What do you think of Microtonal Music, /mu/? On a microtonal guitar the the frets (half steps) are divided up further. Here's an example :
It just sounds like that nigger is out of tune.
It could be good for some uses, like a horror movie score or some dark simple melodic line, but using it like this just sounds silly.
Sounds like a beginner trying to learn a classical piece.
holy fucking shit do you guys understand anything about music
I personally find the 43-tone scale to be pretty interesting, would like to get my hands on some instruments that could do it
I was wondering the other day if someone had developed an instrument like this
I like putting my guitar slightly out of tune sometimes so this interests me
but this video sucked
this is better
Neat, but what's so difficult about just bending the string? Half-step bends require very little skill as it is, quarter-steps should be even easier.
I guess it's useful if you're really into atonal shit.
Precision becomes more important when dealing with microtones, since it's easier for things to become muddy. Hypothetically a perfect player could just use a fretless guitar though, yes.
It's a cool concept, the only problem is the way with how our ears are wired, it's just going to constantly sound out of tune. Unless someone grows up listening to microtonal music, it's just gonna sound bad.
Out of the microtonal music I've heard, little of it is pleasing.
I know it's supposed to sound different, but like >>53242924 said, most of the time it sounds off. But that's because we're accustomed to the cannon: western 12edo.
This one is pretty good, for example. >>53242755
Since this kind of music rises new composition challenges it's normal that a good bunch of it sounds bad. If people dig into it more often I'm sure we would get some amazing music out of it.
11edo and 31edo are the ones I've enjoyed the most so far.
i can second >>53242952 you get used to it faster than you think. its not always so in your face like the OP video. something like this is pretty easy to listen to even iif you are not used to it
Nice. I should check out some Haba. Having those tones on a guitar is really cool.
Unfortunately microtonal music is still in the shadows. Partch is my favorite composer, but I've found precious little music that makes use of it. The problem is that people aren't used to the sound, so even though it sound completely natural to me they'll think it 'sounds like shit lmao' because it doesn't conform to western standards.
e.g. I thought >>53242637 would be pretty accessible
but I still got told that.
Carlos' Beauty In The Beast is another recommendation.
I hope to see more musicians dabbling in this but unless someone really popular picks it up I doubt microtonal music will gain more ground. A shame, really, when you think of the possibilities.
Any more microtonal music like this album?
>being this close minded
ye ain't becoming patrish this way anon-san
Jokes aside, it can be really rewarding. You should try it out.
Harry Partch, Bjorn Fongaard, Orchestre de la Radio-Télévision polonaise de Cracovie, Syzygys, Ivan Wyschnegradsky, the list can go on...
I wouldn't defend that video, it's definitely horrible.
Microtonal music is pretty much endless in possibilities thanks to all the weird scales people create.
Some of them are really pretty. A good chunk are not pretty at all.
So mostly yes. I see it as applying western musical techniques to his style. I'm not saying Jandek invented microtones or anything but he's the one of the most notable and one of the first
This Ivan Wyschnegradsky piece is my favorite microtonal piece so far.
And then theres this death metal band that plays 16-tone equal temperament seven-string guitars
i should add, you said applying music theory to his style. microtonal music isnt a genre, a style or an asthetic. its just a chosen scale with smaller increments than the western standard. it can sound like anything. thats why i urged you to listen to some of the other examples.
Bigger increments too.
8edo exists, for example.
>completely impractical as a scale
um no. why do you think this?
>one of the first to bring it to prominence in the US
hes not really prominent though and there were tons of contemorary composes in the US doing all sorts of nonsesne music in the US before him.
>muh western ears
>anything outside 12TET sounds "out of tune"
plebs indoctrinated into 12TET. I'm laughing my ass off here
eastern tunings sound exotic and unusual to our ears, but I prefer them to boring old 12T.
posting some goodies:
>those microtonal solo lines - pseudo greek influence
>microtonal organ which can also play the odd JI perfect candce
>based as fuck bulgarian vocal music with microtonal trills and solo lines
I love these guys
its an expansion on standard music theory. western composers have been fooling around with it for a while, while turkish, indian and middle eastern music is almost never in 12TET
for example, here's a very old western piece:
Anyone who doesn't appreciate microtonal music should kindly leave back to your Kanye west and taylor swift threads. We all enjoy something different (combined with the various other musics we enjoy) and if your pleb ears can't handle it, too bad.
As much as I appreciate the idea conceptually, I am not quite sure that the way microtonality is used by musical intellectuals is actually conducive to making powerful music. I'd much prefer more organic ways of breaking free of standardized tonality (see Blue Notes.
>paying attention to what the majority of /mu/ thinks
we'd end up in a NMH and radiohead circlejerk.
no one wants that. /mu/ is a bunch of hipster teens who need educating on traditional music and music that is actually experimental. Radiohead are not experimental. once you get over you teen phase of liking pseudo experimental popular music, you can graduate to real experimental music like Xenakis, Ives and Partch. you probably have a long way to go though, and may not ever make it.
Its completely impractical because anything above a 24 note scale has incriments that are reached when someone does vibrato on an instrument. It literally exists solely for experimentation with tones and (with the way this thread is going) feeling superior. It's just not going to be enjoyable to many unless they listen to it continually, and singing it is absolutely impractical because no one is so perfect with singing pitches that the pitch doesn't move at all when they sing. So it's not going to be accepted by larger circles as long as vocals exist
>they sound out of tune
to your ears that are used to 12TET. to me they sound amazing. Beauty in the Beast is one of my favorite 5 albums of all time.
If you believe this, thats fine, just carry on. you will never know the depths of how music works.
knowledge has nothing to do with creativity.
it can have great power
oh i agreee that its not going to become top 40 or some shit like that but even keeping in under increments of a 24 note scale you still have lots to play with. it doesnt exist soley for experimentation as made evident by all the eastern cultres that use it in a normal everyday fashion.
There's a reason Microtonal music rarely gets discussed, and why practically nobody cares about it.
It's only a handful of people trying to force it on here, and I want those people to leave /mu/ because they don't belong here.
most modern orchestras are fine with playing microtones. there's a commonly accepted notation system for them too. I've had pieces played that involved microtones. really not that hard.
Just intonation was how music started with the ancient greeks. look at pic related. thats what just intonation looks like in our standard 12TET score. since the 17thC 12TET became a thing, allowing composers to modulate to any key without things sounding strained.
Just intonation was the first western way to tune music, thanks to Pythagoras. Equal temperament was the imposter (who has been accepted as the norm since the 17th century) Nothing wrong with 12TET, but JI and microtonal music allow you a new depth of expression and purity.
>people discussing music that's actually interesting
>I want them to leave
you're right, we dont belong here. 90% of this board is close minded as fuck, listening to ITAOTS over and over and incapable of appreciating traditional or art music.
personally I want all the popular music plebs to leave. imagine what this board would be like if Kanye, radiohead, taylor swift, etc. were never discussed, and only interesting and quality music was talked about. I'd be in heaven.
good to see this thread has angered the plebs though.
I promise I'm not completely against microtonal music but some people in this thread are treating it like it's the birth of a revolution or something, which what led me to say my original statement, which I concede was partially misguided. But I like composers such as La Monte Young and John Corliagno that use quarter tones. I just don't think intervals smaller than that have a very useful purpose in music
i rest my case.
op delete this thread and start again.
your shit video has destroyed microtuning's quest for mainstream popularity (except for whirling faggots and whatnot). how does that make you feel op?
like a dirty whore?
its ok anon, your ears are so used to 12 tone equal temperament that you cant see what music has always been: natural.
look at these traditional instruments. they're microtonal as fuck, and thats the way its always been
I feel sorry for all you guys stuck in 12TET. its a great system, but there's more to music than that.
This is bullshit.
This is bullshit too. Popular music isn't bad, the board has a diverse taste and there's plenty of good discussion. You sound just like the elitist morons he's complaining about.
Keep your cool.
how do some instruments even go about playing those, though> seems easy as hell for string instruments with no frets, but harps? piano? wind instruments i guess you could "fake" with embouchure (as i know of 0 people who would intentionally detune their clarinet or whatever just for a few notes), but again how do you do that?
>Its completely impractical because anything above a 24 note scale has incriments that are reached when someone does vibrato on an instrument.
Part of the purpose of vibrato is to mask poor intonation. If you need very accurate intervals, it's inappropriate to use vibrato.
>It literally exists solely for experimentation with tones and (with the way this thread is going) feeling superior.
It really doesn't, and you obviously don't know what you're talking about. There are many worthwhile intervals that aren't well represented in simpler temperaments.
> It's just not going to be enjoyable to many unless they listen to it continually,
It's not that hard to get used to it
> and singing it is absolutely impractical because no one is so perfect with singing pitches that the pitch doesn't move at all when they sing
I actually agree on that point
>So it's not going to be accepted by larger circles as long as vocals exist
One thing that people did to record Vincentino pieces is to record the parts and then correct them in Melodyne. It's impractical for performance in general, but we have computers. It's not like it's impossible.
exactly. they hear the words "art music" and instantly they get butthurt and think someones saying their music isn't art.
its just a label m8. perhaps if you listened to some music outside of popular you'd understand how much great music lies out there, either on the traditional side, or the art music side.
wind instruments and brass are easy, but piano and harps can't. there are microtonal pianos around (pic)
Fact: the real plebs are the ones who can't understand that popular music can be of comparable literary merit to art music
Popular music can be quite interesting simply because of how it is able create instantly pleasing melodied from chords that were used hundreds of years ago. Popular music and baroque music aren't that different in reality. Similar chord structure and harmony is used in both styles. Popular music is culturally significant because of how it connects the people of today and the people of the past. You may not find it musically compelling, but it's an important part of human culture, especially in Europe and North America
>he can't into contemporary classical
go back to your kanye west thread lol
you dont have to stay here. I understand microtonal music is challenging for people used to 12TET.
true test. If you can't listen to this in its entirety, you must leave this thread:
As an orchestral performer, I very much prefer vibrato over no vibrato because the pitch sounds more mature to my ears, so I guess that's just a preference thing
I guess this is a preference thing too because I don't see why a melody in one octave would need 40 unique notes.
I can't ever get completely used to it because I have "perfect pitch" in A440 and am acccustomed to a twelve tone scale, but I'm guessing others would find it easier. I can kind of alter what I'm accustomed to if I don't listen to anything else for a while
Impractical and impossible are different
is that the only contemporary "piece" you can think of?
the idea that the sounds of the natural world around you could be music was revolutionary.
Cage was an inventor, not really a composer.
This is the kind of modern stuff I like:
spectralism is based as fuck, and another bunch of composers who tend to shun 12TET in favor of the overtone series.
>your ears are so used to 12 tone equal temperament
>your ears are not used to it
This is starting to become a meme.
I'm a grown man. My ears are fully developed and evolved.
How the fuck could my ears suddenly evolve to start hearing something in these compositons that isn't out of tune pretentious drivel?
Explain that logic to me. Maybe there is a reason why this shit is only played by these natives in their fucking villages out in the middle of nowhere. If it was that good wouldn't we hear about it more here? Wouldn't we start adapting their music into our own?
They have their cultural music, cool. But I'm not a hipster like the rest of you who try to force it on us westerners. What if the natives don't actually like you doing this, what if they want to keep their little pretentious microtonal music club to themselves?
>I very much prefer vibrato over no vibrato because the pitch sounds more mature to my ears, so I guess that's just a preference thing
Yeah but this is partly an adaptation to the limitations of 12 equal and orchestral performance. With very accurate intervals, it actually sounds better with no vibrato.
>I don't see why a melody in one octave would need 40 unique notes.
You don't use them all at once, just as you don't generally use the entire 12 tone scale at once.
>microtonal music is essentially just about altering western pitches to create dissonance
No, microtonal music also provides a great deal of opportunities to make more consonant music than 12 equal. It depends on how it's used.
Yeah but it's also nearly impossible to have that great pitch on a standard violin. On my instrument (bass), it's more reasonable, but smaller instruments are almost never going to be 100% accurate in pitch
I guess that makes sense. But I still think you can do plenty with just 24 notes in a scale
Well, it's both, but the thing is that the perception of dissonance doesn't always correspond to the objective quality of dissonance. People who are used to equal temperaments often consider tempered thirds to be more consonant than just thirds, even though tempered thirds are objectively much more dissonant.
>imagine what this board would be like if Kanye, radiohead, taylor swift, etc. were never discussed
I came to /mu/ years ago expecting people to be discussing unusual and interesting music. lo and behold it was full of top 40 popular music. I was disappointed.
There are a few bastions of interesting discussion, metal jazz and classical threads usually deliver this, and the /trad/ threads that hampus has been running recently (woefully ignored by most of /mu/) and these threads.
can you imagine if top40 popular music wasn't mentioned here? It would be amazing!
>My ears are fully developed and evolved.
thats right, you've grown up with 12TET temperament on the radio and albums you listen to. if you grew up in the middle east of india or even bulgaria, you'd be much more open to the non western scales and inflections.
this isn't a secret club, its just another facet of music, one that's been around since the dawn of time. its the opposite of pretentious.
what instrument do you play?
as a horn player i could see doing it with embouchure (and cupping/muting with my hand in the bell, so yes i have it easy), otherwise, i feel like having a few period instruments on hand would make it easier (again, as a hornist, i'm thinking "natural" horns - no valves, just different crooks for different keys)
>I just don't think intervals smaller than that have a very useful purpose in music
The problem is that you're assuming the smallest intervals are actually used as intervals. They're generally not.
I'm primarily a composer, but I play keyboard, guitar, cello, vocals, drumkit, theremin and accordion.
microtonal music isn't always easy, and some orchestras wont enjoy playing it, the same reason many people dont like to listen to it, they prefer to play a 12TET major chord and sound "western correct" than plunge the depths of microtonal expression
>that shit is easy and not un-enjoyable.
great, glad to have you. good to see you passed the test.
I'm enjoying that haba piece. cool to see a quarter tone fretted guitar. would love to play on one
>Yeah but it's also nearly impossible to have that great pitch on a standard violin.
Yeah, so forget acoustic instruments. Use computers.
>But I still think you can do plenty with just 24 notes in a scale
24 equal doesn't add many useful intervals or fix any of the problems that 12 equal has. It was only explored out of convenience in the first place. It's misguided to think of it as the "next step". 19 or 31 are far better choices.
I think your post is a bit of a hyperbole. I have found a lot of unusual and experimental music that I really quite enjoy. The problem with being on /mu/ for a while is that artists like Animal Collective, Sufjan Stevens, and Aphex Twin start to seem pretty basic when in fact, they are very odd to the average person's ears. But yeah, there are people who do spam top 40 that should leave
I "play" it without touching it. but its still playing
here's an instrument that is capable of playing microtones, although its hard enough to play in 12TET let alone microtones.
>wahhhh it sounds bad
>wahhh my tonality hegemony
i hope adorno comes back from the dead to rape your stupid ignorant asses
Electronic microtonal bass music
This page has some links on creating microtonal electronic music
i really hated playing atonal music in college. i'm much happier playing 20th century wind band standards. i am not sure if atonal would be on the same line as microtonal music, i call it atonal because these composers were american, and i am american, so i am used to hearing very tonal music. it took me a long time to enjoy jazz for this reason even though i've been a musician for more than half my life
Wow, way to completely not understand the point being made, that sure showed them.
Your hearing, like all other senses, relies on pattern recognition. If a given type of pattern is unfamiliar your brain will have a difficult time processing it correctly and is likely to make a lot of assumptions in the process, which for hearing tends to create a "muddled" effect. It has nothing to do with physical maturity, if you aren't exposed to something like this often enough you simply will not be capable of processing it correctly. That isn't a value statement it's just a physical phenomena that happens.
What part are you not getting? The advantage of, for example, 72 equal is that you have lots of good intervals to use, like 7:5, 9:7, 7:6, 12:11, etc. that aren't available in 12 equal. You're not generally playing all the notes at once or using twelfth-tones as musical intervals themselves.
>i am not sure if atonal would be on the same line as microtonal music
It depends on the composer; some are attracted to microtonal music for tonal music with superior consonances.
>Harry Partch hated John Cage