Because they thought it was a good idea to release a console the same day it was announced without notifying retailers and developers. They pretty much gave Sony the lead with the PS1 which help them gain momentum into PS2 era. .
Infighting with the divisions. Financial troubles Shoddy management Fucking over their userbase with two platforms(one which died in less than a year) Gradual recurrence of 1-3 Sony boasting the PS2's non-gaming features
Short answer, SEGA. By the time they got it right the damage was beyond repair.
>>249412161 >Confirmed for not having actually owned a PS2 at launch
Armored Core 2 DOA2: Hardcore Dynasty Warriors 2 ESPN International Track & Field ESPN Winter X Games Snowboarding Eternal Ring Evergrace FantaVision Gungriffon Blaze Madden NFL 2001 Midnight Club: Street Racing NHL 2001 Orphen: Scion of Sorcery Q-Ball: Billiards Master Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 Ridge Racer V Silent Scope Smuggler's Run Street Fighter EX3 Summoner Swing Away Golf Tekken Tag Tournament TimeSplitters Unreal Tournament Wild Wild Racing X-Squad
It was a completely lackluster launch compared to the Dreamcast's. Especially when some PS2 games actually came shipped as blue label CDs, instead of DVDs and when Dreamcast ports of certain games were actually better (like Unreal Tournament having online play for Dreamcast, as well as mouse and keyboard support, when PS2 didn't).
It took the PS2 a little over a year before it started to get some really good games. Dreamcast pumped out several within the limited lifespan it had from the beginning.
>>249415789 Blame Sammy. SEGA was on a roll when they went third party.
Sonic Advance Otogi Panzer Dragoon Orta Gun Valkyrie Shinobi Virtua Fighter 4 Crazy Taxi 3 Jet Set Radio Future Space Channel 5 Part 2 Super Monkey Ball Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg Astro Boy: Omega Factor F-Zero GX Rez Beach Spikers
Then came Sammy in 2004, who then bought up SEGA and shut down all of their studios formed during the Dreamcast days to bring them back into the company, causing many devs to quit.
>>249416191 It's funny. Every time a new version of a PS comes out, droves of people jump on it, regardless of the lack of any games.
People bought a PS2 because it was a cheap DVD player that played PS games on top of being able to play PS2 games. Same deal with PS3; doubled as a cheap Blu-ray player that could play PS, PS2 and PS3 games.
>>249410180 I actually read a good book about this. For the longest time, everyone assumed it was the ps2 who killed it, but sega was actually preparing for almost a year for its launch and was moving a ton of dreamcasts.
What finally pushed them out was the xbox. They knew from the old NES days that the market couldnt handle a ton of systems. With sony and nintendo, they still had a ok shot. They where still moving a ton of units, a lot of games where coming out and most of their first party games where huge hits.
But they knew they where going to be in a close last. They knew that PS2 would outsell both them and Nintendo and that Nintendo would sell because of its diehard fans, but they where doing ok with that to ride it out and grow a huge install base. But with microsoft, they wouldnt have a chance. They could ride out 2 other systems, but a 3rd cutting into its numbers would be to much.
the xbox killed it, and not even because it tried, but merely because it existed.
>>249418148 Worth noting also how different things were between regions.
For the west, it was (in terms of sales) PS2 > Xbox > GameCube > Dreamcast. Whereas in Japan, it was PS2 > GameCube > Dreamcast > Xbox. It was simply more of a fact that not only was SEGA contending against Sony's new platform, but Nintendo had a new platform on the way and MS was jumping in.
The main thing was that SEGA simply nearly ran out of money to continue supporting the platform. Isao Okawa was struggling to decide on either going third party or declare bankruptcy. Especially harder when they proposed to collaborate with MS to make the Xbox backwards compatible with Dreamcast games, but never got a response from them.
Man, Sega's history is pretty tragic. They had the best talent in the industry and fucked it all up with stupid bullshit. And when they started coming to their senses? They get bought up and everything they were working towards gets destroyed. Now all the talent left them and they're nothing more than a husk with no direction and no future.
Nope. The American gaming market was biding its time to take back the dominant influence in gaming since the late 80s.
Everyone in the western gaming market wanted the NES to fail back then. and they thought it would. Then, in the 90s, The west were trying to make the first disc based console, the 3DO. It didn't gain traction, and Sony came in and basically took its basic concept and made PlayStation. The west was trumped, again.
There are still people are currently in charge that were sore about that and instantly jump at the idea of a western console like Xbox, when it was first revealed.
>>249421397 Replace that with a PS4. They started selling the Xbone without the NSAcam and actually showed video games at E3 this year. They're willing to listen which can go a long way. Meanwhile Sony is starting to get into the online paywall shit and are about to start shoving rentals for STREAMING games down peoples throat.
>>249421351 >>249421383 You guys are forgetting the NEC had a CD attachment for the PC-Engine/TurboGrafx-16, which was really popular in Japan.
Nintendo AND SEGA of Japan decided to go the CD route to compete against them. But considering the TG-16 wasn't big outside of Japan, SEGA of America had to refine their sights on competing against the SNES with the SEGA CD.
>>249419932 It was piss easy to pirate games on the DC but you have to remember that this is 1999 internet we're talking here. DLing ~700MB worth of data today is nothing but back then that shit was a chore. Not to mention, by the it became an issue, Sega had already patched it out.
All of that wasted talent All of that horrible management between SOJ/SOA All of that wasted potienal in marketshare that Sega dominated in Europe until Sony took it over. >>249416739 >Then came Sammy in 2004, who then bought up SEGA and shut down all of their studios formed during the Dreamcast days to bring them back into the company, causing many devs to quit.
Oh god...that is exactly what I fear is going to happen to Nintendo goes third party. It's guarantee that some bigger company will absorb their ips, and change management around.
>>249416191 People got too burned by the Wii's "backstep" in power, when it was because the 360/PS3 (and the XBO/PS4) were/are going too fast, thus the inconsistent framerates, resolutions, and failure rates
>>249421974 >Not to mention, by the it became an issue, Sega had already patched it out. Not necessarily. Dreamcast models that removed the ability to play CD-Rs came about after October 2000, just three months until the announcement of SEGA dropping support. All they could do before then was start legal battles with people setting up mod chips and people uploading games.
>>249422212 Nintendo will be fine. They don't have in-house fights with their own staff like SEGA did and they're not in any danger of running low on cash. If anyone's going the route of SEGA, it's Capcom.
Capcom is severely low on cash, their Japanese side calls all of the shots and won't let the American side do anything and their shareholders are pissed to the point of being fine with someone buying out the company.
Worst Nintendo's shareholders want are for them to go mobile.
Other problems were the fact that Dreamcast was an interim console; by coming out early, the Gamecube/PS2/Xbox outclassed it graphically.
Also, Dreamcast games in general felt like arcade games during the time when arcades were dying and the people who were buying consoles wanted casual, story focused games. Another thing the PS2 provided!
No DVD. Limited capacity medium with shit transfer rate, forcing a reliance on quirky games, and/or arcade ports. No final fantasy. Internet wasn't even a selling point at the time. America's biggest chains didn't want to stock it after SEGA fucked up the 32X and saturn.
>>249416191 Honestly, I think it is the controller. It confuses the shit out of baseline consumers as in bros, soccer moms, office working water cooler types. They see it and think it is probably a portable system and not the replacement for the WII. Most "normies" I know still think Nintendo hasn't released a replacement for the WII yet. People look at the box and just think it is either an enhanced version of the WII or a portable system.
I think if it wasn't for the confusion over the product, it would probably be the best selling system and not because of the fact that it has more games, but merely because it is the cheapest out of the three, which is what really matters most.
>>249423947 >lack of third party support in the west. Not at all my friend! In fact, it had lots of Western support from Western devs (initially, anyways). Mainly from PC devs because porting between the PC and DC was super easy to do. Quake III, UT '99, MDK2, Tomb Raider are a few good examples.
>>249424061 Now that I think about it, does AM2 even exist anymore? I haven't heard shit from them since After Burner: Climax. Also, Smilebit isn't dead. They got repurposed to pump out those Mario and Sonic games for all of eternity. Of course, they don't go by 'Smilebit' anymore but rather some generic department name.. So really, all Sega has is Sanic Team, Relic and Creative Assembly and their internal studios?
>>249424351 >and the people who were buying consoles wanted casual, story focused games. Another thing the PS2 provided! PS2 didn't provide any of that at launch. Most people who bought one at launch were either overexcited to see what the PS2 could do and people who wanted a cheap DVD player.
Remember that the PS2 was mostly sold on lies that it could produce "Toy Story visuals." See >>249415092 for what PS2 had to offer at launch. There wasn't much even after the first year.
Meanwhile, Dreamcast had all of these by the end of 2000:
-ChuChu Rocket -Ecco the Dolphin: Defender of the Future -Fur Fighters -Grandia II -Jet Set Radio -Resident Evil Code: VERONICA -Seaman -Shenmue -Skies of Arcadia -Sonic Adventure -Space Channel 5 -Samba de Amigo -Super Magnetic Neo
Just to name a few. And that's not including any multiplats. Dreamcast had a nice sized amount of games of different varieties.
>>249425276 And Atlus. Technically, Smilebit is dead. They shut down the group, bringing them back into the company as an internal dev. Now all they do are the Mario & Sonic games, as you said, mostly because that's what's demanded of them.
AM2? Sadly, the most recent they did was Hatsune Miku and Future Stars Project mirai. Especially bad when Yu Suzuki has been given the Gunpei Yokoi post Virtual Boy treatment by SEGA.
>>249415092 I saw a copy of DOA2: Hardcore at my local Greywhale, I didn't know what it was until now. game was 45.00 dollars, I instead bought True Crime on OGX, SvR 2006 and Onimush 3 for 9.30 together. I should pick it up once I get paid.
I don't think it was marketed well. The only commercials I ever saw for it was Ready 2 Rumble and Sanic Adventures. I also knew MGS2, GTA3 and FFX was around the corner and I was much more familiar with those titles.
>>249427623 Honestly I think bad marketing and branding on Nintendo and Microsoft's part has basically given Sony a slam dunk win for this gen of consoles. Even without the bad release press, naming your console "one" after having two previous consoles is just asking for trouble with some of the knuckledragging consumers or people who have to buy games but don't really understand them like parents during the holiday season.
>>249410180 god this system was fucking so perfect it just had love built into it, that feel you get just when you turn it on and see the logo, that fucking sound man. Why must good things always fail? Sega has a shit ton of money if they just tired they could come back and surprise everyone at the next e3 with a new system. call it the wishcast.
Sega could save video gaming if they really wanted, they still have all their dead ips and a truck load of money from their casinos, they could make 15 billion sonic games and a new console, fail and still have millions. I just want them too try one last time... We new more blood in the video game industry its getting really boring. what happened to the good old days when consoles and ideas and games where all over the place? if anyone could do it sega could. I mean if you think about it they dont even have a e3 stream while komani does, just how far has sega fallin? actually what were sega e3s like?
Or maybe people just want to play cod, fifa, assassins creed, battlefield and watch dogs on the least invasive console? I mean, these are kind of the most popular series on the market right now. These games sell tens of millions of units with each iteration. Don't be surprised when they move consoles too just because most anons here prefer pc. It really isn't that hard to understand how the average console gamer thinks.
>>249429193 Yep. Capcom 5 fell through because Capcom got greedy. Mikami, who spearheaded the whole project, wanted to keep the shit on the GC (because he REALLY disliked the PS2; it was a bitch to develop for) but Capcom went full Jew mode and ported everything to the PS2 in desperate hopes of getting more sales. It's also worth noting that Mikami had felt terrible afterwards as he had been going around proclaiming that the Capcom 5 would stay exclusive to GC only for Capcom to pull the rug under everyone's feet. Of course, Mikami ended up leaving afterwards.
>>249429481 god dam it, if only all the Japanese games got localized maybe the Saturn wouldn't have failed and then maybe the dreamcast and sega would still be alive. do you guys think sega will ever make a comeback? maybe they are just waiting for the perfect moment to get a new console in once nintendo and sony fail? like they are saving all their money and just building it up to completely destroy them?
>>249428534 This one's a doozy. Mainly because SEGA of Japan started it and SEGA of America finished it. This is basically what happened...
-Sony announced they're pushing the PlayStation as their own, stand-alone console that could do 3D and 2D
-SEGA decides that the 2D developed Saturn has to compete, so they force it do 3D in a manner so complicated, barely anyone can bring out the Saturn's full potential later on
-SEGA releases the 32X as a means of keeping people content with their Genesis (until the Saturn rolls in). It's FAR more expensive ($150) than the console itself ($99) and no one knows if they should develop for it. SEGA of Japan kept details about its specs on the down-low, like they did with the SEGA CD. Surprise surprise, 32X is failing.
-Sony announces PS is coming soon at $299. SEGA of Japan shits bricks and forces SEGA of America to push the system out earlier. Devs are caught off guard, along with consumers and furious retailers who were not given access to it. The system was also launched at $399.
-SoJ starts removing power from SoA. SoA President Tom Kalinske is nothing but a figure head at this point and grows frustrated. Genesis was still doing well, Saturn was not. SoJ's decision? Kill off all SEGA platforms available on the market, save for Saturn. Tom Kalinske leaves SEGA.
-Meanwhile, at SCEA, Bernie Stolar is fired for butting heads with publishers/devs and higher ups in Japan. He had a horrible policy that prevented many games from leaving Japan. Infamously prevented Working Designs from releasing an RPG in the west until he left and SCEA noticed Final Fantasy VII's success.
-SoJ notices Sony's bigshot is no longer with them...and hires him. Stolar implements the very same policies onto the Saturn, pissing off Working Designs, who was going to release more games for the Saturn.
-Finally...the ads. Dear god, SEGA of America had horrible, horrible TV ads compared to SEGA of Japan.
>>249430048 Berine Stolar is to the Sega Saturn, just like SCEA is to the Vita.
Berne Stolar blocked certain Sega games from going to america because cultural differences. Bernie Stolar is the exact dude that Sony fired from their Playstation division for a dickish to japanese localization.
>>249430880 So the dreamcast e3 was at least good? its really sad that they only got two e3s.. >>249430563 holy shit what were they thinking. the one thing i hate the most is that Bernie guy, it was a fucking moron that got rid of the reason why you should even buy a system, fucking games. why the fuck did they let that guy in control of the system when his ideas were so shit?
>>249430563 >Meanwhile, at SCEA, Bernie Stolar is fired for butting heads with publishers/devs and higher ups in Japan. He had a horrible policy that prevented many games from leaving Japan. Infamously prevented Working Designs from releasing an RPG in the west until he left and SCEA noticed Final Fantasy VII's success.
This part always had me thinking is what would've happened if Sony kept Stolar. FF7 (and a slew of PlayStation hits like maybe Armored Core) would've never have taken off and the PlayStation would be a much different system. Probably wouldn't even exist. It's like the plot to C&C: Red Alert.
>>249430507 First E3 was when they announced the Saturn for the American market and released it that same day. It seems like a good idea now because everyone uses the internet. People back then didn't know it was in stores till it hit gaming magazines a month later. They also didn't bother to notify a lot of retailers. Toys R Us knew but their competitor KB toys didn't which resulted in them never stocking the thing because they were so upset. It also resulted in Sony undercutting them.
>>249431275 They blew everyone the fuck away with their E3 presentations. And despite Bernie's shortcomings during the Saturn and the amount of times I will damn him for it, I cannot fault him for manning up and learning from his mistakes.
He saw the Dreamcast was poorly handled in Japan and felt that if the company was to survive, he had to make sure it did phenomenally here. In Japan, Dreamcast launched with Godzilla Generations, July, Pen Pen TriIcelon and Virtua Fighter 3tb.
Not only were the launch titles horrible, but the system suffered from shortages due to chip manufacturing issues. Top it off with the system costing around $255 (in yen) and it was no wonder no one wanted it.
So he tackled a few things: price, advertising, launch games and securing devs. He fought with SoJ to get the price to $200, he brought on a full-assault of ads to bring awareness of the console and bought Visual Concepts to make their sports games.
The launch in North America resulted in getting us:
AeroWings AirForce Delta Blue Stinger CART Flag to Flag Expendable The House of the Dead 2 Hydro Thunder Monaco Grand Prix Mortal Kombat Gold NFL 2K NFL Blitz 2000 Pen Pen TriIcelon Power Stone Ready 2 Rumble Boxing Sonic Adventure Soul Calibur TNN Motorsports Hardcore Heat Tokyo Xtreme Racer TrickStyle
And to ensure there was no drought, we got even more games within the year and next, including Crazy Taxi, Marvel vs Capcom and Power Stone.
And his stubbornness got him fired from SEGA. Especially since SoJ wanted to delay the Dreamcast, slap a DVD drive and have it cost more.
>>249431842 Capcom wasn't too happy when they weren't allowed initially to put their 2D Mega Man games on the PS. They countered with putting MM7 and X3 on the Saturn. Sony relented.
>>249431412 Probably cause it did have a shit ton of games. 1997 - 2001 were some of the best years for games.
>>249429725 I think people want to play those games and in that sense it is a minor selling point in the PS4's favor, but a console being invasive isn't that much of a factor for most consumers though. It is for people concerned with internet age politics and smart consuming, but we're a minority of a minority.
I think price and bad marketing on the other two companies part is the biggest factor in Sony currently winning. If most gamers could play those games on a toilet with a screen that cost two dollars and do so competitively over the internet they would buy that. The idea that tech specs, a consoles game library size or brand loyalty (people believing Sony has loyal customers based on their reputation lel) is what determines a console winning a generation, is mostly a series of fantasies on the part of /v/ and similarly elitist minded gaming communities.
>>249430563 >>249431842 God, Yamauchi fucked himself over with square. I wonder what the industry would be if he didnt. Would RPG's still be dead outside of japan? Would sega even care about RPG's? Would sony have taken off nearly as much as they did?
>>249434452 >Would sega even care about RPG's? Technically, they did. They had Phantasy Star I - IV, Shining Force I, II and CD, Shining in the Darkness, LandStalker, Beyond Oasis and Light Crusader for the Genesis (Master System for Phantasy Star I). They also had Lunar, Ys and ShadowRun from the 3rd parties.
Either way, Square wasn't getting the results they wanted via cartridges for the N64. The only real damage Yamauichi did was cut off all ties and never work with them for as long as he was there.
>>249435398 No, there was tons more to it. Your forgetting the fact that they where willing to cut the CG's, work with the lower poly and even use midi based music to fit it on 3-5 cartridges.They asked for a discount per cartridge (it costs around 13 per unit) so they could sell the game at normal price and still make a profit (if nintendo didnt cut the costs, they would have to charge about $150).
Despite square being one of like 3 devs to stay with nintendo exclusivly when everyone else jumped ship and went multi with the genesis, Yamauichi told them they wernt special, they get no discount and that RPG's where a dying japanese only fad that wouldnt make money outside of japan. He didnt care if they stayed with nintendo.
>>249436536 Ah, right. I actually forgot about that bit. Yeah, Yamauchi leaving was a blessing.
>>249436525 Compared to this gen? Sure. But that's honestly not saying much, seeing as how Wii's launch had a Zelda game, Wii Sports and Rabbids. Then came the massive drought as Nintendo tried making more Wiis while letting 3rd parties go ape shit crazy...which resulted in the massive glut of shovelware releases, including games SCEA *refused* to allow be released on the PS2 in NA (but SCEE openly welcomed).
>>249436542 Also helped that Soul Calibur on Dreamcast was completely redone to look 100x better than the original arcade version. And Sonic Adventure's visuals aged a little better than Mario 64's...save for the ridiculous mouth "flaps."
>>249436536 >work with the lower poly and even use midi based music
This also happens on the Playstation, by the way. The reason FF games were on many CDs was because of movies. Cut that and not even rendered backgrounds can get spacey if you put some kickass compression algorithm.
>>249437347 I think having Elebits, Excite Truck, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Trauma Center: Second Opinion ,WarioWare: Smooth Moves Wii Sports, Rayman Raving Rabbids and Call of Duty 3 at launch day constitutes as a good launch. I guess you could also throw in Red Steel for token third party game had promise but turn out to be shit and was heavily improve in the sequel.
>>249437974 Pretty much this. Also explains why many early PS RPGs were mostly 2D, save for either CG spell effects (or in Wild Arms' case, switching to 3D in battle) or backgrounds being pre-rendered CG.
>>249438021 Damn, how did I forget Excite Truck and Elebits? Yeah, those were good launch titles.
>>249438385 >Don't they know if they wanna be relevant again, they gotta release Virtua Fighter 6 They won't even release Phantasy Star Online 2 or anymore Yakuza games. But then again, that's just their western side being fucked over by SEGA of Japan again, who's basically Sammy's puppet.
At least Japan got Phantasy Star 2 and some new Yakuza titles, along with having Phantasy Star Nova on the way. Meanwhile, SEGA's "slate of exciting games at E3" (their exact description, btw) were Sonic Boom, Alien and Project DIVA f 2nd.
>>249438418 >>249438418 I cheated, Elebits was a japanese launch title. But it came out on NA less than a month after the Wii launched. The Wii also got Metroid Prime 3 and Super Mario Galaxy in it's first year. They were actually moderately ready for the system.
>>249438385 They are keeping near everything in japan, losing more of the staff (they already lost major names years ago), causing Isao Okawa to spin in his grave so fast you can use him as a form of energy and replace the Fukushima nuclear plant, focusing on pachinko because that's where the Sammy side of the company makes all the money, putting out half assed localizations of Miku games, and whoring out the blue rodent.
It's the bit-wars all over again, except instead of there being a choice of 58585725625 colors with the yamacha-kun-g7825-9-i9 sound processor and mode 7, or 8979788876763 colors with industrial sound and 3d effects, it's now
>this machine has incredibly improved graphics. >this machine costs more and has shittier graphics.
Your average consumer isn't stupid enough to buy the weaker system when it's this obvious.
They wanted to compete with temugachi didn't they? I remember Sonic Adventure allowed you to put Chow's in the memory card and raise them. The battery life was shit though and it was probably one of dreamcasts blunders. Cool idea with poor execution.
>>249438832 Still counts. I remember getting Elebits for Christmas a month after getting my Wii, so it's still within the launch window.
>>249441491 >Today's Sega would never make the likes of Space Harrier, Virtua Fighter, ToeJam and Earl, Rez, JSR, etc. Funny you should mention that. A French developer wanted to make a JSR game for the Wii and pitched the idea at SEGA with some character concept designs. They were flat out declined.
As for ToeJam & Earl, it took SEGA forever to figure out who exactly owned the rights to the series - them or the actual creators.
>>249438385 the psp phantasy star games sell millions in japan, some 40k copies sell here in the USA.
Valkyria Chronicles could have been a great IP for sega here in the states, but #2 was too dating sim for the west and didn't sell enough.
>I'm played the 3rd game and it's pretty good.
"bought Visual Concepts to make their sports games." If I remember right VC had been hired by EA to create madden 95 or 96 for the new PS1, VC said the code was so old and shit that they had to start over but had just a limited amount of weeks to get an alpha ready they tried to add different body sizes, cause madden didn't show a difference at the time, and other new things to improve it, but it took a couple mins to load a game, like 15sec to load the menu in game....EA let them go...
they went on to blow EA the fuck out with NFL 2k games, but we know how shitty EA handled that.
>>249442564 >I was disgusted by how little the gaming press reacted to his departure from Sega. If it had been Miyamoto or Kojima they would have gone apeshit. It was most likely because it was something we guessed had happened already. Suzuki was tossed to the side by SEGA like Nintendo did to Gunpei Yokoi after the Virtual Boy flopped (with Suzuki, it was with Shenmue). And in both cases, the company heads were more at fault for that than the creators.
>>249410180 Guys I just had a crazy hypothetical thought.
What if Sega got exclusive rights to Halo somehow and Microsoft pretty much was DOA with the Xbox?
I mean yeah Halo would have been downgraded a ton but could it have saved Dreamcast? Because as we all know Halo saved Microsoft's ass big time. Single handed in fact. Shit even to this day it might save them again.
>>249430563 > Our skills were in marketing, sales and distribution, theirs were in product design and development. This was not always understood. This inevitably led to some disagreement and confusion. I suspect that we had similar issues to the ones that Tom Kalinske had to deal with at SOA. - Nick Alexander
Sega of Japan were telling the guys who created the cyber razor cut and to be this good takes Ages, how to market!
>>249442885 This was true. Also worth noting, Bernie Stolar was approached by EA and told they'd develop for the Dreamcast only if they can be the only ones making sports games. Stolar had to decline since they put a ton of money into Visual Concepts. He proposed they at least let them make their sports games besides EA's.
EA declined and said they'd only make games if SEGA let them have the monopoly on it. Then later EA goes on to blame SEGA, saying they'll wait and see if the system turns out to be any good.
>>249442786 As was this Official Dreamcast Magazine cover.
>>249444546 That's mostly because, at the time, SEGA had next to no market share in North America. Tom Kalinske had to constantly fight with SoJ to be able to do what was needed. He felt in order for Genesis to survive, it needed a new tagline ("Genesis Does What Nintendon't" was internally seen as "What? Not make money?"), a new price and a better pack-in game.
He realized Genesis was too expensive and Altered Beast, while fun, wouldn't hold people's interests for too long since it was an arcade port and those could be cleared in a short time with infinite amounts of tries.
SoJ's heads were PISSED the moment he suggested packing in Sonic with the system and at a lower price, since Sonic had not been even finished in development yet. They eventually let him and the joke was on them. Sonic and Genesis sold like crazy in NA, while the Mega Drive and Sonic sold relatively okay in Japan.
>>249445024 Well, look at it like this. Virtua Fighter is a safe game to develop for SEGA. Whereas Shenmue and OutRun weren't. Why? Money.
Shenmue's development (and advertisement) costs were astronomical at the time and OutRun used the Ferrari license, which cost a pretty penny. As you said, Sammy didn't want someone who took risks. Especially if it involved spending a lot of money.
>>249445332 Actually, at first you did. This was before people realized games could not only be compressed in a certain way to work on (almost) any system, but also region locks could be ultimately removed. Mod chips were rampant in the early Dreamcast days.
SEGA straight up didn't have the money to continue supporting a moderately successful console.
Think about it: in the same amount of time that SEGA killed off the Dreamcast, the Wii U had sold even fewer units. The difference is that Nintendo had DS/Wii/Historical Profits to back up their flailing console, but the last huge success SEGA had was the Genesis. Nobody bought the CD, 32x, or Saturn, so they had pretty much nothing but failures going into it.
>>249445645 >Think about it: in the same amount of time that SEGA killed off the Dreamcast, the Wii U had sold even fewer units. Just want to clarify that the claim that the Dreamcast completely outsold the Wii U was actually bogus.
If anything, they were closer to even. Dreamcast sold 6.5 million units worldwide from 1998 to 2001, whereas Wii U sold 5.86 million units worldwide between 2012 to December 31, 2013.
Right now, Wii U's looking at having sold 6.17 million units worldwide.
Most interesting thread I have seen on /v/ in at least a week. >>249445645 Never even knew about the CD or 32X back then when I was young. That is how stupidly fast they kept releasing consoles. Also that game gear man......looking back on it the handheld wasn't that good. Gameboy was obviously far superior. I have had/played Genesis, Saturn and Dreamcast.
>>249445824 > Fall/Winter 2001 SEGA was already out of the game long before that. They dropped out on January that year.
>>249445878 Doubtful. Remember that Shenmue II did get an Xbox port, which pissed off TONS of Dreamcast owners (myself included) who were waiting for its North American release. Not only was it going to a console that not many people had faith in at the time (remember that western developed consoles were seen as a joke by that point), but we had to wait even longer to get the game.
By that point, plenty of EBs and Babages were selling import PAL copies of Shenmue II on Dreamcast. The Xbox port quickly went to the bargain bin.
God this makes me feel sad. I never paid nearly as much attention to gaming news back then. I simply bought and played games. I guess marketing may have influenced me but it was just so damn easy for a game to at least be decent back then. These days I can't even be bothered to even look at the shit released.
It's almost like I should have done the opposite. Get hyped and constantly read news back then. Then again these games were probably so much better for me because I went into all of them blind.
Damn it /v/. Gaming is shit now. Fuck. I don't know why but it shouldn't surprise me that a console had a line up this good back then. Maybe I am just too old now.
it didn't have Madden or Fifa infighting between SOJ and SOA PS2 Sega Saturn Sega 32X store owners wouldn't carry the DC or the games is probably the #1 reason tho, You couldn't buy a Dreamcast after the 1st year even if you wanted to.
>>249447119 They would have needed to make that damn thing Super fucking light. I still have mine and that thing ate too much damn batteries as well. Way too big with a tiny little screen to. Wonder if they could have done a better handheld if they had the chance.
>>249447119 in 1994 no one really wanted a new anything, the Western retailers begged Sega to support the 32X since Genesisis still sold like hot cakes and the Nomad had just came out, but SOJ had their Saturn ready and then 1995 E3 happened and the rest is history.
>>249447173 >store owners wouldn't carry the DC or the games is probably the #1 reason tho, You couldn't buy a Dreamcast after the 1st year even if you wanted to. Think you're confusing Dreamcast with Saturn, bro. Plenty of stores had Dreamcasts and games - they just couldn't get rid of them. Saturn, on the other hand, was something no one wanted to stock up on. Especially not after SEGA's surprise E3 launch.
>>249447134 They needed it. Their 2000 launch and post-launch lineup were horrible and people weren't going to keep buying a PS2 to be just their cheap DVD players.
SEGA also let the Dreamcast's final year go out relatively okay.
-Phantasy Star Online and Ver. 2 -The Typing of the Dead -Record of Lodoss War -Daytona USA -Unreal Tournament -Bangai-O -Illbleed -Mars Matrix -Giga Wing 2 -Project Justice -Sonic Adventure 2 -Crazy Taxi 2 -Alien Front Online -Bomberman Online -Fatal Fury: Mark of the Wolves -Outtrigger
>>249448101 >The fact that the Megadrive/Genesis was doing fantastic in the West was totally ignored because they were obssessed with the Japan market. That and absolutely asspained that their decisions were backfiring on them, while the western side was doing so much better than they were.
>>249448806 Doesn't matter, as the ones making those calls in Japan are mainly suits thinking only about money and work. It's not a matter of "Our country has more gamers." It was more of "We believe we'll sell this many and we expect it to be at this price and in this manner."
Remember, SEGA of Japan did not want SEGA of America to drop the Genesis' price or have it come with Sonic packed in. They were also opposed to releasing a console without a game packaged in at a cheaper price.
>>249448806 Remember how nobody gave a flying fuck about metroid in Japan and how it wasn't until Nintendo shifted focus completely on the west that the franchise grew huge and loved, and what happened when they tried to appeal again to Japan with other M ? If a market doesn't want your product take your business elsewhere, it has nothing to do with gaming culture or homeland.
>>249448806 >But the gaming culture is far bigger in Japan and it is their homeland.
They can have 75% of Japs buy their console and it will only take a small amount of Americans to buy the consoles for them to beat the Japanese. America and therefore any larger country should be the priority. Especially considering how small Japan is.
Plus America consumes entertainment like it's for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I liked Sega a lot growing up but it's easy to see why they stopped making consoles. Just a shame Microsoft's Xbox has all this potential yet chooses to shit up the industry instead of truly improve it. For every good thing they ever done they always made sure to do something hateable.
Would much rather see Sony, Sega and Nintendo going at it if history could ever repeat itself. Although Sega would need to be told to not make retarded decisions.
>>249452202 >but you wouldn't want every company to target their IPs at casual markets?
The thing that ticks me off about /v/ is that they consider a broad spectrum of games to be casual. Such as Halo a series I liked for a while. Now if by casual you mean those shitty fla-I mean phone games then yes I wouldn't really want that. Although some company out there will always want to fill a niche if they know they can make money.
While it was a bit earlier in gamings rebirth (the gen after NES) I feel Sega should have known that gaming has gotten big again in America by the time there Genesis was out. Some of the things anons have said here about Sega's decisions only leads me to believe they let their stupidity or possible xenophobia get the better of them. Them being afraid of the PS1 though tells me that they couldn't have been scared that America didn't really care much for games and it was only going to be a fad for them. Basically saying it's just way too hard to defend most of these decisions I am reading that they made. Even when I try to analyze it more.
>>249453125 There's a huge difference between something like Halo, a popular console shooter and STALKER, a popular PC shooter. Halo is a casual game by definition, you can't be AAA and not have casual appeal.
>>249453547 >Halo is a casual game by definition, you can't be AAA and not have casual appeal.
Well then with that said I actually have and can like these so called "casual" games at times. I also liked AC 1 and 2. More AC2 of course. I don't get why so many on /v/ have so much hate for anything (and I mean anything) they deem casual.
Simple and casual games can be some of the most fun. In fact if Doom ever came out today I wouldn't be surprised if people here called it indie hipster casual trash since it plays so simple today compared to other games. It's simplicity is why I have loved it best.
So yeah there is nothing wrong with casual games necessarily. Only what types of casual games and fans might be the problem.
Sonic Dash/Jump/Shit on Games/etc. and Crazy Taxi: City Rush - those are examples of taking your core IPs and shitting on them by turning them casual to appeal to a more open market. It's basically turned Sonic and Crazy Taxi into Temple Run clones while pushing heavily on microtransactions and ads.
Phantasy Star Online 2es - this is how you take an IP and aim towards a more casual audience. It's much more simplistic than PSO2 is, can be played on Android and iOS devices and you can transfer your loot towards your main PSO2 character (well, in the Android version, anyway).
>>249453983 There is nothing wrong with casual games, but there's a lot of things wrong with games that have casual appeal. A lot of nickle and diming, a lot of bad design and sloppy mechanics, poor development environments, lack of personality, lack of identity, over-marketing, poor budgeting, obnoxious over-simplification.
DOOM is a simpler game and it flourishes in that simplicity. Assassins Creed is a homogenized game that stumbles through its simplicity, a game produced by 300 people but not a single one had anything personal injected in the game. You play DOOM, a game made by 10 dudes and you learn about them, who they are, what they like and what they're passionate about, it's a lesson in history and culture playing DOOM.
>>249454335 >Assassins Creed is a lesson in buyers remorse.
Nope you are wrong. Don't assume I played all of them either. Only played two games in the series. But while I agree they are too easy I wouldn't say they were bad. They were pretty damn good at times. Mostly well made. It doesn't matter if it was made by 300 or 10 people. What matter is if the game comes out good.
>>249454763 Assassins Creed definitely didn't turn out very positively. It had to be one of the worst examples of open world design I've seen in my life, with depthless mechanics and poorly thought out level design, that was so lacking in cohesiveness they completely fucked up the proposed free-running parkour system in favor of a plays itself system. One of the most insipid stories in gaming, dazzlingly stupid characters and an active mockery to the stealth genre. That, and the mission design, my god, what were they thinking? "Oh hey, lets have an open world game! where you go around cities, pick pocket the same homeless guy 6 times, collect the same flags 10 times, and jump from the same high places 200 times as missions. Fuck originality."
The series was off to a remarkably awful start, and I know I would not enjoy a new installment past the first.
It's good for you that you like the games, be my guest, like whatever you want, but the AC games are awful, horrendous games.
>>249455273 Look I admit that AC seemed like it would be way better before AC1 came out. It seriously even sounded like the perfect stealth game. What came out though while not even a tenth as good as I and many thought it would be, wasn't too bad either. It had a ton of potential but just turned out way different. Like Fable actually. >>249455339 >But Jade sucks though FTFY
>>249418148 >>249419256 You do realize the DC was discontinued before the Xbox was even out, right? And that Sega and Microsoft worked heavily together on both console, it's the reason why DC OS was Windows CE and why the Xbox had Sega exclusives and that Fat controller. The reason why they got out of the console market was because they had fucked up royally with the Mega Drive II and they tanked in Japan, their main market, thanks to not managing to get customers interested on the console and the PS2.
MS announcing it was jumping in made things crowded and hard to handle, what with PS2 being there and Nintendo's GameCube on the way. Dreamcast had no OS. Microsoft CE was what was used for some games, but nothing else. SEGA had nothing to do with making the Xbox. They simply provided more games on the Xbox platform because they felt it was the more suitable home than GameCube was (SEGA was extremely hesitant about releasing games on the PS2).
And SEGA's financial woes go between Mega Drive selling way less than Super Famicom and PC-Engine in Japan, CD and 32X being failures everywhere and Saturn flopping in the west. That's also not counting having 3% of the market share with Master System and Game Gear also being a flop, along with wasted money on the Nomad and various amounts of SEGA CD variations that combined consoles.
I suppose Sega saw Microsoft's Xbox as sort of the "successor" of the Dreamcast (which is why all of their good IPs went to the Xbox), but darn if I wish it went to a better console. I guess that's just wishful thinking though.
OT: Does JSRF work on 360s? I found a Sega GT/JSRF disc at a flea market last weekend for $3.
>>249458624 >but darn if I wish it went to a better console The OG Xbox was a fuckin' powerhouse compared to the PS2 and Gamecube, the games did go to the "better" console. My JSRF copy does, I expect the GT/JSRF disk to work too.
>>249459476 Doesn't seem likely at this point. SEGA gave people HD remakes of NiGHTS, SA2 and JSR and ultimately stopped. I'm betting sales were low as hell, despite all the bitching Sanic fans did to get an HD remake.
thank you /v/ for keeping this alive and not devolving into a >sega never made a good game ever
probably going to get shit on for this but since having current sega pulling those type of games en masse seems impossible i am content with the fact that they became a good publisher especially if you know moon
sure in a perfect world we would get all of their games localised but then again bamco also falls into that category
>>249448450 Same reason I keep telling blind Nintendo fans that the Wiiu isn't coming back to win this gen, unless they win the west. America and Europe are both simply more important than Japan, in term of sales.
>>249469118 Not too sure about Sony. The PS brand is like the only division at Sony that is making money. Now Microsoft has money to burn. They have more cash than Sony and Nintendo combined.....4 x over!
>>249470163 Oh, and I've already played JSR. It was ok, but would have been so much better if a) the camera button and spray button weren't the same button, and b) there were a button to press when you wanted to grind, so you could have more control over it (like in THPS).
>>249469525 Sony gets it's money from other division. The game division doesn't make that much money compare to the rest of the company. Sony's media, and finanical services are more profitable. It's obvious that Sony/Mircosoft are sacrificing profitability for sheer marketshare, and starving Nintendo out of revenue.
Playstation/Xbox brand wouldn't work if it was a solo company. Playstation rose the production of cost with cd/blu-ray players, and spend ridiculous amount on marketing. We already know that Xbox Brand is a loss leader because it's a marketing ploy.
>>249469118 Nintendo has enough money to last them until 2050 and that is without making a single dime in the meantime. They can afford to make a blunder once in a decade. And i am yet to hear nintendo selling it's buildings like sony to stay afloat or microsot ceo talking about closing down or outsorcing their xbox gaming division.
>>249470163 As for shadow man play the most superior version on pc, buy or pirate gog version, power stone, ooga booga, toy commander zombie revenge, grandia 2, skies of arcaida fighting games, beat em ups, and even 2k sport games are pretty good as well as sword of berserk.
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