How do you define gunplay?
Is it the punchiness of weapons? Their communicated weightinees and WHOMP they inflict on the enemy? Good ragdoll physics and environmental damage?
It seems to me that gunplay must start and end with weapon and the act of firing. Everything else just mask or enhances basic mechanics.
Its difficult to pinpoint one thing alone. Its a mix of visual feedback of the bullets on enemies/enviroment, sound design, weapon animation and feel of the guns depending on the genre ("realistic/unrealistic). Almost perfect example imo is black. bullets riccocheting from a metall barell through a wooden plank blew my mind when I first saw it. Games these days dont do that shit and its kinda sad.
pic semi related
Camera shake or movement to differentiate the sharp kick of shotguns and heavy bolt actions versus most semi autos. Good quality sound from the report to the boom to the echo, to the bullet impact (including different materials) are also critical. BF3 in whole was mediocre, but their soundwork was superb.
always kinda feels shitty when enemies barely actually cover themselves when taking cover, and when you can effectively just make them not react at all by turning the speed of time down, i mean seriously, its babbies first difficulty setting
Play ARMA? Wanna talk about immersive gunplay? Download the JSRS2 mod.
its appropriately loud, they add a lot of echo effects lik bullets snapping from breaking the sound barrier as they fly over your heads. The video really doesn't do it justice. it will actually make you FEAR incoming fire and feel like you're being suppressed just by how loud it is.
>Good ragdoll physics and environmental damage?
this is a big thing for me, if shooting guys with different weapons ultimately has the same effect on their death animations i'm just gonna use the gun that's best by stats
Seriously, FEAR's shotgun doesn't look incredibly special, barely has a reload animation, and isn't even the best sounding shotgun, but when you walk up to a panicking enemy in slowmo, shoot him, and he fucking explodes into a bloody mist? That's a good shotgun.
IIRC ARMA 3 also simulates lowering and putting on ear-pro and headphones. I don't care though, the audio from JSRS2 sounds like sex and I couldn't imagine playing ARMA without it anymore.
looks like singularity
that fucking shotgun
>shoot a dude in the leg
>his leg flies off and the rest of him does a frontflip
>blood fucking everywhere
how is it that FEAR is still so damn good despite its age
weapon variety (and i don't mean the same gun with +2 added to damage or some shit) uniqueness of the weapons, the "kick" and sounds from the weapons, and how they affect the enemies all come into play
Sound, enemy reaction, animation, and one key thing i've noticed is gore. If you shoot someone and blood comes spurting out, there's a massive difference between that and shooting someone and they just fall over.
I find it most satisfying with a bloodsplatter on the wall behind, especially in games like hitman, you could shoot once in the face, there'd be a big spurt of blood on the wall behind and they'd fall down.
you're mistaken and here's an example of why ONLY THE GUN MATTERS WHEN TALKING ABOUT GUNPLAY:
take a shitty animated/sounded gun, no recoil, hitscan, whatever. make it trigger the most beautiful ragdoll animation in the universe. it's still bad gunplay.
The best thing about FEAR's guns is that if you shoot them in the arm while they're shooting, their aim goes wild and they sometimes shoot each other or nearby hazards like steam pipes.
You can tell a gun's got proper weight when it kicks back and the enemy gets knocked over.
Resident Evil 4 had the best gunplay. Starting from the simple gun mechanics - reload, aming, recoil to enemy reactions.
Gunplay is how the weapons look and sound to me when I fire them, the damage they inflict to enemies and if the weapon results in a super cool enemy death.
See attached for example: DC-17m may not leave an impact, but it's deadly. VERY useful but not a terribly satisfying gun. However, the knuckle vibroblade is probably the most satisfying way to kill something based on how enemies die to it. The helmet blood and gore effects also count towards it.
But gunplay can be /made/ bad by poor reaction.
It's why Borderlands has some of the worst gunplay I've ever seen. Shooters, RPGs and healthbars really don't mix well as a trio. Though somehow Mass Effect 3 pulled it off.
>inb4 >ME3? GTFO It had decent combat
> act realistic
> feel satisfactory to use
> cause enemies to react appropriately
The most satisfying weapon for me is
Combat Pistol in GTAIV
Seriously, man, it felt like a real fucking .50 chambered gun.
if you take a gun with great animations sounds, good recoil, hitscant etc. but every time you shoot a guy he falls over with a dumb animation without so much as a yell or any blood, its bad gunplay
Rag doll is part of the problem. STALKER for example has hit gun play I reckon, because the enemies don't react at all to bullets hitting them until the final bullet turns them from a ridgid person into a rag doll that flies backwards.
Really cool rag dolls and physics for that but your weapons feel weak until the final shot.
Consider in DOOM all the enemies recoiling from each shot so you could tell if your bullets were hitting it before they explode in blood.
It's the only weapon I've like in whole series and holy shit it was satisfying to use.
So yes, keep calling me names without trying it out first.
>HALT! I'M THE INTERNET WORD POLICE AND BY TELLING YOU YOU'RE USING THIS WORD OUT OF CONTEXT I'M GOING TO END UP NAILING 20 WOMEN TONIGHT!
Not him but have you tried to shoot an npc in the leg, only for him to slowly rise up and then execute him with a headshot? Shit was pretty satsifying. Too bad they did away with that in GTA IV, along with a bunch of other questionable decisions.
>gas can item
>think to myself "oh man i can shoot out some ones legs and FUCKING SET THEM ON FIRE like an evil cunt"
>shoot some random in the foot
>they fall over, get back up before the can pour animation starts, start running
>shoot them in the foot again and they fucking die
He's not wrong, though. Hitscan weapons are guns that inflict damage instantly if your cursor is on the enemy. Projectile weapons are just as they sound: they fire a projectile that has travel time as it goes towards the enemy. The Quake railgun is a hitscan weapon: if the cursor is on the opponent when the player fires, it counts as a hit.
I hope that helps dissolve some of the assburger in this thread.
Now hang on a darned minute, are you telling me that actually is a thing that changes with difficulty?
10/10 Game of the millennium. Another example of a thing that DOOM got right and countless imitators didn't - difficulty settings that change more than the health and damage.
To be honest though I finished all of it on Ultra-Violence and never noticed wether the enemies recoil or not.
DOOM 3 has no enemy recoiling either and feels shit, unless again that is just an affect of me playing on Ultra-Violence again.
Gunplay is foremost about reactiveness. Weapons have to do exactly what you tell them to do, or the gunplay will be shit. e.g. New Vegas - shit gunplay because of input lag and etc.
That, and lighting. Oh, and their textures are pretty fucking exceptional, too. My mind was blown in Mirror's Edge when you could see the invidiual threads in the fabric of their clothing.
Fuck, DICE would be a godtier developer if they weren't under the cruel yoke of EA.
no, the gunplay is fine but the shooter on the whole is bad. you can still feel satisfaction looking at how your gun behaves, it's just that the end result is tacky. I believe gunplay has to be defined as everything that happens BEFORE the projectile hits and AFTER it leaves the chamber. Therefore even hitscan FPS can have good gunplay.
gunplay is how you use the guns and work with them in your environment, so the gunplay between BF4 and CS:GO is totally different and adds a different flow to the overall pacing, and playstyle of the game, and this comes down to the statistic of each weapon and the movement and the size of the maps down to the way you interact with your team.
>Firing sounds (VERY IMPORTANT)
>How it looks when the enemy gets hit (impact marks, and also enemy reactions
Although it's not directly part of the gun, it still is a MAJOR visual cue as to how powerful the gun actually is. If a gun makes this giant bang with a sharp recoil hit like a .44 magnum revolver, but then the enemy doesn't seem to notice the hit, it doesn't feel as good.
I played Resident Evil 5 and like it a lot - the guns felt good and the recoil was nice, eventually once you have the mechanics down the most efficient way to take out enemies was to shoot them in the knee and then trigger a melee finisher while they are stunned.
If you want defined gunplay. Play lightgun Shooters scrubs. Like Time crisis or house of the dead!
yes, but that's part of the physics engine not confined to gameplay. gameplay is a segment of physics engine I guess.
I mean, people are including environmental damage in gunplay, that's silly. That's just a part of what makes good shooter good.
>shit sound design (BUT MUH JSRS)
>no firing animation since operation flashpoint, your entire torso is shifted backwards instead
>no animations for aiming down the sights (only camera work) or fire select switch
Good job Bohemia.
Go back to a3g retard.
Pc related, BIS improvements to their 13 year old love child
it's gun"play" not gun"looks'n'sounds", what matters is how the gun handles and what you can do with it
i can like Quake 2's super shotgun because it's so powerful it can push enemies, if it doesn't gib them completely - despite it looking like its melting in your hands, or sounding like a clunky metal door lock
>animation for aiming down sights
Because moving your neck/head/eyes to the sights requires a special animation?
There is no hipfiring in Arma, you are always aiming down the sights accuracy wise, the visual representation just changes
>shit sound design
BF4 sound mod and Speed of Sound
You mean recoil? arma has recoil.
I always thought the gunplay was shit not just because of that but because enemies are either melee types who charge and you have to backpedal like Serious Sam or they're basically crappy bots who also walk towards you and shoot at the same time. The fighting in the 3D fallout games was atrocious.
>lists more sound mods
>you are always aiming down the sights accuracy wise, the visual representation just changes
By moving your head to the fucking gun in a camera movement.The lack of animations degrades game play, and in this case, gun play
>You mean recoil?
I mean firing animation. Read it again.
>try playing RO2
>every time the gun's sights are in a slightly different spot
Personally I prefer the new Speed of Sound, not the one that was released first, that had a second version as well. Even though PR2, BFBC2 and Insurgency does sound better, especially PR2 regarding supersonic bullet cracks.
Regarding the topic; Arma does have some nice ballistics, sure, even though wind isn't simulated. And the recoil is pretty bad without mods, as well as the sound. The ragdolls however, are absolutely terrible, which plays a big role in making the gunplay feel good. Animations are lacking too.
I don't hate it, but it is lacking, the problem is the game is built on mods.
I actually hate it when guns turn enemies into pink mist. Just seems like an easy way so that devs don't have to render dynamic dismemberment and ragdoll physics. I remember the Undead Nightmare DLC for Red Dead bumming me out because the blunderbuss in that turned enemies into pink mist.
It doesn't do it for every kill and all their limbs and their heads come off too. Hell, in that very webm, I dismembered the second guy and the third just ragdolled.
>mfw running into a room and performing the Congo Combo on a bunch of Japs.
To be honest, GTA IV could have had fantastic gunplay if it was more grounded in realism. If you wanted to use an AK, you'd have to carry a sling or store it in a trunk, and you wouldn't have hundreds of rounds on you at all times.
bf4 sound mod introduces a sound system similar to BF4
It changes what sound you hear depnding on the location (forest, desert, etc) if there is something in between you and the sound, whether the sound is in doors or not, reflections, reverb, etc.
You don't magically have an animation for shooting. You have recoil.
That's stupid. Where you store the weapon has no influence on how good the gunplay is. Recoil, damage, sound effects, and reactions matter. Turning every game into call of duty "carry only 2 guns" realism doesn't increase fun or have an effect on gunplay.
You deserve a reward, Anon
Oh god this. It was bad in Arma 2 where you couldn't even tell if you hit or killed the guy. In A3 they supposedly alleviated it by ragdoll, but I swear it's not even that better.
To add to this:
>hard time moving interior
>ridiculous input lag making aiming very hard
Anyone play Insurgency? It's one of the few games I've played that actually have a fire selector.
I'd take the pre-determined death animations above this fucking abysmal physx implementation.
Good god, deliver me from this hell.
Unless you're taking extremely long shots, you would never, ever notice.
Hitscan just means that at the moment of "launch bullet", the game performs a trace to determine what it hits and then sends an event indicating that said entity was hit.
It doesn't mean that as soon as you press LMB, the hit registers. The firing of the trace can easily be animation tied; you press the button, the animation starts up, after a suitable "trigger pressing" delay the recoil animation starts and the muzzle flash particle system is engaged, then an instant later the trace is executed.
This produces a proper timeframe for the delay between deciding "I want to fire this gun" and the bullet hitting something WITHOUT spawning a tiny projectile moving so fast it would probably cover the distance from muzzle to target before the next screen refresh.
>mfw running behind japanese lines, and picking up a katana, then doing a fake banzai charge.
The ultimate disguise to get those yank katana kills.
Movable parts dammit
Great Sound effects
Also the way the characters react to being shot should be a huge factor. When people get shot it should look like they just got the wind knocked out of them and absorbed a huge shockwave. For example see Max Payne 3 for good reactions. That game uses euphoria which is like living ragdolls.
Because its resting on the boards, I wasn't prone
JSRS a3 suck major ass
just like Blastcore does
Some guy had to MOD blastcore to make it better.
its the exact same thing with ARMA 2 and OFP. What, did you expect BI to start being a good dev? I might rather want to be playing VBS 2.0, but it isn't commercially available, if you want a milsim, you'll have to deal with ARMA and bohemia. there is no alternative.
RO2 has good gunplay.
Two of the best aspects:
>the sights are not always in the middle of the screen, aiming feels more like actually aiming
>looking down a scope doesn't zoom the whole view, just the part in the scope
Seriously, why don't more games do this?
I'm a dev. This'll be out in the Sniper/Marksman/Helicopter update
We'll be adding in bolt actions with actual animations and the UTAS with pump animations too.
The guy/s who made that gun had to make the animation, don't expect it to be like that for any other gun.
Sadly we're stuck with invisible magazines and hands clipping through damn near everything.
Yeah. I think I actually read somewhere that those reload anims aren't actually proper animations, but they're scripts, that only sort of direct how are the hands supposed to move which is why they're so simple and ugly.
No, but just youtube the BC1's M416 versus pretty much any other one.
BC1 also put a lot more emphasis on the reverb, so when you fired a gun interior or in a forest, you sure as hell heard that.
>>the sights are not always in the middle of the screen, aiming feels more like actually aiming
>my hands change length every time I move them and I have no muscle memory whatsoever
that must be the most retarded "muh realism" mechanic I have ever seen in a first person shooter
So does this mean you'll be addint better effects and audio in the game with the new DLCs or patches or something? Because JSRS and Blastcore are a hundred times better then what we have now in the vanilla game.
Gunplay should be a mix between the mechanical and the theatre.
FEAR has the best gunplay of any game because
Mechanical: recoils are punchy and realistic, enemies react when being shot, they also react when their teammates are shot, enemies used tactics to try to kill you, (such as cover-fire), they seemed to have psychological responses to things you did (they'd panic when you scissor kicked their buddy's head off for example), and your guns had decent animations for reloading, firing and movement
Theatrical: sparks flying, misted blood, sound effects such as when a bullet strikes an object near you and ricochets) , enemy movement and reaction to your gunfire (if you nearly hit them they'd panic and get in cover but the ones you weren't focusing on would be somewhat more brazen) , bullets that tore huge holes in shit (they didn't just leave tiny holes but ripped the plaster off the walls and left only the concrete underneath), and that fucking dust, man. Holy shit the dust left after you had a firefight and the state of the place, everything felt perfect.
Very few games really hit the marks (hue) as well as FEAR did and those that did I still don't remember as fondly.
You and me both, brother, you should play Underhell for HL2, or SMOD.
Trying to think of other games that does this well, but my tired mind is failing me.
I go shooting quite a bit so for me I want the guns to have the same heavy hitting bang or crack that real guns do. They need to HIT you, it's why Bad Company 2 is still my favorite Battlefield game, almost for the sound alone.
Realistic recoil is nice too, lasering people with full auto 7.62 NATO is fucking retarded.
I know you mentioned sound, but I can't stress enough how important the gun sounds are in any game to make it feel good.
I respectfully disagree. I think it makes CQC encounters pretty random yet at the same time exciting. It's so common to meet with an enemy soldier just for the both to miss something at the center of their screens.
I hate games that reproduce bullet noises as a zip or a whoosh sound. Only subsonic rounds do that. Supersonic?
Fucking BANG even if the little fucker missed you by many metres. Supersonic things are loud as hell.
>mfw I got a nugget for 70 bucks
>mfw firing it for the first time
They're both completely different guns, incomparable because their origins and philosophy of use is completely different.
You'll only regret the Mosin if you can't handle the recoil, which is considerable. It's a good hard hitting round, much more powerful compared to SKS's 7.62x39 but the latter is still perfectly fine, and you're paying for that extra power with a much larger and heavier gun.
Hey, I just got my moist nugget, and I love that shit, not just for the memmy involved with it. A lot of my real life friends told me to get one. I`ve never even seen an SKS in a gunstore up in Jew York, but nuggets are fucking everywhere.
>my moist nugget
This is my nugget motherfucker.
>that shitty wood quality
>two different bolts
I bet the stamps don`t even match, faggot
Surprised no one mentioned RAGE.
I mean yes, its pretty damn close to being complete shit, but the one part it did really well was the gunplay.
FEAR was better yes, but RAGE was the best in recent memory for me for just pure gunplay.
>getting shit signed by moot
Why? He's just another guy.
>find safe point with clear line of fire
>compensate for gravity, wind, heat mirage
>missing with a .50 cal sniper doesn't rip the target's arm off
It shall always be gunPLAY, never gun realism.