How do you feel about combo lengths in fighting games? Up until this gen, roughly, long, screen filling, low damage combos weren't the norm.
Games like Injustice, Marvel, Skullgirls and Blazblue are built around these enormous, complicated combos which initially do small pieces of damage until completion.
Then you have older games like Street Fighter (II Especially) which used combos generally no more than three to four moves, but had devastatingly high damage.
What do you prefer?
I would actually love to see a fighting game with no combos at all. They were originally a programming error after all, and people got way too focused on that error over things like zoning etc. that used to be the whole content.
Okay, I guess Divekick does that. But another one.
Well then it would just be a poke game. The consequence of getting punished would be miniscule. Combos are needed in fighting games to show where a mistake was made by the player who was punished by said combo.
There are some without any combos that are outlied for the player but the endgame is always combos. Which moves flow into each other the best is what makes most if not all fighting games.
What really fucking gets me is combo timing. Tekken Tag 2 is a fucking ballbuster with the timing
I also wish 3d fighters were more prevalent. NUNS is a great game but extremely shallow and obviously panders to fan favorites.
I would kill for a One Piece style NUNS game
If I'm playing Third Strike, and a good Chun Li gets me in a corner combo, I go "AH SHIT!" then the combo ends and I keep fighting.
If I'm playing Skullgirls and a Cerebella or Fukua gets me in a good combo, midway through the match, I have to just hold back and mash while we bounce around the screen, waiting to see if maybe my opponent will fuck up.
As cool as big dramatic combos are to look at, they aren't fun in gameplay. Being hit with an insanely long combo is just boring, and focusing on mashing them out is just tedious.
I was called cheap back in the day for my E.Honda combo in SFII Turbo, which was just jumping fierce punch, crouching forward kick, sumo throw.
That's a ton of damage, but it's still only a couple seconds.
>As cool as big dramatic combos are to look at, they aren't fun in gameplay. Being hit with an insanely long combo is just boring, and focusing on mashing them out is just tedious.
I agree. I play MVC3 a lot and, while I like it for the fanservice and the satisfaction of actually pulling off a decent combo or assist game, I'm the first one to say Marvel is a great game to look at but a boring one to play. You make one mistake and you're instantly killed by a whoppin' 120 hits combo. Not really fun.
It makes the game more frustrating than it needs to be and takes focus away really from what I enjoy about fighting games. Long combos don't interest me. The Street Fighter formula is what works best for me. I tried to get into Skullgirls but the long chains are just off-putting. That game also lacks a decent entry-level online scene so it makes matters worse.
Unrelated, but does anyone know if Third Strike is coming to PC? That seems right up my alley.
My friends HATE it when I play Marvel with them because one of my better teams has Zero on it... You can keep combos going forever on him.
It's also why I like KoF more... Unless you use Hyperdrive in 13 combos are typically fairly short and brutal.
I prefer the system that smash bros uses.
>inb4 not a fighting game
there are only very few true combos, and instead you need to react to which direction your enemy is flying based on their DI, and then act accordingly to keep the combo going.
For this you need to have a better understanding of the game, your character, and your opponent and be able to improvise on the fly if you want to successfully keep a combo going.
All you need in traditional fighting games is to land a hit and memorize button presses
>Boring to watch
Depends on the case. I'm not much of a Skullgirls player, but with Marvel a Zero infinite is boring as fuck to watch, while other characters are way more interesting to watch.
>Street Fighter II
Combos didn't come into play until later releases and originally started off as a glitch. Not only that, but Combos were popularized in that exact same era with Killer Instinct. So saying "long, screen filling, low damage combos weren't the norm" is pretty inaccurate.
Anyone talking about Street Fighter II in the context of fighting game is generally referring to Super Turbo, which certainly had a combo focused system. The combos were 2 - 4 moves, generally, but still.
Long combos are pretty lame, talking like Taokaka or Arakune in Blazblue CT where that shit was like 15 seconds. Anything else is gravy, even Skullgirls is alright but they can get a bit long.
Most of the people I've seen that really complain about combo length are usually newer players that haven't yet realized that blocking is a big deal, so they usually end up eating that shit for ages.
>newer players that haven't yet realized that blocking is a big deal, so they usually end up eating that shit for ages.
Well, it does make you feel like shit when you're being punished with 15-second long combo animations for every fuck-up you make. I guess it's better when you're on the giving end. I wouldn't know.
ah, my mistake. i havent played it in 6 years. i only used jin, tron, and capCom.
i lost a lot.
I only go up to 8 hit combos
anything more is rude
I was confused at first as well, but it really isn't that difficult. The most important thing to realise is that the additional characters flying through the screen all the time are assists from the other characters, used for combos or defending.
I've never played it either but it's fun to watch sometimes.
Except when Chris G is playing
Guilty gear Accent core (not +r) perfected combos. The guts system makes damage taken reduce the less health they have, so high damaging short combos at first are dangerous, then longer combos are needed to close out or short combos with emphasis on oki.
Skullgirls has the best introductory tutorial in a fighting game ever. Also as it ships on PS4 it'll have Big Band, but it shouldn't matter anyways because gender has nothing to do with how good a fighting game is.
I just want a Power Stone type fighting game with deeper mechanics. Wan Piss Grand Adventure came close but fights would devolve into who could build up their specials the fastest by wasting the most time.
the tutorial is a lot better than most fighters at least. One gender isnt the problem, I just want a lot more characters, especially in a tag system game
still a great game tho
I prefer the street fighter length of combos but with faster gameplay. I personally find SF4 way too slow to enjoy.
Melee (hurr not a fighter) is pretty much the perfect mix of short combos, fast fluid gameplay, and even when getting combod the other player is still in the game (DI).
That being said I love the training room of UMvC3 because executing long combos is fun as fuck, but in vs mode and being stuck in one makes me never want to play the game.
>but they really should have more options to stop the combos
definitely this. KI for example has long combos but you get the opportunity to break them so you're pretty much always still in the game. I actually enjoyed watching the KI grand finals at evo this year.
It doesn't matter to you and I who knows how to look past that shit but the average person judging the game by the poster is probably going to pass on Skullgirls. I appreciate the roster and I enjoy the game but they really should've included a generic lead male character design aswell for a poster boy.
As cool as it is to see a skilled player mash out a long combo, I think there are better mechanics out there that don't have such daunting skill floors. Overgrowth, and to a lesser extent, Blade Symphony, feel like natural progressions of the genre to me: taking the basic positioning, timing, and quick reflexes and adding in new mechanics in place of muscle-memory combos.
There's room for all kinds of fighting games in the industry, I'd just like to see more based on mechanics that weren't originally designed to eat every quarter in a 5-mile radius.
>natural progression of the genre
It's made for Dark Souls PVP autists. I still have an extra copy of the game in my inventory on Steam because the game is too shit to give away to friends.
I'm okay with practical combos.
Things like that E. Ryu combo on Rufus are just stupid.
Just give me BnB combos like Akuma's c.Mk-short tatsu-fierce DP
Hate long combos. Doing them requires tedious memorization, getting hit by them takes you out of the game.
In my opinion, Marvel and Blazblue combos are way too long. I wish they'd be half as long and do the same damage. GG's longest combos are loops which are pretty easy to remember but tough to land.
Long combos are a casual magnet. Look at Marvel, the game is essentially fill bars, instakill chars. And it's OH SO HYPE when someone gets caught up on a combo because there's flashing colors and shit. It's the wrong way to go for fighting games, but at least it keeps ADD riddled kids away from other games.
He's been going on about his 'mental health' for ages now.
Personally, beyond like balls to the wall crazy people, I don't think all these 'mental illnesses' exist. It's just a good way to get disability money for not wanting to work.
I KNOW he has a video on his channel where he spends an hour talking about how his anxiety disorder is totally a real thing guys.
They can stay as long as they
don't cover 90% of the gameplay
don't do retarded amounts of damage except if a character has only damage going for him
are hard but not unreasonable
and the game gives you a get off me move(burst, alpha counter etc.)
Can I just say that I think that Tekken 6s bounds made (the majority of) 3d fighters and some 2d fighters that much less interesting? And that there is little joy to be had in wasting half the match juggling a dude or being juggled yourself?
I think fighting games cater far too much to the EVO crowd, and kill all improvisation in order to secure guaranteed damage and standardized tactics.
I really love how comboing works in melee.
The defending player has some influence, so the offending player has to be careful and can't just sleep through the inputs.
I'd like to see a traditional fighter implement this sort of thing.
I can agree to this. Though it could be my coping mechanism for playing Big Band so much.
His combos are short and strong. I think Cerebella has some solid short combos as well, but her reset game is ridiculous.
For viewing pleasure, generally short combos are preferred.
There may be some leeway for longer ones if they can vary in some way, but that would generally require more extensive knowledge of the game and wouldn't be accessible to new viewers.
For playing... that's kind of a tough one.
I enjoy playing sf4 but 1-frame links kill me, I will never get those down and I would not expect to actually want to learn how to do those consistently (even with plink).
Longer ones kinda give you a new feeling of flow personally.
I hear the recent version doesn't have the long ass combos that took minutes to finish, we saw those when it came out in arcades.
2 days till its out. I'm hype.
I prefer Soul Calibur combos. Most are two hits; a launcher or stun, and then you choose a finisher depending on if you want oki, damage, or positioning. Some can be extended to three moves with the use of meter, or are made longer with a wallsplat.
This system gives the most gameplay depth with the least superfluous bullshit in between. Launchers are risky, punishable or slow moves but give you big rewards. Every hit in a combo serves a purpose beyond just making the combo longer.
I fucking hate Marvel combos.
>I would not expect anyone to actually learn how to do 1 frame links consistently
Jesus christ I knew /v/ said some shit when it come to fighting games but this is just sad, you can nail that shit every time if you actually practice 2 or 3 hours a day. You really want high level play to not require dedication and training?
I unironically like how Smash Bros handles combos. The fact that your opponent can change their flight trajectory and you have to respond to it to follow up is actually pretty damn cool. Shame it's creator wants it to be a party game.
>You really want high level play to not require dedication and training?
you can have that without grinding down purposefully implemented 1 frame links that are essential for some characters
I only like long combos if they're timing / execution heavy. Chains that you have to memorize are just boring.
I dislike overly long combos. They're tedious to watch and tedious to play. Short combos lead to a nice back-and-forth gameplay where both players are constantly engaged, whereas long combos can lead to situations where one player is just going through the motions while the other player is unable to do much. Long combos also unnecessarily increase the skill floor to be competitive at a game by adding a lot of memorization and execution practice into the mix, without really adding to the strategy of the game.
To me long combos feel like Youtube video fodder. They're impressive to see the first time but shitty from a gameplay perspective, and by the fifth time you've seen Litchi toss out that 20 second long combo you're just sick of seeing it because it's a waste of time. They turn fighting games into what people who don't play/like fighting games think they're about - autistic levels of memorization and execution and both players just fishing for an opening to do their big combo.
Eh... I guess. Granted, assists definitely extend combos. Like I said, most characters have standard combos. Some characters, like Zero, Dante, Vergil, Doom, etc. have really long extended combos. Even worse is that their long extended combos are pretty much universal.
You don't see She-Hulk pulling off 102 hit combos. Or Storm(barring Ice Storm). Most characters actually have combos that aren't THAT long. I'm going by Marvel standards, here.
It doesn't? That's a fucking shame. I hope that someone tries something like it again and it doesn't just get lost to history because it's a neat mechanic and one that made Smash truly unique, and not in a bad way.
>not hard to execute
His execution is one of the most difficult. It's just that he's REALLY good and can hit confirm just about anything,, so people dedicate A LOT of time to him.
Vergil's not that hard by comparison.
>I think fighting games cater far too much to the EVO crowd,
So you think they should cater to casual faggots who are too stupid to actually learn the game and just want instant gratification?
Please kill yourself
>try MK9 for first time
>easy as fuck combos 7 buttons do at least 35% damage
>dead multiplayer combined with horrible netcode
>as im playing realize i dont know how to block
>there is a button to block
fucking dropped most casual fighter i have ever played, no wonder is so popular.
I prefer shorter combos, but also have the ability to do crazy long and stylish combos. Like SF4 and Smash.
This fucking thread again.There exist different types of fighters for a reason.If you prefer long combos,you can play anime fighters,Marvel and latest Tekken.If you prefer short then there is lots of SF2 style games and for 3d there is Soul Calibur and VF
My bad, normal DI is in the game.
Smash DI was removed, which was used to escape from multihit moves like Yoshi's DAir and Fox's UAir.
I wonder how Peach's blender will handle?
>the latest Tekken
I honestly think Tekken is one of the most intimidating games. I don't know SHIT about Tekken, and starting off is ridiculous. High level Tekken play is 10 years away from me.
I feel that SG is a game that the sum is less than it's individual parts. Like, so many of it's ideas and systems are great, but the actual game just feels bland as fuck.
Kof was the perfect middle point, most combos where extremely simple, but command attack linking made the whole thing much more maneagable and fun than SF games.
and then Kof13 came out and fucked up everything.
Every time I land a hit in a combo, I want it to be because I made a decision. I chose this move to be the next move in the combo either because of where my opponent ended up, or because I want to do the most damage at the expense of having an advantage when the combo is over, or visa versa or something like that.
Any time I'm doing a move because IT IS THE BEST MOVE TO DO HERE SO DO IT AUTOMATICALLY I am wasting fucking time and not really playing a game at all, I'm just hitting per-ordained buttons. I hate marvel and BlazBlue and partially Tekken because of this.
Smash Bros. and Soul Calibur do this really well. I don't care much for DOA, but it doesn't do a bad job in this regard either.
>Opponent isn't air controlling at all
That game DID have a combo problem, anmely with Algol and Hilde. Most characters didn't, and it was fixed in SCV (unless your name is Viola, but I think she was put in specifically to cater to Marvel players).
>it's easy as piss to get into
What, are you using youtube videos or something? I'm just playing the game and trying to figure it out. Maybe I just need more people to play with. I don't even know where to begin. Trying to see how Nina works as of now.
SG has a lot of that. You need to make different combos for different situations. Most of the damage finishers supers take out your positional advantage and reset the neutral.
All of his USF4 videos were all recorded from his stream one night. He just cuts out sections and releases one every few days. Apparently his job is video editing too and once Capcom actually hired him to make a video on Marvel
Modern Soul Calibur does not have long combos except Viola, and even when they have mid-length combos it's because they used meter to extend it
Most characters in most Soul Calibur games do not have long combos
>complaining about long combos in Mahvel games
That and the tag/assist system are the selling points of that series.
I never played Dissidia 2 but that looks escapable to me when she hits the ground
Even still it relies on some janky shit and I doubt this could be done reliably. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not expert on this game.
He's shitposting. Use avoidingthepuddle.com, levelupyourgame and tekkenzaibatsu.com as resources for learning Tekken.
Personally, I wouldn't start with Nina as a new player. She's quite tricky to play and her core combos are reasonably execution-heavy (think multiple consecutive Viper SJCs).
That's funny because I was actually the number 7 Tager on the XBL leaderboard for CT and CS. He meant unreasonable as in unreasonable to execute. Not like complete bullshit to get hit with
fuck litchi in CT
Don't pretend you know anything about Bloody Roar 3 anon
>complaining that one of the main selling points makes the game less fun
>She's quite tricky to play and her core combos are reasonably execution-heavy (think multiple consecutive Viper SJCs).
Too bad I'm stubborn, and I like her. I'll take a peek at those websites. Not a huge fan of using online resources to learn, but it's worth a look.
Alpha 3, Third Strike, Super Turbo
Capcom vs SNK 2, Ultra IV, Skullgirls and MvsC2
Alpha 2, Persona 4 Arena, MvsC3, TvsC
Mortal Kombat 9, Injustice, The Soul Calibur Franchise
Out of the games I've played, at least.
>Not a huge fan of using online resources to learn, but it's worth a look.
You don't have a choice when it comes to Tekken. The game doesn't teach you shit about its core systems including its movement techniques etc.
I didn't want to create an unwarranted new thread for such a minor question, but are there any videos out there of Dan winning a tournament? I want to see Dan play.
Nah, hitting the ground is the only combo-able state that is untechable. All hits after knockdown were untechable as well.
The only really unreliable thing here is the last part where he thrusts her up and then proceeds to hit her with a 1-framer into HP attack. And there are many other ways to make it easier-reliable, albeit less damaging. Pic related, ender could be something much easier here but I chose fancy stuff.
>tfw you thought Urien looked lame as shit when you first saw him
>you then realized how fucking amazing he was at high levels of execution
I give zero shits he has an unblockable setup, that shit is amazing.
To the topic at hand I enjoyed some of the older games systems, not only was it a lower barrier to entry in terms of picking up fighters, it didn't get obnoxious like how blazblue had 20 sec long resets with Litchi in CT
Dan has become a troll character. People playing Dan seriously usually can't go very far with it.
I'm not saying there are no Dan players, but the actual potential on this character seems very limited.
I prefer Dan players who don't play seriously, running away all the time and taunt your ass to make you angry. It seemed more natural to play him like that.
>Sanford plays a GREAT Dan when he isn't throwing his sticks.
As a smash player, I've come into this thread out of interest. Could someone explain to me where the fun is in traditional fg combos? For the player combing it's executing a memorised pattern, and for the one being combo'd you're doing nothing at all. The game has essentially stopped until the combo is over- there's no interactions between the players, or improvisation on either side. Or at this is how it seems at least.
Not a shitpost, I'm genuinely interested in what you think.
Really? Injustice bnbs look like this:
back+2, trait, 2, 2, Down, Back, 1, 2, 2, Down, Back, Meter Burn 3, Back 2, 3, Up, 1+2.
And SF4 combos look like this:
J.hk, B+mp, hp, HCF+lk, FADC, B+mp, hp, DP, FADC, QCF QCF PPP.
Marvel 3 combos look like this:
1, 2, crouching 3, Launch, 2, 2, 3, QCF 1, super jump 2, 2, 3 QCF 1, 2, 3, Launch, 2, 2, 3, Knockdown, DF3, QCB 1+2, 1, 2, 1, 2, assist, jump, 2, 2, 3, 4, Assist 2, DF 3, QCF 1+2.
There's a big difference.
What's wrong with poke game? Hell, pokes are the best parts of fighting games.
And no, it wouldn't only be poke game, because you still would have zoning, mixups, wakeup game, ect. Also, certain moves do more damage than other move, which means that instead of combos, just give everyone a punisher that does a fuck ton of damage.
It can be done. It wouldn't be that bad of a game either.
ST and 98 already got it right, they don't need to be anything other than short and sweet
I hate SF4's 1f link festival and 13's CMV simulator known as HD mode but they're the closest I'll get to playing the fighters I really like outside of GGPO
>souble fadc with ultra at end
>ever actually seen outside of combo videos
Anyone play 3rd strike on GGPO pc? How friendly is it to beginners?
I think I would absolutely love the shit out of SF4 if they dropped the 1-frame links and allowed a handful more to chain those hits. SF4 does combo damage well, execution is complete dogshit by sheer virtue that you have to plink/pray for netcode.
It's normally LMHS, but for comparison, I used numbers. Numbers don't work with SF, so I didn't use them.
Nevertheless, that's a paraphrased (It's likely wrong, and depends heavenly on assists, but essentially, it's doable with some changes.) 4 meter strider combo with two assists. I know there are longer, and better combos, some of which use less meter.
Well, I play HD Remix, but close enough.
>Capcom vs SNK 2
FUCK YEA- I hate that there still isn't a good way to play this outside of emulation. I was hoping it'd get the Third Strike treatment. The version available on PSN is shit.
Eh, it's okay. It's literally the vanilla of fighting games right now.
Though I don't like the game, I respect it on a technical level
Never been a fan.
3 is better in every way.
It's fine for what it is.
Never been a fan
Never played, no Wii stick.
As someone who played 5 years of Melee and shat on getting gud at other fighters for many years before going hypeshit for 3rd Strike, let me answer your question.
First, I suggest you get into different genres of fighting games. Variety is fun. Then, if one inparticular hooks you up (like what happened when I started playing 3S), try to get into it a little bit more and see if it draws you in.
Because if I am to give you an answer is that it is the exact same feeling you get when you pull off combos in Melee or are able to wavedash strategically and fluently. A "FUCK YEAH" hype feeling of knowing that you maneuver this character well.
Despite the whole taboo with Smash being a fighting game, we all share the same sentiment when playing any of them. I still love Smash and I still play Melee competitively, but I also started playing more fighting games and got a new fetish one in the form of 3S.
Funny thing, what got me into 3S is playing SF4 originally. I bought SF4 because I wanted to relive the SF2 hype of my childhood and I found out Street Fighter was much deeper than I used to think as a 8 years old kid.
But why bother wasting dozens of hours of your own time finding and learning all the system intricacies and oddities when they're all well documented online
>no interaction between characters
What are footsies and neutral game?
What is a hit confirm?
It's more muscle memory than anything.
>For the one being combo'd you're doing nothing at all
Your answer is in how you recover. Of course you can't escape the combo until it's over. That's kind of the point of a combo. If you just got combos for free, then I'd understand you finding it boring, but it's not that simple. Defense is very imporrtant as well. Just going in isn't always the best idea. Actually, it's usually a bad idea unless you know exactly what you're doing(and how the other person might respond).
Unlike SSB, you don't get punished for utilizing defense. You can block for as long as you need to(or as long as you actually can). Defense works a bit differently in the game, so approach methods differ as well.
That SF combo is waaaaay too long.
I prefer short combos, but only because I'm just bad at fighting games. Whenever I try to do anything complex I just get this weird sensory overload and fuck up.
You missed his point. There aren't any footsies are neutral game while one person is comboing another. One person is inputting commands and the other person is praying he fucks up.
Which is why I fucking hate Marvel.
No worries, if you got something to say it still gives me a reason to post.
I found that after the Cecil assist the homing fireball connects always and checked it on all the cast so its pretty reliable. There's also a funny corner variant, pic related, where you can chain crazy stuff since homing fireball gives a lot of stun on hit.
There are other ways to give execution barriers. Parries are one way. But really, execution doesn't need to be in every fighting game. It's not so important to the genera that you can't make a game without it.
Also, no combos are a way to give big damage, but make it so that damage isn't always guaranteed. It has nothing to do with rewarding the player.
Virtua Fighter 5:FS has few combos, and they tend not to be very hard. However, regular moves can be VERY hard, depending on the character. Also, the game has counterhit moves, which instead of leading into a combo, just to a fuck ton of damage (Backflip, body check), as well as big damage grabs (Burning Hammer, Akira's launcher grab).
VF5 wouldn't need much tweaking if you got rid of combos. You'd just need to up damage on anything that launches. The game is already hard enough, execution wise, that combos don't add much to it.
Marvel's best moments is the neutral when you have assists out and trying to get the first hit. I do agree that Marvel needs to tone down the combos, but that;s still the major appeal of the games.
You don't get punished for defense in SSB. You can see it in Evo Top 8, people hated how defensive the game could be played essentially 'for free'.
I agree with everything else you said though.
>All I want to do is get good at Hugo in 3s
>All I do is get bodied by Chun Li and Ken online
I always thought that going in into an unfriendly and unwelcoming environment of predators that rape your shit was a good thing to git gud.
The better the players, the better your chance to improve. If you're smart about how you play and figure out what you'Re doing wrong, getting used to playing with good people as a bonus will make you develop faster than if you go with tiny pussy steps by spending 8 hours in Training mode to memorize a combo execution on a defenseless dummy.
The best way to become fluent at combos, as I do it personally, is to, first, learn them and, then, apply them under pressure.
You'll spend the longest time missing and not being able to execute anything at all, but, eventually, you'll get used to the pressure and as you get used to it, your mind becomes clearer and calm, allowing you to better execute them under pressure.
Just play people, dude, even if losing sucks, you don't have a choice but to go through losing a million matches before you understand what's going on.
Just remember fighting games are videogames, you play them for fun, you don't have to aim for Daigo tier just because everyone tells you fighting games are super scary hard. Just get in, have some fun, appreciate the experience and get better at your own pace.
I've done them, online, with lag.
That's actually a quite simple Oni combo. It's just really meter intensive. It's still useful in round 3, if time is running low, because it's easier to hit than SGS or raw ultra, and grinds away the clock like a motherfucker.
>You don't get punished for defense in SSB.
Well, I was referring to a shield breaking.
I don't think I did. I was saying combos aren't free. The "fun" in combos is largely in executing them, and a lot goes into that. Like I said, combos aren't free.
I will play, but I'm bad so don't expect much
Was more directed at are there nothing but killers playing or would I run into a few people who won't be quite so top. I am fine with running into high level opponents. But there is a very fine line between a learning experience and a brick wall when it comes to fighers.
Watch some Hayao or Y.S.B. Obviously you won't be able to rip out standing 720's to punish whiffs, but standing 360's are very simple.
Load up training mode and set Ken as your opponent. Record his best pokes and just punish those over and over again in different ways. Once you have punishing pokes down, set up rushdowns and punish those. Once you have that down learn how to punish "safe" moves etc. etc.
Use 360 more to make them regret getting close, then use Hugo's great pokes to make them regret attacking. Then you own the game, man.
Just finished watching this
>Killer Instinct started long combos
This guy doesn't even know his fighting games
Darkstalkers was THE fighting game that solidified long combo strings, and even that was okay because the game moves so fast, landing a combo is a reward in itself and the combo timing is a bit stricter
Hugo is a lower tier character so you'll have to compensate on a lot of things.
That being said, Hugo is used so rarely competitively that you can really mix up other players. They aren't used to fighting Hugo, you can use that to your advantage.
Hugo is NOT a combo based character. Don't go into the game thinking you're going to be like Chun Li and pull off amazing combos. Hugo's strength is in his normals. His normals are so obscenely strong that you can get as much damage from a couple of them as you can from one of Yun's longer combos.
Your most powerful and useful move is your standing Strong punch. It has incredible range and massive damage. This is the move you'll use to largely control the match -- that is your strategy when you play Hugo, CONTROL, control the entire match.
Your next most powerful normal is crouching Forward kick. This acts as Hugo's sweep, and is actually the fastest sweep in the game.
Do not use standing Roundhouse kick, it's useless.
Standing fierce punch is your go to overhead. It may look simple, but it's going to be the third part of your normal trinity.
Standing Strong Punch, Crouching Forward Kick, Standing Fierce Punch.
These are your key moves.
Obviously you're going to want your 720 super. Not only does it do obscene damage, but it intimidates players. The moment they see you choose that, they are going to be expecting it -- use that to your advantage. They aren't going to be expecting you bashing them to shit with normals. They are going to be too busy waiting for your 720.
That being said, your 720 can win you a match pretty easily. Most people execute it by doing a jumping splash (You may note I didn't include Hugo's splash in the 'Trinity' as I call it. While it's a good crossup, it's nothing to write home about) and then landing in their 7 20.
The problem with this is that it's very predictable.
Personally, I say master the Hajiki Screw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIftOZwKO3M
Anyone who uses the words "memorize/d/ing combos" has no idea what they are talking about or is shitposting.
Learning your combos and executing them consistently against another player is literally the very first thing you do in order to be an utterly average player. The core of most fighters is attempting to land those initial hits against a competent player. Combos being long shouldn't even be a factor since getting opened up and allowing the combo to land on you is 99% on you. The other 1% is fucking Eddie and his FRC unblockables jesus christ
The Hajiki Screw looks hard but it really isn't. I've known people who could pretty much master it after half an hour in training mode. It's literally like snapping your fingers on the joystick.
Once you can master that, it's only a bit more practice to double the move. Standing 720s with Hugo are devastating due to the range his standing medium punch puts you at. Blocked or unblocked, a standing Strong punch can lead directly into your 720.
If your opponent is fishing around, a standing Jab punch is a good option to push him away without giving him much of an opening. While most Grapplers have fairly shitty jabs, Hugo's is standard.
Other than that, master the parry game. A lot of people can get Hugo to a mid-level playing style, but if you want your Hugo to be competition ready, you need to master his parry game.
Hugo's anti air throw can be stopped by nearly any incoming air attack, which means most people will use jump in attacks on you.
However, if you can parry their jump ins, you recover before them, with enough time to pull off any of your command throws, or if you've mastered your Hajiki Screw, you can counter every parry with a 720.
I played Hugo in the competitive circuit for six years, while he may not have flashy combos, I don't think there is anyone in the game more capable of controlling the match better than him, and online surprise will be your greatest ally.
People don't know what to do against Hugo, and once they see you've chosen his 720 super, all they will focus on is avoiding it.
The best Hugo player in the world, Hayao, has won tournament finals using only normal attacks.
Wow this was a lot longer of a post than I intended, but I hope it helps.
Online playerbase =/= tournament scene.
Nobody plays HDR in tournaments anymore, and that is what he is referring to. Everybody pretty much just went back to ST/never stopped playing ST.
all these fightan threads lately are making me hype as fuck to get a new stick and pick up SF4 again
got TTT2 in the mail to kill time
A majority of people will be "good", of course, we'Re talking in Online standart. Most of Online is shit tier if you compare it to the average competitive scene, but the average 3S player has been playing for a long time, so even if he's shit on a competitive level, he still knows how to play his character.
You'll run into noob shit once in a while. The funny thing about online is that even if you're honest about sucking at fighting games and that you lose 20 matches out of 25, you're guaranteed to run into someone who is so fucking bad at the game that you'll realize that, as long as you actually try and have fun, you're not doing so bad after all.
I don't really know how to explain it, it depends on the day, I guess, some days, I fight nothing but high skilled players who rape me all night and I don't win a SINGLE match, other days I fight shit people that allow me to grow my rank a little bit.
Just play, I've been playing Arcade mode 3S on hardest difficulty for a year and only ever play Online occasionally and I find that everytime I play, I get a bit better still. On average, I lose 90% of my matches, but, compared to before, I get more rounds out of them and it's often even.
I'd say that I lose a lot because I'm extremely nervous and, eventually, I start to forget what to do.
It really isn't so bad, you'll spend the first few days getting raped non stop, but if you go through with it and practice regularly on your own, after a few months, you'll start having fun.
Just have fun, man, it's all I can tell you, I'm too long winded in my explanations, The best way is to have fun. Don'T take the game too seriously, don'T try too much to git gud, don't get too angry or discouraged for losing, just go in like you'd go in for a game of Super Mario. Do what you can, have some good laughs, appreciate your opponent's skills and learn from them in the long run.
Just have some fun, damnit!
I don't mind how Virtua Fighter did it but then again its not like many people play that game.
I understand why the communities for 3d fighters are smaller than 2d, but its not any less disheartening. :(
I still remember my first time playing that game.
>got multiple perfects with Dr. Shoals
>beat three friends who had owned the game for a while
>salty as fuck, but was still funny as hell
I never played it again. I've got to get that for parties or something. If only it weren't overpriced.
I really like the UMVC3 combo system, actually. I think it allows for a ton of creativity and shit, I have fun testing the rules and finding out new shit that works.
honestly I don't even like playing against other people, I just go in training mode and play it like a rhythm game. where damage is score and the roster is the tracklist.
>I think it allows for a ton of creativity and shit, I have fun testing the rules and finding out new shit that works.
Outside of infinites, it is pretty interesting. I have trouble optimizing combos, though. Finding new technology for characters is fucking hard, too. I can understand why so many people copy/paste teams. Feels great when you do find something that works, though.
>Build a team just using your favorites
>find some shit that works
>be able to pull it off well
Not the same guy but please elaborate. I never considered soul calibur, especially pre-IV to be very combo intensive. Certainly not in the vein of tatsunoko and mahval.
Not everyone is trying to get to EVO in less than 2 years, the first step to understanding your character is to fucking play the game and enjoy yourself. I never said "Don't think about playing competitively.", I said "Don't focus too much on becoming the next Daigo to the point where you forget to have fun and throw your stick across the room in front of a public of hundreds.
It's fine to take the game seriously and practice, but what's the point when it makes you so angry you throw things around?
He's a beginner, if you get a beginner into fighting games by giving him a fucking training routine, he'S gonna get bored after a few weeks. Let him start by playing the game for fun. I never said fun didn't involve practicing combos and playing smart.
Just don't get mad that you can't beat high skilled players after a few months is all I'm saying, improve at your own pace and don't be afraid to play the fucking game against Beast God Mode players.
I understand what you're saying, but the a lot of players just don't have that mindset.
>watch youtube video of some top player tearing shit up
>try to emulate it
>get mad as fuck
>especially when losing
I see it all the time.
THIS LOOKS FUCKING AWESOME
O. Sagat, Alex, Balrog, Adon, Liu Kang, Slayer, Azarel, Nobody, Nobody, TJ Combo, Sagat/Geese/Guile, Akira, Miguel, Siegfried, K'/Shen/Mr.Karate, Butt, None, Haohmaru, Strider/Doom/Cable, None, None, Lord Raptor, Wolverine/Hawkeye/Dormammu, Alex/Tekkaman, Miguel/King, Donovan, Filla/Squiggly/Big Band, Akira, None, Black Adam, None, None, None, Marth, None
im teetering but since playing as blanka things have been better
when i dont play at my best im distraught
I really hate fucking things up that i've spent hours and hours practicing but I do just enjoy the game.
I love making the person I play against frustrated or matching their most damaging combo with one or two hard to avoid hits and shenanigans.
I am a little too hard on myself now because I think i made a mistake in starting to play against people I know are miles better than me because I feel a great shame when I cant do something right and then anxiety comes after it.
My actual method of getting past it is
listening to Ricky Gervais, Steve Merchant and Karl Pilkington's radio showas i play
I can handle games where it's balanced for it. In SF combos are one-frame links and generally pretty short, so it never gets out of hand. In BB the combos do moderate damage and they aren't that difficult to pull off so it's not a barrier of entry for everyone.
It's when it becomes shit like TTT2, MAHVEL, KoFXIII that it goes in-fucking-sane. It's lucky that there weren't the huge ToD combos in TTT2 finals this year because that would have been unhype. KoF on the other hand, was every player picking from the roster of the same 12 characters, forgetting how to FUCKING HOLD BACK, and then getting juggled in a corner by highly-uninteresting moves.
If you like a broke as fuck game where V-ism fucks over everyone else, and reminds us why we want to go back to playing Alpha 2.
EX2 is a better game. And nobody likes EX2.
>tfw not sure whether to drop SF or not
I guess I can just spend less time playing it, right? I don't have to necessarily drop it. Then again, I don't feel like buying Ultra if I'm not going to play it.
Gr8 b8 m8.
Alpha 3 is largely regarded as one of the best fighting games of all time, but please go ahead and tell us how bad it is.
Also I bet you think Capcom vs SNK 2 is overrated, right?
Hence why online can become a boring experience sometimes.
I know that not many people have that mindset and, in my opinion, it's a problem. This kind of mindset makes arrogant people who are unwelcoming to potential new rivals.
It happens often that I come across a high rank who just pick Yun to end the match quickly as if he's saying "You're not worth my time!" In a fucking public online lobby for consolefags trying to have some fun. I'm not saying they'Re scrub, Yun players are scary as shit and entertaining to watch, but they're fucking BORING!
Every single match goes down the exact same way no matter who plays Yun. People like that just takes the game too seriously and wants to show off to you rather than even it out and pick a character they're less used to. In the end, what can I say, they do what they want, but it just gives a bad atmosphere. You'll also get quite a few people who will disconnect if they're losing.
My personal pet peeve is Akuma players using Raging Demon if they're starting to lose, I don't have a problem with it, it doesn'T make me angry, but I'm dissapointed because it shows just how much a guy can get desperate just to win one confrontation and it reflects on the majority of online players and FGC.
I mean, sure, take this seriously, it's a good passion after all, but people often act like they're in EVO 100% of the time and cannot take a minute just to have a few casual games and think a bad display of skill or not showing complete arrogance against lower skilled players is shameful or some shit.
Luckily, it's pretty balanced, I often play with high ranked players who are respectful and understanding of your level. One night, I played this one guy almost through the whole night and I managed to beat him once out of like 30 games and when I beat him, he sent me a message congratulating me. It's cheezy, but small attentions like this motivates noob players.
Are you retarded Alpha 2 was way more broken than Alpha 3, and Alpha 3 had a much larger and longer competitive scene, hell people still play Alpha 3.
If you are going to shitpost you should atleast know what the fuck you are talking about.
>People like that just takes the game too seriously and wants to show off to you
I get this so much when I play SSB with people. Never had I heard people circlejerk about "this character takes skill, SKILL, SKILL DURR NO SKILL" before.
>Mario takes no skill!
>Skill, skill, skill, blah blah blah
For fuck's sake, it's a goddamn Nintendo character mash-up game. Calm the fuck down and play whoever you want. Goddamn. And these are the people that get mad as all hell when they lose or start losing. I will play with someone, and I can pinpoint the exact place where they get mad. It's silly.
I argue that if you're not playing for money, there's no damn reason to take a game so seriously.
Why dont you go to SRK and ask which was played more Alpha 2 or Alpha 3.
You know people still have regular Alpha 3 tourneys.
Im sorry anon but you just dont know shit about fighting games.
Why? Miss Old Baz?
It's OK, I do too.
Don't tell me you're one of those people that dislikes it because of the FGC memes.
I cant wait for PC ultra so i can use my Juni mod on Decapre.
Playing Yun takes some skills, but he's so insanely efficient that every match is boring as hell to play.
Corner traps corner traps corner traps-Yes?-You win the game
Corner traps-No?- The game becomes Divekick-Corner traps corner traps- Yes?- You win the game.
The shitty thing is I can't deny it's amazing to watch. I love displays of skills, just displays that takes me less like a maggot.
Honestly Decapre is the most i have ever been hyped for SF4, Juni was such a fun character to play, glad they finally brought her move set back.
Shame Decapre lost Earth Direct though but oh well.
The problem with online isn't even that people pick certain characters or are too good or want to show off.
The problem is that people who play online only learn enough to get them easy wins online against people worse than them. The Kens who do jumping fierce into sweep and mash Fierce shoryuken do so because it works against players who are so comatose that they get hit by it.
Marvel 3 had Teleport + Beam Assist/Drones everywhere because it's babby's first left-right mixup, and it also helped that Wesker was capable of doing it while being ridiculously easy execution-wise.
Sometimes it's something people use that's legitimately OP, sometimes it's people using what they saw someone use on a tourney stream, sometimes it's just having a lot of dumb opponents. Regardless of the cause, most online players scrape by with the bare minimum to do well enough to rack up meaningless victories while writing off the few losses as due to flukes, tryhards, lag, cheating, etc.
/v/ has a bunch of stream monsters that don't understand for every guy you see at Evo there are 20 loser bracket warriors who've been hitting locals for years for the fun of it. It's all esports to them.
I wonder how much of a fat turbo nerd you need to be to actually learn this much about a video game.
I love fighting games, but I just pickup a controller and play, I don't sit down with a calculator and read computer code to figure out how to do a 10000 hit combo.
To me Vampire Savior has the perfect combos. Most are short enough that the pace of the game is maintained, but there exist longer, more difficult combos, for certain characters. Even these longer combos are relatively fast.
>The consequence of getting punished would be miniscule. Combos are needed in fighting games to show where a mistake was made by the player who was punished by said combo.
If they got rid of combos, and made the combo-opener do all that damage on its own, wouldn't that be roughly the same thing, then?
Shield breaking is pretty rare in tournament. More realistically it eventually gets small enough that you have to tilt your shield to avoid shield pokes and then you get shield stabbed, much as if you wrong-blocked a low in a traditional fighter. Or you just drop it because taking a hit is better than shield break, but you need some seriously unreal pressure to make that happen.
You can super cancel from a chain if you're canceling into a demon type super. For example Liliths BNB combos are full chains ending with cHP canceled into LI.
Plenty of characters have BNBs with specials, you just have to make sure to do link instead of chains in order to get them.
>Start playing Vsav on GGPO
>Cant do anything
>Trapped in the corner trying to block and just getting hit by 3 frame overheads and lows regardless of what i do
Never have i played a game that's so harsh on beginners.
In a game where rushdown actually requires some thought, you'll find that combos are important in the game's design because they're critical for allowing the setup of resets.
Dark Force corner escapes are used almost exclusively against Aulbath bubble setups, because that's the only thing that works. You don't want to use your DF like that if you don't have to because most of them have harsh recoveries.
Sticking to Tech Hit and Guard Cancels should be enough to alleviate corner pressure, although they are required to do so. Many characters have literal infinite blockstrings that you cannot get out of without the use of Tech Hit or GC.
I've never seen a cunt even understand simple concepts like zoning and footsies. As much as Leddit would love to have a bunch of cunts fucking up EVO, the fact is, they can't play fighting games.
It's scientifically proven that cunts don't have nearly the reaction time as men, regardless of what the television force feeds you.
Combos are crucial for fighting games for numerous reasons:
>They create a risk/reward system by making it so that different mistakes result in different amounts of damage. A blocked ultra should result in a max damage combo whereas something like a crouching mk poke is usually less so.
>They allow for the added mindgame of resets/combobreakers/bursts/TAC's. Most games with long combos still require the opponent to stay involved in the game in order to avoid the opponent pressing the situation.
>They create a risk/reward factor in terms of execution. Playing it safe for less damage vs attempting a more damaging yet riskier combo adds an extra layer to the game.
>Most games with long combos still require the opponent to stay involved in the game in order to avoid the opponent pressing the situation.
>No scene where I live
>None of my friends play
>I own a great stick and an obscene amount of fighting games but just play by myself and online
I just wish I had a friend or two to come over and have fight nights with...
The only reason my 'friends' still come over to play video games with me is because I've been sicking their dicks since highschool.
All four of them are 'straight', and two have girlfriends, but they still come over all the time to play video games, which generally consists of playing a couple matches before they pull out their dick which is my cue to suck them off, then once I'm done they leave.
tl;dr My friends only hang out with me because I suck their dicks.
But you would have to drill "borderline" stuff in any other action genre, if you wanted to hang out at a high level. Like quickly hitting a far away enemy that's a few pixels in size and is also moving in an arena FPS
This. A casual player and a pro player are given the same tools. The pro player simply learns to utilize them better, or in unintended, yet helpful ways. There is nothing a pro player can do that, with practice, a casual player can't, regardless of the game. A chess grand master and a guy just playing for the fuck of it both move their knights the same way, but the grand master, through effort and practice, figured out methods to use his knight to execute blocks and critical captures, while the novice just kind of moves it around without 100% thinking.
If it's not combos, it's option selects, or mixups, or just straightup footsie fundamentals. Look at Divekick. Yeah, it's a goofy game full of FGC memes, but it removes the combo system and all that changes is the best players know how to best use their character.
Honestly, lots of Smash's combos aren't even really combos.
Tech chases are akin to resets, and properly following a DI is basically their version of okizemi/wakeup game. The simple fact that DI-ing a certain way can make a combo whiff is proof enough that it's not actually a combo.
>I would actually love to see a fighting game with no combos at all. They were originally a programming error after all, and people got way too focused on that error over things like zoning etc. that used to be the whole content.
Well then it would just be a poke game.
The original Mortal Kombat and MK 2 didn't have combos built-in. Some moves just linked better with others, that's all. It was up to the players to figure out what set of moves they could string together to make their own effective combos.
Then they introduced built-in dial-a-combos with Mortal Kombat 3. I remember the EGM guide to Ultimate MK3, where they brought up that the new dial-a-combos kinda took the fun out of figuring out how to do it your own way. Why bother coming up with a combo that can do 33% damage when you can learn a dial-a-combo that does the same amount of damage?
>mfw there are people ITT who play fighting games on their computer
Until this changes, /v/ should never talk about fighting games.
>combos in Skullgirls typically last 10-30 seconds in length
If you're doing a 30 second combo in Skullgirls, you probably could have done more damage in half the time with resets. Long combos in Skullgirls are really fucking impractical, man.
They're similar enough to call 'em combos, they just aren't as set-in-stone as "real" combos.
Lots of smash players also play fighting games with traditional combo systems, so it's not like they don't like them.
>input DP motion
See, here's the part where you're wrong.
To do the lightning loops with zero, you actually have to do the DP motion first, THEN jump. It's basically a TK input but for a DP attack instead of a QCF.
You CAN tiger knee lightning, but you can also just jump and input light dp. The timing on Magneto is a lot stricter and is actually easier to execute if you tiger knee them, but I find jump and dp to be less straining in general.
I liked button blocking but it makes crossups useless, and as a viewer of competitive fighting games of events, it's more fun watching the tricky left right set ups than just auto blocking both sides
Anyone know that video where he was depressed over a Xbox message about how he was a disgrace on the fighting game community? That was fucking hilarious!
CvS2 was more about which Groove you selected and whether you could roll cancel or not though, as I've seen up to half the roster used back when my local arcade had tournaments... THough I admit that your point still stands.