>>55470220 When hip hop is done well the rappers usually have good phrasing, interesting lyrical wordplay and rhyme schemes, very good rhythmic sense that will play well to the beats and flow nicely, good diction, nice tone, etc. It's a lot more based on ornamentation, phrasing and rhythm so if that isn't enough for you the. You probably won't like very much hip hop because it generally doesn't strive for much harmonic or melodic complexity.
>>55470220 like y'all do realize the #1 reason madvillainy was so sick was because at the time of 2004 we were still coming down from the high of dipset and outkast and hi-end 00s rap and 00s pop was just starting to hit it's peak stride
so along comes mr. dumile to provide the complete leftfield perspective
but now it's been almost 10 years since madvillainy and the culture's completely changed. everyone and their mother have copied lofi, mumbly (not that DOOM mumbles but his copiers do), dilla-worshipping rap. DOOM releasing more music in that style and then fantano and all the internet congratulating them just goes to show that everyone is fucking irrelevant and stuck in the past
when you mention the music that's actually relevant, you get scoffed at. honestly back in 2004 only the hippest hipsters were rocking MF DOOM and the reactions were awfully similar to how i brought up Future + his league of AutoTuned disciples
something's happening. the last rick ross album has more white people who've never taken hype-rap seriously, taking hype-rap seriously. even though the last rick ross album only really had sanctified on it and nothing else. but the culture is about to dramatically shift and y'all are going to look like fucking irrelevant plebs who never knew what was up if you keep hyping this fucking lofi irrelevant pinata aesthetic
there's nothing wrong with it. it's just simple music for simple-minded people. most people don't care about harmony or melody and at the same time like the hypnotic repetition. leave us alone and let us enjoy our music, ok?
>>55470359 hat's my point! rick ross' music has always been popular, because it was riding the hype-rap aesthetic that's been slowly bubbling, but for some weird reason, his last release finally convinced white dudes on the fence about hype-rap that it was worth investigating the genre. it's not so much that ross is relevant as it is the proof that hype rap is the most relevant genre, because now stragglers are finally coming around to what most in-tune people have been rockin since gucci and young jeezy were out
>tfw gucci mane is actually the original innovator of the most relevant sub-genre in 2014
madvillainy is only overrated because people get stuck on it longer than they should have. it wasn't overrated at the time and in its own context it's still a fantastic listen. the problem is people hear it for the first time in 2015 and act like 'omg this is what rap is supposed to sound like' no bro, you're just hearing 10 year old music for the first time
rap music does something special that other genres can't. the distinct focus on rhythm provided by the artist in the form of the style of lyrical delivery, what we call "rapping" is a hypnotic experience that is pleasurable and rewarding especially when the artist is a master of their craft, it's not as easy as you might think it is to form a flow and hone your cadence in a way not only unique to you but that also utilizes rhyme scheme and literary devices effectively however you choose to do so.
I want you to think about what a 'club banger' really is. do you HAVE to listen to a 'club banger' in the club? is it possible that there's an entire mindset forming where all the newest rappers and producers are transferring the 'club banger' outside of the club? is the very act of having fun in an age of over-analysis, vague lofi and pretension actually revolutionary? is it better to have fully-formed songs over shoddy LP for-the-internet concept albums, even if there are some so-so lines? is the whole of the vibe more important than whether or not Future is dropping a pun here and there?
>>55470220 It subscribes to a culture that celebrates manhood. Even girls like some hip hop. If you're a masculine guy and you don't enjoy hip hop I don't know what to say to you. It's not as musically significant as many other genres, but the sound is that of style and testosterone. The only guys that I've met and know that don't enjoy hip hop are incredibly pretentious and not even very smart. Even the smartest people I know respect DOOM, Dilla and 2pac.
>>55470522 There is one kind of person you should avoid all musical discussion with:
- People who try to invalidate another person's opinion because they don't happen to enjoy music from a specific genre.
I'll assume that you listen to every known genre in the world else you are suggesting that hip hop has more value than other genres. Or maybe you're just another popular western music loving hypocrite.
>>55470220 honestly, to make rapping sound impressive it takes alot more than singing in other genres. in most genres lyrics are like another instrument, they take on the tone and inflection of the other instruments and allow the other instruments to dictate their pitch and rhythm. but in alot of music with rap, the lyrical content is at the forefront and in itself must carry a beat, with any good rap, the listener should be able to listen to the song without any beat and be able to pick out the rhythm, and jam to it. that is what is impressive with rap, the ability to carry a beat with your voice. and im not saying rappers are inherently more talented, i dont think so at all. but it is easier to sing to a song that's being carried by drums and bass and guitar than to rap over a beat. there's tons of shit rappers, but the one's that do it will should be respected because it's alot harder than you might think
>>55470579 i.e. how many covers of the song 'hallelujah' are there? and alot of them sound beautiful. but try taking the song gopher guts by aesop rock or kon queso by MF doom and see how many people can succesfully rap or sing over that beat and make it sound beautiful. you'd be hard pressed
>>55470538 You can defend something without using meaningless vague buzzwords. Taste is subjective, but most hip hop fans are ill equipped to discuss music in the same way that fast & furious fans will have a hard time explaining why their movies are good.
>>55470626 It's got some good points but hiphop isn't inherently masculine-sounding, that's really ignorant. Listen to Nujabes, one of the most legendary hiphop musicians and his music is way more feminine than anything. Countless other examples of this as well.
>>55470656 That's not me OP, and you're looking pretty fucking desperate at this point.
Hiphop, or "rap" as you insist on calling it, is more relevant to global culture than any of the obscure genres you're listing. Every single country on earth has a budded or growing hiphop scene, that tends to be more way more popular than their "throat-singing" scene. Thus, if someone completely discounts hiphop and doesn't even take the time to indulge in it just to at least learn about it, then they're revealing themselves as being largely ignorant about the state of music as it exists globally in 2015.
>>55470666 You have a point, I'm not >>55470626 but I wasn't set on anything longer. At its heart hip hop is about the male, it's foundation is the celebration of poor male problems (surrounding black people in the ghetto) but it has evolved beyond that. I still believe that the biggest appeal and the most celebrated "musicians" for lack of a better word adhere to the tried and true male-oriented focus.
>>55470476 >>55470555 >>55470611 Rap - hip hop subgenre centered around rapper and producer Turntablism - hip hop subgenre centred around turntablists art Instrumental - hip hop subgenre centred on beats Trip hop - hip hop subgenre centred on downtempo, jazz-, funk-, and soul-inflected experimental breakbeat music
>>55470307 >more shallow well, no way to quantify that, also quite a broad generalization >more derivative it's as original as it is derivative. It uses elements from other songs, sure, but that's part of the appeal for me - seeing how people use previous resources. A good track doesn't have a shitty sample. Also though, if you're talking about "rap" as in the delivery form, you can't say it's derivative, because the lyrics would be as derivative as anything else. Samples come as part of hip hop as a whole
>>55470656 it's not so much that you have to listen to everything to be able to make a statement on the matter it's more the idea that people should be versed in music as a whole before making statements on the matter, and hip hop, being one of the more prominent genres in recent years, shouldn't be neglected nor excluded for that purpose
you're just a tad bit frustrated, might wanna calm down a bit
>>55470709 even not on /mu/ most "hip-hop heads" are not very bright. but although there could be debate to how technically impressive hip-hop is, that doesn't mean it's not good music, or music than can evoke emotion
>Hiphop, or "rap" as you insist on calling it, is more relevant to global culture Um, no. Hiphop is more relevant to western culture. Hip hop is not very relevant to the vast majority of the world. Please tell me how much the most populous countries in China and India care about the latest Kendrick Lamar album. This is woefully ignorant.
Secondly, the cultural relevance of a genre of music should have no bearing on the personal enjoyment of it. Tibetan throat singing might be popular in the northern regions of China but that doesn't mean you're opinion is invalidated if you live their and don't enjoy it.
Thirdly, there's a difference between not actively listening to music you don't enjoy and discounting an entire genre before even hearing it. It's sad that I've needed to point this out to you, but I'm sure you've heard enough Tibetan throat singing music to disregard that "scene." You're not a hypocrite, right?
>>55470741 Nigga you couldn't rap like fucking 2Chainz if you tried your best. Just because you don't understand the culture doesn't mean you have to demean it. If you don't like it, then ignore it, bashing other people because they happen to enjoy a certain collective of sounds is the most asinine quality a person can possess. I have more respect for terrorists than fucks like you, at least they know how fucking terrible they are.
>>55470749 I'm not frustrated. It is pretty annoying when people try to invalidate your argument by attacking its non-existent tone though.
>it's more the idea that people should be versed in music as a whole before making statements on the matter
Again, I'd actually like to know your knowledge on both all "prominent" western genres and more "prominent" eastern genres. Are you also well verse in enough music to make such sweeping statements? Not that your original post suggested this, all you said is that people who don't listen to hip hop are not worth talking to.
>>55470844 actually from what i've seen and read about terrorism, a good portion of them don't have any idea that what they are doing is wrong because they are young adults that have been brainwashed since they were babies. and a good portion of the rest of them do it because of their religion and for some reason justify it. i feel like most terrorists actually think what they are doing is right , unfortunately. although i agree with everything else you said
All of rap is just a sub-genre of top-40 pop, with a "urban" paint job.
This music doesn't stand the test of time, it's a fad. That's why rappers are discussed about like fashion. Image/fashion/numbers sold are actually considered when talking about them.
Rap is just a really cheap/lazy form of music anyways. The majority of rap beats are just stealing (MUHH "SAMPLING") another artist's music, looping it over a generic drumbeat while someone raps over it. The "technical aspects" of rapping are not hard at all. That's why there's 14 year old white girls on YouTube uploading themselves flowing with ease and speed, dropping multis like it's nothing. But because they don't fit the image of a rapper, no one would take seriously. I've listened to it all from backpacker shit (cLOUDDEAD, dalek) to the "golden days" to 90's, to "experimental" (Death Grips), etc.
Rap is not quality music. It's more of a guilty pleasure, like fast food. I guess it can taste good for a little while, until you realize how cheap and unhealthy it is.
>>55470805 I never said China cares about American rap. But they definitely care about Chinese rap, which does exist and is fucking huge. Every major country has a huge rap scene, like I said. >reading comprehension
My point was that someone who "never listens to hiphop," which is the kind of person that one guy said you shouldn't argue with, is ignorant about a hugely relevant movement in modern music. Which makes their opinion inherently less valid. Tibetan throat singing isn't sweeping the globe, it's less relevant and someone discounting it is way less indicative of a disregard for music in general. It's also completely irrelevant to this discussion.
I will restate what that poster said:
>There are two kinds of people you should avoid all musical discussion with:
>People who listen exclusively to hip hop >People who don't listen to hip hop at all
If you "don't listen to hiphop at all," then you're ignorant about modern music. It's that relevant. This is a fact.
You sound very, very new to hip hop. How are you gonna talk about hype rap without Flocka?
Hype rap will die in the next 5 years. It's too reliant on similar drum samples. Everyone's doing the same shit in terms of production and there are about 5-10 year cycles on this shit. 1988-1998 was drum breaks, boom bap, and the simple programmed drum beat. 1998-2004 had the neptunes, swizz beats style stuff when drum breaks were harder to clear. Sounds dated as fuck now too. After that simple 808 clap snare bass hi hat stuff came in, southern sound, then 2010 lex luger comes around and changes the beat game. People are still using his sounds. Of course you have the outliers. FlyLo created a whole new sound back 06 and in the past 5 years all I hear on soundcloud is either clones of him or lex. We basically have three to 4 styles running right now. Trap, Wonky, House revival, and Boom Bap revival.
All are pretty much run into the ground at this point (except house revival) and since people usually take a while to catch on, I'll predict by the end of the decade we'll all be sick of it. I know I am. Maybe it'll be faster because of the advent of the internet, but who knows.
All I know is this whole trap obsession is gonna be so corny in the future. I view it as an equivalent to the 80s awful drum machines. It won't sound much different, quote me on that.
I agree with you gucci is a legend and definitely changed the game in his own right. "Hype" rap won't last that much longer in it's current form, it's need a more extreme, skilled, and artistic version if it's gonna not be laughed at in 10 years.
Daily reminder that the only people who hate rap are the nerds who were bullied in high school by those that love rap. Admit it, you don't hate it, you just try so hard not to like it because you loathe those that do, and that makes you a faggot.
Hip hop gives me a sense of self confidence that most other music never hits, I could care less about its stylistic complexity.
>>55470894 >Every major country has a huge rap scene, like I said. Sorry, do you have a citation for your bullshit claims? Hip hop scenes do exist in the likes of India, China and places like Latin America but they are not the most popular kinds of music there by FAR. Every country probably has a scene for every genre of music, that doesn't mean shit. Again, what is your knowledge of Latin music which is king in South America? I'd like to know so I can disregard your opinion by your own logic. Not that this fucking matters when it comes to your personal enjoyment of a kind of music.
>If you "don't listen to hiphop at all," then you're ignorant about modern music. It's that relevant. This is a fact.
This is hyperbole though, since everyone who makes a decision to not listen to hip hop has listened to enough of it to decide it's not for them. There's a difference between thinking your personal opinion of hip hop should apply to everyone else and personally not enjoying a type of music. Again, there are plenty of very popular and culturally relevant genres. Do you know how insanely popular nu-metal and post grunge are (or at least were about ten years ago). Can I call you ignorant working under the assumption that you don't listen to those genres at all?
>>55470957 I was getting to that, reply getting too long
>>55470931 the boom bap revival could be seen in stuff like Pinata, or Joey Badass, your old droog, and it's my personal favorite type of stuff in hip hop, but the beats will be seen lacking unless they incorporate new ideas into it, which no one seems to be doing. It will stagnate as well until someone innovates the style in that regard.
"Backpack" rap has been around since the 90s, and it's always been in the underground. It will always have that niche, but they're not capitalizing on interest right now. People like same old same old, but people really like same old with a new twist.
Of course Kanye had a big influence on the culture in general, but not many seem to ape his beats (ignoring yeezus as it utterly worthless), not that they aren't capable. It just seems people would rather make the hardest bangers a la lex luger, metro boomin, shawty redd, mike will what have you. And mike will really is just a watered down version of lex. Idk man this whole trap thing is so fucking boring. Now we have slow dark trap with Drake, Kanye, Big Sean, Rihanna, Travis Scott, and now even Earl hopping on the bandwagon. This sound be ran into the ground over the next few years, and then a new big trend will arise.
No one is combining trap and boom bap, which is to me the most promising combination. That sound would be incredible, and no one's doing it, at least not properly. And I don't necessarily mean trap drums, more like the overall sound and energy in it. Cloud rap has a ton of potential as well, but people don't take influence from Clams, as much as they do Yung Gud. Yung gud is a decent producer, but I'm telling you those trap drums are the most cliche thing to use right now. Everyone is using them. The trap hi hats are on everything.
>>55471046 not the guy you replied to but i should remind you that popularity is gauged by the number of people who listen to that type of music. saying that nu-metal and post grunge were "insanely popular" is just fucking stupid. they were fairly popular at best in certain demographics of the population, but i can almost guarantee you that more people have heard Good Kid MAAD City more than any album from any nu-metal or post grunge band you can name ( i dont really like kendrick just using an obvious example)
>>55471112 i actually quite enjoy hip-hop. but its totally true. i think ive only ever met 2 people over the age of 35 who listen to any hip-hop at all. and this is in NA where hiphop is more popular than pretty much anywhere else in the world
Rap, like all music, is just a way of telling a story, but stylized differently, musically and lyrically, in a unique and catchy way. Whether or not you enjoy it doesn't matter; others do, and that is that.
>>55471126 Sorry, maybe you're too young to know this but nu-metal and post-grunge was insanely popular in the early 2000s. I can guarantee you the average person knew more about Nickelback, Limp Bizkit or Linkin Park then whatever acclaimed indie album was popular at the time.
If you're going to pull the popularity card you should familiarize yourself with how well these bands have done. Insanely more popular than Kendrick Lamar is or ever will be.
>>55471252 not the guy youre replying to but someone who didn't realize before now that every post grunge band is fucking terrible. any actual good ones? (i really dislike foo fighters btw if you think they count). also Kid rock, really?
>>55471231 Most genres are in "every country" (though I do contest the number of rappers in places like Saudi Arabia). That doesn't mean rap is the most popular genre in those respected countries. Again, could you provide a citation that hip hop is the BIGGEST genre in the two most populous countries in the world (India and China) which easily make up over HALF of the world's population, or is this a case where western listeners are more important than eastern? You're the one who is truly ignorant.
But again, could you tell me why the fuck any of this means you should listen to a genre? Is this an appeal to popularity that doesn't even apply?
>>55471331 I'm just stating facts, anon. Cheesy pop music has been around since the music industry first came around. That's just a given. I guess I don't really know your point. Cheesy pop music is literally just mass marketed shit that gets radio play because it's easy on the ears. Hip hop is the movement, like rock was (even though they're heavily marketed garbage in the same way pop is.). It's like this; No one wanted to be a "pop" star, they wanted to be a rock star. Now, no one wants to be a "pop" star, they want to be a rapper (in general). That or a DJ.
>>55471391 not the guy youre replying to but someone who didn't realize before now that every rapper is fucking terrible. any actual good ones? (I really dislike kanye west btw if you think he counts) also, kendrick lamar, really?
>>55471426 just curious, is there an "ism" for people who don't like gays? i've never understood the "phobia" suffix. its not like people who dont like gays are actually scared of them. ive always wondered this
>>55471250 >lel >>55471254 smooth jazz isn't a big deal though. >>55471309 boom, thank you >>55471404 I'm not saying you SHOULD listen to anything. I'm just saying that when you say you think rap is not good music, there are tons of people (myself included) that don't think it's worth the time to get into a discussion with you. Ironically, I've already been doing this, but my rationale is that I'm trying to explain why this is. If you don't listen to hiphop, my opinion is that you haven't heard enough to find what you like, because it is such a sprawling and varied genre that I truly believe there is something in it for everyone. This isn't your opinion apparently, and that's okay.
First of all, all rap is memerap. Secondly, it's a genre whose mainstream presence is dictated by jewish ceo's taking advantage of the urban hood culture. Secondly, rap uses samples from songs of older generations that are undoubtedly better off without being touched by filthy coloreds.
>>55471457 Homophobia is the "ism" for discrimination against homosexuals. Phobia can be defined as either fear or aversion to, and in most cases homophobia applies to the latter. And personally, I'd say the "fear" part does often apply:
>>55471391 Kid Rock really went diamond. People loved/love him. I personally love him, devil without a cause is a good album IMO. Maybe even classic. No bullshit.
But, yeah pretty much all post grunge is awful shit, sorry anon. It's only valuable as nostalgia for me. Post grunge is usually just butt rock. Local H had that decent single, cky has some cool songs, but yeah it's pretty much a crap shoot.
Failure is "space" grunge, basically the first to do something post grungey and they're pretty good.
Nu metal usually has more good songs as opposed to post grunge, but its usually pretty shitty as well. It's all a matter of taste.
>>55471527 hmm. my question mark was to indicate that i didn't believe kid rock was post-grunge. ill admit i havent heard alot of his music, but from what i've heard i wouldn't have expected him to be classified as post-grunge
>>55471617 Dude you're acting like a retard. Kenny G and smooth jazz in general are not a big deal in the world today, which is the point of this discussion. Rap is all over the top 40 of every developed country on earth. The last Kenny G album to go over Gold was over 15 years ago. Stop baiting.
>>55471640 >they're not rapping if I say they aren't!
>>55471507 >I'm just saying that when you say you think rap is not good music, there are tons of people (myself included) that don't think it's worth the time to get into a discussion with you And that's completely retarded. You're welcome to not want to talk to me about hip hop if I don't like it. That makes sense. But you're seriously going to invalidate EVERY other opinion someone has because they don't enjoy the genre you do? That's ignorant as shit.
Again, all I can say is that if you were held to that standard, you'd instantly be ignored by the majority of the world. I could make the same argument that any genre you don't like you just don't understand since you haven't listened to enough of it yet (assuming you've yet to listen to every post grunge band ever). Citing popularity or relevance is a shitty appeal to popularity and not even true, as you can't even provide any fucking citations for your retardation.
>>55471656 >le only "developed" westernized nations are worth noting smh
btw, One Direction was the best selling artist of 2013 and Disney's Frozen soundtrack was the best selling album of 2014. Since we're appealing to popularity and relevance, I'd like to know about your personal knowledge of children's music so I can disregard everything you have to say about music.
>>55471678 You haven't said anything that makes you seem like you've heard even one single hiphop song. I've gained nothing from discussion with you besides "b-but what about Tibetan throat-singing you p-p-pleb!" If you'd had anything interesting or thoughtful to say about hiphop, positive or negative, I would have felt like this conversation wasn't in vain. However, you've proven the exact reason why we don't engage people like you, because you act like petulant children. Because you're totally delusional. Relevance to musical movements is not an appeal to popularity, it's about being aware of modern music and how its landscape is changing constantly. Rap is a huge influence on the flux of music as it exists in 2015 and to deny that is to just be insistent on your own ignorance. Go back to your wrong generation shit if you're gonna be that backwards about this.
>>55470220 A lot of rap artists are incredibly talented lyricists. While most rap is pretty trite, some is very thought-provoking and political, moreso than most rock or pop.
In addition, rap production is a really amazing artform, with characteristic tropes and techniques that even people who hate rap can appreciate. Rap drumming is really distinctive, and is emulated by a lot of non-rap artists, including Radiohead and Weezer.
>>55471752 The funny this is that I actually LIKE hip hop (listening to Jerimiah Jae right now) I just think that worldview is incredibly stupid and fucking ignorant. I will listen to what someone has to say even if they don't enjoy the same artists that I do. That's part of being an adult. You're not even capable of taking criticism without immediately hurling retarded insults about "le wrong generation" so clearly you have nothing of value to say. You're the reason people hate hip hop fans now fuck off.
>>55471730 >implying children's music is relevant to any one but kids and mom's buying cds they think are "appropriate" for their kids >implying boy bands are relevant to a musical discussion when they are literally created to sell and make as much money as possible >implying a soundtrack to the biggest movie in the world at the time is relevant to a musical discussion when it was literally made to make as much money as possible >implying there aren't masses of families that bought either of those just to make their kid happy >implying anything could compete with disney in terms of popularity or relevance
>>55471848 My point was that I won't listen to someone who says they "don't listen to hiphop at all," which implies ignorance. I won't listen to what an ignorant person has to say.
If you're aware of the genre, have explored it and you've decided it isn't for you, then I'll discuss it with you.
Unfortunately you're so fucking inept at debate that you insisted on starting a huge argument about semantics. You're the one you keeps going on about calling me a retard and using "le." Keep lowering the bar of discussion around here friend, and you can fuck off as well.
>>55471854 >implying rappers's music is relevant to any one but white teenagers and young black men buying cds they think are "appropriate" for their image >implying pop artists are relevant to a musical discussion when they are literally created to sell and make as much money as possible >implying an album to the biggest pop stars in the world at the time is relevant to a musical discussion when it was literally made to make as much money as possible >implying there aren't masses of teenagers that bought MBDTF just to make mu/reddit happy >implying anything could compete with memes in terms of popularity or relevance
(not sure how the last one helps your argument tho)
>>55471907 People who say they don't listen to hip hop at all are using hyperbole to illustrate that they're not into that genre. Only a true pedantic autist like you would get angry at them and think they mean that they've literally never heard a hip hop song in their life and loathe it for no reason whatsoever.
>>55471908 >thinking only white teens and black men are rap fans >thinking pop music (The Beatles) isn't hugely relevant to the very foundation of how music is written >thinking mu/reddit is big enough to cause "masses" of people to buy an album >thinking about memes
>>55471933 >he thinks that young men aren't the primary audience for hip hop >he thinks only "good" pop is important while "bad' pop doesn't count >he thinks kids don't buy pop albums to appeal to their schoolmates >he thinks that all these implications are memes/shitposts
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