In my country they are a gang of thugs who destroy public property and commit heavy violence during their protests. Any time any organization with opposing views to them plan any demonstrations/protests, they are always there to silence them and turn the public debate into "Right wing protesters silenced by the saints of antifa"
Everyone still looks at them as righteous saints though, since noone fighting nazis could ever be bad
>>41611623 I'm peaceful for now. I play by the rules (unlike your precious Antifa). But when the system collapses and the rules are gone, which will happen soon, you will be skinned alive. I believe in absolute morality, freedom is corruption.
>>41611744 >>41611750 The only reason they don't exist there is the second ammendment. You guys really need to start being good goys and get rid of your guns so antifa can beat some tolerance into you.
>>41611284 You know we have independance day march in Poland, its most important day. These german/polish shits try to ruin this march just because we are nationalists and somehow being nationalist and patriot is facist and unprogrssive. This is why antifa are anarcho/leftist scum of this earth. I dont even know why you are asking fabout them, noone in your country is dumb enough to undermine your based famous murrican patriotism.
>>41611739 As mentioned, I believe in absolute morality, which these violent leftists consider to be pure evil. They are my natural enemies. The only thing that prevents me from trying to murder each and everyone of these faggots is that I respect the rules that govern the current system. Luckily, as mentioned, these rules will be gone in our lifetime.
They are also the first people to incite violence.
We have chapters of ANTIFA in California, and they are usually the people to start violence during protests, which sets off a chain reaction causing niggers to join in.
Take the Ferguson protests as an example. There are quite a few Antifa members in Oakland, and we had a riot there recently. Antifa joined in obviously, and were the ones you saw in the videos with masks over their mouths and smashing windows, while throwing bottles at the police.
It's just like in Europe when there was a nationalist rally. Antifa showed up and intiated the violence.
>>41611818 Im sure there are small left wing "youth" groups that exist here and there that may even call themselves antifa (like those communists who tried to start shit after zim zam was acquitted) but their numbers make them insignificant. Left wing extremism hasn't been the same in the states after weather underground started to fail and is pretty much a taboo.
They exist in America. You can find them in California. They're pretty much identical to punk rockers, except they sport an Antifa logo once in a while. You can find them at pretty much any rocker-type bar that serves microbrews and has a filthy as fuck restroom full of graffiti, water, and toilet paper. In fact, one of their hangouts in Oakland, CA, is ironically called "The Beer Revolution." Decent brews, I gotta admit that part.
>>41612159 I'm sure they have rallies, but probably disguised as music venues. However, like I stated >>41611959 they're the first people to show up at any type of protest, so you're guaranteed to find them at these.
Take a look at the demographics. In fact, the same can be said about the ones in Europe. The groups mostly consist of young college-aged adults, though some older folks can be present. They're kids who have no real goals in life and are still trying to find an identity. Same with hipsters and their faggot marches. Antifa are the same. They're bored, and merely want to feel part of something. They'll look for any excuse to "Fuck da police" so they show up at protests.
Pic related. A slapped-on Antifa sticker in West Oakland. You can find these stickers in most parts of the SF bay area along street lights, etc. I never really realized what they were until really thinking about it. Usually I just assume a sticker on a pole is just another skateboard brand slapped on.
>These fags are protesting agains a ball in Vienna (Akademikerball) >The ball is organised by the FPÖ, but it is nothing more than a fucking ball >Antifags butthurt they aren't allowed to protest after those years of chimpouts >Still proceed to burn cars a smash windows of shops >Get med when police take them in. Pic related, it's the famouns Antifa in Wien >
anti fa doesnt really make sense, none whatsoever. They are liberals, socialists even who are for the soviet version of equality (cultural marxism) but they forget that national socialism of germany is also socialism. It is just a different cultural version.
So we got soviet fetishists trying to beat down similar movements as theirs. Its like all the crazy sects in islam fighting against one another. Its crazy as hell.
>>41611284 ANTIFA don't actually care about their cause. They couldn't tell you the primary tenets of fascism and why it is they oppose them. All they want is to be seen as morally just crusaders. They are a load of self-righteous wankers who want to show what hard-cases they are to the herd. in medieval times they would have been the gang that went around burning heretics and stoning adulterers. and they have the nerve to claim it's in the name of freedom. neo-nazis and stormweenies might be absolute thugs and dumbasses also but it must at least take some kind of nerve to take up an ideology that is so vilified and opposed in modern society.
>>41613012 That makes a lot of sense, especially with the consideration that the video was used in court proceedings.
As soon as I saw how nicely edited it was and the fact that it was all security footage I knew some serious shit was going to go down in it.
If people want to have gang affiliations (which is really all that antifa is) then the price ends up being things like having friends that get stabbed to death or getting put in prison for doing the stabbing, I suppose.
>>41612136 They're the same kind of people who join football hooligans or become violent neo nazis. The exception is that Antifa attracts more retarded women because in the current narrative they are fighting against evil so therefore they are doing something good.
They are insecure people who need a tribe instead of being a productive member of society.
>>41612160 They are a loose cooperation with bases in Stockholm and Malmö most often. RevFront has their headquarters just north of Stockholm, but nearly all of them are in jail for 5+ years at the moment.
Extreme left (selfhating)anti white jobless scum and you are asking what is wrong with them. Let's see what the antifa has done lately:started protest(between the children) with butthurt niggers because muh zwarte piet so racist. Protested again with the butthurt niggerd against a movie about michiel de ruyter considered a hero by the dutch people because muh colonialism was so evil and bad even though they have no sources that say de ruyter was a slaver.
Basically anything nationalistic or white is RACIST!!!! Free palestine
>>41612404 It is because in their mind, the capitalist system and the current narrative is an attack on their very health so they are always in self-defence mode. Therefore their attacks, even unprovoked attacks, are self-defence. No christian ethics here no, no.
They act like They're being rebellious and edgy and hardcore by doing nothing more than respecting an almost universally reviled concept, of which less than 0.5% of the population self-identifies with. Antifa are brainwashed, cowardly left wing extremists who think they're special just because of the language they use. They act tough even though they have never faced any serious hardship or discrimination at any point in their lives. They're the epitome of the marxist "useful idiot." I'm not even a fascist, but I'd pick a fascist any day over antifa.
>>41611284 I don't think being an anti-fascists is something bad, the problem is that as a lot of other ideological groups it has degenerated into something entirely different and stupid. It's not really different from being a modern feminist or a SJW.
>>41613756 >brotherhood between germany and britain
Aren't you a nationalist?
Don't you believe that your nation (Britain) is where your loyalty lies, not with other nations?
I love this "international nationalism" that gets preached on here, you're already abandoning the nation-state as the primary political actor in favour of some pan-national "white-nes" which isn't even tied to the nation-state.
Could it be the material basis of the nation-state is withering away in the 21st century?
Very hard to find as the specific and detailed definition of Fascism is related to certain historical conditions which don't really exists in Britain (to pick one random example - a powerful Catholic church that plays an important role in the politics of the society)
we have a great many nationalist groups who perform a similar political function to the fascists of old but with a number of key differences because of the different historical environment (to paraphrase Orwell "Fascism is what capitalism resorts to at time of crisis to prop up the failing order, fascism is simply liberalism in decay") most far-right nationalist groups fulfill that definition and perform the same function as the fascists of the early 20th century.
>>41613994 >They target democratic parties like UKIP that they admit are not fascist.
I don't support using direct action or violence against UKIP.
UKIP, for the most part, campaign within the legal and constitutional framework of the country, don't use street violence to "March and Grow" in the classical fascist mould, therefore we should oppose them from within the same legal and constitutional framework.
And I'm not entirely sure you have a detailed knowledge of either Antifa in the UK and of UK party politics.
Antifa is a colloquealism for what is called in Britain Anti-Fascist Network, it's anarcho-communist and not affiliated to UAF (infact it was an organisation set up because of quite clear ideological and tactical differences to UAF)
UAF is a front group for the Socialist Workers Party, a trotskyite group that's known for trying to hi-jack grassroots political activism for recruiting puposes.
UAF are shit. They're utterly discredited. AFN and Antifa are much better.
>Amerifat trying to teach me about the internal workings for far-left British politics
Further, Antifa attacks anyone that wishes to preserve their national identity which differs from that of the antifa's. A man should be able to have a say over whether or not his country is to be overrun by hordes of immigrants from violent third-world countries, that carry no notion of respect towards those in the country that provide for them their safe haven. Natives should have the option of booting out these thugs for good, and for closing their borders permanently.
>>41614188 They are fascist in that they would resort to violence, and that they are targeting a specific ethnic group with said violence, for the benefit of specific ethnic groups, who just happen to be swarming in and taking over parts of the country. Words DO have meanings, I agree. Perhaps you should look up the terms "Cuck" and "traitor"?
The Anti-Fascist Network is a network of independent and grassroots groups working together against the rise of racism and fascism in our communities.
Anti-fascists have opposed the EDL and similar groups wherever they go. The aim of the network is to support these local actions and to join together to counter regional and national far right events, ensuring maximum numbers on the streets as well as sharing resources and providing legal support.
The Anti-Fascist Network is not about telling people how to campaign in their areas, what type of anti-fascist activity they should undertake or what political analysis they should adopt. We simply want to cooperate to defeat fascism.
The Anti-Fascist Network is non-hierarchical, will never work with the police and is not affiliated to any political party.
Recently Aljazeera posted some opinion column saying how some American Antifa fags should deserve a medal for violently attacking a White Nationalist meeting in their own residence. These fags came up with baseball bats and wrecked like 10 people and they tried to make it seem like its OK.
Fuck Antifa. I believe there is a video in Sweden where Antifa starts running from "muh nazis"
>>41614293 Oh let me guess, you were one of those Londoners who were rioting for more free shit a few years ago? You are all pathetic shit-stains, dirtying up the beautiful tapestry of British society.
Face it, your ideology is doomed to fail once people wake up to the effects of unbridled immigration from third-world war zones. You are on the wrong side of history. Europe is waking up to the fact that moderate political policy is the ONLY way to maintain stability and peace, since if you go too far to the left or to the right, where you utterly ignore a voting bloc which numbers in the 10s of millions in your country, your country will then devolve into anarchy.
>>41614385 I only want to hunt you down because you the biggest and brutal authoritarians on the block. On top of that you betray the natives of your country and cause like 15x more terrorism then "neo nazis or fascists"
>>41614374 >Europe is waking up to the fact that moderate political policy is the ONLY way to maintain stability and peace
fucking lel. You're not paying very close attention to European politics I take it?
Because liberalism is dying out here faster than it did in the 1930's. The Centre is finished. In Europe today "moderate" means "someone who wants to cling to the failing status quo due to the their vested interests".
A moderate is someone who wants the oligarchy continue their utter and total domination of democratic politics as the expense of the people.
Leninism is a bit of an anachronism. We're making our own tendencies and our own traditions in response to events and in response to the needs of our generation, not by trying to copy what happened a hundred years ago, that would be stupid.
>>41614419 >>41614426 No bullying. This is a nice board >>41614445 Killing is bad. :^) But don't worry, you'll have to teach the new Muslims in your country what not to do, like rape or kill. They even mistake your gay group for Nazis
>What is wrong with killing commies like you who demand we open the flood gates to outsiders?
I've not mentioned anything in regards to my beliefs on immigration. I'm not in favour of an unrestricted labour market (although that's on economic rather than natioanlist grounds, on principleI have no problem with the idea of mass immigration, just that under the current conditions immigration takes places at the behest of, and in the interests of, global capital)
>>41614486 You are Marxist collectivist no one cares about your stupid individual views that are not even coherent. It's all about social justice and the "new left" if you like it or not and the people around you have accepted that.
>>41614475 >And the needs of your generation are to replace yourselves?
I'm not bothered about ethnic purity.
The idea of ethnically pure nation-states is dead and gone. Get used to it. You're American, you should know this better than anyone.
Your mixed race descendants won't care. Post-racial coffee-coloured mongrel great-grandkids will be fine.
It'll be one world soon. Gonna have a hard place for you to live in though.
The backlash against this from nationalists and such who can see the writing on the wall will be tough for the next 20 or 30 years but you can't beat demographics. Slowly, inexorably, like Fabius of old, we will undermine the material basis of nationalist ideology until it can no longer be utilised as means by which to ensure subservience to the state and the ruling class.
The SJW's can be our useful idiots in this process, even if their brand of narcissistic liberal identity politics is stupid, they'll still be able to help out in the broader war of position.
>>41614307 To the casual observer they look like a group dedicated to promoting rightwing extremism by making the left impossible for the average person to tolerate.
If their actions actually increase the number of facists and nazis it's still good? The important thing appears to be the members got feel like they were important people. Such narcissism seems contrary to the leftist and communist ideals of the past.
There's a reason his revolution succeeded and the revolutions in other country's didn't.
But the same things which were successful in overthrowing the Tsar were also responsible for the slow descent into bureaucratic centralism that by 1927 had effectively killed off any realistic prospect of socialism in Russia.
And also: Why would we follow the tactics of someone when we're in a very different economic and historical situation to that group? The Bolsheviks were a product of Tsarism, and I don't live under a collapsing Tsarist autocracy I live under a collapsing neo-liberal EU system, one with much greater scope for legitimate activism than existed in Lenin's day.
>>41614460 And yet, every single "socialist" experiment ended up killing millions of people, and ultimately collapsed on itself. You know why? Because you cannot build an economy from the top down. It will always fail, because we cannot accurately model a system which is based on the actions of millions of people who are irrational with money. Further, it promotes hegemony like nothing else. Every single "socialist" experiment made a handful of people incredibly rich, and everyone else incredibly poor. You have to have your eyes closed towards history to be a socialist.
upto a point, but the definition that Orwell provides is a very accurate understanding.
And although capitalism doesn't care much for nationalism, nationalism is still one of the primary means the nation-state (which capitalists most certainly do need) to remain legitimate. Without nationalism the popular legitimacy of the nation-state is undermined, and the nation-state (which props up the globalised institutions for regulating capitalism like the G8, IMF, EU etc) is something capitalists do need.
So it's nationalism for you, to keep you in your place and society in order, and it's internationalism for them.
Just like how the oligarchs and capitalists privatize the profits and socialise the losses. Nationalism is for you to follow, not for them.
Get rid of the nationalism, the racism, the chauvinism etc and the states role as a tool of class rule is left naked and exposed.
>>41611284 had some from germany here protesting or shouting or some shit in somewhat organized manner >we must leave the borders open so anyone can immigrate to our EU countries they're literally retarded
>>41614199 >Michiel de ruyter Funny thing is that guy was actually some kind of philanthropist for his time. He literally bought slaves to set them free. I guess after the zwarte piet ban the professional whiners needed a new subject.
After all it's not the left that's been supporting Islam. It's been right-wing governments who've systematically propped up the governments of the Saudi's and Qatari's for the last 70 years. It was the Truman administration who decided to start focusing American energy needs on the Saudis "because it was better to get oil from radical islamists than it is to get it from communist-affiliated coal miners unions" and it was Thatcher who went to Afghanistan and gave speeces praising the Mujahadeen in favour of the (secular, atheist) communist:
I could go on all day.
I don't care for Islam because it's been western backed Islamist groups killing my comrades for decades in th middle-east, but I'm not in favour of racist and sectarian attacks on Muslims either.
It's a position you probably struggle to understand. But that's ok, the less you understand, the less able you will be to fight us.
>>41614888 >After all it's not the left that's been supporting Islam. It's funny how ignorant you are and then say >It's a position you probably struggle to understand. But that's ok, the less you understand, the less able you will be to fight us.
You are so out of touch and honestly as demonstrated you leftie types are limp wristed homosexuals. It will be easy to crush you when the time comes.
So your argument is pretty much: anarchy? I don't think capitalism is going to be stopped by quelling nationalism. There's always, unfortunately, going to be an unfair hierarchy. I don't trust socialism. I also think it's been completely hijacked by the middle class. It's no longer a working class movement, and I know you're definitely not working class.
>>41614934 >Ah, so then you admit you are a fascist.
No I'm socialist.
There's nothing uniquely fascist about using violence to further political goals, or using violence to prevent people who are a threat to you gaining ground.
I think a lot of people are struggling here because they have a definition of fascist which is essentially "non-ideological political violence" or "people being mean to me" detached from a specific ideological position. Fascism is not just political violence, it's political violence to promote a specifically Fascist ideological worldview, one that I disagree with, and I'm prepared to use violence to prevent if necessary.
So, to sum up:
>Using political violence to promote fascism = bad
>Using political violence to attack fascism = good
Because I don't have a problem with political violence in itself, I have a problem with political violence to further ideological goals I'm opposed to.
Is everyone on here some sort of crybaby liberal or something?
>>41615032 >o your argument is pretty much: anarchy? I don't think capitalism is going to be stopped by quelling nationalism.
No neither do I but I do think that without nationalism, chauvinism and so on the state would have no other means to call upon to get people to legitimise it other than naked class rule.
So although capitalists don't like the nation-state interfering with their globally based interests, they do like the state keeping the domestic populations in line and obedient by being able to call upon nationalist sentiment. They couldn't do this on economic terms alone.
Which is kinda what I mean when I say it's nationalism for you, to keep you loyal and obedient, and internationalism for them, to keep them in charge and powerful.
>>41615032 >There's always, unfortunately, going to be an unfair hierarchy.
No there isn't. this is just a product of demoralisation.
>>41615032 >I also think it's been completely hijacked by the middle class.
This is partially true.
>>41615032 >It's no longer a working class movement, and I know you're definitely not working class.
Unfortunately I am working class. I work a shit job, I earn just under £200 a week, I'm from a working-class family. I work for a living. I know what it's like to do split shifts and I know what it's like to live on 10p noodles and what I can scavenge from foodbanks. Many people on the middle-class edgy hipster left don't.
Sorry if I don't meet up to your idealised projection of what a socialist ought to be like. Don't blame me just because reality isn't to your liking.
Upto a point this is true, but political violence isn't a mater of faith to me, it's a tactic. In some situations it's a good tactic, in others it's not. You have to judge each situation by it's merits.
And I've never been in favour of the state banning fascist groups from marching or speaking etc, I don't want the state (an institution infinitely more violent than the political left currently could ever be) doing our dirty work.
Nationalist sentiment is rising because they're scared. They can see Europe changing in a way they're frightened of.
It'llbe 20 or 30 years of nationalist incalcitrance until the last people who can remember all-white ethnically homogenous nation-states die off. When the generations for whom multi-cultural and multi-ethnic society is the norm are in their dotage the material basis for reactionary nationalism will no longer exist.
Part of the reason I come to /pol/ (other than to fuck with Brit/pol/ freaks and get them sacked etc) is so I can see the anxiety and angst of people who know their precious "white race" is coming to an end, that their worldview is collapsing.
The long-term prospects for us are very good, but short-to-medium term is going to be good for nationalists also (this kind of polarisation is healthy imo, the death of the centre opens up opportunities for both far-right and far-left that previously didn't exist) however the nationalists have got a long-term problem (the death of ethnically homogenous nation-states) that we don't have, so I'm totally confident we'll win out in the end.
And furthermore some of the more long-sighted amongst you on here know this. That's why there's so much "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" shit here on a daily basis (which is a great source of amusement to me and my comrades btw do keep it up)
Come on m8. You most know that most leftie liberal types are university educated, whereas most fascists are dumb skinhead types. Study after study has linked prejudice with lower IQ and lower education. Not saying either group is right, but those are the facts.
By organising in my own working-class community, with other working-class people, and not with stupid liberal middle-class edgy uni students too busy checking each other's privilege to care about the bread and butter issues.
Actually not doing bad at all atm. Better than 10-15 years ago that's for sure!
After all we've had Syriza in Greece, and we've got Podemos in Spain, and there's Italy, Ireland, Slovenia, Croatia, Cyprus, Scotland, Portugal and a few other places I can't remember off the top of my head where the "far-left" is in the ascedent.
Far-right doing well in France (on a low plurality) parts of England (UKIP is piss-weak Toryism though, anti-EU too which helps us) and Holland (Wilders, although again Holland we've seen the Dutch Socialists gaining strength in lieu of the failure of the political centre)
In short the centre is collapsing, chaos is spreading, the EU is collapsing, war is on our borders and the prognosis is excellent!
>>41611284 The anti-racist, the anti-fascist today is someone trying to push their own agenda under the guise of something good like freedom.
In reality they're all socialists, communists, anarchists, whatever that fascism presents a threat to politically. Antifa is a group made solely for useful idiots to feel like they're doing something useful and doing horrible things to people which they find justified while furthering the agenda for those who benefit from the principles pushed by Antifa.
And you can't get condemned when you say you're fighting racists.
The only good thing about Antifa is that it makes the worst idiots in your neighborhood voluntarily put themselves on a list
>>41615537 >>41615582 Also keep in mind (because you are a idiot) that golden dawn is a outlawed party and had the lowest swing of any greek party. When your cuck buddies let that country sink further into third world sinkhole then golden dawn will take power (deep down you know this)
>>41615586 You know not everything is a huge conspiracy where the 20 richest people in the world get together and jerk eachother off and say "how can we fuck the common man today?" People who ARENT lazy pieces of shit actually make something of themselves I.E. Small businesses, sole proprietorships, and even people who make a better than average job.
>>41615623 >So I doubt even if they get kicked out of the euro they'd lose much support, they'd lose far more support if they capitulated to the demands of the oligarchs.
>I doubt if the only entity that is keeping greece in order with effect their popularity
>Implying it isn't a lose lose >Implying greece isn't going to have to pay debts or leave >Implying syriza wont get on their knees when the time comes
They already met with the bankers you hate so much everyday begging them not to downgrade the country. Yeah a former commie party is having a honey moon face, but the funny part is their long term aspects are grim to say the least.
>Your knowledge of European politics is extremely weak.
>local underpass was renovated by the town >it wasn't complete, but it looked much better how it was before >clean walls, new lighting etc >until the antifa came, and the whole underpass was covered with graffiti and tags
They are at the same level as the generic, uneducated vandal scum.
I'm not saying that there aren't people who spraypaint swastikas on walls. They aren't a bit better than the other.
>>41615696 >The old mom and pop store fairytale except its not a fairytale. My parents grew up poor and worked hard their entire life and now they own their own business and rake in more dosh than you ever will because you're a lazy piece of shit.
>>41615917 They are not lazy they are just more intelligent, they realized other nations are not just going to pay their bill unlike what Greece did. Now they can get their money back little by little (plus all those bonds)
>>41615966 >they realized other nations are not just going to pay their bill
Germany? Paying it's debts? Are you on crack?
No other country in world has written off more of it's debt than Germany.
Learn some basic european history before comnig back here.
And they don't work as hard as the greeks.
Your original contention was that German workers are less lazy than Greeks. This is factually incorrect. So you have to supplement it with "they're more intelligent" etc etc which is a) up for debate and b) not what you originally said, is it?
Can't change the goalposts just because you're wrong.
>>41616166 >your facts are statistically insignificant.
so you link me to some fucking clickbait article that purposely misleads the reader by saying "These 80 people are as rich as the worlds 3.6 Billion poorest people" and the majority of which are U.S. citizens.
>>41616209 >you support the overthrow of a nation even if the populace did not will it so.
German communists, socialists and social democrats etc had overwhelming public support.
And there was no real tradition of constitutional democracy in 1918 Germany, it's not like they could simply run for election and win that way as there weren't any viable political institutions in Germany at that time.
you also said "do you identify with them" not "do you uncritically support their every action and wish to replicate what they did in the here and now"
Stop making cuts to childrens protective services might be a good place to start.
Denounce and embarass the Labour party for not being tougher on it.
Tough custodial sentences for those who commit these crimes, punishments for police who refuse to follow-up on reports of abuse.
Challenge chauvinism and violence against women that takes within Muslim communities by working Muslims who've been speaking out against it for years (something that Labour has failed to do, for a number of complex reasons too boring to get into here)
>>41616636 >I mean: you guys like violence and some of these guys who are molesting kids would be pretty deserving victims and it would look good in the eyes of the community if you protected children.
I've been arguing this for years btw, and so do AFN and Antifa groups. UAF on the other hand has loads of political connections to dodgy Muslim groups so they've got absolutely no policy on it at all. This is why UAF are shit.
If you haven't got a policy to deal with Islamo-fascism as well traditional european fascism then you're not to be taken seriously as an anti-fascist.
Unfortunately the more PC liberal identity politics lot would regard it as racist, but they're fucking idiots, they don't live in these communities they don't know what goes on or how to build support in places like Rotherham, so they can be quite easily sidelined in this instance.
>>41616966 >Those are pretty reasonable answers so good on you. Are they more what you believe or what your organization stands for or both?
I'm speaking for myself here but my beliefs are pretty common amongst the anti-fascists I know and organise with. UAF's position on this is nothing short of cowardice.
>>41616966 >But are we talking about Muslims who are specifically speaking out against organized sexual abuse rings?
Yes, there are Muslims who spent years trying to get the police in Rotherham and the local Labour council to deal with the issue, and they were sidelined and ignored for a number of reasons (mostly to do with the Labour party trying to win favour of Muslim "community leaders" who didn't want to deal with this problem because of the embarassment it would cause them) so we should be willing to work with them to stop the sort of cover-ups.
Part of the problem also comes with the religious nature of these "community organisations" that Labour uses in these areas. Although they're what we'd call "moderate muslims" they're also people who are hopeless out of touch and unable to deal with issues of sexuality, or womens rights, and so on.
The people committing these crimes weren't religious people, as an Ex-Muslim friend of mine and anti-fascist puts it "you'd be more likely to meet these people in the pub getting drunk chasing girls on a friday night than at the Mosque" so these religious leaders don't have a clue about what was going on outside of their Mosques and Masjids, putting them in a very bad position to deal with it.
The other problem is with criminal prostitution gangs using taxi companies as front organisations to traffik young women to their clients, most of whom are white british btw, which again isn't something your local imam or whatever knows much about.
There's a lot of very complex issues at work here that a lot of the nationalist types on here failed to understand cos they don't live in this area.
>>41617204 >Also I have been following the story since the BNP (the ones you harass) banged on about it and no one took them seriously.
The thing about the BNP is they have a long track record in making these things up. They've claimed "muslim rape gangs" in practically every City in Britain since the 1980's, and practically all of them turned out to be total bullshit.
And btw it's not just me that hates the BNP, the BNP is universally hated in Britain (precisely because of their record on issues like this, their craven opportunism, their lack of credibility which they built up over decades by simply making stuff up to boost their own publicity) It was hardly a surprise that no-one took them seriously on this.
No-one takes them seriously anyway they're a failed party now. We crushed the BNP.
>>41617137 I feel like he knows what he's talking about anon. The very point that he's trying to make is that these people aren't getting the kind of voice that they should have which seems kind of supported by your reaction.
>>41617109 Well, I certainly hope that these people are given a bigger platform in the future to try and reform their communities. It seems insane that no one has given them more of an opportunity to speak but the political world is crazy enough that the people who are on point are so often the ones who are marginalized so I can see it.
So here's another question: how come an approach that borders on vigilantism in regards to political opponents is well accepted in your ranks but not a similar approach to community policing and welfare?
You guys can possibly trust the actual police since you have lots of problems with them. I thought your suggestion to punish police who didn't do their jobs was astute since it does seem that a lack of enforcement is at work in these cases but politicians rarely have the balls to actually speak out in favor of sanctions against police.
>>41617337 >So here's another question: how come an approach that borders on vigilantism in regards to political opponents is well accepted in your ranks but not a similar approach to community policing and welfare?
I don't have a problem with community policing outside the reach of the liberal state, but to do that you need a much higher degree of support than we currently have, otherwise you just end up as a gang of thugs bullying people around. Sometimes groups have done work around keeping heroin dealers off the council estates and forcing loan-sharks to leave people alone, but to suddenly take it upon yourself to become the police force in an area without the full consent of the people living there is a bad idea and not one I support.
As for community welfare stuff, well actually we already do a lot of that stuff anyway, that's where our support comes from. Helping poor people pay the bills, anti-bailiff campaigns to stop evictions, anti bedroom tax stuff, helping organise foodbanks, organisings lifts to school for the kids in deprived areas. This is the sort of bread-and-butter political work that's not glamorous that the British far-right has absolutely no interest in.
Community welfare is one of the cornerstones of democratic socialism for like 200 years, since the funeral societies and co-ops in the early 19th century.
As for the police themselves, their attitude was one of "these are just the slags off the council estate, no-one cares what they think" which was actually made clear in the government inquiry, so there's a class and a gender element to this, which the far-right pays no attention to, which must be addressed if we're to make sure it doesn't go on in the future.
>>41617491 >I don't have a problem with community policing outside the reach of the liberal state, but to do that you need a much higher degree of support than we currently have, otherwise you just end up as a gang of thugs bullying people around. Sometimes groups have done work around keeping heroin dealers off the council estates and forcing loan-sharks to leave people alone, but to suddenly take it upon yourself to become the police force in an area without the full consent of the people living there is a bad idea and not one I support.
I don't have a problem with bullying the neo-fascist far-right. It's the only language they understand.
Bullying ordinary working-class members of the community is totally out of order.
The difference is I respect my own community, I respect the rights of working-class people to not be scared in their homes. I don't feel the same way in regards to fascists. They've forfeited their right to a life without fear when they decided to push their disgusting hateful and dead-end ideology onto people.
No I think "white pride" is a stupid concept, not least because "white" is a skin colour not a specific ethnicity (this is a very American concept quite alien to traditional European nationalism btw) and even if it was, ethno-nationalism is a stupid ideology that belongs in the 19th century. There's not even much of a material basis for it any more, even less in the future.
Most of the people who are into this "white pride" stuff are just the flip-side of the SJW lot, people lost in a post-ideological world where they formulate an identity for themselves based on these ideas, and turn them into a type of reactionary far-right identity politics (as a reaction to post-marxist liberal identity politics, what you people call Social Justice Warriors)
>>41617491 >As for community welfare stuff, well actually we already do a lot of that stuff anyway, that's where our support comes from. Helping poor people pay the bills, anti-bailiff campaigns to stop evictions, anti bedroom tax stuff, helping organise foodbanks, organisings lifts to school for the kids in deprived areas.
That's very interesting because I feel like these are things that lots of people on /pol/ would agree with.
So what if a group you were opposed to politically like Identarians or something started to do all sorts of stuff like that in the community. Would you be willing to work with anyone that was involved in those types of welfarist endeavors?
>>41617629 >For instance a march of natives against mass immigration would be consider neo fascist far right by you and your antifa buddies.
Depends, usually the anti-immigration stuff is just the thin end of a very fascist wedge, and I can't remember the last time I saw an "anti-immigration" march which wasn't in some way organised by well-known players in the British far-right scene (for example the founders of the EDL were all from the blood and soil wing of the BNP with a long history of ultra-nationalist activism behind them)
And I said to you before, I don't actually support totally open borders under capitalism, because that's a policy which strengthens boses and undermines workers, but I have no problem with the principle of free movement only that free movement has to be done in a way that doesn't harm or undercut wages and so on.
On the plus side though I do quite like the fact that European and Western countries are being multi-ethnic and the idea of the nation-states being homogenous political units based on a shared ethnicity and so on is coming to and end, that's something that'll work to our advantage in years to come.
>>41617661 >That's very interesting because I feel like these are things that lots of people on /pol/ would agree with.
Take a look at the thread mate, they're instinctively hostile to anyone working-class and organised, there's nothing they hate to see more than the working-class being confident and organised.
Take a look at some of the shilling for the wonders of capitalism earlier on in the thread, it's no co-incidence than when push comes to shove the fascists take the side of the bosses over the workers. After all, that's exactly what they did back in the 30's.
>>41617661 >So what if a group you were opposed to politically like Identarians or something started to do all sorts of stuff like that in the community. Would you be willing to work with anyone that was involved in those types of welfarist endeavors?
It doesn't come up precisely because they hold working-class people in contempt, they believe they're poor because they chose to be poor not because capitalism has any inherent faults in it, that capitalism produces these kinds of monstrous inequalities.
I wouldn't be willing to work with them no, but what's important isn't whether I'd work with them, but whether the people who live here would be willing to work with them and so on. Which I suspect would be a flat no.
>>41617705 > On the plus side though I do quite like the fact that European and Western countries are being multi-ethnic and the idea of the nation-states being homogenous political units based on a shared ethnicity and so on is coming to and end, that's something that'll work to our advantage in years to come.
It's funny how much you enjoy the idea of that . Because when I think of the best and safest places in the UK I think London and Birmingham... OH WAIT
>>41617705 >On the plus side though I do quite like the fact that European and Western countries are being multi-ethnic and the idea of the nation-states being homogenous political units based on a shared ethnicity and so on is coming to and end, that's something that'll work to our advantage in years to come.
So you think creating ethnic enclaves within countries is a good thing and would further your own goals.
Whilst the rest of the world remains largely Homogeneous and undivided.
Yup, Black Nationalism, Han Supremecism, all these things are reactionary too. If you want to find double standards on these issues you'd be better of directing your gaze towards the American tumblr-liberals and not towards me.
>>41617740 >Look you can beat around the bush , but don't pretend you are there to serve the community unless they serve your political desires.
My political desires are to see working-class people well organised, confident in their ability to change the world, not passively accepting their lot, not demoralised, and so on. Funnily enough most working-class people agree with us on this, which is even though they're not socialists in most cases (mind you socialism has very strongly embedded roots in these sorts of English working class communities, it's not a dirty word here) they're happy to work alongside us and for us to be there.
I want to see my community in a place of dignity, not riddled by fear and subservient. When you have a lot of poverty and unemployment (which has been the norm here post-Thatcher) people often just try to get their heads down and survive one day at a time. That's a very destructive thing. It's when the social fabric of a community breaks down that scumbags who do things like child sex exploitation can happen. A strong and confident working-class community is the best defence against such terrible things happening, and so working to help build one is the most constructive and practical way to stop these sorts of terrible crimes happening again.
>>41617798 >So you think creating ethnic enclaves within countries is a good thing and would further your own goals.
No I don't I'm not in favour of enclaves of that type at all. They do harm to communities, they divide up working-class communities on sectarian lines, and weaken us in the process.
A big part of what we do is to try and overcome those divisions so that we can't be victims of divide and rule bullshit.
>>41617782 >there's nothing they hate to see more than the working-class being confident and organised
I don't know, I feel like some of them may just be lacking in experience or perhaps haven't considered some of the issues to the degree that you have.
Consider that all the things that you've described doing in the community based on your earlier post are also well in line with Christian social teachings. A lot of /pol/lacks are really into the importance of Christianity and I think the things you've described are pretty much in line with Christ's teachings.
Also: I don't know enough about what I'm talking about to delve into the specifics of it but I've seen some fairly spirited exchanges about the potential role of trade unions and other non-public unions in a libertarian state on this board.
>>41617953 >But yes there's a definite Imperialist streak in Islam that's got to be opposed (although these are very very complex issues that would require more time than I'm willing to spend atm to discuss)
More like >im too commie whipped to speak out against the evil that is islam.
>>41617969 >I don't know, I feel like some of them may just be lacking in experience or perhaps haven't considered some of the issues to the degree that you have.
That's probably true to be fair, I've spent a lot of time in a very hands-on way dealing with these issues, they're often just looking at it from an outsiders perspective, they've not been forced into a position where they have to think about these things in-depth as part of their everyday life. These aren't academic exercises, this is real-life stuff for me.
the formal Marxist position on Islam is that it's a tool of class rule designed to buttress the state, that must be destroyed.
Modern Islamism and Jihadism started it's life in the 50's and 60's in Egypt as an avowedly anti-communist political movement (look into the work of Sayid Qutb for instance for the best example of this)
The fact these Islamists were often supported by the West in places like Yemen and Afghanistan as a bulwark against communism is a big reason why it's such a problem today.
>>41617924 >A big part of what we do is to try and overcome those divisions so that we can't be victims of divide and rule bullshit
anon you are articulate and socially aware, I can see that from your posts. I don't think I'm really talking to the average antifa person here so it's not fair to base your answer to this on yourself.
/pol/ definitely portrays antifa as being riddled with identity politics and other divisive distractions pretty much thrust on us by elites to divide us. Would you have me believe that this is not the case?
>>41618041 >Pro-tip: you will make enemies doing this shit(If you had the balls to even do it)
Of course. The radical muslims here (and tbh there's not that many of them) hate us more than the EDL.
They rely on communities being alienated and divided, and when they see us offering help to Muslim and Non-muslim equally, when they see us breaking down these barriers, they see it as a real threat to their own ambitions.
But they're really really shit, you gotta understand they're a laughing stock. You ever seen that film "Four Lions" set in Sheffield? That's very close to the reality.
having said that just because they're pathetic, and just because they're small in number, doesn't mean they're not dangerous.
Best way of dealing with them is to have good contacts in the muslims areas who can keep you up-to-date with what's going on, and how they operate etc.
Although I don't generally like relying on the state to do our communities work for us, I have no problem with seeing these fuckers banged up in jail and punished. I hold them in the exact same sort of contempt as fascists tbh.
>>41618033 >These aren't academic exercises, this is real-life stuff for me
I can definitely tell. We can go on and on splitting hairs about ideological stuff but I noticed that your proposed solutions to real problems that can be pinned down were pretty no nonsense, common sense stuff. Which is the kind of thinking that one cultivates when one actually has to put things into action.
>>41618125 >/pol/ definitely portrays antifa as being riddled with identity politics and other divisive distractions pretty much thrust on us by elites to divide us. Would you have me believe that this is not the case?
Depends where you are.
Out here in the working-class areas of Northern England that sort of American college-campus liberalism really has no sort of base, it's not really filtered down to these areas yet. It exists in the big university cities, but to a lesser extent than it exists in the USA.
Appreciate the compliment, it's never wise to take /pol/'s judgment on these issues at face-value, /pol/'s a good place for a laugh but not a great place to find accurate information.
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