>NASA still can't disprove the EM Drive
NEWTON BLOWN THE FUCK OUT!!!!111!!1
Not only will this change humanity forever this marks the fall of the haughty, dogmatic academic establishment. This is the rise of the renegade lone theorist,the days of Tesla. back to Long live Shawyer!
Eagleworks are talking about putting an EM drive on a cubesat it's fucking happening guys!
Maybe it's ablating high-energy copper ions off the back somehow. Maybe there's some kind of electromagnetic interaction with the Earth or the test stand, causing it to push off. Maybe there really is a novel physical effect going on, but it still conserves momentum and energy. Maybe Mach effects are real.
But Shawyer's theory is so utterly bullshit that it definitely isn't that.
If the EM drive works then it means interstellar travel is possible hence UFOs are real. I'm literally drowning in /sci/ fedora tears right now, all that bullshit you spend thousands learning, all those times you dismissed reactionless and alien warp drives as /x/ tier, youre all so wrong, so so wrong.
If em drive was real aliens would've reached that technological point by now even from the furthers point of the universe.
If that was true then the possible real aliens would've invaded earth long time ago and wiped every monkey.
Hey it seems like we're alone and that's a good assumption to hold on until it can be disproved ... but I will never hesitate to admit I was wrong once a single concludent proof shows up.
My theory is that homosexuals(like you) are responsible for a force that causes things to fall to the ground.
We can prove it by dropping something!
WOW! THE THEORY WORKS! IT MUST BE TRUE.
This is how you sound.
>aliens are interested in interstellar travel
>aliens exist in this sector of space
>aliens would travel to our solar system
>aliens have interest in finding yet another planet infested with life
>aliens are hostile
>aliens would travel to planets by themselves, not their robotic slaves
make it more efficient and strap it to a nuclear reactor and let it go, it'll pick up speed slowly, but because it's a constant force, it can pick up allot of speed over the trip to another solar system.
>Muh meme drives
You know why we spend our lives learning mathematics?
It is so you shitlord fucks can get cool shit like t.v and computers and internet
Fuck this and fuck you
Paul March is probably never gonna work again. Fucking popsci meme fedoras
>Maybe it's ablating high-energy copper ions off the back somehow.
This seems likely. See also: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/130662/emdrive-cavity-modes
That's assuming "aliens" would have anything similar to our culture other than the apparent drive and capability to travel or send objects through space. All their other traits could be waaaay different.
We already know Shawyer's explanation is laughably wrong. Even an undergraduate engineer like me can plainly tell where the error in his analysis lies. It was a really fucking obvious mistake.
There have been multiple tests by other groups since the NASA Eagleworks test, at least one of which was actually performed in a vacuum, and which still produced a thrust signal that reversed when the device was reversed. (Electromagnetic interactions with the power lines was directly identified as a possible noise source in that test, and appears to be potentially on the same order of the thrust signal, so it still did not confirm the EmDrive despite being a positive replication). Also, there are the claimed data posted by the researchers on the Nasaspaceflight forums, but I'm taking those with a hefty grain of salt because
>Legitimate source for scientific data
>This is not a NASA affiliated site, as you will have guessed by the lack of a .gov URL – but covers the Agency and all related areas of space flight.
Sure is easy to trick people like you.
MAN WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT IF IT WORKED!
THAT WOULD JUST BE GREAT!
fuck you dumbass its impossible and you know nothing about fuck-all so fuck off retarded meme bullshit. reddit, etc.
BUT, WOULDN'T IT BE-
fuck off! no fun allowed only serious sciencings for science people like me even though entertaining the impossible is if anything beneficial.
Are these updates ever in journals or serious science periodicals?
why is it always roflgadgetcoolmemesxdxd.com
"NASA TAKES INSPIRATION FROM SPACEBALLS, INVENTS LUDICROUS SPEED, TELLS ISAAC NEWTON 'DEAL WITH IT'"
> "NASA TAKES INSPIRATION FROM SPACEBALLS, INVENTS LUDICROUS SPEED, TELLS ISAAC NEWTON 'DEAL WITH IT'"
Would love to see that as the research-paper title. In fact I want to write that paper.
I'm no science nerd and I just stumbled upon this thread out of boredom, and I wonder, could you like, put these thrusters to the ends of a windmill or something to create infinite energy? If it could, how come no one's making a big deal about this?
Because that's too logical. Plus, getting things like that approved with places like NASA requires so much red tape and approval that you would feel like it could be made into an SNL skit.
When has a headline ever explained the state of science with a decent level of accuracy?
First of all it's not NASA, It's some guy at NASA. NASA is a huge organization that does a lot of big, small, and meaningless things. Right now the Emdrive is not important. This is not an official statement from them, the basis for these articles is literally an employee posting about findings on a forum without going into much detail until the experiment is properly published.
So, some guy at NASA, confirms that - there is still unexplained thrust. Oh they fucked that up too, no one said it works. This is literally not news.
This board is on sui/sci/de watch if this thing gets on a fucking cube sat.
FUCKING STOP! OUR ESTABLISHED FACTS MAKE US MONEY!
WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER FRONTIER
>tfw studying mining in school
>tfw will have to be like deadspace and fly to asteroid
>mfw no one can hear me scream
I hope this is bullshit
We are so fucking back to the first time we found out oil was useful as shit
Everything just got a little easier
I'm sick of this. We know that any EM propulsion violates causality. Why are people still talking about this nonsense? We know it's impossible.
Have they even set up a photo-multiplier to check for what is obviously ablation causing the minuscule thrust yet?
I swear to god if I didn't have better shit to do I would kill this meme in a single pubby.
ablation should have occurred at a much higher energy level than 80 watts...
considering copper has been used for years and years without wear and tear....
Really I am stumped
I bet you they are cheating that has to be it
This is bullshit
nobody believes this thing works.
It cannot work
Conservation of momentum is the basis for our understanding of the very subject of momentum
It has been right and is still right
Eagleworks has just been fibbing the results
And how exactly does memedrive disprove SR?
>It cannot work
>My book says what my eyes see is bullshit
It's because of closed-minded clowns like you why Aristotelian physics persisted for so many years. Not one person was brave enough to stand up and say "hey maybe this guy we all worship is wrong because what he says doesn't always match with what I observe"
Daily remainder that this thread belongs on /x/ and janitor shitlords should be deleting these crappy threads.
>implying your eyes have seen anything
This is why we waste so much money
memefedora pop/sci/ faggots like you
Who is this Paul Guy anyway
Some no name scientist with not a viable discovery to his name?
People around here have always been very rejective towards new ideas/concepts.
People around here believe extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far this drive has barely produced any evidence, much less extraordinary. "I want to believe" is not considered valid evidence in the scientific community.
What if we're the oldest intelligent life on the universe? What if the universe is ours for the taking?
I myself will try to become a physical embodiment of Slaanesh and create a galaxy of perversions.
>I myself will try to become a physical embodiment of Slaanesh and create a galaxy of perversions.
Looks like we've got a filthy heretic on our hands boys.
>I'm that sperg who only ever wants to play as medieval england for the 1000th time
Close. HRE actually.
>making games about the military systems of other cultures triggers me
No, my complaint concerns the Cartoonish campaign map, the casualization of unit types and history and the elimination of any and all character development for the generals.
I've moved on to /gsg/ and so should you.
It's only powerful enough to be useful in a low friction environment like space. That's only if it's really reactionless, but that's something so profound that it would require better evidence then they've been producing. Much better evidence. So far it's been looking like some kind of PR stunt.
100 uN of force in exchange for 80w of energy
the force scales logarithmicly proportional upwards in a nice curve and we are at the bottom of what is possible according to the latest paper
BUT THATS JUST IT
ITS A PAPER
BULLSHIT THEY DISCOVERED JACK SHIT
SHOW US IT MOVING SOMETHING
Also they are fuel less but according to the paper it runs on microwaves so yeah... maybe you can fly a plane with it but you will give everyone else without shielding from cancer....cancer below
just like all these popsci meme fedoras
>Eaglework hasn't released no peer-review paper
INTO THE TRASH IT GOES. This is the same thing about Lockheed "breakthrough" fusion reactor. They haven't posted a peer-review paper. This is all hype for more funding. Learn about funding in science, faglords.
If you weren't so culturally stunted you would know that Japan has a different drawing style to the west which appears more "cartoonish" to us. Fucking open your mind, fucking gothic knights aren't the be all end all of military history
Now can we get a non-sensationalist explanation?
>ablating high energy copper ions off the back
It sounds so incredibly sensible and realistic. It makes perfect sense and sounds grounded and reasonable.
>Maybe mach effects are real
I want to believe.jpg
Following a stream of results that cannot be reproduced by independent groups on the same phenomena testing a device that was explicitly designed on a pure bullshit theory is going to require some really fucking good data for me to take it seriously. I would like it to work, but it is very unlikely as they have not produced anything nearly convincing to overturn Noether's theorem and the massive mountain of other evidence supporting it.
We've had threads like this since late 2014 right?
It's late 2015 and this meme drive still hasn't done shit.
It will be late 2016 and people will still be talking about how this meme drive supposedly works.
I don't follow physics news, I'm mostly a chem/bio guy. But I was reading this thread and some news about the Em Drive. And tell me, /sci/. Why don't they just ASK Sawyer how the thing works?
He designed the thing after all, he should be able to explain the principles of it.
Iunno. He seems to have found something, unless its a measurement error, but he didnt necesarially have to understand what he was doing.
Dont other posts in this thread say that we *have* asked him, and his explanation fucks physics? So its almost certainly not that, if its really doing something. I like this anons post
Maybe. But itd be fucktarded for us to just throw up our hands and say 'YEP, EVERYTHING WE KNOW IS WRONG' because one proposed explanation for a thrust signal that may not even be real says so.
>I'm willing to bet
you sound like my Grandpa
>ehehe! I'll construct a useless magic device and convince hopeful goyim to give me shekels!
>Now on to the theory how it works...
>hfw the machine actually works
>Memedrive actually works, produces thrust without needing to carry fuel
>However, tests reveal that it is not in any way reactionless
>/x/ and /pol/ and crank youtube videos dont note this second part
>Cite 'BUT THE MEMEDRIVE WORKED' to defend their shitty ideas in violation of the basic functions of reality
Here's how it works:
The microwaves distort the gravitational field a slightly bit more towards the wide end, that means its effectiveness is directly proportional to the strength of the gravitational field it's residing in.
This means that it's strongest while on the surface of bodies, but thanks to the Sun it's still a viable method travel between the inner planets, but beyond that it's only useful when near a planet.
The jig is up, now you fags are going to have to come up with other bullshit "law" that you pulled out of your ass to account for this.
Better get on it instead of posting on /sci/. If you wait too long, people might not even want to swallow your bullshit anymore.
you mean...yours don't?
Genuinely I believe what the experiment has proved is ablation...but the energy input that it used is too damn efficient....there has to be something else.....
If it does work I am sacrificing people to slaanesh wannabe up there...
You would need a very low friction vacuumed horizontal windmill and even then you would make very little energy. Solar panels in comparison would probably be a better solution since were not running out of sun anytime soon.
Their first paper has already been peer reviewed, but didn't control for lorentz forces. They did what they are doing now, which is releasing the initial results and getting the paper reviewed.
Well since it apparently violates conservation of momentum then it should also violate conservation of energy, it is a perpetual motion machine. As for your idea, sorry but it wouldn't work, it's only producing something on the order of micro-Newtons, that's not enough to over come the inertia of the windmill blades, let alone those blades in wind.
>Why does everyone think this is possible? nevermind thrust and space ships it would allow for free energy by giving a constant force regardless of velocity
Because the laws of the universe aren't absolute and a experiment that constantly produces thrust that shouldn't be there is enough to make one at least consider the possibilty
Yes, yes, John Baez is very clever, but that's wrong - or at least dishonest.
Every time they reduce the errors, they also reduce one or more of:
>The power the drive is tested at
>The size of the cavity
>The Q-factor (it's "quality" as a resonating cavity)
By quite substantial amounts; all of which would be predicted by everyone involved to reduce the thrust signal. (These are mainly reduced because it makes it easier to control for other sources of error)
For instance, the large Chinese results were conducted at tests at 2,500 watts.
The NASA tests were conducted at 17 watts, and a Q-value of ~7300.
And the Dresden University of Technology tests were conducted with a 700-watt microwave oven magnetron, but at an absolutely garbage Q-value of just 20 in the vacuum tests.
>there are people that studied physics and maths for 4+ years, learning and assuming incorrect things
>your entire career and countless hours of studying and applying knowledge has been wasted
>b-b-but muh STEM degree!
lol. /sci/ on suicide watch.
>if the drive works then the theory is clearly true.
The theory is clearly false. They tested the drive in a "control" configuration where it shouldn't have produced thrust, according to the theory, and it produced the same amount of thrust.
Right now, they're trying to figure out where the thrust comes from. Pretty much everybody who knows anything about physics would bet their house on it being explainable with existing physics, and would bet at least a few thousand bucks on it not being useful for space propulsion.
The NWPU model of 2010 (details published in 2012) that ran on 2.5kW apparently had a Q factor of about 1530 (calculated from specified resonant frequency of 2.45GHz and 3dB bandwidth of 1.6MHz).
Experimental results from a new model testet in late 2013 (published in early 2014) show that the resonant frequency and quality factor of the resonator system are 2.44895 GHz and 117495.08 respectively. (Diagram looks like active tuning during operation, similar to what NASA now does.)
If this scales linearly (not so sure) it would mean 23mN/W or almost 7 million times the 'legal limit'. Let's wait and see..
Honestly I think that when the time comes for the EM drive to bring humanity into the 21st century, we shouldn't let any of the disbelievers benefit from it.
Though you may laugh now, I assure you that you won't when we are all flying around our star system, generating free energy and living amazing lives overall whilst you are all in the slums for those who lacked faith. Fuck you.
thats not how anything is going to work ever.
And it wont lead to immediate colonization of space because we've never done a sustainable space habitat where generations of people can just live even once before, and itd be fuck-hard to do.
And the energy requirements for even remotely near term terraforming are OBSCENE.
>And the energy requirements
We have infinite energy, just have faith that the EM drive works.
>we've never done a sustainable space habitat where generations of people can just live even once before
We would build huge palaces on every single rocky planet in the solar system. There would be no need to work and all of the food and supplies would be generated using infinite energy.
>We have infinite energy,
Yeah, nah, if it works it wont be in any way that produces infinite energy. The notion that it works doesnt have to mean it works as one person says it does. Particularly when how they say it does implies bullshit like infinite energy.
So, feasibly speaking how does it perform against other rocket types. Say, a conventional Ion engine?
I know some people were claiming that if you fed it enough energy, it'd perform akin to a chemical rocket.
Basically, the big barrier to reaching other star systems is velocity. We just can't get there fast enough. Lightspeed isn't even the limit here - there are destinations worth visiting within 10 or 20 light-years, a reasonable timeframe even at half of lightspeed - the limit is how close we can get to lightspeed.
The fundamental limit to THAT is delta-V and specific impulse, the change in momentum (impulse) you can get out of 1 unit of fuel - or equivalently, the force you can get out of propellant flow rate. If you measure propellant in kg, you get a specific impulse in units of velocity.
And because the rocket equation is exponential, you need absurd amounts of fuel to get up to relativistic velocities. If you want to double your delta-V (the amount of velocity change you can make with your rocket), the amount of fuel you need roughly *squares.* (More accurately, the ratio of (fuel mass + payload mass) to payload mass squares, but for high velocities payload mass is pretty negligible.)
For instance, Project Daedalus - a hypothetical fusion-powered interstellar mission concept - would have used 50,000 tonnes of *fusion* fuel to accelerate just 500 tonnes of payload to 12% of the speed of light - but not to slow it down, merely letting it fly past Barnard's Star and take pictures on the way.
Even fusion, however, is ultimately terribly inefficient in terms of fuel usage- you're wasting most of the energy of the fuel, because 99% of it is still locked up as mass. The most efficient possible rocket, using the tiniest amount of fuel, would directly convert 100% of the fuel's energy to photons, and emit the photons as exhaust. This gets you an incredible specific impulse of 300 million Newton-seconds per kilogram - assuming you're converting 100% of your fuel mass to energy.
This would let you get away with the same parameters as Project Daedalus - 500 tonnes to 12% of lightspeed - with just 563 tonnes of (antimatter/matter) fuel.
...the photon rocket is - necessarily - the *least* efficient rocket in terms of thrust per unit of input power. Unless you have a ridiculously high-power energy source, like antimatter, you're not going anywhere in a hurry. After all, you have to deliver 100% of your momentum in the form of energy, rather than getting to save energy by tossing mass out the back. Converting that specific impulse in terms of mass to one in terms of energy (by E=mc^2), we find an abysmal thrust-to-power ratio of 3.33 billionths of a Newton per Watt.
So while we can get insane amount of dV out of a tiny amount of fuel, it takes forever to get there. Without ridiculous power sources, such as antimatter, the stars remain closed to us.
The EmDrive claims it can do even better, by giving you better thrust per unit power than this theoretical maximum - enough to make meaningful thrusts and insane delta-Vs accessible at the kinds of power conventional present-day power sources can put out. Exactly how much better a practical EmDrive would be than a photon rocket is really up in the air right now, because the higher-precision tests have all been under conditions that are thought to make the EmDrive much less effective, so without any underlying theory worth beans there's really no way of knowing how much of the reduction in thrust is due to eliminating spurious effects and how much is to the drive itself getting worse.
And that's really what's critical here. A photon rocket gets 0.003 mN/kW. If the EmDrive can do much better than that, achieving thrusts on the order of 100 mN/kW - the kind of thrusts we accept out of ion drives - then we're in business.
Of course, the *really* optimistic predictions depend on the EmDrive actually doing better than photon rockets in terms of energy needed for a given delta-V. If we assume that the thrust-per-kW ratio is constant, then this does automatically follow, after all. This would be great, but...
CORRECTION: Not 563 tonnes of antimatter/matter, 63 tonnes. My apologies, stupid math mistake.
..the basic problem is that this would blow both Conservation of Energy and Conservation of Momentum to smithereens. The nature of the photon rocket ultimately comes from the fundamental unity of energy and momentum in relativity. Anything which produces more momentum for less energy, without also accelerating any reaction mass, will violate both conservation of energy and conservation of momentum in some reference frame.
But anyway, ignoring that, if you could do it with constant thrust then 100 mN/kW would mean you could boost that 500-tonne payload up to 0.12 c using only the energy equivalent of 2 kg of mass - equivalent to 3/4 of the energy of the Tsar Bomba nuclear device, or 4.7 gigawatts of electrical power exerted over the course of a year. This is in the vague ballpark neighborhood of plausibly available power densities, and well within the limits of available energy densities.
Of course, the inventors of the EmDrive, and a lot of its proponents, think you could get much more than that level of thrust per power by using extremely high efficiency (perhaps superconducting) cavities.
But again, since this breaks conservation of energy*, I'll say no more about it.
*Unless what's going on is that the EmDrive is actually pushing off some kind of medium - dark matter, the quantum vacuum, surrounding masses, whatever - making it not so much a rocket and more of a space propeller or jet engine. However, although that could approximate constant thrust for low speeds, it would inevitably start to deviate as your speed relative to the medium increased.
Again, I wish to state that the EmDrive most likely DOES NOT WORK. But if it did, this is why people say it would be useful for interstellar travel.
>you will never live to see the day that Sawyer, like Columbus, is completely stricken from the historical record and labeled a hack because his theories on how his own invention worked are bullshit
> instead you'll live with him being labeled the Newton of our time or the Einstein of our time even though he just got lucky and has no idea how his magic memedrive works
Ok. I'm no scientist so correct me if i'm saying shit, but:
What if this shit actually work BUT can only work on Earth because it's actually electromagnatically levering itself against the Earth's own magnetic field ?
I think it's not a mathematical error, but I think they just forget about a stupid shit like the fact that ALL of the experiments were conducted on Earth.
Wouldn't that save it from being "muh fundamental laws breakerrr" ?
just because you want to see it in action doesn't mean that the rest of your society wants to spend millions of dollars testing something that they can see any meaningful purpose for it to exist.