>play DRG since beginning >see WHM is OP as fuck in Frontlines >begin leveling CNJ >duty timer pops instantly >literally focus target tank and occasionally hit cure >commendations out the ass >never return to playing DPS
>>258099031 It was. Crystal Tower is ARRs only 24-man content and it's strictly pugs. You can make your own 8-person party at most, then you get grouped with 2 other parties to form an alliance of 24. Everything in CT is a clusterfuck, but at least for the second part they cut it down to 1 tank per party for a total of 3.
>Virus cast on Scylla, 60 second cooldown! <se.6> >50 seconds until Virus is off cooldown!<se.6> >40 seconds until Virus is off cooldown!<se.6> >30 seconds until Virus is off cooldown!<se.6> >20 seconds until Virus is off cooldown!<se.6> >10 seconds until Virus is off cooldown!<se.6> >Virus is off cooldown!<se.6> *30 seconds later* >Virus cast on Scylla, 60 second cooldown! <se.6> >...
>>258101381 >FFXIV >WoW clone >Final Fantasy 1-6 released before the first Warcraft RTS >FFXI beta out before news of WoW even began >FFXIV/ARR out before WoW2 You can say the popularity (IE casualization) of MMOs that WoW brought to the baby table had influences in XIV, but its far from a WoW clone.
Also, WoW sucks, and has always sucked. It's also had the worst lore of any franchise known to man >MUH HORDE >MUH ALLIANCE
>>258101620 >Numbers justify quality! This just in. More people saw Transformers 4 this year than any other movie released. Transformers 4 is the best movie of all time because=number of people who pay for you=quality.
>>258102103 Its not brah. Most of the mainline mechanics from XI (which was long before WoW) are in there. There's a lot of window dressing from WoW, just as every other MMO including Everquest from the past decade.
>>258102350 Because there's only so many ways you can meaningfully differentiate tanks and healers and still have them as defined, important roles, while there's lots of ways to differentiate DPS classes from one another.
It's never going to stop until the holy trinity is abandoned or at least softened up.
>>258102959 >still using the trinity system there has not been an mmo worth its shit to successfully do away with the holy trinity. Its not perfect, but there has not been anything better to come along.
Single target tank Multitarget tank Tank whose role is to absorb damage, he has lots of Hp, lots of defense and takes tiny amounts of damage. Tank who tanks by evading damage. Maybe he's agile, maybe he has a shield, but he simply avoids damage rather than taking it. Tank who out heals damage. He doesn't avoid it, and doesn't reduce it much. He simply survives by healing himself fast.
That is 3 which could be played in 2 different ways for a total of 6. Single target damage reduction would be a typical warrior. Multitarget damage reduction would be some kind of juggernaut who shouts at shit. Single target evasion could be a duelist, fancy fucker who is hard to hit. Multitarget evasion would be a swashbuckler, he'd have swords in each hands and be spinning around slapping attacks away. Single target self healer could be some kind of paladin. Multitarget self healer could be some kind of berserker who loves to get stuck in 1v10.
Single target healer Multitarget healer Focuses purely on healing Focuses on shielding allies from harm rather than flat out healing them Focuses on strengthening allies or weakening enemies thus lessening the need for healing
Single target healer is your typical cleric. Multitarget healer is someone who uses prayers and shit. Single target shield could be some kind of elementalist. He manipulates elements to block attacks. Multitarget shield could be some kind of onmyouji. He prays and chants and shit to erect shields. Single target buffer/debuffer could be some kind of Necromancer. He manipulates bodies. Multitarget buffer/debuffer could be a bard. He sings and shit to boost allies or cripple enemies.
>>258103841 I don't fucking care. I have mario if I wanna jump.
I just want an MMO or online game that focuses on dungeons and bosses. not raids. But I just wanna play with my team of friends who all have their own unique fun classes and experience fun online fights. I was hoping W* would scratch taht itch but it fucking didn't.
>>258103425 Nice armchair game design, Anon, but most of that shit has been tried and proven to be either unviable or completely overpowered, depending on the specific circumstances - and balance is everything in an MMO. If classes are underpowered or overpowered, players will switch in droves and you end up with 6 classes, of which maybe 2 are actually played.
>>258102935 Heh, when I was in CT a while back on my scholar, I had a guy in my party tell me to stop using cleric stance. Mind you, I was toggling it on and off as needed while manually healing with Eos. This is really basic shit, and things were going smoothly. I asked if he noticed that I was turning it off when healing and that I was only doing supplemental damage when it was safe to do so. He insisted that ever using cleric stance means you're trying to be a "faggot dps scholar" and then voted to kick me. I wasn't even hostile about it, I just explained that CT didn't have demanding healing and thus it makes sense to do supplemental dps. The rest of the party agreed and said they didn't want a "dps scholar wasting a slot" and I got kicked.
Since then, I just watch streams on my second monitor and barely pay attention in Syrcus. I get hit by stuff constantly, but since nothing hits for damage worth a damn I just heal through it. I always get multiple commendations for the absolutely terrible job I do. The lesson is to never try to play to the fullest extent in a pug. They'll just hate you for doing it.
>>258104749 No, what I'm saying is that it has been tried and hasn't fucking worked. You can keep throwing around your pipe dream design ideas all you like, this is how it is. I don't like it either, but then again I'd rather they just do away with the fucking trinity because it's a shitty design crutch. Though since it shows up even in single player games nowadays, I'm not holding my breath there.
They are as different from each other as DPS classes are.
Your average DPS falls under one of 4 categories. Melee or ranged. Physical or magical.
But you want mechanics?
Single target tank is your typical fucking tank. His mechanics are run in and use aggro generation. Multitarget tank uses shouts and AOE aggro generation but otherwise is similar to the above. (These two are in the game right now)
Single target evasion tank is a duelist. He converts his chance to evade into offensive power. You try to hit him and miss? He slaps you for it. He will enter stances and shit to parry your attacks and counter. But he's weak against groups due to his stance breaking after it parries/counters something.
Multitarget evasion tank is a swashbuckler. He dances around like a fairy and spins those swords like a mad man. The more people attacking him, the more adrenaline he has to dance around and dodge shit. He literally converts his offensive power into evasion by having his weapon being used to deflect attacks.
Single target self healer is a Paladin. He has a lot of abilities that heal himself and grant him regeneration. He's basically a tank/healer in one, but he can only heal himself.
Multitarget self healer is a berserker. This nigga don't use armor. He loves getting hit. But the more he gets hit, the tougher he gets and the faster his wounds heal. Naturally if he's 1v1 he wont get many bonuses from this, but 1v10 grunts? He's suddenly invincible and healing faster than anyone can hurt him.
Show me the classes in FF14 where this has been tried and didn't work. I want links and info to back up your claims. Because last I remember, FF14 never had classes like this and I only played it like 3 months ago or so.
Honestly I don't think there's a problem with the idea of the "holy trinity"
I think the fundamental problem is the crutch of "threat" as a mechanic. Tanking should be about physically impeding the ability of the enemies to get to the healers and dps, rather than some magical effect that makes the enemy irrationally cease desiring to kill the biggest threat to them.
I'd like to see an MMO where the tanks job is to immobilize, to slow down, to physically grapple with the enemy and hold them back while it punches them in the face. Or maybe DnD style attacks of opportunity that allow you to do special attacks to an enemy that tries to bypass you and go to a backline party member.
I suppose you can argue that the threat system aggregates that to a degree, but designing a system around a non-threat based system means that flank attacks from additional mobs becomes a much bigger issue. Formations would be more important too. For that matter, can we get rid of the scripted attacks where a boss telegraphs attacks 30 seconds in advance or does a strict pattern that allows you to predict and negate all of their mechanics?
It has 80 classes and they're all going to have something that makes them unique.
One class has the job of pinning down enemies and shit while others beat up on it. Another classes job is moving enemies around. He can pick them up and slam them into each other, pull priority targets closer and throw away threats and so on. Another class is about teamwork. He can make people in his party enter formations which he controls. These formations can be used to exploit enemy weaknesses or strengthen the group in some way.
Those are just a few examples of the classes it will have. The classes are all highly specialized and good at one or two specific things but there is a massive variety (and you can change between them as you would in FF14).
>>258106676 In 2.0, the release version of ARR, the Paladin was a tank that was designed to withstand damage by reducing it by large amount due to excellent defenses. Basically, closest to your first idea. The Warrior was a tank with little damage reduction, but a larger HP pool and better self healing capabilities.
Mind you, these differences where relatively small, probably not on the scale you envisioned at all.
This ended up resulting in the Warrior being able to straight-up solo parts of 4-man content, including bosses, because his self-healing could compensate the damage dealt to him. The Paladin could do no such thing. But in the actual endgame, Coil, the damage being dealt was so high that not only did the additional damage far outpace the Warrior's self-healing, but also what healers could or were willing to compensate. The Warrior could literally solo 4-man content, but was considered a liability in the endgame. SE's first content patch made the Warrior more like the Paladin, and that rehabilitated the class.
So there you have it. Even the most minute differences in playstyle caused people to throw this much of a hissy fit. In a game you claim to have fucking played, no less.
And I'm not posting sources for that because this took too much time to type up as it is, go look that shit up yourself you lazy faggot.
>Two different classes have different strengths and weaknesses
This isn't a problem with the game or it's design. This is a problem with the community being fucking babies. So fucking what if two different classes are both good at two different things? What's even the point in having two separate classes if they're not even different?
If I was square, I'd have told people to go fuck off and quit being a bunch of babies. Or I'd have made a variety of content that suits various classes and play styles.
Modern day MMOs are all pieces of shit because of people like you.
You call two classes being different "imbalance". All you care about is having a mount and grinding for gear in your 5 man raid (because you're apparently not "grinding" when you do this) and you're a spoiled shit who wants everything handed to him on a silver fucking platter.
Two tanks are different? One is good at something, but bad at something else? The other tank is bad at the first thing, but good at the second? THAT IS BALANCE.
What you want isn't balance, it's homogeneity. You want everything to be the fucking same. Why even have classes? Why not make one class that can do everything because that is what you want.
>>258108479 >If I was square, I'd have told people to go fuck off and quit being a bunch of babies. Or I'd have made a variety of content that suits various classes and play styles.
And this is why I call you a fucking armchair game designer. Because you spout this edgelord bullshit "Heh fucking casuals, I'd shown them what for", but we both know if your fucking money depended on it you'd fix that shit up ASAP and then you'd ask players if maybe they wanted to take a shit in your mouth as compensation for the ordeal.
>>258108831 Not that guy, but in a game with 80 different classes, even with unique attributes, it'd be really fucking difficult to balance the game such that one class is not objectively inferior to some other class in pretty much every respect. Just because a class can do something different does not mean it can do something useful.
I'm not saying more choice is bad, but when you have 80 choices I really doubt you can make each one meaningful in any significant way.
If one class has no use, it's not that the class is useful. It's that the game is poorly designed and doesn't take use of this classes abilities.
I will use an extreme example here. Imagine being a healer. Now imagine a game that has absolutely no combat. The healers going to be useless purely because the game does nothing that requires or makes use of a healer.
>>258107917 Warriors having nothing except a higher hp pool was completely retarded. A paladin could turn an 8k hit into a 5k hit
A warrior just took the 8k hit and healers were the ones that had to do all the work. Now he gains more healing so the bigger hp pool is an actual form of mitigation and he has an on demand short duration damage reduction buff to use when he knows heavy damage is coming. Instead of just being that guy with 10k health that can occasionally heal himself for 500. While Paladin gets to be the guy with 7k health taking 40% less damage.
PLDs are your standard "Warrior" tank in other MMOs, shield, block, parry, dodge, mitigation tank.
WARs are basically Death Knight tanks from WoW, high HP pool, outheal the dmg, fuck shields and most mitigation.
I hate DK tanks in WoW because they die too fucking easily. WARs in XIV however do okay, and gain a much bigger bonus from Stoneskin since it's based on their max hp.
All this tank talk makes me think though, based on some of the discussion above...what about "Support" Tanks, who don't necessarily take aggro, they just put up dmg absorption buffs and your goal is to keep your party alive almost like a Healer, or prevent the dmg outright, rather than keeping threat and soaking dmg. That would make things alot more interesting and wake up the DPS a bit more too, break 'em of that "OH GOD ITS LOOKING AT ME RUN AWAY" habit making tanks have to chase shit down.
>>258110126 >Bonus XP for Combat & Gathering classes first time around for the day. >Some gathering spots need to be taken out to progress and/or need to be gathered in a certain order >Treasure Chests after gathering enough from an area. >Boss that needs DoL in certain areas gathering to take down a Boss' Shield or something similar.
>>258110973 Or just have NPCs do what combat work there might be and the only way to keep them alive or keep things safe is to use your jobs in a related way, e.g; collapsing tunnels or digging an exit as a Miner, Botanist can mix up some Sleep Powder from nearby plants like in that Turtle Guildhest, shit like that. Non-combat combat.
>There's plenty of openworld mmos and most of them are shit.
Bullshit. Theme park MMOs outnumber these 1000 to 1. And the few of them that exist are usually better than your average Theme park MMO while having 1/10th of the budget.
Just go and look up the figures. Since WoW was released, there has not been a single successful subscription based theme park MMO released. Most of them failed within a year, and by 2 years most were basically dead. (FF14 might be an exception, it's still too young to tell just yet)
Also, before we argue. I'm defining successful as a game thats player base continues to increase as it ages. These games all had a peak player base within the first year (most within the first month), then it dropped and dropped, a few had a small spike if/when the game went free to play.
>>258113393 I've been playing it since launch. Sure I'll get burned out a month or so before an update lands, but that it keeps me entertained is something. Not much conversation happens inside dungeons, but plenty happens out of it, in linkshells, party, and free companies. There was a stigma in XI about using "Public" channels for conversation, and that's more or less carried over. Also, it has over 2 million players, more since the free trial started. So that makes it pretty damn popular by MMO standards. Hell, a year after its release and there are still login queues in peak hours.
>>258114173 I see where you're coming from, but having to enter as a full party would destroy what I enjoy about it most, honestly.
Like >>258100135 said, it IS a huge clusterfuck, but that also means that the encounters are designed around it and that your contribution is usually fairly small if you don't want to stand out. This makes it surprisingly fun and relaxing since you can just kick back and fuck around with nobody noticing and it not impeding anyone's progress, really - but if you want/have to, the content is so easy overall, you can stop fucking around and save the asses of the entire 24-man alliance (it needing saving seem to contradict the content being easy, but people are REALLY stupid).
>>258115418 Lately it seems you get people from the same server more often, but in theory it can be anyone.
The latter is how it was in the first part of CT, and people played and treated each other accordingly. Maybe I've just been lucky, but it seems since people noticed they find themselver grouped with others from their server more often, they don't play as badly or resort to flinging shit at each other quite so fast.
>>258114921 The only time I've ever seen a wipe in Crystal Tower is in the Labyrinth of the Ancients on that prat where there are the three bosses. If one of the 3 teams is full of shitters then you wipe
I hit the level cap in FFXIV recently and have been scrambling trying to figure out what to do. I've been doing the story quest, found that minifilia persons catmom and have been trying to unlock hardmode dungeons i don't have access to because i have crap gearscore. So i guess i'm going to be doing daily runs for mythical tombstones and upgrade my shit.
>>258116083 >>258116227 I've heard of frontlines. I'm mainly concerned about the awful lag/rubberbanding. Can't imagine going from 8 players to 72 players will do any good in that regard but guess I'll find out next week.
>>258116582 Well, your first priority should be to find like-minded people and join an FC or linkshell so you have a bunch of friends to do content with. It's basically the only real long-term enjoyment any MMO has. Until then, though: If you haven't already, you should do your relic quest and upgrade to Zenith afterwards. All the steps are really easy nowadays, it sets you up with a good weapon that allows you to contribute decently, no matter what your role is and it introduces you to trials with actual mechanics, which are a significant part of the endgame.
Once you're comfortable with your class(es) and have some decent gear (tomestones, like you said, and Syrcus tower are the main sources for that), you should try out some Ex Primals, if you're looking for a challenge. Garuda and Leviathan are probably the easiest, and can both be beat using only the DF with a little luck and patience. Once you're comfortable with your performance there, you might want to look for people to do Coil with, if that's your thing.
>>258099929 >Be SMN >Do literally everything better than everyone else >get 3 comms >don't have to worry about the other dps being retarded since I count for 3 >don't have to worry about a tank in 4 man being shit because titan-egi >stop playing because everyone else is fucking retarded in coil
>>258119642 Yes because being a SMN is so fucking hard. "Let me just summon my monster out and now just spam DoTs all day everyday." The only thing you're good for is for an extra res if the 2 healers somehow magically die.
>>258120151 SMN has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game. A good SMN and a bad SMN will have a 100+ dps discrepancy even with the same gear. A good SMN can also handle many of a fights mechanics while still topping DPS charts. I regularly did T7 while kiting and still doing ~300-330 dps and could do around 370 if I wasn't. Any other SMN I saw would barely do 300 if they weren't kiting and would drop to sub 200 dps if they were kiting.
A good SMN is doing more than spamming DoTs and ruin
>>258120806 >A good SMN can also handle many of a fights mechanics while still topping DPS charts
Except SMNs, good or bad, can't handle shit. 9/10 fights require either some form of burst DPS or CC, and SMN is shit in both departments. I know you guys like to think you're hot shit for topping the DPS charts, but while you're doing that, the rest of the DPS has to pull double duty actually dealing with most fights' mechanics.
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