>>22731924 >going to uni in toronto soon, is it true muslim bitches are sluts? i've heard various stories on here I've never personally met one who was a slut. Like most seem to be kinda preachy and judgmental desu. There's a lot of feminists. Alsoa lot of lesbians, which I guess isn't surprising.
>>22731950 OP are you kill? Yes sorry, blew up. Happens to us a lot.
Also a good deal of those likely aren't Muslim or are staged. Hijab extends far beyond just "throw a scarf on your head" and you're supposed to conceal the shape of your body. There's a Lebanese girl who isn't Muslim but uses the scarf for niche porn.
>>22731981 Probably 5, but that's going off of what others would consider me. I pray when I can, I've read the Qur'an, I fast, etc. I don't follow it to a T, though, and have no interest in taking Hajj for various reasons (Mostly because Saudi a shit).
Islam is less about adhering strictly to a set of rules and more about following the core values like humility, charity, patience, and (contrary to popular belief) equality of the sexes, but sadly a lot of people these days have dumbed it down to what is halal+haraam, and who is kafir (disbeliever).
I'm a revert/convert, though I'm not white. Parents were technically Christian, even the Syrians, but I grew up with my mom who wasn't pious. She was radfem though so she was sort of innocently Islamophobic.
>>22731983 >You weren't wrong, Tbh I kinda of expected a swarm of "Kill the sand nigger" and "How do you like being oppressed". >are you a middle eastern Muslim or an African Muslim? Mixed. About half Middle Eastern, half Northern European white. Most of my Middle Eastern heritage is Syrian, with some Amazigh.
Also fwiw, SE Asia has the highest concentration of Muslims.
>Islam is less about adhering strictly to a set of rules and more about following the core values like humility, charity, patience, and (contrary to popular belief) equality of the sexes, but sadly a lot of people these days have dumbed it down to what is halal+haraam, and who is kafir (disbeliever).
Islam means submission, and is full of rules that you must adhere to. It also, like the Bible, tells you who to kill, and only has it's charity tacked on to morality based on obedience. It also gives instruction as to how to beat your wife, and how many wives you can have, so I wouldn't say it's very gender egalitarian.
Also, radfems love Islam, and anyone who criticizes it according to them is racist.
>>22732057 I'm not a virgin. I'm in my mid 20s and have had two long term relationships, but this was back when I was a lot more secretive about my religion. Islam is actually pretty sex positive, just doesn't condone things like adultery, rape, or following meaningless and harmful physical desires.
>>22732074 Pardon the long response, it's hard to address these things without detail. >Islam means submission English and classical Arabic are very different languages, so you can't take English translations at face value. Any knowledgeable Muslim will even tell you that if you want to fully understand the Qur'an, you should learn how to read it because even the most praised translations can be messy. It's a very contextual language, so some words can be translated into English words that don't even remotely relate to one another.
People use this to their advantage to sneak their own malignant ideals into the religion by spin-doctoring ayat and changing the intended meaning of things. Salafis/Wahhabis do this all the time and western Islamophobes ironically eat it up because they have no desire to learn how to read the books on their own and just want anything to justify their ideas that Islam is a violent, hateful religion. Worst of all, a lot of non-Muslims fall for their bullshit because sites run by Salafis and Islamophobes (Islamqa is a big one) manipulate Google's ranking algorithm to make their sites appear at the top of results, so people who don't know any better see them first and think they're providing reputable info.
That said, when you think "Islam means submission" without context, it sort of paints a very negative picture. Salema (which "Islam" derives from) also means peace and purity. It isn't about wholly bowing down to a tyrannical God, it's about adhering to the virtues presented in the Qur'an, which is said to be "the word of God", and pretty much every time Allah is mentioned in the Qur'an, it's followed up with "most merciful".
>and is full of rules that you must adhere to The Qur'an is the word of God and stands above all else. It's not the only text, though. There's also the Sunnah and Hadith. Sunnah is like... firsthand account of the Prophet's words and actions. Ahadith are third party and thus can basically be made up by anyone who has some sort of religious leadership. Most of the "rules" people perpetuate are from the Ahadith, and therefor should be taken with a grain of salt. One of the key points of Islam is that if it contradicts the Qur'an, it's bullshit.
>It also gives instruction as to how to beat your wife, and how many wives you can have, so I wouldn't say it's very gender egalitarian. The "multiple wives" thing is actually a very good example of things getting pulled out of context and twisted around to sound bad. Men were allowed to have multiple wives not for *them*, but for the women and children. Things were obviously much different back then, and before the advent of Islam, women were mistreated and perceived as property. Widows and orphans were common, and men were allowed to take on multiple wives so that those women and children could be provided for. It is a bit patriarchal, but makes sense for the time period. It doesn't really apply in modern times because women have a bit more independence in modern society.
As for beating women, again, ancient Arabic words being given a literal and very negative English equivalent. In context, the line people reference to claim Islam supports beating women actually implies turning away from them if they've done wrong by the religion. The line opens stating men are the protectors of women, so to say that they should beat them contradicts this.
>>22732330 >tells you who to kill, It tells you to engage in combat with anyone who engages in combat with you, but cease fighting if they cease. It doesn't tell you to kill anyone, and states the opposite. The only reason you should ever seriously hurt someone is if you have no choice but to defend yourself from someone who is doing the same to you, and only after you've given them significant time to stop.
>Also, radfems love Islam, and anyone who criticizes it according to them is racist. Feminists do, radfems (particularly white radfems) don't. There's a huge disconnect between western white feminists and Muslim women, where Radfems keep trying to speak over Muslim women on issues within the Muslim community to a point where a lot of Middle Eastern girls are really repulsed by white feminists. Radfems often have this notion that women in Islam are oppressed and that hijab is forced upon them, and shuts down any Muslim girl who claims otherwise.
>>22732342 Hey, uh, sorry if this sounds a little ignorant, but... Why do you think salafi thinking has achieved the RELATIVELY high appeal it has? I know the Saudi leadership endorses it, but is that it?
>>22732342 You seem smart, but really delusional and defensive about something that is obviously close to your heart.
If you can interpret a text or religion in a thousand ways, the best thing to do is to look at it in action, in reality.
Women's issues? Maybe they are out of context, maybe they are in context - who cares, in reality it means they are second class citizens.
Violence? Yes, no, bla - in reality, the majority of even moderate Western Muslims condones shit like the death penalty for converts.
Sex-positive but "against meaningless and harmful desires"? So, against pleasure? And what is harmful or has meaning is not decided by the individual who has a thing for anal, but by the elders?
Like I said, you don't seem dumb. So why do you put so much effort into rationalizing something that is objectively bad? Wherever Islam gets any kind of power or political weight, it leaves behind scorched earth.
To be honest, and not a defender of Islam, but this description could probably be applied to the Old Testament, too. Both were written a long time ago by people not necessarily following certain guidelines for religious purposes.
>>22732391 There's no clear answer, so this is just my own interpretation.
Salaf basically means "ancestors". The Salafi movement seeks to take things back to "the old days" but this is like trying to shove the square peg into the triangular hole. Islam sought to reform a "broken" society so a lot of rules pertain to social injustices that simply don't exist today in the degree that they used to.
I think Salafism's popularity is heavily rooted in culture of the area. Devout Muslims have this idea that god wills everything (This is true for other religions too it seems). Like, there's not much sense of individual influence, it's just "Inshallah" or "if God wills it". Since Salafism is about going back to the roots of Islam, Salafi seem to believe and sort of progression is deviation from how things should be. Like they dislike Sufi and Shi'a because they think their ideals deviate from original Islam.
That said, Salafi actually aren't all Daesh Jihadists, some are just like oblivious, innocent, racist grandma's insomuch that they just don't realize how how their ideals don't really work in modern times.
The popularity of the movement could be part of culture, and how it's promoted as being "the right way and God's will" in an area with a culture closely tied to religion.
Again, this is a personal interpretation. I'm not Salafi and I haven't had enough one on one interaction with them so I could be completely off. so take this with a grain of salt.
>>22732395 >If you can interpret a text or religion in a thousand ways, the best thing to do is to look at it in action, in reality. I believe the core of any religion is in the values it teaches, not the actions of the people who claim to be part of it, because humans have a tendency to justify shitty, immoral behavioural with anything they can- be it religious, political, societal, or mental illness related.
>>22733534 >Women's issues? Maybe they are out of context, maybe they are in context - who cares, in reality it means they are second class citizens. In Saudi they aren't allowed to drive and need a man's permission to do anything, but Saudi doesn't represent the whole Mideast. Other countries aren't as strict and have women in political power and they have more rights in general than they do in bass-ackwards Saudi and Afghanistan.
The cultural pitfalls of Mideast countries aren't necessarily linked to Islam (Plus Islam isn't the only religion in the Mideast). Islam was the first religion to give women many of the rights they weren't granted in the western world until the 19th century. Just because a lot of people have forgotten or consciously ignore that shouldn't really demonize Islam as a whole.
>Violence? Yes, no, bla - in reality, the majority of even moderate Western Muslims condones shit like the death penalty for converts. No one I've met in my immediate community condones any of it, and I live in one of the highest concentrations of Muslims and Arabs in the US.
>Sex-positive but "against meaningless and harmful desires"? So, against pleasure? And what is harmful or has meaning is not decided by the individual who has a thing for anal, but by the elders? Trying to condense my post sorta removed the meaning from that. Meaningless and harmful desires basically means things like rape, sexual assault, adultery, or irresponsibility that could lead to passing VD (they didn't have quite the medical technology we have today to treat and prevent these kinds of things, obviously). Having sex isn't harmful, being irresponsible or consciously violent about it is harmful.
Islamic writings fully endorse foreplay. Like Islam enforces the idea that pleasuring your wife is a way of honouring God. So no, Islam is absolutely not against pleasure.
>>22733569 >So why do you put so much effort into rationalizing something that is objectively bad? It isn't objectively bad, just that it's misunderstood as such since it's currently the world's biggest boogeyman. Rationalization implies taking something that's very blatantly negative and twisting it into something else, but everything I've stated thus far is directly from Islam and unchanged.
>>22733578 On a historical standpoint, as a US residing Muslim, what are your views toward historical events in the middle east, such as WW1, and the 6-Day War? Any insight on how those events are viewed within the non-Western communities there? What are your thoughts on T.E. Lawrence?
fellow muslim anon here it's a really interesting thread and anons are being fairly grown-up for a change uhmm my question is why do you think the arab world are not open-minded as the rest of the world ? it's like we closed our heads and take no new ideas and shit why are still so undeveloped
Just read this in a book the other day. The koran/quran itself is holy, so arabs rejected printing press technology in 1500s and decided to stick to caligraphy while the rest of the world learned to read.
>>22731924 >going to uni in toronto soon, is it true muslim bitches are sluts? i've heard various stories on here
nigga they're everywhere, especially in universities there are an abundance of wealthy middle eastern kids for some reason. But they're just like other girls, even if they wear a hijab, it's just a thing. So it really just depends from person to person.
But what uni are you going to and what town are you in?
>>22733660 Most of my history knowledge is in more ancient history so I can't really be too insightful on this topic
The way the countries were divided and the reasoning for it plays a major part in the chaos that exists today (and not just Palestine vs Israel obviously). It's like tossing Reddit, 4chan, and Tumblr all in one big room together and expecting them to cooperate with one another. Different cultural and religious groups have very different ideas of how things should be done. I think the Europeans knew that and wanted to cause turmoil so they could continue aiding conflict and thus maintain some sort of control over the region.
But hey, maybe I'm biased because I want people to stop throwing rocks and sand at each other over silly things, but know that's unlikely to happen with current political divisions. I don't hate Europe or anything, I just hate how things played out.
I have met people who think that white colonialism is solely responsible for every bit of current chaos, but I think it's not the fault of any one specific event or person, and far more complex.
As for Lawrence, he actually isn't talked about much among Arabs and Muslims. He was "Just another over-glorified, conceited, fickle white dude" to many who do have an opinion of him. I just have a neutral opinion on him in general.
Sorry that's so vague.
>>22733736 If they're pious, you can't. Pious Muslims don't do the bf/gf thing, they marry. Also many believe they should only marry a Muslim man, and many other believe they should only marry a man who believes in the same God, so Jews and Christians mostly.
>>22733763 Honestly, I think poverty has a hand in a lot of the mindset out there, but I also think it's blown out of proportion in Western media.
>>22733905 I don't see how this relates? Also this is distorted misinformation, though that's probably your goal.
>>22734247 This isn't something I really discuss with people, lol. And (ironically) most of my Muslim friends are male.
>>22734611 >>22734251 >especially in universities there are an abundance of wealthy middle eastern kids for some reason. It's Toronto, which isn't far from Detroit, which is next to Dearborn, which has a huge Arab and Muslim population because Ford.
>>22734301 Views tend to vary. Sunni seem to consider it haraam, but shi'a are a bit more up in the air, with most regarding it as permissible if the wife agrees to it. But I mean, it's not like anal is a frequent discussion topic so there's no clear yes or no answer that I know of.
This is, of course, just the technical answer. Whether or not individual Muslims follow everything perfectly (or are even aware of these sorts of rulings) is a separate topic entirely. Can a Muslim woman have anal? Yes. Could it possibly go against her religion? Yes. Will every Muslim woman care? No.
>>22734313 I've yet to meet a Muslim that openly hates Jews. Zionists, absolutely, because of the Isreal-Palestine conflicts, but many in the community urge people not to lump Jews in with Zionists, and some even urge people not to demonize all Zionists.
Op I love you. my belief of context is the way I can cope with the world today. The teachings are mentioned to have you survive. In a time long past. How long would a side of pork last in the hot desert before worms appeared. All was take the high road. It's better to defend down hill. Take care of your brothers. Many of the stories in the old testament are about other profits. will you marry me? With our parents blessing of course
>>22734619 Just because you personally know any muslim that openly hates jews that you know of does not mean that there are many
Muslims all over the world who pray for the destruction of the entire jewish entity (including (ex)leaders of islamic nations -> muhammad morsi caught on tape at one of them hate sermons saying ameen repeatedly)
I recently saw some footage where they dressed up an algerian muslim guy as a religiois jew to see what would happen. Nukka got his ass beat up and had to run for his safety a couple of times
Muslims do not need Israel to hate Jews
Muslims hate Israel because it is a Jewish state
If they cared about the land and the ciolence they may as well get as upset over the Western Sahara or any other place where muslims get slaughtered by other muslims. But nope, muslims are more allowed to kill other muslims.
>>22732321 >. Any knowledgeable Muslim will even tell you that if you want to fully understand the Qur'an, you should learn how to read it because even the most praised translations can be messy
weak. there's 1.4 billion muslims around the world. and about 280 million arab speakers. if you're correct, the majority of muslims don't understand their own religious text, but if not, then translations are good enough for them, then they're good enough to criticize
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority"
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"
Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
You use the word islamophobe way too much to be considered rational. You think people who hold Islam in contempt are irrationally afraid of it, as though there's nothing wrong with it's teachings, and hiding behind cries of context and translation. That would be like saying anyone who dislikes christianity is a christianophobe.
>>22735279 As part of the community, I know a lot more Muslims on a personal level than a non-Muslim does. "I saw some footage" doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. You can either listen to someone within the community, or listen to propaganda promoted by people who aren't in it, that magnifies the voices of the vocal minorities to demonize the entire group of millions of people. I'm sure there are plenty who hate Jews, just like there's anti-Semites in other groups, but I haven't personally met them so, statistically, it seems like they're not that common. Most, at least in my age group, don't seem to support the killing of Jewish people.
I can't change your outlook, but you asked, so I answered in all honesty according to my own experiences in the community. Believe what you want.
>>22735725 Hadith is essentially created by people. I mean, so was the Qur'an technically, but the Qur'an is said to be the word of god, "complete and final", if that makes sense. In other words, like I said previously, if it contradicts the Qur'an itself (which is the "holiest of holy" and thus above all else) it is 100% bullshit. Just because a bunch of guys played a centuries old game of whisper down the lane and wanted to write in some more specific guidelines according to what they saw fit, doesn't mean they must be obeyed.
There are also people who call themselves "Quranist" who completely and utterly reject all Ahadith and follow only the Qur'an. There's also people who believe those who reject Hadith aren't true Muslims, saying that Islam is about following the words of Allah and the actions of Muhammad, but it can also be argued that the actions of Muhammad were according to the Qur'an and the Qur'an alone.
http://quran.com/46/9-19 http://quran.com/10/15-25 (especially this one) http://quran.com/5/48-58
>>22737073 True Shariah law is actually nothing like what you see practiced by sketchy politicians in Middle Eastern countries or talked about by a lot of non-Muslim media in the west. It is also not to be forced on the unwilling. Shariah is simply guidelines based on morality and justice for Muslims to live by if they so choose to do so. >There shall be no compulsion in religion
I mean, I'm not saying all Muslims believe in exactly what I've said here- there's a lot of corruption just as there is in any large group of people, but on the contrary, to claim that all Muslims believe in following Hadith and Sharia, and believe in a Caliphate is completely false.
>>22735755 280 million Arabic speakers refers to people who speak Arabic as a native language or 2nd/3rd/etc language- fluently and conversationally. Classical Arabic isn't the same as Modern Standard or regional dialects. I knew a girl who was Pakistani and didn't speak conversational Arabic at all, but could still read the Qur'an decently well (albeit not perfectly, since she was still a kid and still learning).
Also you're kind of missing the point I was trying to make. The point was that anyone- be they Muslim or non-Muslim will not fully understand the Qur'an if they can't read it, so when you take verses at face value as if they're a direct word for word translation you're kind of... doing it wrong. I never said you couldn't criticize the Qur'an, I said criticisms might be based on misinformation.
Even if you don't want to or can't learn Classical Arabic, you can still get a better idea of what the Qur'an is trying to say by reading multiple translations from vastly different sources, or by looking at reviews by people who can read CA to point out whether or not things are altered or contradictory.
>>22737079 >>22736011 Again, do not take anything as a word for word translation, do not take anything without proper context.
>8:12 http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/8/12/ Notice how in many of those "strike off" is replaced with simply "strike", and in some cases even "smite". This refers to the battle of Badr. It is not a command for Muslims to follow, it's a story. Most of the lines used to make it seem like Islam condones senseless killing and violence are not commands, but part of stories of wars from the time period.
I hate using links in a discussion because I believe in being able to explain things in your own words, but I admittedly have had to explain these exact lines so many times and haven't completely woken up yet, so: http://submission.org/Fighting_Oppression_Bible_Quran.html http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/surah8_12.htm Second link is kinda bitchy and condescending, so I don't really support it, but it does give further explanation on that specific verse.
>2:191-193 >and kill them The word used is Qital, which means engage in combat with, not "kill". Once again, these lines refer to a specific war and are not a command to be practiced by all Muslims. Not saying that there aren't Muslims who take these as a command. I mean... Daesh, but according to context and the other teachings from the book, they aren't supposed to be interpreted that way.
I'm not going to address the other lines because I'd just be repeating myself. The Qur'an is a huge book that covers a broad range of topics, it's not just a list of commands, it's a story. As such, many things expressed within it are parts of that story.
>>22737082 >You use the word islamophobe way too much to be considered rational. You think people who hold Islam in contempt are irrationally afraid of it, as though there's nothing wrong with it's teachings What word should I use, then? The instances in which I used it there are true. I am specifically referring to websites run by blatant Islamophobes- not critics.
The people who run these sites take things at face value and either only listen to other critics to support their viewpoints, or listen to Muslims with the end goal to shut them up and speak over them. This kind of willful ignorance and distaste is often a product of fear.
Criticism is fine if you're open to new ideas and interpretations. The difference is that Islamophobes seem to be less about civil criticism and more about telling me and others who are actively part of this religion what *our* religion is about and what *our* book says based solely on cherry-picked translations verses pulled out of context.
>hiding behind cries of context and translation. Are you saying that this is invalid? CA and English being unable to have direct word for word translation is fact. Things being pulled from context, as indicated above, is also a fact.
>>22736751 >leave europe alone pls, thx Tell the Khaleeji countries to accept more refugees rather than pulling excuses like "Oh they wouldn't fit in here" while they're perfectly willing to bring in poorer South Asian people for what's almost slave labour.
>>22735279 Adding to this: I tried to find out if there were any statistics on the number of Muslims that hate Jews, and I found this, which gives a pretty good explanation and echoes my sentiments that most Muslims seem to not hate Jews: https://www.quora.com/Question-with-assumptions-Why-do-Jews-and-Muslims-hate-each-other
>>22735062 >With our parents blessing of course /batman voice "I have no parents"
>>22737152 Sorry, refraining from it as it doesn't really relate to the AMA itself. At least the wording (and the soc mindset) makes it come off more as a question pertaining to me personally rather than me and my religion.
"Tell the Khaleeji countries to accept more refugees"
They stopped being refugees the second they didn't apply for refugee status in the first safe country they entered. The fact that those Syrian "refugees" are assaulting and raping people in their own camps tells me they're not actually refugees.
And how else do you translate kill? Kill is a basic human concept that all languages understand.
And answer this: If you're a Muslim, the Quran says that the word of Allah is perfect and uncorruptable. It also says that Christianity and Judaism are the word of Allah, but have become corrupt. This is a contradiction, which means as a Muslim, you should become a Christian, and a Jew. These religions all have mutually exclusive and contradictory teachings.
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