>>43020902 >What amazing physical feats are high tier fighters capable of in your setting? Depends on training and such. Really high-tier martials need to start training from birth or 6 years of age (when IRL Knight training began according to some of my sources) latest. This includes of course not just physical education but specific education, meditations, pain resistance training etc.
The resulting combatants are incredibly resilient to the point their abilities can negate the effects of sleep deprivation and drowning for far longer than regular humans. Their ability to negate spells is fairly potent as well but also rarely talked about as they prefer not to become target practice for young witches with something to prove.
>>43020902 Strength check vs caster level DC to break field effects like Force Cage, increased movement rates, able to wuxia-run through the air in a charge or a full movement turn starting at level 8.
Rogues can literally dematerialize on a high enough Hide check, and move their regular movement speed per round before editorializing to strike or affect objects.
>>43020902 >What amazing physical feats are high tier fighters capable of in your setting?
You eventually reach a point where the Armor you wear and the weapons you use have little to no benefit over just using your own body.
Your flesh is harder and more resistant than the steel you're wearing and your own two bare-hands are more destructive than any blade, gun or hammer you could hope to wield.
A high tier wizard doesn't have to worry about fall damage because they can create a gale wind or enchant themselves to weigh less to break their fall. A high tier fighter doesn't have to worry about fall damage because their weight isn't capable of creating enough momentum to physically harm their body... THOUGH it'd be best just to double jump as even though the fall won't harm him- the stuff he's wearing or the items he has in his inventory would still be obliterated by the fall.
Another reason why you don't wear equipment if you're a high-tier fighter/warrior is it will often break before you do.
>>43022002 OP gif might actually be quite fit, enough for the muscle control needed for that feat. While strength can help emphasize it, it is more about having the control to activate specific muscles, which I'm sure you can train yourself to do.
Quite a sciency scifi setting, so most players put their dots into smarts and mind-based proficiencies. Body stats only really got used in the usually extremely inadvisable melee combat.
Sounds excruciatingly mundane... right up until the DM (who is a hard science nerd) decided the party needed a mission on a de-orbiting space station. Making Body rolls against G-LOC, hypoxia, struggling even to breathe and trying not to spew your breakfast all over the inside of your helmet at critical moments and some rather wrenching descriptions of characters in distress was more tense than any fairy fitan magic.
>>43022978 http://www.ruleofcool.com/ It's a great system, kind of midway between 3.5 and Dungeon World. Character creation is actually fun. No one plays it, though, and the dev team are all deader than Diana.
A game I was in, the fighter got attacked while heavily pregnant and went into a rage (berserker) and despite all the penalties still managed to fuck everyone up. Her player seemed really worried when it happened though and we figured because she feared for the baby's safety, but we found out later that the DM kept rolling to see if in berserker mode each round if she noticed the penalties of being pregnant, and in her mad rage just tensed all her muscles and crushed/expelled the baby to remove the penalties in order to fight better. Also at the end she ran down a guy in full plate and crushed him in the armor with a bear hug.
>>43020902 Applying combat to everything. As wizards adventure they learn new spells from books and items they find. Fighters learn new methods of combat.
It begins with weapon fighting but will likely expand to pugilism, athletics and horsemanship. Many will learn to apply their skills in the form of leadership on the battlefield. Some learn the arts of the siege, how to position and operate mechanical weapons. Particularly canny fighters may even learn the arcane applications of their deadly gifts; while the subtle power of proper sorcery elude all but the most wizardly brain fighters will find rods of blasting and amulets of bodily protection well within their set of talents.
A wizened fighter is beast like no other. While the road of martial mastery is long and gruesome those that survive are become living weapons. Every building is a fortification, every tool is weapon and every ally is an extension of their wrathful fist.
>Basically Fighters get a combat bonus which they can apply to more and more things as they advance. >Not all fighters find themselves on the front lines. Some who are old or permanently wounded use their abilities to command minions or coordinate mechanized attacks. These guys add ether Int or Cha to their combat bonus to attack
>Wuxia warrior monks are pretty much Fighter+Mages. They gain the ability to perform extraordinary feats but their proper combat advancement is stunted. They will likely never command large armies and rely on mystic arts to empower their attacks. While their fearsome styles can quickly overwhelm their mundane counterparts a trained fighter will know patience and preparation lay these mystic-warriors low.
>>43020902 The man of great physical prowess is the rock upon which all space and time breaks, dashed and scuttled at his feet. He is the deluge that erodes worlds and stretches over the lip of the abyss. He thwarts psychics and reality-warpers with the resolve of his existence. He draws the mystic and arcane into himself as one draws venom from a wound, and guides it by his own will.
Supremacy isn't about whether you use your body, or your mind, or magic or technology. It's about How Good you are at doing what you do. To me that makes a martial type of character worth using instead of just background noise in a game where wizards are the stars.
Basically anything. A person who has trained hard enough and has enough willpower and dedication can transcend mortal limitations on skill and ability and do crazy shit like >>43022115 eventually. The greatest fighter in the setting is basically a combination of a solar exalt and pic related. There's very little he can't actually do.
>>43022115 >Fly by being so good at swimming that you can swim in air. I thought Fighter started flying because the first time they survived a suborbital fall made him believe they had slain Gravity. Mayhap you're confusing that event and his winning Drownball together?
In a conversion of 5e to FFXIV's setting, each character can come into possession of a Job Crystal that imparts the latent knowledge of the skills and techniques of the greatest warriors of all time.
Warrior types who possess the Dragoon Crystal learn how to leap 200 feet in the air and can close massive distances with a single leap and can use them as part of a charge attack, getting +2 to hit with Spears.
Paladin Crystals owners (we make a distinction between the class and the job) learn cover and can take damage in lieu of their ally.
Warrior Crystals grant the bearer the Warrior's trance, allowing them to double the amount of damage they can take before dying and remain conscious and fighting when at negative HP at the cost of Stamina damage when they take a short rest (-2 CON).
Monk Crystals give you the elemental fist where your chakra takes on aspects of elemental damage and counts as engergy attacks for all your attacks as well as the suplex, A special attack that acts a charge attack that knocks a creature prone and does half damage.
My monk eventually became a demon lord. I did the calculations for his stats now, and he's easilyy capable of punching through 2-3 inches of adamantine with a single punch. If he used gear, it would break long before he ever did.
>>43025025 This question is quite literally, what is the limit for human potential in your setting?
Is it equivalent to current life? Where the best may lift like half a ton with a lifetime of training and luck? Or can that training and luck push you further past that?
Is there a hard limit on how much a man can bench press? Exactly how many train cars is it theoretically possible for a single being to suplex in your setting? If the answer is anything other than infinite, you're doing fantasy wrong.
I have an excellent image for this, but my computer is hiccuping and I cannot attach it.
>>43027693 If you think "fantasy" means "Internal consistency is a suggestion at best", then you're doing it horribly, horribly wrong. There are still rules to a fantasy world. They probably aren't the same as the rules on Earth, but you can't just declare yourself able to bench press the universe and actually be able to do it for no other reason than that declaration.
The gripe about suplexing infinite train cars was mostly light-hearted joking, not an actual suggestion. Maybe half a ton, maybe a few tons with proper training. Maybe 100 meters in 9.8 seconds, maybe 100 meters in under 5 if you're really the cream of the crop.
Some of these guys went further than that, but fighter = bland is a very lame equation to make for everyone involved. Monks need not be the only route to martial supernatural potential.
>>43020902 There's close to no upper limit. "magic" is a combination of belief and emotion. a loved heirloom blade is sharper than a newly purchased chunk of metal. So a legendary figure everyone knows is stronger is stronger. Reis, captain of the Crimson Roger, is a violent monster who can best anyone in combat. Everyone knows this. So he is. and he can.
>>43027854 That's not what he's saying at all. He's just saying you can't suddenly decide your character can suplex a train when there's precedent for someone would be able to do that in-setting. If that's a thing that can happen in-setting then go for it, but if it's a more down-to-earth situation then you should probably have a spell, or magic artifact, or divine intervention allowing you to do it.
>>43026761 The problem is that the lead developer was forced to leave and cut contact before the final release. Without him, the dev team collapsed in on itself, the final release came out two years behind schedule with zero promotion and zero hype, and all interest dried up. It's a crying shame, but, in the immortal words of French!Kurt Vonnegut, c'est la vie.
>>43028045 But you aren't them. Sure, we can say there are lots of warriors in a setting that can't suplex trains, but that is no limitation on anyone else. You can easily go "okay, normal humans cant suplex trains" and then when you reach higher level let someone suplex a train because they are no longer a normal human.
You don't need to make it external to justify it, internal change can easily justify it. Gods, magic items, rituals etc, these are all external and take away from any kind of heroic fantasy to make a character into a slave. Characters can just as easily learn new tricks, grow stronger or unlock abilities naturally without an outside source.
It's fucking stupid to say "well that guy can't do it, so that other guy cant do it unless a genie lets him". >>43027787 Internal Consistency does not mean internal sameness. What one warrior can do does not have to be consistent with what another one can unless those warriors are very close to being the same. Same level of strength, same training, same species, same equipment, same fucking life. Otherwise you can have a different result.
>>43028691 Listen, actually read what I'm typing and quit inserting an anti-shenanigans strawman: If people can use willpower to override physics in-setting then that is the same god damned thing as using magic/gods/relics/etc. It's all about intent and themes of a setting/ story, not the specific means by which characters allowed to preform unrealistic feats.
- Comfortably lug around 650 kg's worth of equipment. - Make use of an Autocannon as a standard assaut rifle. - Carry 200 rounds of ammo for it in her ammo-backpack - Throw a Terminator-armoured man a good football field's worth of distance. - Comfortably shrug off small arms fire with skin tougher than Carapace armour.
>>43020902 >block a meteor with your sword >punch a guy so hard he bounces off the Mountain Not-Olympus and lands on the other end of the continent >punch a guy so hard he gets retconned out of reality and replaced with something else >punch a reflection of a guy so hard you create a mirror clone of him to fight for you >punch a guy so hard every single guy in his army gets punched too >punch literally everything you see in one instant. Twice. >literally rip reality a new one and become an eldritch creature temporarily. Then rip it a new one /again/ and turn it into calvinball monopoly. >do the above again but /differently/
>>43020902 They say that the greatest warrior of all learned how to cut time, and so he sliced his history apart, creating a world in which he achieved all his greatest feats and beyond without ever lifting a blade.
His final discovery was that he had gained love, but had not gained LOVE. If that makes sense.
The hate martials get in gaming is more than a little absurd. Magic users don't just get away with murder they straight up get rewarded for genocide, whereas martial classes in many core systems and settings are actually capable of less than people in the real fucking world have demonstrated in feats of strength speed and endurance. Any attempts to buff up fighters to compensate are often met with scorn for being overpowered, because a warrior leaping to the roof of a building or punching straight through platemail breaks the suspension of disbelief of a player who just blew a hole through a giant with fireballs that exploded out of their bare hands.
I think it really boils down to competing power fantasies. If the wily old wizard can't totally outclass the wild barbarian in every single way then it just isn't fun anymore, or something.
Whenever you hear about someone going days on end without rest, shundering mountains, or holding their breath for an extremely long time, they're usually one guy who has some relations to the gods that allows him to do all this crazy bullshit.
If everyone's capable of flexing a ki blast that can shatter the moon, it's just an errant clusterfuck where one omnipotent tool has to outdo every other omnipotent tool of a similar power ranking.
Why do you think most epics only has one or two guys capable of doing epic level bullshit and why stories that have a team of them (X-Men, Avengers, Justice league, etc.) always shit themselves once power creep steps in?
>ITT: what AMAZING physical feats are high tier fighters capable of >If everyone's capable of flexing a ki blast that can shatter the moon, it's just an errant clusterfuck where one omnipotent tool has to outdo every other omnipotent tool of a similar power ranking.
>High tier >Everyone
Yeah, so what's the problem? In any D&D campaign, there's going to be a handful, tops, of people actually considered actually high level.
>Which is why the team-based game "Dungeons and Dragons" should have teams of people with different degrees of power >And the player who chances to pick the "Fighter" class should be the one with the lowest tier of power, because the most powerful man in many epics is the warrior-prince and I hate epics.
There's been people who wrestled angels to a draw, people who have been able to survive 12 of the deadliest trials known to man, people who have traveled to the underworld and played music so good that even the dead stopped to enjoy it.
But never a story where someone was able to flex their ass clefts so hard that reality ceased to exist.
It just seems childish to say that, just because magic is designed to fuck with reality, martials should be able to break reality too because they didn't skip leg day.
Especially when there are builds that are essentially muscle wizards that exist.
I'm impressed. Most of the times these threads demand D&D martials have stuff that ranges from thousands of times more powerful than wizards (if a wizard can disintegrate a 10x10 cube, slightly more with metamagic, a fighter should be able to destroy hundred mile wide mountains in one hit) to merely a couple times more powerful (not!spells that lack limit restrictions, spell components, etc. >>43021955 ) but most of these are pretty reasonable.
Some of them are a bit dumb like >>43021965 having martial types evolve into monks.
Took me a bit to find >>43023934 someone of the 'wanting martial types to be 1000x as powerful as wizards' variety.
>>43027693 Human potential isn't a bad benchmark for martials in and of itself, the problem is that its grossly imbalanced. A good marksman could win a 1v100 fight under certain circumstances and beat most monsters "realistically" but not so much a good melee guy or good pugilist, but in the interests of fun it would fit better if this was generalized to all martial types.
So I'd envision the top RL and top fictional martial type to be of similar prowess, but the latter have more variety and often better tools as well.
>>43030101 Romanian myths had the Scholomances, one was about a "good" (or neutral) Scholomance and the other was one led by Satan, in which one student (not sure whether he was the star pupil or the flunkout) is taken away by the Devil to ride a Zmei (kind of a dragon with a gem in his forehead) to create storms.
Just like dead sexy, lovable, wifeable waifu vampires, the origin of Hogwarts style wizard schools is in Romanian myth, though in this case a schoolful is 9-12 students a year instead of 100+ a year.
Dracula's original ability to change forms etc. came from his Scholomance training, not his vampirism.
>>43032698 Ahahaha, perfect. I like how in S&S stories, the martial hero triumphs over the evil wizard typically by being smarter and stronger of will than him (the typical martial hero is strong and skilled, but more brutally kunning than "dick slap the colossus to dust in one hit"), and typical /tg/ contrarians instead want a setting where the fighter just gets a constipated look and sends a shockwave of notmagicnotpsi to smash the castle apart, throwing the adventure site in the garbage can.
>>43028355 You better fucking get him to recruit players from here because as a massive fan and backer of legend (despite never finding a group) I would be so fucking down I'd drill into the earths core.
>>43032174 Before Cai's birth, Cynyr Ceinfarfog prophesied that his son's heart would be eternally cold, that he would be exceptionally stubborn and that no one would be able to brave fire or water like him. Cai is attributed with a number of further superhuman abilities, including the ability to go nine days and nine nights without the need to breathe or to sleep, the ability to grow as "tall as the tallest tree in the forest if he pleased" and the ability to radiate supernatural heat from his hands. Furthermore, it is impossible to cure a wound from Cai's sword.
That's Sir Cai/Kay from Arthurian legend. No gods, only man. And he was one among many.
>>43032224 Not that guy, but I believe it was in response to your rather egregious assertion that high level martials being able to do cool things is equivalent to everyone in the setting being able to shatter a moon.
>>43035461 It really is a shame. Later interpretations took him being hot-headed and turned that into his defining character trait, so he basically turns into a jobber for all the new knights. You know, because cultural shifts and what not.
>>43022002 No it depends on how big your pectoral are. OP probably just works her core and chest/back a lot more than the show muscles (biceps and shit). Because some faggots can't handle a strong nord women.
>>43032224 >>43035926 I'm pretty sure wizards, unless you nerf them a ton (which if you do then everything's cool, low power levels are fine as long as the whole group's like that), can shatter moons and a lot more.
>>43024228 >>43022091 >>43020902 Question... is there any setting, other than dnd, that actually calls them "fighters"? People are going "muh shadowrun" and the like, completely ignoring that in shadowrun it is not a fighter, it is a "street samurai ki adept" who is a motherfucking muscle wizard and not a muggle with a sharp stick.
Something I find annoying with D&D is that fighers don't actually get better at defending themselves after picking the one or two worthwhile feats that increase your AC. A level 3 fighter is approximately as good at defending himself as a level 20, only difference is that one has enough magical gear to build a small fortress out of it. The attack bonus increases rapidly, defense stays the same. I'd say actually being resilient enough and skilled enough to survive dangerous shit should be one of the key features of a veteran fighter.
>>43025123 >captain america >fighter Never called this, ever. He is a soldier, an entertainer, a superhuman, a lab experiment. But he is never referred to as a fighter
>>43020975 Cyborg and nanomancer (a wizard who uses nanomachines to casually violate physics)
>>43020902 Actually, thinking about it. the fact that OP called them fighters is a clear case of bait thread. Incidentally, even the authors of 3e dnd figured out they fucked up, and then tried to fix things with tome of battle. Classes like the crusader, hexblade, swordsage, and other supernatural meleers.
>>43039260 4e D&D had steadily increasing defenses as a feature, for what it's worth. I suppose the opposing viewpoint is that together with steadily increasing attack bonuses it's meaningless number bloat.
>>43039260 >Something I find annoying with D&D is that fighers don't actually get better at defending themselves after picking the one or two worthwhile feats that increase your AC. A level 3 fighter is approximately as good at defending himself as a level 20, only difference is that one has enough magical gear to build a small fortress out of it. The attack bonus increases rapidly, defense stays the same. I'd say actually being resilient enough and skilled enough to survive dangerous shit should be one of the key features of a veteran fighter. that certainly would be nice. yes. especially considering they explicitly state that they are basing their idea on heroes like herecles and cu cuilan and the like who were insanely resiliant.
>>43038936 >wait, the thing is THIS bad > >WTF where have you been? yea, the UN, EU and the other liberal retards are out of control. The rule that "cyber bullying" should be a crime is just one small drop in the bucket
>>43039304 I wouldn't call it numbers bloat unless all classes recieved the same bonus to defense though. If the warriors/fighters are the only ones getting increasingly better at defending themselves it sets them apart from the more root and tooty point and shooty classes and spellslingers. But I see your point.
It's also funny how the main article they're using to push this "cyberbullying=real bullying" crap (the one about online harassment of women) mainly cites a legitimate woman-hating scumbag, a disbarred lawyer, and a con artist.
Friendly reminder that a binary between Magic and Mundane is a modern invention that has no place in fantasy storytelling.
So yes, high-level characters in my campaigns become godlike. They can slay dragons in single combat, run up a falling building, take ballista bolts to the chest, and still get home in time for dinner.
>>43039549 >Friendly reminder that a binary between Magic and Mundane is a modern invention that has no place in fantasy storytelling.
Whose ass are you smoking here? The notion that magic and mundane are seperate have been around since literally forever. Herecles can slaughter an army of muggles because heracles is magic (specifically the son of a god).
>So yes, high-level characters in my campaigns become godlike. They can slay dragons in single combat, run up a falling building, take ballista bolts to the chest, and still get home in time for dinner. >Because it's fantasy, and that's cool. The issue is that the entire argument is a strawman. Yes, everything you said is correct, the thing is, nobody here claims otherwise. Saying that fighters can't do this kinda shit is not saying that some players should suck while others are awesome. Its saying that dnd is a shitty game and that in that game the class called fighter is a piece of shit abomination that shouldn't exist. It should be replaced by a muscle wizard class
>Whose ass are you smoking here? The notion that magic and mundane are seperate have been around since literally forever.
Let me clarify: there is nothing to distinguish the Wizard from the Warrior in that they are both liminal characters, possessing qualities of both the earthly sphere and the spiritual realm. Every Warrior-character of note in mythology has been elevated above the normal through the telling and retelling of these stories.
Every hero in pre-modern myth is both magical and mundane, otherwise they could not be heroes.
And the "fighters are shit" question has only really been relevant in 3E D&D, but since it's the first edition most people played of that game, they seem to think wizards should always be better. I run into these people daily in my gaming circles.
>>43020902 in my setting stupid fighter shit is explained as basically as someone becomes more "powerful" their effect on the fabric of reality increases, fighters who are very high level are basically very very low-rank gods, but since they keep their power to themselves rather than share it with worshipers they end up being pretty powerful despite their low divine "ranking"
>>43040023 >Every spell in the book is quantified and has defined limits to what they're capable of doing.
Yeah, like wish. And if you're homebrewing high level feats for fighters (high level, I should emphasize that, you seem to be assuming fighters get epic level shit at level 1 in this scenario) you'd be writing down rules and limits on what they can do as well. Or at least I hope you are, otherwise god forbid if one of your players wants to alter a spell in any way different from RaW.
>>43039801 >And the "fighters are shit" question has only really been relevant in 3E D&D, but since it's the first edition most people played of that game, they seem to think wizards should always be better. Except this is a bullshit strawman.
There are 2 sides here Side 1: Fighters are shit because their very concept is shit. this is retarded and should be fixed by eliminating them as a class and replacing them with something less retarded Side 2: Hurr durr side 1 thinks that anyone who uses a sword must be a muggle and be kept as a lesser class who plays second fiddle to them because autism
Fighters must be inferior to wizards because herecles was not a fighter, he was a magic man. So was cu cuilan, so was achiles, so was son guku. So was samson. Every epic hero of legend that fought in melee was magic, not a dude with a stick.
The claim that they should be equal is as retarded as claiming that green arrow should be equal to superman because they are both "heroes". except one is a muggle with a medieval weapon, and the other is GOD.
Can you show me a single metahuman game where a muggle/flatscan/norm is the a legitimate character build and the equal of the parahuman/metahuman/superhuman?
Are the mortals in exalted the equal of the exalted? Are the muggles in shadowrun the equal of ki adepts? are the normal humans in WOD the equal of vampires, mages and changeling?
No they are fucking not! the notion of "fighter must be worse than wizard" is not a symptom of dnd, it exists in literally every TTRPG ever. The only issue with dnd is that it is the only game retarded enough to claim that the muggle should be a player character, and it draws a bunch of spergs who create a massive spanning strawman argument wherein anyone who recognizes that muggles should not be player characters is actually for it That isn't to say such people don't exist. they are just extremely rare rather than the norm
>>43040186 so yea... if exalted was retarded enough to encourage people to play a mortal in a party that contains exalted you would have the same problem.
In fact, you kinda do with their lack of power balancing, where some people play a dragonborn in the same party as solaroids. But every single solaroid is magic. Some are sword magic and some are sorcerers, but all of them supernatural.
>>43039891 >Because, dumbass, you fags are proposing a system where martials are capable of warping reality just by flexing their muscles and shit.
That is patently untrue, anon. In fact, I've been making the opposite claim, as denoted here: >>43035434
You are the only person who's been making the assertion that 'cool things' immediately jumps to shattering moons, as evidenced here:>>43032174 and here: >>43035926
Do you see the problem here, anon? You're arguing against a statement that you yourself have made, and you are, in fact, the only one who has made that argument. I'm in the camp that wants cool options for my fighter. I don't want to break the moon, I want to be able to jump 50 feet without having to put half my skill points into jump because my compatriots can fly. I don't need to be able to break stone with my spirit energy, just let me demoralize a group of mooks with a combat shout or something.
But then there's the underlying issue that bringing things that are weak up to something resembling par doesn't cause power creep, so your argument still doesn't have a leg to stand on even if you completely ignore everything I just typed, which given the unwarranted insults, I suspect you will.
>>43040186 >Are the muggles in shadowrun the equal of ki adepts? Muggles don't have to deal with background count, can't be easily attacked from the astral plane, can have significant augmentation, and have more XP to spend getting better at other things because they aren't spending it on magic. >are the normal humans in WOD the equal of vampires, mages and changeling? The normal humans in WOD don't have to deal with the sometimes crippling downsides of being a supernatural being in WOD.
You seem to have this idea that supernatural=unlimited power with no downsides, when in fact, it's usually limited and comes with unique downsides and weaknesses.
>>43040246 >And then there's THIS faggot >>43040186(You) who thinks you should just force everyone to play a wizard. Listen you retarded pus filled smegma sack. "Not a muggle" =! "a wizard". Exalted, parahuman, metahuman, superhuman, demigod, ki adept. Whatever you want to call it, as long as you are not playing a class whose literal entire concept is "hurr durr this is a muggle who for some reason is allowed by his betters to tag along"
And actually, I am perfectly find with people playing a muggle... in games designed for it where literally every single player is a muggle. Call of Cthulu is a perfect example, everyone is a muggle and you run away from the tentacle monstrosity instead of charging in to kill it
>>43040287 >Muggles don't have to deal with background count, can't be easily attacked from the astral plane, can have significant augmentation, and have more XP to spend getting better at other things because they aren't spending it on magic. Cyborgs wielding magitech aren't muggles
>>43039642 >Herecles can slaughter an army of muggles because heracles is magic
"magic" is such a bullshit non-word. gods and demigods are more powerful because they're a superior race of beings, not because they are "magic", whatever that means. you might as well call birds magical because they can fly and humans can't. gods and men were both regarded as fundamentally natural in the sense of arising from nature. both were "magical" (if you want to use that word) in the sense that greeks didn't know how the world worked so, from their perspective human beings were like little golems given motion and thought by souls. the was no division of the world into "normal stuff" and "magical stuff", from a certain perspective you could say that everything was normal or everything was magical, but the only real difference was in the scale of power. pindar says as much in his odes:
>Single is the race, single >Of men and of gods; >From a single mother we both draw breath. >But a difference of power in everything >Keeps us apart; >For one is as nothing, but the brazen sky >Stays a fixt habitation for ever. >Yet we can in greatness of mind >Or of body be like the Immortals,
it's the same in most fantasy settings, humans almost always have souls or "life essence" or some other bullshit, and often the entire world is built on alchemical principles. that's if you're even playing a human, there's no excuse if you're an elf or a tiefling or whatever. you can distinguish between power if you want, make human fighters totally shit, i don't care. but just saying "it's because they don't have magic" is virtually meaningless by itself.
>>43040328 >Wielding magitech Such as what? There is no easily used magitech in shadowrun except for some corner cases (Like spraying a can full of Awakened bacteria into a mage's face to blind them) Cybernetics and magic literally don't mix. The more cybernetics you have, the less potential magic you have.
>>43040287 >The normal humans in WOD don't have to deal with the sometimes crippling downsides of being a supernatural being in WOD. And what the fuck does that have to do with them being suitable/not being suitable as player characters in a WOD game?
>You seem to have this idea that supernatural=unlimited power with no downsides, when in fact, it's usually limited and comes with unique downsides and weaknesses. Again with the unlimimted strawman of the uber retards from side 2. No I am not saying that supernatural is unlimited power with no downside. I am saying that in a TTRPG game where some of the party is supernatural, throwing in a muggle alongside them is hilariously retarded design decision.
>>43040186 > Fighter=Muggle=mundane human This is literally a 3e meme.
The martial heroes in other media are not normal people, but that isn't the same thing as the power of their destiny being magic, unless you define magic as "everything a normal IRL man cannot do".
Which is shit. You are right that PCs in a campaign that reaches mid or high level should be more than mundane men, but arguing that there should be (or is) no super human greatness to be had without magic is totally a D&D meme.
>>43040361 Except you are, because you're saying that magic automatically puts someone so far beyond their mundane counterparts as to be a pointless comparison. Which is objectively not the case in most settings and games.
>>43040354 >Such as what? Their cybernetics. Cybernetics in shadowrun world are magitech. > There is no easily used magitech in shadowrun except for some corner cases (Like spraying a can full of Awakened bacteria into a mage's face to blind them) ... uh, no, literally everything in shadowrun world is magitech
>>43040339 >"magic" is such a bullshit non-word. gods and demigods are more powerful because they're a superior race of beings, not because they are "magic", whatever that means 1. denying the definition of the supernatural makes you a retard. 2. it doesn't matter what you call it, they are not muggles/mortals/flatscans/normies/whatever.
This is actually the whole point of side 2 aka "the strawman side". Your entire argument is not to answer anything side 1 ever says about proper game balance. No, you sperg about the "definition" of the word magic while self contradicting
>>43040446 >Their cybernetics. Cybernetics in shadowrun world are magitech. No, it's not. >... uh, no, literally everything in shadowrun world is magitech No, it's not. But even if you assume that sufficiently advanced technology = magic, an edgemonkey (And no, Edge is not magic, because every single being has at least some) can beat out a cyborg and an adept, probably even if they both team up against him.
>>43040186 Achilles was a fighter (well, probably figher/barb) by class. Also a bisexual crossdresser. His race happened to be demigod, and he took a bullshit OP 3rd party feat that granted him DR 10/heel.
Diomedes was a fighter with maybe a rogue level or two, and he fought three gods in one day. One he beat on his own, one was a tie, and one he won with some divine help.
Odysseus was a rogue (or a bard archetype that trades away spellcasting) with one fighter level. It's canon that he has trapsense, since he was able to out Achilles as a crossdresser.
Hercules was a fighter with the demigod race who happened to have absolutely bullfuck physical stats.
Goku, I'll give you, although I'm not sure who would be dumb enough to claim him as a fighter, seeing as his backstory was basically "and then he learned ALL the magic"
>>43040484 No, they're entirely human. They have no special defenses against the supernatural. They have no special supernatural abilities by default.
The only ones who have any supernatural support are Hunters working for Conspiracies. And even they don't all get direct supernatural abilities. Some have to be grafted on, some come in the form of superscience, others in the form of potions, prayers, or artifacts. Only a couple Conspiracies actually get internalized magic power.
>>43040424 >Except you are, because you're saying that magic automatically puts someone so far beyond their mundane counterparts as to be a pointless comparison. Only in the context of the setting you turbo retard. Name one TTRPG set in a setting where the supernatural is not inherently superior to muggles? you can't because there is none.
The only times the supernatural is ever inferior to muggles is in the occasional humor web comic that is making a joke wit that. Those are actually pretty funny
But in every epic fantasy story / TTRPG setting the supernatural is always better than the muggle. It might sometimes be inimical, which is why you don't use it (see call of cthulu) as it would cause san loss. but in such a case its "run like fuck" and "survive by the skin of your teeth" rather than "a balanced party goes out to slay things".
>>43040484 Only with Conspiracy input or outright joining another splat. A Hunter will always be human first, and then maybe they have the blood of Satan in their veins or maybe they have a Werewolves heart.
>>43040446 >1. denying the definition of the supernatural makes you a retard.
the idea of the "supernatural" was invented much later by christians specifically because, in their theology, god was regarded as something entirely seperate from the natural world that needed his own special category.
but the ironic thing is, in the original definition magic was specifically not considered supernatural. it was preternatural, an unusual or hidden part of the natural world.
none of this has anything to do with hercules whose culture did not make that distinction.
>2. it doesn't matter what you call it, they are not muggles/mortals/flatscans/normies/whatever.
neither are fighters, they are heroic individuals who go beyond the norm.
>>43040525 There is no setting context, because you're making blatant statements to the effect of "Any supernatural ability in any setting with any weaknesses or limitations > No supernatural ability".
>>43040391 >The martial heroes in other media are not normal people, but that isn't the same thing as the power of their destiny being magic, unless you define magic as "everything a normal IRL man cannot do". Wow, its almost like you literally didn't read the post you are replying to
>>43040468 >Technically, anything moving fast enough in an atmosphere similar to Earth's does that. >Fast enough being around Mach 7. it is physically impossible to punch at mach 7, if your fist could move at mach 7 it would disintegrate.
>>43040186 >Fighters must be inferior to wizards because herecles was not a fighter, he was a magic man. So was cu cuilan, so was achiles, so was son guku. So was samson. Every epic hero of legend that fought in melee was magic, not a dude with a stick.
>>43040531 >If you're a D&D protagonist you aren't normal. Especially once you've gained some levels. EXACTLY, this is EXACTLY why fighters have no reason to exist a class and should be replaced by the class "demigod" instead
>>43040545 >neither are fighters, they are heroic individuals who go beyond the norm. Going beyond the "norm" is not impressive when the guy next to you can literally stop time. You need to go past what is POSSIBLE for a norm. Aka, you need to be literally supernatural. Fighters do not do that, fighters are shit. And literally every fix for them ever that made them not shit involved giving them the power to tell reality to bend over. aka turn them into muscle wizards who flex so hard they violate physics
>>43040601 No, fighters fit in fine because fighters are abnormally powerful. See the posts above and below you. Just because your headcanon states that fighters are wimpy wimpy pack mules for you to live out your power fantasties bossing around like they were the jocks at school that used to beat you up, doesn't mean that's how it actually is in the game.
>>43040586 >>43040605 >>The authors of dnd completely fucked up >Hurr durr >The authors of dnd say they meant for fighters to be demigod, clearly that means that their intent to not fuck up makes it impossible for them to have fucked up I Chose my examples for a reason you retards. I was literally giving examples which I read in the dnd manual that were inspirations for fighters. except none of those were fighters. they were demigods and magic men.
>>43040608 Well, Beowulf, to my knowledge, didn't have god-juice in his veins, or magic items, or the blessings of the True God. He was just a dude that was that fucking strong. "That fucking strong" being "could man-handle Elder Wyrms and only died to that last one from being old". Hell, he was given a magic relic sword and it did fuck all, and he gave zero fucks about it.
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