>>43461202 >>43461212 But seriously, was Sanguinius not THE fucking primarch? He resisted the temptation of Chaos, had a based legion, was absolute top tier 1v1 fighter, was a genius strategist, and was described as the most well rounded son of the Emperor, bearing all his characteristics in equal measure. Not to mention he was handsome as FUCK.
>>43461611 Guilliman all but said himself that he was a general, a logistician, more so than a real leader of mankind. 20xGuilliman would be very effective, there's no doubt, but people wouldn't rally behind Guilliman like they would Sanguinius - or Horus, for that matter.
>>43461636 >Guilliman all but said himself that he was a general, a logistician, more so than a real leader of mankind. >20xGuilliman would be very effective, there's no doubt, but people wouldn't rally behind Guilliman like they would Sanguinius - or Horus, for that matter.
Being the leader of mankind is what the Emperor is for, or the Council of Terra. Being the best generals is what Primarchs are for. Guilliman achieves this better than any other. Having twenty guys plus the Emperor who want to lead is not a good thing.
>>43461679 >Being the leader of mankind is what the Emperor is for, or the Council of Terra. Sure, but it doesn't hurt to have a person that people don't just know and respect enough to obey, but actually love and cherish. I think Sanguinius could inspire far better than Guilliman.
And while it doesn't seal it, Guilliman himself wanted Sanguinius to be Emperor 2.0 in case E 1.0 got BTFOd by the traitor fucking shits.
>>43461717 Really, 20 of any of them would be good, but I just hold to the notion that Sanguinius would be basedst. I think Horusx20 would be a disaster. A pressure cooker waiting to burst. Horus was the Emperor's ambition incarnate, and I sincerely doubt 20 versions of that would work out.
>>43461749 >Again, this is not a case for Guilliman being Emperor, the Emperor already does that job. >20 Guillimans would simply be far more efficient than any other combination of Primarchs. And again, I think Sanguinius would fill the role better as leader(s) of mankind - with or without the Emperor about.
All the loyal primarchs are loved and deified. Sanguinius, alive, would just inspire love on top of respect. You'll fight and die for Guilliman, because he's proven a hundred times over that his strats are solid. You'll gladly die for Sanguinius, because he's proven himself a hundred times over, and you just love him. Because he's Sanguinius, the hero we need, but not the one we deserve.
His zeal was the fire of a son who believed in his father's dream for the Imperium without reservation and without question. To Rogal Dorn there was no higher purpose to the existence of the Legiones Astartes than the unification of Mankind, and the illumination of the Imperium's ideals. This idealism drove Dorn and his Legion ever onwards, never compromising, never stinting in any aspect of duty. The stone in his soul was his ability to bear whatever his father needed of him, an unyielding nature,
>>43461782 >And again, I think Sanguinius would fill the role better as leader(s) of mankind
Primarchs are not leaders of mankind, they are the leaders of armies. Sangunius has no spectacular record of victories. 20 Sangunius would not be good. Not only would the Marine Legions be under performing, and all gene-defective, but the act for which Sangunius earns most praise could not come about.
>You'll fight and die for Guilliman, because he's proven a hundred times over that his strats are solid. You'll gladly die for Sanguinius, because he's proven himself a hundred times over, and you just love him. Because he's Sanguinius, the hero we need, but not the one we deserve.
Even if that's true, Guilliman's methods are proven superior to any "inspiration" provided by Sangunius.
>>43461644 The Great Crusade would then consist of 20 fleets fucking off in different directions, conquering everything they came across, and never really coming home. Maybe when the latest galactic threat shows up, but even then, maybe not, or they could just have killed it before anyone in the Imperium hear about it.
>>43461801 Not sure I agree. Dorn was too unbendingly loyal, and so were his sons. I recall that one space battle where the Fists had the Iron Warriors pretty much pinned, and then received a message through the warp that they should come immediately. Instead of finishing off a huge chunk of an enemy legion, they got absolutely shitrekt trying to pull out. It saved them a very short amount of time, and cost them a massive amount of force, as well as not going in for the kill on the Iron Warriors.
Maybe that doesn't directly reflect on Dorn himself, though all the SM sons had traits of their father, but at any rate, Dorn's pretty fucking boring. Loyal as fuck, but that's really about it.
>>43461850 >Primarchs are not leaders of mankind, they are the leaders of armies. When we're dealing with the imperium, this is pretty much semantics. Every man, woman, and child is a "soldier" in the army of the Emperor. Some wield wrenches instead of lasguns, but there's little difference.
>Not only would the Marine Legions be under performing, and all gene-defective, but the act for which Sangunius earns most praise could not come about. The BA are absolute top tier warriors - even in relation to the legions. Had Sanguinius not fallen, you can be real fuckin' sure he'd have got shit done - because he always did.
>Even if that's true, Guilliman's methods are proven superior to any "inspiration" provided by Sangunius. Proven? Not really.
>>43461945 We're probably underestimating exactly how insanely good 20xA&O would be. It'd pretty much be 40 primarchs all working together to win in the smartest ways with least casualties.
They're not the knights in shining armour, and they don't inspire jack shit, but their forte is working behind the scenes. If the Emperor was a live to give mankind courage, the Alpa Legion would most likely be the best to have 20 of.
>>43461992 >That sort of thinking is more in line, though still incorrect, with the 40k Imperium rather than 30k Imperium. I was talking about 40k, and I consider even civilians to be "soldiers" in the Imperium, people who work for the betterment and survival of it, hence the quotation marks.
>Sangunius for all his nobility is only noteworthy because he died heroically at the hands of Horus. Bullshit. If Guilliman had been the one to sacrifice himself, then that'd have been his greatest legacy, and it'd have been up to Sanguinius to save the Imperium post-heresy, which he'd be perfectly capable of.
>>43461966 >20 sons who fall to Chaos and keep it secret in order to scheme and plot like Saturday morning cartoon villians fix'd
>>43461938 >>43461945 >>43461998 Yeah, if you just have 20+20 A+O, the Imperium would be in pretty great shape. It'd be like Grey Knights in terms of no-one having any idea who the fuck they are. You've got the best of both worlds by combining the most Practical of Practical Marines along with maximum Everything According to Keikaku. I mean, fuck, with 20 A+O Tzeentch would honestly get out-gamed by the fuckers.
>>43462029 Wut. A+O work seamlessly with one another, and even went so far as creating an entire Chapter of sleeper agents working against Chaos from within. A Chapter that was already led by Twins that shared their power fluidly would have very little issue working with 20 more versions of themselves. They are secretive to the outside, but it is always implied that various members of the Alpha Legion are basically working on all sides of a massive plan. A+O are the best Primarch when it comes to working together because they always have been, as opposed to the spastic man-children of the other Legions.
>I consider even civilians to be "soldiers" in the Imperium
Well don't, because that's incorrect.
>people who work for the betterment and survival of it
Most people don't, not any more than you're a soldier of your country because you help the economy a little maybe.
>Bullshit. If Guilliman had been the one to sacrifice himself, then that'd have been his greatest legacy, and it'd have been up to Sanguinius to save the Imperium post-heresy, which he'd be perfectly capable of.
Would he though? But that's not even the point, the The Ultramarines and Guilliman preformed objectively better than the Blood Angels and Sangunius during the Great Crusade. The Ultramarines have since gone on to be objectively more successful than the Blood Angels in all the years since.
>>43462029 >I doubt it. They are too secretive to work together plainly. Pretty sure they'd see the clear advantages of working together desu >And the Ultramarines are the ones focus on low casualties. iirc Alpha Legion were pretty smart about it too. Didn't just willy nilly throw warriors away.
>>43462123 Yes and no. Alpha Legion don't tend to throw away Marines, but that's also because more often than not you're dealing with their HAIL HYDRA fanatics instead of actual marines. I think you did hit the nail on the head in terms of the reasoning, though. It wasn't that they were trying to prevent high casualty counts. They just always plan and work smartly, and that means a lot of surgical strikes, precise utilization of resources, and not drowning the enemy in bodies.
All things said, they're basically in-canon Reasonable Marines, with just a touch of keikaku.
>>43462109 >For what purpose? This is semantic jerk off drivel. Everyone in the imperium, 30k or 40k, were working for the betterment of the imperium. I believe Sanguiniusx20 would inspire them far better than Guilliman.
>Well don't, because that's incorrect. Semantic horseshit.
> because you help the economy a little maybe. i.e. they worked for the Imperium.
>The Ultramarines and Guilliman preformed objectively better than the Blood Angels and Sangunius during the Great Crusade. The Ultramarines have since gone on to be objectively more successful than the Blood Angels in all the years since. Even if we ignore the fact that this is probably mainly due to the fact that the smurfs are the GW babbies, conquered worlds is not the only facet of what constitutes a good primarch. I believe that Sanguiniusx20 would be better suited for handling the threats that the Imperium comes to face. Don't underestimate adoration in the Emperor's immediate chosen when Chaos comes knocking. If you willingly and lovingly follow Sanguinius, you might be less likely to fall. If you begrudgingly follow Guilliman because he's effective, you might be more inclined to fall.
I'll readily admit that's rather speculative, but I still believe it'd play a factor.
>>43462194 >This is semantic jerk off drivel. Everyone in the imperium, 30k or 40k, were working for the betterment of the imperium.
Not true. Most were just getting on with their lives. What we must focus on here are the armed forces of the Imperium.
In what sense? You're definition of soldier is the only horseshit here.
>i.e. they worked for the Imperium.
But not as soldiers. I pay taxes, I am not a Royal Marine. My old Mum works in the public sector, she is not a soldier.
>Even if we ignore the fact that this is probably mainly due to the fact that the smurfs are the GW babbies
They're all GW babbies. Ultramarines though don't even have their own codex unlike some other chapters.
>conquered worlds is not the only facet of what constitutes a good primarch.
True, which why Guilliman is the clear number one rather than neck and neck with the Lion or Horus. Guilliman brought industry and trade with him, he left worlds better than before and valuable to the Imperium. Ultramar is a paradise. Baal is a shit hole.
>Don't underestimate adoration in the Emperor's immediate chosen when Chaos comes knocking.
Knocking with what? Guilliman proved strong enough to resist Chaos.
>If you willingly and lovingly follow Sanguinius, you might be less likely to fall. If you begrudgingly follow Guilliman because he's effective, you might be more inclined to fall.
Instead consider what happens when the 20 Blood Angel legions start to suffer genetic fuck up and begin tearing people apart to drink their blood. What happens to everyone who totally loves the Sanguniuses then? I'd rather have the dependable Ultramarines
Where did the "The Lion is a autist traitor." come from?
The books outright state that he's loyal, and his secrecy and issues with people make more sense as being a result of his first decade being raised by a bunch of secretive Aliens in the wilds of a Chaos tainted death world. The books he is in paint him as a very human figure, less so than Sanguinius, but better than more than half of the other primarchs.
>all these closet homos fapping online to sanguinius
He was a filthy mutant kept in check by his feelings of inadequacy and the expectations of a mutant toeing the line. He routinely lied about the sorry state of his Legion to the Emperor's face. If his mutation was not aesthetically pleasing, all you cunts would be thrashing him right now.
>>43462169 It's not as if the Imperium is ever going to admit that a Traitor Legion was the best one, anon. Same reason they quietly ignore the Lion's record. He was way out in front on tactical genius, but he's got a bad rep.
>>43462968 In Gav Thorpe's books, the Fallen Angel Astelan once claimed that the Lion was the Traitor and Luther was loyal. Due to the inherent trustworthiness of a Chaos Space Marine with a grudge against the guy he's defaming in a situation where his only hope of survival is shaking the faith of the guy he's speaking to, it may be known by all that the Lion is a traitor and the mountain of evidence to the contrary is just Inner Circle propaganda.
As for the autism, the Lion has extreme attention to detail and seemingly no grasp of how anyone around him feels or thinks. He's symptomatic, at least.
>For a supposedly great leader the guy was shit with people. All the strategic brilliance in the world doesn't mean shit if you can can't recognize and account for the human factor.
I actually work for a guy like that now in the military. Guy collects doctorates like I collect overpriced plastic models. Does complex logistics, math, and physics in his head and then turns around and makes operational decisions that leave anyone who actually works with people cringing.
No shit, his last big operational decision would have been great in a vacuum, but was destined to fall apart in the real world. Room full of people nodding as he explained his guidance. My staff trying to save me from myself as I throw the red flag. I could literally see the veins bulging in his temple as he deigned to hear me out. Me, the plebeian with the lowly bachelor's degree.
We are executing anyway and he'll be right. We CAN do it exactly like he planned it and yes, it will be more efficient and yes, our numbers are going to look great. He's just going to be shooting his best workhorse in the process and later when we need that horse for something that matters, it won't be there.
Just to note that in the latest HH book Wolf King, Alpharius sacrifices most of his smaller warships (Marines inside and all) just to bait the Space Wolves into thinking they're winning before springing a trap
>>43464768 Canon Magnus got fucked the moment the Emperor gave him a dying legion and failed to tell him about Chaos.
With 20 of him, who knows what would happen. Maybe they find a solution to the Fleshchange other than a deal with Tzeentch. Maybe they just beat Tzeentch's face in until he stops fucking with the Thousand Sons.
Or they fall to Chaos all the same and turbo-fuck the Imperium.
I don't understand how the guy who got all his limbs blown off in the war and still managed to become an inspirational athlete and charity event guy didn't win over Faglord Jenner. Was it because he didn't have a gold medal? I think it was the gold medal.
>>43462909 This His defining character trait that most people miss is that he's an Idealist. He'd rather die than slack on his principles and you can pretty much guarantee if there were 20 of him that the Imperium would be both well fortified and constantly advancing forward.
>20 alpharius >20 omegons >primarchs & spess muhreens are just a mere myth >all the crazy shit they do is credited directly to the emperor, making him look even more glorious >everyone is reasonable marines >so much keikaku that tzeentch has a fucking aneurysm
>>43461042 The Lion is the most loyal Primarch. The only thing he wants in the universe is to stand by his father through thick and fin- and directly told the Chaos Gods to go fuck himself when they offered him anything. The Lion is incorruptible. Now if only he just shot Luther after his initial betrayal....
FREE THE BEAST!!! >20 exact copies >No Horus to point them back at the Emperor >Galaxy conquered in record time >Immeasurable casualties on every side >Pyrrhic Victory? Angrons don't care, keep shoving your dicks into enemy orifices >At the end gather all Angrons and shoot them into a star to prevent them from fucking up everybody's new shit.
>all this sanguinus wank The red thirst alone makes him a non contender. Compared to his brothers he didn't do anything special for the imperium.
The best Primarchs for the job would have been the stable ones who got shit done like Guilliman, Dorn, khan or Vulkan. While everyone else was running around being special snowflakes these guys were willing to forgo the inherent vanity and self centeredness that comes with being a 12 foot demigod and instead played barebones rank and file which is exactly what the emperor needed and the imperium by extension.
>>43475815 He's hardly underrated, there just isn't much to dramatise or romanticise about the man. That is what makes him my favourite Primarch.
He's like a bottle of water in a cocktail bar. He didn't get caught up trying to play the main character in his universe, he knew his duty and poured every ounce of his being into it. He was just a simple man getting shit done. He's the best son the emperor could have wished for.
20x ferrus manus would be interesting. 20x Fulgrim without the whole slaanesh thing. I heard that Fulgrim was totally onboard with remembrancers and that made me really happy. I wish he didn't turn to chaos.
>20 Russ-some would fall before long, the emprah would send some to kill the others, just a clusterfuck in general. Failure, but Emps is still in charge, so the imperium is fine >20 Khans-The imperium would just find their enemies pacified or destroyed by 20 unknown fleets of mongolians throughout the galaxy. Pretty good results, 20 loyal primarchs who kick ass but stay away from the main imperium. >20 Lorgar-Emps beats the shit out of them, unless the combined psychic might of 20 lorgars can combat Emps, then emps still wins but 20 daemon primarchs +20 legions of Word Bearers ruins the imperiums shit if emps doesnt kill them all. >20 Sanguinius-Everyone loves him, no black rage since 20 Sangy's fucks anythings shit up sideways. Excellent result >20 Dorns-Insular but unnasailable tech levels. Nids get chumped, imperium cannot lose >20 Perts-Honestly, pretty good. Without his brothers overshadowing him he'll probably be Dorn 2.0 >20 Alpharius-What are these space marines you speak of, citizen? surely they are but a myth >20 Magnus-The imperium is either completely and utterly fucked forever, or its a golden age of psykery to leave the old ones in the dust. >20 Corax-i dont even know, pretty good i guess?
>>43476482 >All fired into the sun. >Find Khorne in the warp. >Are offended at the idea he likes to kill more than 20 Angrons. >Fight and eat Khorne and the survivors fight to decide who is the next chaos god.
>>43476803 >20 Vulkan-the galaxy is a giant workshop, everyone gets on swimmingly, although theres probably trillions of half-black semi-astartes running around. >20 Horus-Eventually one of them gets noticed by Chaos, his ambition was too big. Brings his brothers into line behind him or kills them. Probably chaos triumphant, or maybe 40k again, just without guilliman and space marines. >20 Mortarion-God knows, possibly most of them fall to chaos anyway from being such an unhygeinic fuck, Nurgle becomes most powerful chaos god >20 Fulgrim-all of them fall anyway, slaanesh still khornes bitch. >20 Iron Hands of the Iron Hands-who knows? possibly a few falls but mostly loyal >20 Konrads-CRAWWWWWLING IN MY SKIIIIIIN >20 lion-maximum tactical jeenyus, 50% fall to chaos, 50% loyal. >20 ancestor smurf-Imperium fractions into pieces, not loyal to Emps but not Chaos either. >20 Angron-RIP AND TEAR. Assuming all have nails, and that emps did the same trick to all of them in their deathmatch, all fall. Khorne and co are chaos triumphant
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