because hopefully we've all heard it and have some kind of opinion on it.
So what is your opinion on it? What is your favorite part of the composition? Do you think it deserves all the recognition and praise it receives? What do you think makes it special or not special? How does it compare to Mingus's other works? Do any other jazz composers have works that are comparable to this?
As a huge Mingus fan i don't rate this album as highly as people do. Maybe at the time it was released cause a huge impact by the innovation of having avant-gard collective improvisation rooted more folk/blues jazz than the more inaccessible Avant-garde freejazz. Also because it was his last conceptional recording.
In my opinion the real absurd genius of Mingus shows up in the 1956-60 period:
Pithecanthropus Erectus (1956, Atlantic)
The Clown (1957, Atlantic)
Mingus Three (1957, Jubilee)
Tijuana Moods (RCA, 1957 )
East Coasting (1957, Bethlehem)
A Modern Jazz Symposium of Music and Poetry (1957, Bethlehem)
Jazz Portraits: Mingus in Wonderland (1959, United Artists)
Blues & Roots (1959, Atlantic)
Mingus Ah Um (1959, Columbia)
Mingus Dynasty (1959, Columbia)
Pre-Bird (aka Mingus Revisited) (1960, Mercury)
Mingus at Antibes (1960, Atlantic)
Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus (1960, Candid)
Mingus! (1960, Candid)
Reincarnation of a Lovebird (1960, Candid).
Listen those in chronological order is mind blowing seeing how he fast his musicality were developing.
Yes indeed. Practically every track got some political/poetic subtext. Also Reincarnation of a Lovebird is probably my favorite Mingus composition, the bebop collage technique he used in the introduction in the song is still one of the few examples we have of this compositional technique in jazz. Also i loved how his work dedicated to Bird was not an generic bebop composition but it was an truly Mingus styled work.
I honestly don't see why people praise this one so much, and would quite agree with this man >>51213572
I've been relistening to pic related recently, definitely one of the best albums I've heard from this year
I need more stuff that is as "explosive" as Duke Ellington's At Newport. Especially Festival Junction.
do you use any blog in particular? i download mostly from repuplicofjazz , i used to download from prestoventanilla/musicaquecuelga but they stoped doing releases. Googling is hard because of the links you find are already dead.
try this, I think the two ambums have kind of the same feeling you're looking after
there was the blog lanquidity, but it was sadly suppressed some weeks ago
Hey! I remember you picking this up off my chart back when I used to frequent chart threads. man it's been a while.
What quality exactly are you looking at? Big dynamic shifts and cresendos or the general big band interplay where there's lots of stuff going on with calls and responses and musicians playing off each other?
can someone explain to me why this album is not shit? they just play random shit all the time, without any context, and without giving it a rest. Also, Albert's tone is awful.
And i actually like free jazz.
I wish Mingus's scores and sketches were made available to study. I'd love to have the score of Black Saint. There's a huge collection of Mingus's handwritten music in the Library of Congress but Sue Mingus keeps a pretty tight lid on it.
I think it's time somebody wrote an in-depth study of Mingus's compositions an made some of these charts available.
>Sue Mingus keeps a pretty tight lid on it
Any particular reason? I can't see why it'd be bad for her if they were released. Surely that'd just generate more interest in his music.
dunno, I usually listen to this album with two sources : drums + bass providing some kind of abtract yet solid background to get a free spirit like is Ayler's sax to lay on it
I also like Ayler's tone, it looks like it's tortured and still it's convulsive and emotional as hell
Hey, it's you! Nice to hear from you again.
That's probably my favorite Jazz album.
>What quality exactly are you looking at?
I don't know what the right word is, but this is my favorite part from the album.
It's very intense!
I also like how fast and upbeat it is with the extreme dynamics included. Didn't really noticed the interplay thing though. It seems I have difficulties getting into the improvisation thing.
why are you assmad because of people nicely asking for music and saying precisely what they're looking for, there are much worse in the so called sharethreads that end on 200+ beggings without any benefit for discussion
I'm not sure.. I know she works pretty hard to prevent piracy and unauthorized recording/performance of his music so I guess it goes along with that.
From what I hear, she's receptive to research and I think she lets people publish small bits of his sketches in music for scholarly theses and things like that, so I think if someone were intending to write a serious study of his music she'd probably be open to that.
Giving and receiving recs can lead to discussions from time to time.
It's not like me asking for recs will make the jazz fanbase on /mu/ go to shit or anything like that. It could even attract more people (which is suspect is a good thing).
well to each one his pleasure I guess (I'm myself not a really big fan of free jazz), but I wouldn't know how to describe Aylert's playing (and even more since english isn't my first language). to me it looks like a snake that would have poisonned himself convulsing to death, but with the kind of superpower that dying beings can develop sometimes, I don't know if the image makes a lot of sense but I think it is how I can put words on this music
I think the original scores/sketches of Mingus are probably unintelligible. From what i've read from his bandmates a lot of the arrangement / composition decisions were given vocally to the musicians. Also he was pretty big on collective improvisation as part of the composition.
But there is a Fake book which is reliable ( my friends say, i don't own it ): http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Mingus-More-Than-Books/dp/0793509009/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415313146&sr=1-3&keywords=mingus
these sheets are good, the Real Book Mingus parts are a fucking disgrace, the student who transcribe that should be spanked.
you're welcome ! if you want a second album with this same feeling to continue your evening with, I would suggest this one I uploaded some time ago
Yvan Capelle - Captain Grisou 5tet
Unintelligible might be an exaggeration. I'm sure they'd provide some insight, at least with some of his compositions. I'm pretty sure the catalogue of the "Mingus Collection" at the LOC is available online and when I looked at it it seemed pretty extensively organized and labeled.
I wonder if the vault also includes rehearsal recordings, unused studio takes, or other examples of him giving direction to his ensembles. Anything like that would probably be just as valuable to a researcher, if not more valuable.
The kind of general thing people will rec is Mingus because he took a huge amount of inspiration form Ellington. You've also still got plenty of dynamic range and cresendoing but it's usually done with repeated ostinatos and melodies being piled on top of each other.
I think I may have reced you the later one there before but the part after the bass solo may interest you.
You may wanna try this.
Lot's of build up and release but with a bit of a rock/funk backbeat without being fusion. It gets a bit more free towards the middle of the song and stylistically it's different to Ellington's stuff.
Beyond that, Ellington's discog in general is pretty bloody fantastic.
These period i listed is where Mingus as a arranger/composer is at his peak. The big impact of Mingus in the jazz history is how he developed the medium ensemble format. Also Mingus was famous for having political/critical stances on his music ( something rather difficult in instrumental/jazz music ), the albums in this period are the most loaded in that aspect also.
Black Sinner is not an bad album by any means, i just don't think it's one of his best works. In the avant-gard department i don't think he or his group really shines among the other people in that genre.
Oh but agreed about the Hal Leonard Real Book versions of Mingus tunes. I remember when I first started playing jazz and got my Real Book, and Mingus Ah Um was one of my favorite albums... I tried to play some of the tunes from the lead sheets and even I could tell they were pretty far off.
This is pretty fun. I'm not sure how much of it is Jazz though.
The sun is still up where I live, but thanks anyways!
Yeah, I do remember hearing some similarities when listening to Black Saint, but I haven't listened to it in over a year.
Thanks for those links, I will take my time to listen to those.
Theme de Yoyo is fantastic so far! Really crazy I love it! The Free moments work pretty well too, wow, this is amazing!
>Beyond that, Ellington's discog in general is pretty bloody fantastic.
I have only listened to Money Jungle, but didn't really liked it. Maybe because there was no Brass, which is the main reason I loved At Newport.
>mfw the intro of this video
>These period i listed is where Mingus as a arranger/composer is at his peak. The big impact of Mingus in the jazz history is how he developed the medium ensemble format. Also Mingus was famous for having political/critical stances on his music ( something rather difficult in instrumental/jazz music ), the albums in this period are the most loaded in that aspect also.
It sounds like you're more interested in the impact his music had on society than what's actually on the records and how much you enjoy them.
When I'm listening to Black Saint, I'm not thinking about how the album impacted society. I'm thinking about how much I love the tone of the trombone player and how cool it sounds that even when the music is shifting and changing around him, he and the other horns are keeping up that ostinato to lay down the structure and keep cohesiveness and how they pick up a similar one later on in the track to the same effect.
I'm hearing that guitar solo on the last track and thinking about how incredible it fits even though stylistically the flamenco playing is so stylistically different to the rest of the album.
I'm hearing the Piano solo at the start of track C and thinking about how much I like the melodies which you can hear quoted throughout the rest of the track during solos.
All the while through the structure keeping this very loose and wild feel that still feels really tasteful.
Oh yeah. That is a explicit example. But Mingus political stances goes more deeply into his compositions, even stuff like collective improvisation is somewhat rooted in his political views of "every voice to be heard". Also he was particularly vocal about his political stances and criticism, remember this was in a time where racial black tension was at it highest.
Mingus is definitely a musician where learning the historical/biographical context of his compositions enriches the composition tremendously.
Mingus was a great man for quotes and stories. One of my favourites was when he was asked about his influences and he said "Duke Ellington and church".
There's a good story behind the Money Jungle sessions too. He played bass for it and walked out of the sessions because he was pissed off at the drummer Max Roach for his playing and Ellington for not using any of his compositions. Ellington had to run down the street after him to convince him to finish the recording. After that he recorded the title track and you can hear him picking the strings with his finger nails.
They were supposed to do like three other albums but none of them could be convinced to work together again.
You should check out Dave Holland's large ensemble recordings. Especially since you're into fun time signatures.
Probably not the best example but the best one I could find on YouTube quickly
He didn'tlike his playing. Not quite sure exactly which track but you can kind of understand with tracks like A little Max. He sounds the most off on the tracks where the playing styles don't mix well.
Albums like this by a different artist? Already heard man-child and liked it.
I guess so. Fun time signatures, fast and upbeat tempos, and extreme dynamics are what I like most.
Not even 10 seconds in and I'm already loving it! This is really fun!
I feel like a little child in a candy shop where I can eat everything I want right now because of all the awesome jazz recs I have been getting right now!
Oh yeah man. In that time Jazz musicians made money by releasing records not touring, so they keep recording and recording. It was normal for musicians release 3-4 albums a year. In Mingus is more impressive because he was a fucking monster composer/arranger , these weren't simply jam-sessions recording, these are authorial albums.
Plus >dat Alex Sipiagin
Interestingly I think both Holland and Sipiagin are VERY influenced by Mingus in terms of composition and counterpoint. I read in an interview once where Holland described his music as "closed-form composition with an open-form approach" and he talked about how that approach was really built on Mingus's open-ended idea of composition and improvisation as composition.
Have you heard of OJM? it's this jazz group in Portugal named orquestra de jazz matosinhos, and they have three albums (on spotify anyway) each featuring a lead player. There's one with chris cheek, Kurt rosenwinkel, and joao paulo da esteves da silva. This band has vivid compositions, incredible musicians, it's a shame they're not talked about more
Oh yeah I love the Kurt Rosenwinkel + OJM record. I'll have to check out the other two though. The Chris Cheek one sounds interesting.
Have you heard Chris Potter's album with the DR Big Band? It's another favorite of mine with fantastic Holland-influences counterpoint.
Me too. Probably one of my all time favorite soloists on any instrument. Although he's not necessarily one of my favorite composers. Transatlantic is his best compositional work I think, although The Sirens was pretty good. He's currently working on his next ECM record, hopefully to be released next summer or fall.
that's exciting. Who else has come out with stuff this year? I haven't listened to mark turner's new thing but muh altissimo. Brad mehldau's album with mark guiliana (their band is called mehliana) taming the dragon is really intense. It's my aoty.
I thought the Mehldau record was kind of underwhelming. It had some good moments though. I liked Mark Turner's record more than I was expecting to. Avishai Cohen really impressed me. I saw that group live about a month ago and it was a good show.
Probably forgetting a few but here are some other good ones from this year
Brian Charette- The Question That Drives Us
Misha Tsiganov- The Artistry of the Standard
Opus 5- Progression
Andrew Rathbun- Numbers and Letters
Justin Robinson- Alana's Fantasy
Tord Gustavsen Quartet - Extended Circle
Keith Jarrett & Charlie Haden - Last Dance
Eric Revis- In Memory of Things Yet Seen
Mike Dirubbo- Threshold
Wolfgang Muthspiel- Driftwood
Peter Brendler- Outside the Line
Brice Winston- Child's Play
I haven't heard David Virelles' new record yet but it sounds really cool.
I didn't really see it as a jazz album but that's semantics I guess. I thought it was pretty cool on first listen but I haven't had any desire to listen to it again. I probably would have to listen again to really give a good opinion on it though.
When I heard the album the main thing that struck me was how fun it sounded like it was to play, I know that Mingus was a huge perfectionist and probably made the band rehearse it until they were sick of it but the finished product just sounded that way to me. It actually made me more motivated to play my clarinet again. I also love how dense it sounds compared to the other jazz albums I've listened to (in my admittedly limited experience), the droning layers that swell in and out on the first track just enthralled me on the first listen.
My favourite part has to be the Soprano Sax solo on Track A, honourable mentions include the trumpets bursting in after this solo and the piano led openings of Tracks B and C. Mingus's bass work shifting behind the scenes is also very enjoyable when concentrated on.
Which of his work would you say is the most worthwhile of a listen? Also what other jazz artists have the dense sound I mentioned earlier?
Counterpoint is when two or more independent melodies are sounding at the same time and together they outline the underlying harmony
Closed vs open form can mean a few different things depending on the kind of music you're playing but here I think Dave Holland means open form as a song with no set structure or prearranged pattern, and closed form as having some kind of structure and layout to the piece.
hi jtg you reced me destinations unknown by alex sipiagin a few weeks ago and i liked it a lot but i didn't really hear much counterpoint on it. did i just miss it or is there not that much counterpoint on that album? oh and you reced him to me bc i said i liked woody shaw but it didn't really remind me of shaw at all either
I know exactly what parts of the album you're talking about mang. I know everybody says BSATSL is entry level but it's been one of my favorite jazz albums no matter how many others I listen to.
Can I get some black power jazz recs?
Y'know, soulful, powerful, and proud Jazz music
You should listen to it again. Or 10 more times. I think the first time I heard it I didn't even realize what I'd heard but I'm pretty sure I listened to it again immediately after I'd finished it. There is definitely a lot of counterpoint going on.
On Videlles, the main melody is played by the trumpet, with alto playing a countermelody, then they play through the melody again with a third melody entering on top, played by muted trumpet an flute. It's a good example of three voice counterpoint. Tempest in a Tea Cup also has a really cool contrapuntal interlude in the middle, all three of the horns pass around this really simple theme in different intervals and it creates the harmony. Fermata Scandola also has some pretty cool two and three part counterpoint going on in its melody.
As for the Woody Shaw influence, yeah it's not especially prominent on Deatinations Unknown other than just in Sipiagin's playing. If you want to hear him taking more of a Shaw approach to the music you should check out pic related. The tunes are very straight ahead in the way that Shaw would do them and Mulgrew Miller really adds a special element to this one. He played piano on Shaw's recordings pretty regularly in the 70's. Check this album out though, the whole band is just on fire on almost every tune.
If there is one album everyone should listen of Mingus is the Ah Um album, no doubt.
But as "dense" you mean by lots of instruments playing together ? If that i recommend you to listen modern big bands ensembles. Since you are a woodwind player i recommend you to listen Bob Mintzer big band.
In Latin -us -a and -um are the masculine, feminine, and neuter noun endings so when learning a new adjective or noun you start with the masculine ending and then usually say -ah -um after it to show that it could be in any of those forms.
Then again it's been 6 years since my last Latin class so that might not be 100% accurate. But that's the gist of it.
This is what comes to mind the most.
Fairly different but there are certain similarities.
i was not in love with black saint. (great album artwork as far as jazz covers with peoples faces go. its pretty appealing for some reason). i much prefer ah um. im more into accessible jazz though. i need something that is easy enough to listen to but also interesting enough to not bore me (this usually ends in me liking shorter albums)
but yeah two of my favorites are stone flower and pic related
I guess the dense parts I'm mainly referring to are the discordant droning bits near the start, that as well as the density is what I liked. I'll check out your recommendation though, thanks.
>someone posts this
>damn, this is good
>get to when i fall in love
>i literally (figuratively) melt
>this is the song i've been searching for my whole life
>fast forward to film class, two weeks ago
>we watch fatal attraction
>it comes on during a scene leading up to a sex scene
m-muh hipster credibility
How can you people stand to listen to this shit when good recordings of Western Art Music are so readily available? I mean I could see if you were poor and only jazz and hip hop were available. I guess I'd listen to shit jazz over shit hip hop. But how can you really think jazz is better than truly great composers?
I love Coltrane, specially this, can anyone recommend similar jazz? smooth and "soft"?
I already heard Kind of Blue, Soultrane that are also sort of similar. Anything else?
I recently took a closer listen to Third stream jazz, after having only heard Miles Ahead and a few Duke Ellington compositions. I sought out some help on the Internet and found out about Stan Kenton and the "City Of Glass" EP.
This EP is fantastic. It has completely changed my idea of Third stream and revitalised interest in the genre completely. I can't wait to hear more. Holy shit, you guys. I am hopefully not the only one, am I? If there are any experts present, what other albums or EPs should I listen to?
Perhaps. It just seemed as a lot of people talking about Third stream jazz talked about various Stan Kenton releases too, including City Of Glass. I guess I was a bit surprised as that EP and albums like Miles Ahead sounded very differently but I didn't really connect it to progressive jazz in the first instance. Either way then, how about some progressive jazz recommendations then? I'll take all that I can get.
Check out the 50's output of both Chico Hamilton's quintet and Jimmy Giuffre. They're not quite as obvious in their classical influence as Stan Kenton maybe but the way they utilize baroque style counterpoint is great.
Also pic related is a favorite of mine. It's a Bulgarian vocal jazz group and on this album they do really cool jazz versions of Baroque compositions.
I really love Charlie Parker's Jam Session and Mingus at Carnegie Hall. Are there any other good albums with long virtuosic bebop jams? Most bebop albums bore me since it's like 2.5 minute songs played straight. I want something that really swings.
there is a lot. Those classic Bebop albums by Bird & Diz are short more due the nature of recordings in those days. The way how they actually played was endless choruses all night.
If you are into really swinging bop i recommend you to start listening to the Hardbop;
Oh believe me. I am quite well listened. I just like extended jams and don't like short recordings as much for their limitations. I like hard bop, but it's more bluesy than jammy. Diz's live recordings from the late 50s are some of my favorites, but never quite got a taste for his studio stuff. Same with Bird.
I love that album too. Dave Brubeck is some of the prettiest jazz. Also Something Else by Adderly, which is basically the Kind of Blue band by any other name. I've always thought Stan Getz and Joe Henderson had very beautiful tone - the latter is a great sessionman on pic related.
I think you have a misconception about Hardbop. The genre is extremely broad, people tend to think Hardbop is about that gospel/blues blend, but that is not al at.. It's basically the continuation of Bebop tendencies of hyping up the level of complexity in harmony/rhythm/virtuosity. Both Bebop and Hardbop are extremely bluesy by nature, probably 30-40% of what Charlie Parker recorder was based on the blues form ( Bird himself did lots of blues gigs before landing a jazz gig ).
In the Hardbop era you will have the language of Bebop applied in many different scenarios from extremely simple gospel/blues tunes ( ex: the preacher ) to huge leaps in harmonic complexity ( giant steps ).
>there was the blog lanquidity
the blog author posts on this board in these threads sometimes
>Sue Mingus keeps a pretty tight lid on it.
i can't see how she can have any control over it since she sold it to the library of congress in the 90s - pls elaborate
i think richard davis must have been kind of a nightmare for any drummer to deal with