Games Workshop have today put the WHFB rulebook back up for sale on Black Library's eBook section, along with the End Times supplements.
First sign of them admitting AoS was a car crash?
Nah they say it's discontinued, it's the same as them hosting all the old specialist games (you know, when they used to be good).
It's not a sign that they're dead, just that they want to keep jewing the people who hate them by selling them PDFs and models.
If they put it up it means that they know there's or there could be demand for it, maybe not enough for actual physical prints or future supports but that's too see: They're testing the ground.
it's a flawed test: The ones who know how/are willing to buy digital books know that there're easily accessible free PDF's
Nah, just grabbin shekels. Who knows though, they might be dumb enough to think sales of this is an accurate guage of interest in WHFB vs. AoS.
AoS has failed hard in North America though, there is no doubt about that.
Not him, but the LGS where I play was selling the AoS starter kit for $50 because the store owner just wanted to get rid of it. Biggest problem from what I've ha rd is that the power gamers simply can't handle the system being left open to a TO to place restrictions on.
stateside tabletop gamers seem to be the sort that want an arena to demonstrate their skill and mastery of a rules system, rather than playing for the narrative or the social aspects, or to collect for modeling. a lot of the game was wrapped around the tournament scene, and stateside a lot of people may have just hopped into whatever other game has tournaments and rules constructed for competitive tournament play.
while it might seem like a great loss for GW, considering how many people were seriously pursuing WHF as a hobby and buying new models or armies, it's probably not that big of a hit for them, if at all.
really though, i don't think american culture encourages people to play games where the point isn't to beat your opponent and win the game. like, if you can't demonstrate your superiority in a given pursuit and separate the winners from the losers, what's the point?
what helps a lot of armies as well as lifting restrictions is that all the models have good, playable rules now, instead of there being armies where like 2/3 or 3/4 of their model range was unfieldable garbage or clearly worse than other models for their cost.
Swefag here, I have had the same story in my home town. Apparently GW only let independent store-owners get refunds for 8th edition rulebooks and armybooks if they bought a large quantity of AoS starterboxes instead. So there are quite a few FLGS that have more AoS boxes than really anticipated. Hence the sale.
I'm embarrassed to say I actually do this. I cut little pieces of cardboard for the bases and then I cut out pictures of the models and stand the pictures up on the base to make a little barely 3D mini. SOmetimes i color the black and white pictures with colored pencils. All my terrain is cardboard and I play with my gf on the floor with printed out pdf rulebooks in 3 ring binders, all terrain is paper or random crap from our apartment. I really miss painting.
Oh boy that sounds like fun. Instead of rolling dice we can just write 1 thru 6 on little pieces of paper and draw them from a hat.
Fuck it, lets just imagine we're playing a game.
this isn't a really accurate statement considering WFB generally boiled down to 'need 6 to wound' or 'need 2+ to wound', as well as 'can't fail a save' or 'doesn't have a save due to modifiers'. AoS actually has a greater variation in effective success or failure chances than WFB did in actual play.
i know 3s and 4s to hit, wound, and save are the norm in AoS- but they supposed to be in WFB too, except you never saw those units on the board because you could field things that wounded everything on 2s and denied saves and suchnot and couldn't be killed instead. in actual practice the variety was almost totally removed.
Yes, 8th edition was an absolute shitfest of giant monsters, monstrous cavalry, cannons and massively unpredictable wizards that was only made worse by percentage based core requirements.
Everybody knows this, it's part of what killed the game, and it wasn't always the case.
Its the same at my local hobby shop.
They actually have a contract with GW they are not going to renew.
They moved Warhammer total including 40k over to a smaller aisle and replaced the old aisle with Wormahordes.
>There's a reason 'core tax' was called the way it was.
On top of Jewish the players the reason was to not have an army of élite units that wound everything on 2+ or that can only be wounded on 6+
My friends and I just use a ruler to draw 2 or 2.5 mm grids onto sheets of paper and cut out units. If we're feeling really artsy we'll doodle the units on the paper, but that's about as far as we get. Not as impressive as maintaining an army of actual models, but you can try any army or any composition on a whim. Lots of fun.
Yup, it's what's killing 40k and killed Fantasy. There's always been editions of "Herohammer" but they didn't have the resources and technology they do now to exploit it.
It's a mixture of wanting to make £££ from big plastic kits, and a barebones design team cluelessly ruining the worlds earlier members took decades to create.
Why create a tight ruleset when little Timmy and his friend will spend £300 of their parents money to line up silver spraypainted Knights across the table from each other?
Local store was the earliest one to carry GW stuff in America that's still around. For the first time since the owner partnered with them, GW is now firmly in second place in sales. Thousands of dollars in monthly revenue just vanished when AOS came out. He has 8 times as many people interested in Calth so far compared to AOS. That's 8 people.
A big part of it for me was always the need to push out 4-5 new kits every cycle, leaving the vast majority of the army looking like total shit in comparison.
It's less pronounced in 40k because 'man with gun' and 'man with bigger gun' are different enough to justify separate FOC slots. But in Fantasy, we have pre-millenial Core marching alongside the latest CAD monsters and it looks incredibly jarring.
And it's a problem that only gets worse with every release, because redoing older shit is either less profitable than newer kits, or inevitably gets combo'd into a new box that gets criticized for price gouging.
Besides the newest Dark Elves, how many armies actually have a good Core section? Skaven aren't bad, and Woodies are still enjoying their total renovation from ~2007. But for everyone else, the Core is a weight dragging the whole army down.
>how many armies actually have a good Core section?
If you're talking about models and not rules, Vampire Counts. Zombies are pretty crap, but the Skeletons are ace and Ghouls okay. Warriors of Chaos, Ogres, Beastmen, Daemons, and Orcs and Goblins were also fine - their kits might have been a bit old, but were still perfectly nice models.
The only factions which were really suffering from rubbish core models were Tomb Kings, High Elves, Brets, Dwarves and the Empire.
For Fantasy it really may have been that core was boring as fuck to do. I can't see it not being at least somewhat profitable considering core is a requirement to play the game.
The same sculptors seemingly work on both 40k and Fantasy and they might have found it a chore to from having absolute freedom to being constrained and having to make wonky decisions because models need to rank up.
This has been up since WHFB ended, you fucking retards.
Until you fucks have sales numbers and not "my mate's cousin uncles brothers twice-removed aunts brothers half-sisters cousin owns a store and totally says AoS is failing, so it is", shut the fuck up.
I don't give a SHIT about AoS, but I'm fucking fed up of you cunts using it as the "I'm bored, let's go bait /tg/ with AoS not selling despite me having no proof, or anecdotal at best, who cares if it's a logical fallacy and my argument falls flat on it!"
So, this is the 2nd bait thread I've seen today, along with Carnac's "hur dur woymen suxx and shouldn't be in 40k!" bullshit.
Bretonnians still have a pretty good core section.
Knights of the Realm aren't Grail Knights, but they still hit decent.
Just because it looks different doesn't mean it isn't there.
I don't give a fuck about the competition, and yet somehow I'm American.
Fact is, there are a lot of potential causes for a drop in sales. Customers may not like the new rules (models instead of points); they may not like the new fluff; they may not like the loss of the old fluff; they may see the change as a good time to try other new games; they may just be avoiding it to see if WHFB is coming back.
Blaming it on "American Culture" is silly. Especially when the big tournaments are in the UK.
Correct. But there won't be any till April 2016.
Investors have already had a meeting. Sales have been up in general, but no specific mention of AoS. So, until 2016, we're fucked and this shitposting needs to end. Carnac needs to be banned and this needs to end.
Even still, Fantasy was not as integral as people make it out to be, again particularly in the US.
The fact that GW has supposedly printed more copies of BaC than they did the initial AoS starter run shows they know who their main cash cow is.
Calth actually makes me confident they won't dethrone based Bligh and run 30k into the ground. Calth is such a great example of catering to fans in such a way as to make lods mone, that clearly buried in GW is someone who still has sanity.
Games workshop sales at my FLGS have been steadily shrinking since before AoS hit. When it came out there was a brief spike in sales from the pre-order, but now Fantasy Sales have all but disappeared, and less people are buying 40K for fear of the same thing happening there.
always felt the American wargame scene was just starcraft players who wanted collectables honestly.. didn't evne know WHFB was played in USA I thought it was a UK/EU/AUS only thing
While it would suck if AOS was literally supported as much as the Space Hulk or Assassins I think both AOS and 30k boxes are going to be sold for ages and they then will make a second AOS box etc etc. and a second 30k box... pretty sure that's the deal. some one did say they finished making the STormcast eternals now thou.. but I find that hard to believe like that that line is totally done.. maybe.. I don't think Korne counts as a new army so we are now 1 army in to AOS.
You know what would be great, if they ever to retcon AoS and go back to Fantasy, they explain it as a lonely and isolated researcher in a library writing shitty fanfic about all the things he's learned about.
I wrote a two paragraph story about how Teclis had a dream of AoS because of a Chaos artefact. He said it was good that future never came to pass because he wasn't a bad stabbing dick and used his power to nullify the artefact. I don't know if anyone saved it or not.
>First sign of them admitting AoS was a car crash?
Nah, they just sell thrash from the stocks with large discount for WHFB-plebs, they didn't produce new one.
Why do these conversations always loop back to shitting on America. I mean holy shit, I loved/loved WHFB and have a 3000 point dwarf army I've been building since middle school starting with a group of slayers (which are the tightest of shit). Now I know WHFB isn't as popular in the states, that much is true. I can only play games with my brother and my three friends as I introduced them all to it. But I digress, why is it America's fault?
What a lot of people don't get about the tournament scene is that it's equal parts competitive and equal parts community.
Firstly the guys I met at tryhard tournaments are the same people I play the 7th ed BRB +6th,7th and 8th ed rules books mash up now.
Secondly swedish comp rules produce lists that are way more fun than most "casual" gamers ever do.
You're on 4chan, most of the posters are American. Since most of us are American we only know what has been happening in our various FLGS's. Also, GW hasn't given anyone a reason why they axed WHFB so it's all just guessing and pointing fingers.
You actually can play Fantasy in GW stores, depending on the manager.
Really after reading so many experiences it seems like there isn't a set way GW shops are supposed to operate and that as long as they meet whatever goals, they're free to be ran however the manager deems fit.
Much like the Imperium
I know my local GW was apparently handing out what were probably snapfits to trick or treaters this Halloween and there appears to be some kind of Secret Santa thing going on.
Apparently WHFB was less popular in the US and apparently again it was the reason it was axed.
The truth is that it's mostly GW's fault for shitting up the game system, the mini design and the economic model.
It's much less popular than Fantasy and 40K, we know that.
40K/End Times limited edition stuff sells out within minutes if not hours... AoS limited stuff sits there unsold on their webstore for weeks or sometimes months.
Battletome: Stormcast Eternals Limited Edition is still up (1000 units worldwide), and even the AoS core rulebook took more than two full months to sell its 2000 copies (assuming they just didn't put it out of its misery and yank it after enough time).
That's the hardest data anyone is likely to be able to give you; but that sets the baseline, so now the burden of proof shifts to you to prove that it is selling a lot.
The only 40K limited editions that didn't sell out in less than a week was the £150 Chaos Collection, containing three volumes, one of which was released 12 months previous (CSM), the second which was released 6 months previous (CCD), and the third (Black Legion, and expansion only) which was available by itself the following week; and the second the 6E Space Marines codex, which cost £250 and the only difference in content was a lore map.
End Times: Khaine sold out so fast, most people in every territory hadn't even woken up before it was gone.
1. 99% of the content in the AoS limited editions is not rules and not free.
2. Rules become downloadable from people with scanners or, these days, with ebook-to-PDF-converters, within hours. Physical books matter in extremely specific scenarios only (which would be, playing in a GW store, and possibly some tournaments - though not tournaments that allow Black Library DLC dataslates, since most of them are published nowhere else).
3. Even that's becoming less true, practically all of the rules in Kauyon have been published in White Dwarf.
4. Multi-hundred-dollar bundles, costing no less than the individual sum of their models and sometimes even more, sell out quickly in 40K when they're bundled with the promise of a single dataslate, that these days isn't a physical print anyway. There has only been one exception - a Mechanicus one that costs more than a ForgeWorld Thunderhawk.
>1. 99% of the content in the AoS limited editions is not rules and not free.
The main point is that AoS limited edition doesn't have anything important for the game, that's why they didn't sell well. Yet still AoS models sells much better than WHFB for the pasr years.
>2. Rules become downloadable from people with scanners or, these days, with ebook-to-PDF-converters, within hours. Physical books matter in extremely specific scenarios only (which would be, playing in a GW store, and possibly some tournaments - though not tournaments that allow Black Library DLC dataslates, since most of them are published nowhere else).
A lot of people play in GW stores though. Especially the new player market GW aims to target with AoS in the first place. While anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, I see a lot of people with printed AoS rules over a big (and frankly, clumsily so) battletome at my local GW. Even those who have a battletome generally leave it at home since it's so goddamn big, and just printing the six or so sheets you need is easier to toss in a case.
>3. Even that's becoming less true, practically all of the rules in Kauyon have been published in White Dwarf.
For the new models, yes. Not so much the formations, updates rules, new ASR's, gear adjustments and the like. It's also a lot less practical to lunge around four or five White Dwarfs and a codex over just getting a codex.
We're not going to know anything solid about how AoS is going until the financials hit in January, and even then, I don't expect it to really tell us very much.
I will throw in an anecdotal piece because that seems to be the thing to do. I bumped into a nice pair of folks at my local GW two weeks back. The girl was playing a Lizardman army, the bloke Vampire Counts. They both said that they found the 8th Edition rules far too confusing, but the 4 pages of rules they needed for AoS was much better.
This is the group that AoS was targeted at, and in their case at least, it worked.
I find the same. I managed to get some friends of mine into the game recently basically because of the low cost to get into the game. One dude bought a box of black orcs and the plastic savage orc boss, mixed bits and he has this fucking awesome looking black orc boss now (ive never seen someone take to converting so fast), the other guy bought some tomb guard and a lich priest. Both of them just wandered in a bought what they thought was cool, downloaded the free rules and played some games.
Ive been trying to get them into gaming for years, but how the fuck do you justify 120 quid for just the books to play the game to someone, then tell them they need 60 of a unit they dont want that costs 40e for 10 just so they can fill core choices. We are students, nobody is going to even give the game a second glance after telling them that.
Say what you want about AoS, but the rules arent terrible. The key point of the game is how easy it is to get started and play.
The rules are pretty shit when you go beyond "just getting started and playing", though. You end up having to house rule a lot. It reminds me a lot of freemium games who try go hook people in during the beginning parts of the game and by the time players realize the game might not be that great they're hoping they've spent too much money on it to justify stopping.
Theyre really not. There are parts that need to be fixed, parts that werent thought out well enough, but overall the system works pretty well. I like it a lot. Thats why i didnt say the rules were good, I said they werent terrible.
>I said they werent terrible.
And didn't explain.
Also, may be you shouldn't listen nigger's music in school and may be you and your freinds didn't have a lot of problems with money.
I mean if you like it, whatever you do you man.
I was about to go on a huge rant about why I don't like AoS until I realized I haven't enjoyed a GW game since Mordeheim It just dawned on me that I'm going to miss the lore more than WHFB itself
The major problem is a scale problem.
If you want to do an AoS game with like 100 to 150 minis on the table, it's going to take hours and be tedious as shit. WHFB players are used to this scale of game being way less tedious.
>dat ignoring of "try" word
Also, even 40k games more interesting than your example with "one box vs. one box" where you just deploy, moving forward, meet with opponent in the middle and throw "to hit" dices untill some of you lost all models.
It has no point values or other inherent balancing method, any game that requires negotiation beforehand is shit. There are games designed for children to play with army men that have more rigorous army building rules.
That is true, but its the same with 40k or any individual model game. Fantasy was unique in the fact that it could handle games of that size, in fact most games were about that size.
Its actually a good point though. Its better than the same regurgitated shit thats half thought out. You should bring it up in the general, its the kind of discussion we should be having.
Well yeah, nobody liked 8th edition really. The changes they made were the main reason sales were low.
Lots of people were waiting for GW to fix the rules before investing more money, they did not expect them to go full retard and kill off their best setting.
>nuking your original IP so you can sell more spess muhreens* while turning it into a not wargame
Yeah, that was my point. I'm still upset about SoC though, I wish my then naive brain understood how fucked profit machines could be
A game that can only work well for scenarios is crap. Especially when its a replacement for an entirely different kind of game.
>the tournaments did not give the result we wanted? Time to make shit up!
And then they just did it over again but forced the end result they wanted with the End Times bullshit.
As far as I am concerned things stopped with Storm of Chaos.
After 15 years of playing WHFB I'm finally ready to admit it:
The rules suck. The rules always sucked. We played it because of the miniatures, the lore, the entire concept of armies and terrain on the tabletop being so appealing.
There must be something better out there as far as rules go. I've bought the KoW rules, we'll see.
For wargames or something warham esque?
>GW the lore in fantasy warhams is a little stagnant
>ok heres a tournament you decide what to do
>no fuck you enjoy your new game
>but its the same with 40k or any individual model game
40k does it a bit better, and warmahordes doesn't involves having your setting scrapped and your game discontinued.
See, that's the problem. They could have made AoS as a side game, or even AoS as a main game and still developing WHFB on the side, ending up with a ruleset more akin to 6ed/7ed than the 8ed abortion. Except they choose to simply leave the mass battle market.
>>playing pitched battles in a game designed for scenarios.
Oh yes it's soooo interesting to predetermined armies. Still Warmahordes starter/battlegroup games much interesting to play, and not so hard for 2 newcomers.
>Have you actually seen any of the scenarios?
So Watchtower from starter is not scenario?
>i know youre just shitposting,
Of course GW< because AoS much better than other short and fun games, like Infinity or X-wing.
>pick out a single scenario.
>scenario from starter box
All the books have excellent scenarios that dont just end up as blob in the middle. Watchtower is single objective, its always going to be blob on the objective, the same with every other single objective game.
Why don't you just read the fucking book instead of getting him to list off some for you.
Christ most of the people talking shit about AoS havent even looked at it or even played a proper game.
I mean, I'm passingly interested in AoS and was just glancing over the thread when I saw the post and was curious what some of the scenarios were. I don't care much for it in the first place because I'm jaded as fuck with GW after the abandonment of the specialist games and I was curious about specific examples.
Not him but its worth considering is using the Maelstrom of war mission cards from 40k to add a bit of flavor. We tried it and now we run a good portion of our games with them. We do use the standard scenarios a lot too, but we like having x number of objectives to fight over rather than one goal for the whole game.
Do they? AoS blobs no more than 40k or any other system when youre trying to gt models in combat. Like what makes AoS blob? A lot of people say this but never say how or why, or how it compares to other systems.
>AoS blobs no more than 40k
By the virtue do 40k having more variety in unit types (tanks, walkers, etc...) and the game having more possibilities for fast movement (airborne troops and mechanized infantry), there is way less blobbing on objectives. Hell most of 40k games I've seen have 0 troops on the objective before the last 2 turns.
Wargames on the other end avoid the blobbing either by having high lethality if you sit immobile somewhere in the open, or manoeuvres. AoS shares the 8th ed problem of everyone being a tarpit.
>AoS is fine if you play scenarios not pitched battles
Stop using this argument. I've been in these games for 15 years and "Stop playing Cleanse" was a dead horse then.
40k has scenarios and is better with them.
AoS has scenarios and is better with them.
Fantasy had scenarios and was better with them.
LotR had scenarios and was better with them.
But people almost always played pitched battles, because they're easy to set up, easy to arrange, and easy to play. It doesn't matter if the game is better when you play scenarios, history has shown that people are going to play pitched battles, and thus your game has to function when playing pitched battles.
In my province all of the friends I have in every FLGS I've ever been too have been playing for WHFB for years and play and like AOS alot, crazy thing is that AOS nearly killed 40k in each club, however since the Tau stuff dropped 40k has been coming back STRONK.
>Except they choose to simply leave the mass battle market.
Maybe that tells you something about the profitability of it.
Once again, they didn't a new side game based on Fantasy or to continue working on Fantasy on the side, they wanted Fantasy to simply start showing the profit they expected of it.
To be honest this really doesn't come off as a hard hitting criticism when there isn't much more variance in the number you need to roll in either 40k or Fantasy.
Hey, plenty of people apparently seemed satisfied with how 8th was apparently balanced and allowed them to put a bunch of toy soldiers on the table and then remove them by the handful a couple minutes later.
Mass combat non-historical is a small niche of tabletop gaming, pure and simple. The fact that KoW has become what could be called the preeminent game because of lack of of competition rather than anything else about it is proof of this.
>plenty of people apparently seemed satisfied
I mean obviously not since there was a drastic drop in sales since 8e. Really though, it's just a mismanagement of the IP over the last decade The whole thing isn't some overnight problem, 8e / TET was just the last nail in the coffin for a lot of players