>>7645033 Hur durr!!!!! Med school is the hardest school to get into. If you got in a top tier school like harvard you are more intelligen than 99% of the population. And if you are a neurosurgeon.. Is a safe bet that your iq is higher than 140.
>>7645049 Most people get into Med school by being really good at rote. Med school also does not require more than that. Their IQ is almost certainly above average (> 100) but 140? Not a chance. Some would be close or over, of course.
>>7645112 ok, to practice medicine you need to deal with patients and their families, some of whom are desperate and very demanding which requires knowledge of psychology and some degree of diplomacy, as well as the ability to educate and convince people that your decisions are good practice.
you also need to understand law and ethics and apply that understanding to your practice at all times.
you need to be able to work unusual hours and deal with significant stress in ways that don't affect your judgment.
you also need to stay up to date with current best practices, which could fall into the "memorization" category, but to a much greater extent than that required by engineering, due to the constant developments in the field.
but mostly you need problem solving skills, memorization is the foundation but when you get into the very complex problems involved in keeping someone healthy by balancing a set of health conditions with the associated therapies, and all the side effects and interactions of said therapies, memorization will not help you with the nearly unlimited range of considerations and potential outcomes.
you also need decision making skills to be able to diagnose a condition based on the data you have available, considering the full range of signs, symptoms and comorbidities that people typically present with.
most of those skills are required in engineering in some reduced form but in a completely different context, and usually far removed from actual human consequences.
>>7645163 the board is also full of mildly autistic engineers/"hard sciences" people who try very hard to defend their conviction that being some sort of number crunching tool making under 60k a year for the first 20 years of their working life is a laudable pursuit, much to the detriment of pretty much anyone who comes here to simply discuss science.
>>7645170 I always laugh at the autistic folk in this board that believe they will make over 120k a year and work at some top research school. They're going to be making under 60k, even as an engineer. By the time they reach their 20th year in their career they'll won't be break the six figure barrier. Only 1% of Americans have an income higher than 100k. 4chan in general believes the PR pamphlet they read about their major and salaries they'll get. They don't understand that most engineers, or STEM workers in general never stay in the same job or change careers because they've been pushed out by age, gender, race, or just being an idiot.
>>7645223 pretty much, i like playing around on computers but would never go into it as a career as the extrinsic rewards of employment IT/CS/whatever are very poor. I keep it as a hobby and will enjoy it til the day I die.
same with hard sciences; if you enjoy playing with numbers and proofs and all that jazz, you can do it in your spare time and it will be much more fulfilling because you'll be able to choose what you dedicate your time to work on.
this is the only advice you need if you're choosing a course or "major" as they call it in the states. study your country's job outlook publication, choose a career path that you find interesting with a high demand and salary, and keep away from anything competitive or with poor advancement prospects. if you make 6 figures a few years out of school, you can have plenty of free time to do engineering puzzles if you want to do that (i suspect you won't, haha).
>>7645254 Marketing or PR for the win. Lots of hotties and easy job. I can do my proofs, coding, and science at home in my spare time. Its rewarding. Working as a researcher in industry fucking blows. You'll be researching bullshit for a company to make a profit. Academia is horrible due to the politics and funding issue. Just do what Einstein did and find a job that requires no brainpower and spend your free time doing your own thing. CS/IT are horrible careers because of the ageism. Tech companies fire "old" programmers and engineers. >>7645259 Most nuclear engineers are in their 50s who worked as a technicians or different specialization of engineering before becoming a nuke Eng. Most nuke Eng work for the government and their pay grade is GS-15. That requires at least 15 years of experience in some technical capacity.
>>7645283 >Most nuclear engineers are in their 50s who worked as a technicians or different specialization of engineering before becoming a nuke Eng. Most nuke Eng work for the government and their pay grade is GS-15. That requires at least 15 years of experience in some technical capacity. well the only nukes i know are under 30 and got jobs either in industry, research, or with the DOE or general atomics straight out of uni. but whatever you say
>>7645289 Keyword few, and they'er not making that money. They are making entry level salary. Which is 40-65k. I work as an engineer and I know the reality of the industry. Most people just leave by 35 because the job security is not stable. You are moving job to job because your job is the project you're working on. This is why a lot of engineers go on and work in technical sales or selling insurance/investments. Its stable and pays better. Scientists are more screwed because you usually don't need a lot of those people and they're more expensive to keep. Their equipment is not cheap. Far more expensive than what engineers use. Also those salaries about our job is not true. Tehy only record those working as engineers, not those who majored in the field. Most engineers don't stay in the field. So the likelihood you stay as an engineer for twenty years is very low.
>>7645295 well, you know more than me about it, you're probably right. but i'm guessing the guy you're talking about is unusually talented or very lucky, and doesn't represent the profession. >>7645298 i currently do 6 hour days, and take off whenever i feel like it. i also have a staff of nice ladies who do the majority of my work for me. I'm also on a number of managerial committees and will probably be able to get a seriously good promotion if i get bored of my current work. 5 years out of school, 126k.
>>7645223 >Only 1% of Americans have an income higher than 100k I don't know how close that is to being true, but the average incomes of computer, chemical, and mining engineers are all over $100,000/year. For other engineers, it hovers around $90,000.
Those are overall averages. The averages for experienced engineers are higher. Entry-level averages are generally around $60,000
>They don't understand that most engineers, or STEM workers in general never stay in the same job or change careers because they've been pushed out by age, gender, race, or just being an idiot. More than half of people with engineering degrees work as engineers. Engineers who change careers often go into business management. Nearly a quarter of people who get engineering bachelor's degrees go on to get a masters or PhD.
A lot of people leave engineering because they have options. People who start out earning $60,000, and keep getting raises, can pay off their student loans quickly, get a house and car and pay those off, save up a retirement fund, and then just dick around with a small business or whatever they want to do in some low-cost-of-living area, because they don't need much money.
An engineering degree isn't a guarantee of success, but the schools hold engineering students to pretty firm standards, and even outside the jobs that legally require professional engineers, that gets you a lot of respect in the job market.
>>7645306 >Engineers who change careers often go into business management. this is the sweetest plum, technical background/foundation, then into management. absolute tippy top of all career paths i guarantee it
>>7645311 Assuming the talented ones go into management and not the fucking morons. >>7645306 The average is skewed because of silicon valley. Every engineer knows this, and even in NYC they don't break near those salaries of SV. Entry level is around 50k. But most engineers leave before mid-career to go into management or law school.
>>7645329 engineering in general. Also Nuke eng is a field with low numbers and too many grey beards retiring. Not that many kids are going into Nuke Eng. So this is a field of engineering that doesn't represent the norm of engineering. Its basically mechanical engineering with a three more classes in physics and chemistry. Its a cool field, and the biggest employer is general atomic in San Diego.
>>7645033 I'm not a doctor but my parents, are and I asked them that exact question before. Doctors need to be intelligent, sure learning the symptoms of diseases is just rote learning but doctors do much more than that. It's pretty common for two problems to have the exact same symptoms and doctors have to figure out what the problem is. It's not just rote learning, if it was then doctors wouldn't exist and webMD would actually be useful. Doctors used to be completely incompetent in Ireland. People were literally dying of preventable diseases every day as a result of this. Then IQ tests were introduced in the entrance exam to medicine. Now we have the 9th best health system in the world.
>>7645580 This is /sci/ they use IQ as a dick waving tool. >Huur ddurr I haz 160 IQ therefore I z bettar han u. >fook u m8 me IQ is 180, fight me If /sci/ bother to read anything on IQ they would know it stopped being used thirty years ago because it didn't predict someone life. So a lot of educational systems dropped the test. Only neckbeards, social status moms, and African countries stuck in the 19th century use the testing method. By the way before anyone ask I took the test many cycles ago and I got 130. Doesn't mean shit. One of science best minds in the last 200 years was Feynman and he had an IQ of 120.
>>7644877 You'll find that Ivy League schools don't have impossibly high IQs in the student body. I've known classmates that went to the Ivy League with IQ's around 120 or so. The average Ivy leaguer isn't an idiot, but I've tested around the same or higher.
The difference is that Ivy League students have any one or more of the three.
1. A work ethic 2. Money 3. An admissions jackpot.
They're all at least slightly brighter than the average person, but they aren't all super geniuses, just people that worked during school/had a good upbringing to value education. Or just lucked out with rich parents.
>>7645911 I've taken IQ tests, and they're pretty much just glorified standardized tests. It's really only a reflection on your scholarly progress compared to your peers, your short term memory capacity, and your puzzle solving skills. While that might sound like a reasonable analog for intelligence, it fails to take in account things the person might have learned outside of academia such as social skills or field specific knowledge(like an understanding of electrical circuits or computer science). It also fails to take into account the emotional/physical state of the brain and its effect on cognitive function. The same person could take an IQ test twice in the same month and get a notably lower score the second time because of nothing more than poor sleep and diet or a bad breakup.
>>7646031 >your short term memory capacity, and your puzzle solving skills. Yup, that's intelligence.
>it fails to take in account things the person might have learned outside of academia such as social skills or field specific knowledge Yup, those are not intelligence.
IQ has some major problems. One is the insistence on making the male and female averages come out the same (imagine the distortions that would result if you tried doing this for a general physical "athletic quotient"). Another is the impossibility of properly testing long-term memory function in a short test. Yet another is the failure to account for differences of interest, attitude, and motivation (are you the kind of person who gets all fired up to do your best on an IQ test?).
But it still works pretty good at identifying the people who are quite clever or rather dull.
>>7644877 I've never seriously considered medical school because I don't like the site of blood, and it seemed dull and tiresome at first.
But I plowed through O. chem 1 and 2 with ease, and I already had bio and micro bio college credit when I left high school so people are starting to ask me about my plans as if I have some.
What do you guys think? Is it worth it? The impression I get is that med school is so expensive and that it takes so long to make big bucks in the US that it's pointless to become a doctor for financial reasons. Right now I'm just tempted because I like to challenge myself and if I can lose my fear of needles I figure I can lose my feel of blood/guts too. But I won't do it if I don't get enough free time and end up buried in debt.
Might opt for Pharmacist who kills and butchers animals to make his own spiced sausage in spare time. Would be fun to know which chicks in my town have herpes.
>>7647664 He never said what his stats were, merely saying they were "above" average, which could mean anything.
>asians are held to a higher standard Not to get too anecdotal, but ive never met an Asian person who didn't support affirmative action. Even after i explained how it was disadvantageous for them to do so. Although most of them were big supporters of multiculturalism and diversity in every facet of life.
I'm 140 IQ but I have average grades because I'm a pathetic ADD manchild who cannot muster the will to study The first year of medicine the average IQ should be the average of the general population,they all quit after receiving brutal anal rape in the exams,an everage IQ person cannot become a doc,they study hard and put a lot of dedication and ultimately fail while people like me ,a fucking slob who plays league of legends all day, pass. Also even if normies somehow pass the exams they will eventually be turn off by bloody life and death situations where their overly empathetic brains cannot handle,a good doctor doesnt really care if his patient lives or dies as long as you performed well enough to not take the blame legally.
>Not to get too anecdotal, but ive never met an Asian person who didn't support affirmative action. Even after i explained how it was disadvantageous for them to do so. Although most of them were big supporters of multiculturalism and diversity in every facet of life.
That's because westernized asians have been kek'd by white liberalism.
if you're asian and you support AA you're a shill.
>>7647727 >That's because westernized asians have been kek'd by white liberalism.
Not even m8 It's because asians recognize this is not their country, they are foreigners & will always be foreigners Ask them if they would like multi-culti in their home countries, and you'd receive a very different answer.
>>7647939 Harvard University: 1,675 Jewish Students, 25% Yale University: 1500 Jewish Students, 27% (That 72% white number looks bullshit to me) Princeton: 13% jewish The presidents of those schools are either jews or married to jews too.
how much does iq matter? I was tested when I was quite young and I got 145 but I often feel like I'm not smart enough to do things I want to do. Am I a lazy fuck who gives up too easily or am I just not capable of becoming a physicist god my senpai Feynman?
I'm a fucking Mexican but I got a 526 on the MCAT with a pretty shitty GPA (3.4). I don't have any medicine-related volunteering experience, but I did work two jobs throughout undergrad. Think I'll get in?
>>7646031 Historically, IQ tests were developed to detect children with cognitive challenges so as to direct appropriate support to them and to aid in differential diagnosis.
>It also fails to take into account the emotional/physical state of the brain and its effect on cognitive function. Yes, assessing those factors is the job for the psychologist who also administers the test.
>>7646578 Professionals have tests that can be used in long-term memory assessment. These are typically not included in basic intelligence test batteries such as Wechsler's.
>>7650390 >assessing those factors is the job for the psychologist who also administers the test. But the assessment is hard to do properly and the results are ignored by everyone because it's far easier to look "oh IQ 150!, lets hire this guy!" than try to understand the rest of the assessment
"What does antisocial tendencies with narcisstic traits really mean?" "Who care, IQ 150!"
>>7650390 >>It also fails to take into account the emotional/physical state of the brain and its effect on cognitive function. >Yes, assessing those factors is the job for the psychologist who also administers the test. So in other words, that's left to guesswork, subjective opinions, and general quackery.
>Professionals have tests that can be used in long-term memory assessment. That doesn't change how fundamentally difficult differences in long-term memory performance are to test.
People who think med is just memorization clearly don't know what semiotics are.
Patients don't study medicine. The average patient will describe the one or two symptoms that bother them the most and those may not even be the most important ones. Meds have to make a correct interrogatory plus physical examn to get the syndrome the ask for the correct complementary exams, look for results, define the dyagnosis and provide the correct treatment.
People who don't understand that you need to be intelligent to identify these are the same retards who think computer are somehow going to replace meds any time soon.
>>7645049 Bro, you nearly forgot law school. Law school and med school are the hardest to get into. For the most part everything else pales in comparison. Writing a dissertation or thesis in grad school for something like a math Ph.D is admittedly hard, but mostly requires decent logical skills and enough creativity to haphazardly throw some stuff together that sounds somewhat original. The amount of memorization required for medicine or law, however, is a true demonstration of one's intellectual prowess. Never mind having the critical thinking ability to reason through a proof without someone holding your hand, try memorizing the mechanism of action of beta-blockers and SSRIs at the same time.
>>7650831 Yoy can't do semiotics if you don't understand the underlying process. Substracting information by analysis is probably THE sign of intelligence, the ability to imagine or see patterns through someone's specific case.
So yeah the patient says he's lacking air... but why? Does he has a defficiency in his ability to move the his respiration muscles? Or maybe his blood flow is insuficient? Is his ventilation okay? May he be under stress later? What if it's not lack of air at all and rather he's talking about fatigue? Etc etc etc
>>7650837 It's thanks to the educational structure more than anything. You waste 80% of the educational time learning things that you won't remember and have no need to remember, then 20% for stuff that can be important, of which maybe 5% really is critical to remember.
So in the end you learn like 25% of what you need to do a good job from actual studies, the rest you have to accumulate by baptism by fire by being dropped into real world situations, which most people don't handle very well. But hey it's an expensive high status work profession and not burger king so even if you fuck up you have 20 layers of damage control that will trigger in sequence to save your ass and defend the broken education system. Only if you fail in a spectacular/intentional/malicious manner will you get a career ending hit.
Source: I'm a medical student and I feel more like a conman-in training for every fucking day that passes.
>>7650868 I considered going into medicine, research, or both when I was younger. Eventually I realized I just couldn't bring myself to get involved in something so broken.
Between the insurance game (and massively artificially inflated healthcare costs), and therefore the difficulty performing adequate tests, to the difficulty having a profitable independent practice (and therefore getting paid on salary), the pharmaceutical industry, and the general myopia of your would be colleagues, it's just not worth it.
I have never, and I mean never, visited or interfaced with a single member of the medical profession in a way that had a positive effect on my life. If I was a doctor, I imagine I wouldn't do a patient wrong, but is that really true? And what about having to dick around trying to help people that won't even help themselves? It's a mess. A mess I want no place in.
>>7650879 >never, visited or interfaced with a single member of the medical profession in a way that had a positive effect on my life. Because none of your complaints probably ever required treatment. And that's part of the problem that I can't tell someone that have the common cold to go fuck themself and not return until they're dead or dying. And the other type of patient comes to complain that they're feeling lonely but forget to mention the symptoms of them being fucking eaten by cancer.
You're essentailly facing an infinite flood of irresponsible manchildren that think you're fucking Google incarnate and will find all their problems in a flawless manner and serve up magic cures and potions like in their vidya games.
I'm in serious doubt that modern healthcare is helping society and people. It feels more like it's a gigantic cash sink created by profit seeking interest and bleeding heart emotionalists that fail to realize that death is probably preferable to an extended miserable life.
Everyone should be given a barbiturate suicide kit when they turn 18 and for people over 70 years of age or 250lbs of body mass it should be the standard treatment that paramedics give.
Also prescription drugs are retarded. Reserve it for antibiotics due to resistance and make everything else OTC, If you accidentally kill yourself then welcome to being responsible for your own fucking actions.
>>7650894 >Because none of your complaints probably ever required treatment. Scoliosis of the spine. Type 2 trigeminal neuralgia. Constant resting heart rate of 130 bpm. Not noticeably sweating, poor ability to tolerate heat, and a burning sensation in the skin.
No. I don't like talking about my problems, I don't like being fucked with, and I didn't want help with trivial things. I went there for a reason, and I got worse than nothing. I wasted my time.
The first I had to figure out on my own. The second, I was considering MS and wanted to look for any lesioning in the brain. First neurologist ordered an MRI, it was clean. She then proceeded to tell me I had migraines. Yep, daily migraines. I questioned her diagnosis and highlighted a few aspects I didn't think quite fit. Before I could even suggest or ask about investigating other angles, she cuts me off and asks me where I did my residency. She then goes to insist I had migraines and then said she didn't have time to deal with "people like me". I became aggressive and briskly left the room. I left calmly and security watched me on the way out. But she was wrong. Even more pathetically she was outsmarted by a pain wracked fucking teenager, what a joke. Next neurologist just looked at me as though he was bored, nodded his head a bit. Said more or less "well I don't know man, let's just throw some nortriptyline at it and see what happens... drive all the way back to Dartmouth in 2 months and if it didn't help we'll try an SSRI or something." Garbage black box testing with the only intention being to treat the symptoms. Needless to say I didn't go for that shit. Next time around, I made sure things were done my way, and I got it done.
Third was severe food allergies. Got lucky on that one.
Fourth was... seemingly some ancillary effect of the allergies. Probably blood pooling in the extremities or widespread inflammation, but the burning sensation I still don't know. Hasn't returned. [Char]
>>7650927 Small sample size, but I haven't seen many other people have better luck. Unnecessary medication always seems to be the first line. Then drugs to treat the side effects of those drugs. "Throw darts in the dark until something seems to stick!" It's broken. It's laughable. Of all the data we've accumulated, of all the technological advancements, of all the improvements in diagnostics. And this. This is what we made.
I was lucky I had a self reliant and critical personality type, as well as pre-existing interest and knowledge so I wasn't as easy to be fucked around. But there was a lot of wasted time, and a lot of bullshit. My perception of the whole could be greatly skewed, I'm only one person. But so far, I'm not impressed. Not in the slightest.
Had I not made my own course, did all the research and thinking myself (while paying them), I'd probably be taking ridiculous amounts of B vitamins per day, on some shitty antidepressant for nerve pain, on an anticonvulsant for visual snow symptoms, and likely with some opiates here and there. Which for nerve pain, obvious wouldn't do shit. With nothing learned, nothing changed, and no meaningful improvement. That's nothing beyond a failure of the field of medicine.
>>7650935 >my personal biased experiece with very few problematics allows me to discard thousands of research about how western medicine has extended life and improved quality of life Kek But after all you're such an intelligent teen so we've got to trust you with this one :^)
>>7650927 >Scoliosis of the spine. Visible on xray if worth treating and a GP can del with that, you probably figured you had a 2mm defect and demand govmint money forever. >Type 2 trigeminal neuralgia. Extremely unspecific and hard to diagnose, but of course you have that.
>I was considering MS why? >I became aggressive >she was outsmarted by a pain wracked fucking teenager
She was probably right with not having time to deal with "people like you", no one likes a psychosomatic wreck with hypochondria that demands every single treatment in the fucking book that becomes aggressive when their stupid whims aren't followed as if they were some kind of royalty.
>food allergies Probably illusory too
>seemingly some ancillary effect of the allergies. You wonder why they just want you out of their fucking office? Because you show up with magic mystery diseases that cannot be fucking diagnosed.
You need psychiatric care more than anything else is my opinion.
>>7650962 >Visible on xray if worth treating and a GP can del with that, And yet, no GP did. I did.
>Extremely unspecific and hard to diagnose, To their credit, that's true. But it doesn't excuse misdiagnosis, then rigidly sticking to your initial conclusion while disregarding issues with it. Indeed, daily migraines make much more sense than an issue with the fifth cranial nerve root itself.
>why? Episodic difficulty functioning in heat, memory issues, burning sensation in the peripheral nerves, and a lack of sweating. I wonder why that'd be first on my list to rule out.
>She was probably right with not having time to deal with "people like you", no one likes a psychosomatic wreck with hypochondria You have little to indicate this is the case. Your emotions and whims aren't a substitute for evidence and legitimately accounting for potential sources of error. You're an arrogant and self fixated child. Reconsider proceeding with med school.
>demands every single treatment in the fucking book That didn't happen. Unsubstantiated assumption number 2 from you, treated as fact. Bad habits anon. I didn't want treatment, I wanted answers. Any treatment would evolve from that.
>that becomes aggressive "Aggressive" is short for "rapidly stood up and leaned over the table, then yelled "people like me!!?"" She was on the other side of the room. Assumption number 3.
>when their stupid whims aren't followed as if they were some kind of royalty. It's the patient's health and wellbeing that's at stake there. I'll interface properly with a person who acts their age and conducts themselves appropriately. Assumption number 4. "You must think you're royalty for not taking whatever you're given." What disgusting lack of self awareness. [char]
>>7651022 >Probably illusory too Measurable. I rejected it at first too. I was a teenager after all, I thought the body was much more durable than it really was.
>Because you show up with magic mystery diseases that cannot be fucking diagnosed. That's wrong, and retarded. You have all the wrong mindsets and I doubt you're in med school. You know next to nothing about medicine or biology.
>You need psychiatric care more than anything else is my opinion. You need to quit med school. Before it's too late. You're very clearly the kind of person who can't tell reality from the things they concoct in their own head. I'm serious, drop the idea of medicine, you don't belong there. Pick up psychology instead. It's good for people who can't or didn't figure it out on their own, and it'd probably do you some good.
IQ doesn't mean shit. My iq is over 140 and I'm a failure because I have no drive, motivation, or social skills. The only thing that sets me apart from any other neet is that I'm good at some kinds of math
You know, this actually managed to get me pretty goddamn irritated.
What's with medicine and this extreme near baseless skepticism? Yes, nocebo exists, people can imagine things. Aren't you so gosh darn clever! Even if you barely know yourself, you know a bit about somethin' afterall!
Eat food -> face becomes flushed -> patient's blood pressure measurably drops, heart rate increases to 130+ bpm to compensate -> patient exhibits disorientation and clumsiness, is clearly not havin' the most fun time. Oh, I know. They're imagining it. Yes, certainly. By some means their mind has tapped the ability to cause the body to do this. It isn't histamine, it isn't epinephrine, it must be of strictly psychogenic origin. What a sensible assumption.
A patient describes massive pain on a near daily basis. Patient correlates it with eating, showering, and shaving. Ah yes, it must be migraine. Daily migraine. Otherwise, they just gotta be making it up. Yeah that's right. Not only are you borderline non-functional and miserable, YOU'RE A GODDAMN FUCKING LIAR TOO. YOU'RE IMAGING AND CONCOCTING THINGS AND TOO STUPID TO EVER CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY, MUCH LESS CEASE THE BEHAVIOR.
YOU NEED PSYCHIATRIC HELP. Someone ought to pound your fucking head in.
Learn something from this. Think for once in your life. Or don't be a doctor. If you're rolling here, 10/10. You're a cocksucker piece of trash who's probably a net negative for the world as a whole. I'm done, and gone. You're mentally retarded in the truest sense of the term, and in the context of this thread, that says a lot about the posited IQ figure. Doctors definitely have a varied and complex job with many demands and a lot of room for error. In your case however, any difficulty will rise near solely from yourself.
>>7651058 >being this mad Chill up special snowflake. Obviously you with no medical education have correctly dyagnosed three different patologies before and better than docs. Hell why bother studying medicine at all, people should just google up and treat themselves after all doctors are full of shit
>>7651022 >Episodic difficulty functioning in heat Like everyone else, and this is in no way specific for MS unless you have some specific deterioration associated with heat. >memory issues Like everyone else and this is also not specific for MS.
>burning sensation in the peripheral nerves Unspecific again and can fit pretty much any other neuropathy and a dozen or so of psychiatric disorders.
>a lack of sweating. Again not specific for MS.
MS symptoms is episodic assymetric deficits that can appear pretty much anywhere because MS doesn't have any preferred center of attack in the CNS. You probably burned a shitload of bridges by deciding on a highly popular diagnosis before going to seek out diagnosis, thus the neurologist does the specific diagnostics, they turn up nothing and now he have a patient butthut over the missed guess and a billion complaints that haven't gone through the normal diagnostic circus.
> Reconsider proceeding with med school. I'm finished in half a year and you're a nightmare patient for anyone. You're the "oh shit not again" guy that people no longer prioritize for treatment but for diplomatically getting rid of asap because he's going to burn out anyone that have to deal with him. You're the kind of patient that comes in strong with all the fancy pants diagnoses self-assigned, and every attempt to verify it fail. Then you die five years later because it actually was paraneoplastic cancer symptoms but you spent so much time chasing your delusions that no one ever had time to put you through the same test batteries as a docile patient.
>I wanted answers. Yeah, you came in wanting an MS diagnosis and then wanted them to patiently check off everything on your self-compiled layman disease list. They started humoring you for one examination before realizing how much they fucked up and threw you out.
>She was on the other side of the room. And probably expecting you to pull a gun or knife any second and end her life.
>>7651022 >It's the patient's health and wellbeing that's at stake there. Then be a good patient and cooperate instead of a self-entitled gigantic cunt. You're dealing with real people who have a fucking job and if every patient was like you we'd have to pay medical professionals so much that they could all retire after 5 years of work. And most of them would probably kill themself before that even so.
Go to a psychiatrist and get on antipsychotics, maybe after that you can be diagnosed but probably all your symtoms disappear by then.
>>7651286 >Like everyone else, and this is in no way specific for MS unless you have some specific deterioration associated with heat. Spare me. I know what MS is and how it presents. That's why I wanted to rule it out.
>Unspecific again Because I'm going to write you an essay.
>Again not specific for MS. Never claimed it was. It's about clustering of symptoms. If what the cluster points to doesn't pan out, or you have better ideas along the way for individual elements, investigate those. That was my method.
>You're the kind of patient that comes in strong with all the fancy pants diagnoses self-assigned, and every attempt to verify it fail. More assumptions and a delusion of more substance behind them than you really have. You're a broken nightmare for anyone to deal with no matter the profession you land in.
You don't seem to get it, so try to drop some of that myopia before continuing. I've already thought about it from the physician's angle, but the inverse doesn't seem to be true. I have to live in my body and have the most experience with it over a long period of time, I know how it behaves. I know how it reacts. I came up with multiple potential causes and needed to evaluate them. There was no delusion of certainty, it's just a mess of constant wonderings.
>>7651596 >Yeah, you came in wanting an MS diagnosis No, dumb fuck, wrong yet again. If you want to be a doctor, learn to shut your mouth and listen. Your amateur attempt at evaluating the psychology of a patient is wanting at best. Stop trying to delude yourself into you're more prepared than you really are.
I came in because I don't have the resources or equipment to evaluate anything myself. I needed tests, and to be honest, I kind of hoped for meaningful feedback from someone who supposedly was supposed to know more than me, and was supposed going to be drawing from a deeper knowledge base. That didn't happen. I can't do a blood test myself, much less have a fucking mri machine kicking around. What the fuck do you think this is?
>and then wanted them to patiently check off everything on your self-compiled layman disease list. In the absence of a more solid diagnosis, bingo, that's exactly right. With tests I could better adapt and narrow things down and had a better capacity to control for error. Unfortunately, that's a trait I didn't observe from them. And I kept at it until I found it. Because at the end of the day, I'm the one who has to go home and actually live with it.
>They started humoring you for one examination Stop making guesses. Your guesswork says more about you than anything else.
She was the one who pushed the MRI initially, given that she was into the migraine diagnosis and wanted to rule out tumours, blatant structural anomalies, etc. She called it a "rite of passage". But really, keep making your flimsy guesses. Real professional.
>much they fucked up and threw you out. That's not really accurately representing it in either case.
>>7651600 >And probably expecting you to pull a gun or knife any second and end her life. How cliche. Yeah, real high stakes delivery of a diagnosis. I bet she was panicking inside while she was writing down her B-vitamin recommendation.
We were having a casual conversation. She was moving around the room to get papers and shit to write with. For fuck's sake, all these assumptions. Do you realize how stupid you are?
>>7651293 >Then be a good patient and cooperate instead of a self-entitled gigantic cunt. This is the stupidest shit a human being could have drip out of their mouth.
Is it self-entitled to not want to patiently pump yourself full of drugs over a long period of time, hoping for it to magically indirectly indicate the real basis of your problems?
Is it self-entitled to want to deal with your body and overall health in a coherent and reasonable way?
Is it self entitled to not be willing to stick with a diagnosis that doesn't fit, a doctor that dodges questions and avoids problems with it, then tells you they don't have time for your shit? Is it self entitled to want real answers?
Usually, it's the patient that ditches the doctor at the point. Unfortunately for me, I'm apt to try to use them instead. I need the tests I want somehow, and skipping around for months on end isn't the way to do that.
How moronic. You've clearly scarcely seen the healthcare system from the other side. And you clearly don't know anything about the psychology of an average patient that feels trapped in life. You're an overgrown child.
>>7651596 >I know what MS is and how it presents. No you don't, so you sent you poor fucking doctor on a goose chase until they realized you're a nutcase patient that they ejected.
>Because I'm going to write you an essay. Don't give a fuck about your life history. If you can't present a reasonable and summarized complaint you'll get shit-tier treatment and you deserve no less.
>my method. Idiot.
>rant rant rant present a good complaint with good history instead of this present nutcase exhibit and you might get somewhere.
> I can't do a blood test myself private labs offers that, at $£€ cost.
>much less have a fucking mri private again, just say you're willnig to pay £700 and you'll have your fucking MRI with no questions asked.
> What the fuck do you think this is? A hysteric teenager with delusions of grandeur that don't materialize, leading to a secondary identity crisis.
You think everyone must humor your desire to get a special snowflake diagnosis for why you're retarded. Answer is that you're just retarded. You can of course get a diagnosis for that, but as mentioned previously that's the domain of psychiatry.
>>7651293 >Go to a psychiatrist and get on antipsychotics, maybe after that you can be diagnosed but probably all your symtoms disappear by then. Learn to read. This story is years old, that era of my life is dead. Thanks to me and only me, the issue has been identified. The root of my trigeminal nerve is misplaced and easily compressed. It's constantly rubbed on to begin with, but made much worse by rigidity of the muscles in my shoulders and neck. That's what spurs the difference between baseline pain and hell. As long as I manage that, and don't touch my forehead, it's manageable.
I probably won't ever have surgery. But that requires further thought and my life is in a very detached place.
I went through the possibility of migraine. Ion channel dysfunction from malnutrition or heavy metal poisoning. Evaluated vascular malformation in the brain itself, auto-immune problems, all sorts of shit. It took a while to branch out and peg down the right avenues to assess. But to think all along it was just a simple mechanical problem.
>>7651625 >No you don't Go on? Let's see some evidence, or at the very least, a well reasoned, substantial argument. I keep trying to push you into functioning reasonably and making this interaction have some kind of value, but you aren't taking the hint. So there it is. Provide some reasoning behind your baseless claims.
>Don't give a fuck about your life history. You're going to have a terrible time as a doctor. There are 4 main types of people that can cause difficulty: -Someone who tries to tell you what they think you need to hear most, potentially skewing the bigger picture in the process -Someone who tells you almost literally everything -Someone who gets flustered and ends up able to tell you little to nothing of value on their own -Someone who's there to use you
Grow up. This is how the real world works, and this is how people function. Get over it. Get used to it. Or get used to failure and uselessness when you refuse to adapt.
>present a good complaint with good history That's what I did. More assumptions anon, hopefully this helps you figure out the differences between a reasonable assumption about reality, and shit you just made up. I'm a very decent person to work with, but I won't sit back and be pushed around either.
>private labs offers that, at $£€ cost. 2much$4me
>A hysteric teenager I was more a disjointed mix of cold and communicative.
>delusions of grandeur History of being very critical of myself. Grand levels of self disgust at the slightest fault.
>leading to a secondary identity crisis. Hadn't finished the first one yet.
>special snowflake diagnosis That's not really how I work. I've lived most of my life largely alone. What I can be relative to the group's perception naturally comes through thin, I get most of my shit to keep going from elsewhere.
This is getting comical how terrible your guesswork is. But you just keep at it. Why? What is even happening here?
>>7651656 What's wrong anon, that tone of your's is changing pretty quick.
Come on. It's obvious standard ways of approaching problems are inadequate. Whether or not they catch all edge cases is irrelevant, I've highlighted blatant flaws.
Humans aren't gonna stop being less human. Unfortunately your unwillingness to learn anything from this doesn't bode well. You're not even a doctor yet, and you're already full of nothing but horseshit, excuses, and ass covering. Why bother?
>>7651682 >It's obvious standard ways of approaching problems are inadequate. No. The standard ways are sufficient. Neglecting special snowflakes is a perfectly accepted strategy because your kind is so fucking rare and diverse that it's literally fucking impossible to cover for you while maintaining sensible medical spendings and educations. It makes no sense whatsoever to teach students about patients that virtually don't exist, and to cover all of them you'd need to study for 100 years.
There's some very rare diseases that can ruin quality of life completely unless detected early but your case is just a heap of dicks that no one wants to touch.
>>7651746 You aren't understanding what I'm saying.
Consider the behavior of the people I've described and where certain decisions lazily contributed error. Consider arrogance and dim tendencies towards self certainty, or just outright apathy. Worse still, -look back on yourself-. Without even knowing anything about me, you seemed willing to brand me a hypochondriac if not an outright munchausen-esque psychotic malingerer. And based on what?! Zip. I doubt you'd have that kind of nerve once you saw a patient face to face and had actually begun to practice, but nonetheless, the attitude speaks volumes. You'd rather throw an inconvenient patient to the wolves. I've said it before, I'll say it again, if that's the case you have absolutely no business practicing medicine. It speaks volumes, and they're a pretty shit read.
Either way. Yes, I get it. I already understand no one can be everything, and many people can't or aren't willing to expand to try to accurately diagnose something that might or might not even be in their field. They want smooth sailin' the easy ride, the safe route. Taking the path of least resistance. It's disgusting, but it's a quite natural human desire. Whether or not that should be is up to you.
I'm tired and have been awake for more than 24 hours. I have important things I should be doing. Either that or just sleep. Good luck with medicine. And don't be a fuckhead. The patient is human too.
>>7651672 >You're going to have a terrible time as a doctor. There are 4 main types of people that can cause difficulty: >-Someone who tries to tell you what they think you need to hear most, potentially skewing the bigger picture in the process >-Someone who tells you almost literally everything >-Someone who gets flustered and ends up able to tell you little to nothing of value on their own >-Someone who's there to use you Speaking of this, I've never known what I should be telling my doctor other than listing symptoms and/or answering questions. Is there like a preferred protocol for this sort of thing? What things count as mentionable? Should be a class on this in school.
>>7651088 >Obviously you with no medical education have correctly dyagnosed three different patologies before and better than docs. This is actually not rare.
Most doctors aren't very good at diagnosis. There are some things they can recognize immediately, or suspect and order tests for, but for most illnesses, they're fumbling around in the dark. And they usually don't have the time to really listen to the patient, let alone look things.
An intelligent layman who does the research often figures something out after going to multiple doctors who all miss it. This has been true for a long time before the internet. There's a Feynman story about getting a test for his wife that the doctors missed.
People also commonly die of one terminal illness after being misdiagnosed with another they never had. We find out about this from autopsies.
We have no idea how often people get "cured" of an illness they never actually had, but it's an everyday thing for doctors to throw treatments at a problem they haven't bothered to confirm.
>>7650812 You have to be joking. Law school is full of retards. I applied for JD/PhD as well as normal JD programs a few years ago, I got in everywhere I applied (including 3 full rides from the T6 schools) since I had a 176/4.0. I had much stronger qualifications for the PhD but I only got into 2 top 20 programs.
There is no professional school program in the world that isn't overwhelmingly full of idiots compared to a decent grad school program.
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