>>276540913 Western, and I don't say that to be annoying. I just can't get into JRPGs, but there is barely anything that can be related to as a human being.
And the world are always filled with so many original shit that in the end everything is so alien, I fail to care about any of it. There is no immersion, because everything is so chaotic. Things happen, but they may as well not be happening, wouldn't make a difference, the world would still be this unexplained mess with no foundation or knowledgeable cause as to why shit it is this way.
Of course, I generalize. Some JRPGs would probably fit my stability and coherence criterias, but there are way more WRPGs that do. Also, western stuff just looks better imo, more brown, more green, more gray, more earth colors. But that's probably my westerner subconscious.
Same shit happen with japanese horror movies and animes. They suck so bad, because all they do is throw weirdness at you, and say "LOOK, IT'S CREEPY AS FUCK", but there are no cause behind the events, it's like this because why the fuck not.
In fact, from these media, one could say that japanese productions focus more on the esthetics rather than the, how could I say.. inner working of it. J-Horrors movies are just paranormal phenomenons thrown at you one after the other, in a random other, scaring you everytime. But it fails to carry you along an horror story you could feel immersed in, or relate to.
You can see it in asian philosophies too VS western philosophies.
In asia you have philosophies about contemplation, being one with the world, the "now", unity of everything that is material. One can see how a culture descending from these thoughts patterns could appreciate media where one big feature is looking at original visual creations that goes beyond the representation of daily real life.
In the west, you have philosophies about ethics, about what is wrong and what is right to do, about how the world is working. It's a very action-oriented thought pattern, which is also true for our founding religions, judaism and christianism, which are very action-oriented. You have to DO well in this life to succeed, you are performing something, rather than just being a contemplative part of it like in Asia. Therefore, our media are based in a stronger reality, because they require us to feel involved, to judge it and think what we would have done in a similar situation.
>I've always been into Western RPGs, and that's what we make. I've never been into Japanese RPGs because I want to roam, and traditionally they don't let you do that. I find that in Japanese art, and science fiction and fantasy, that it's super fantastical. In Western stuff, it tries to get more realistic, as much as it can for what it is. So like, we'll approach it like- this is fantasy with elves, and swords, and dragons, but it has to feel real, like this could happen, or did happen, even with Mass Effect and the way it approaches science fiction. But when you see the Japanese ones, it's crazy on another level...like that looks cool, but that's nuts, it's really high fantasy, it's really crazy science fiction...and then the earth eats itself...and then why are there nukes, and...I have trouble with my father and mother. I don't get into that stuff, I think because I can't wrap my hands around it, so it doesn't suspend my disbelief in the way like- sort of like Red Dead, where immediately you think this is all real, I'm here, I'm doing this, and these are real places in the West even though they're made up.
>>276544610 Well I have no problem immersing myself in JRPGs, so I'm not understanding the issue.
> it's really crazy science fiction...and then the earth eats itself...and then why are there nukes, and...I have trouble with my father and mother.
This sounds more like a stereotype and an exaggeration than anything that actually happens in a game. I can't say he has much experience in JRPGs.Also considering he's pictured with that piece of shit Skyrim and cites Mass Effect as something good, I'm not willing to assume his taste is any good.
>>276544820 I don't understand how you could really be immersed either. Maybe it has to do with being an auditive or a visual person. I'm a visual and the artstyle is usually enough to turn me off. It never feels like I'm there, but always like I am watching something.
I typically prefer JRPGs as a genre, because open-world WRPGs begin to feel the same after a while.
It's like... Yeah, Skyrim was fantastic, but all the plotlines are shallow and not really interconnected. Once I become the defacto leader of the Dark Brotherhood, that's it. It's done and finished with. Future main plot points in the game will not involve any of my current followers in the slightest.
Not only that, but while these plotlines can seem full and interesting, it gets quite silly when I'm the Werewolf Dovahkin who is also the leader of the Dark Brotherhood, the College of Winterhold, and the Thieves Guild.
It robs the quests of a lot of their weight. Also, a lot of WRPGs lack unique characters, which is a big problem. Stuff like Skyrim and Mass Effect generally relies on slider-generated models rather than uniquely crafted NPCs, which makes everyone look rather samey.
WRPGs generally sacrifice character depth for breadth of experience, and I can't say I'm a fan.
>>276543208 >And the world are always filled with so many original shit that in the end everything is so alien, I fail to care about any of it. There is no immersion, because everything is so chaotic. Things happen, but they may as well not be happening, wouldn't make a difference, the world would still be this unexplained mess with no foundation or knowledgeable cause as to why shit it is this way. Sounds like a perfect description of FFXIII. That's the only JRPG I have played that really fits that description.
>>276544562 And let's face it. Atlus knows how to make a Persona game, and unlike Square-Enix they're not in the habit of fucking with the core formula for a series unless they directly call it a spinoff.
Persona 5 is going to be a Persona 3/4-style game in HD, which I think most Persona fans will be perfectly fine with.
>>276545250 >It robs the quests of a lot of their weight. Also, a lot of WRPGs lack unique characters, which is a big problem. Stuff like Skyrim and Mass Effect generally relies on slider-generated models rather than uniquely crafted NPCs, which makes everyone look rather samey. Except that's not true at all. Mass Effect has a lot of good characters, as do games like Skyrim and other WRPGs. Don't talk shit about games you never played.
>>276540913 There is just nothing appealing in japanese games, to me. It's not that I hate Japan or Japanese people or anything, there' just absolutely -nothing- compelling about it whatsoever. It's the same with anime. I can't even begin to get into it at all.
>>276545901 I dont remember the last time I played a jrpg that didnt have an anime tier plot (99,9% of all anime have utter and total shit tier story with nothing to offer). Not even going to pretend that most wrpg have a good story but fuck at least they try to some degree.
>>276545572 I've certainly played Skyrim and Mass Effect. While Astrid and the rest of the members in the Dark Brotherhood questline are interesting, they're generated from generic models and the story does literally nothing with the survivors once you push through the core bits.
Hell, the marriage system in Skyrim is an awkward joke, as bad as the one in Fable II.
Also note I said NPCs, dumbfuck. Outside of party members, main antagonists, and one or two other important characters this is very much true for Mass Effect.
If you put fifty important NPCs side by side anyone but the most hardcore Mass Effect fan would have serious trouble remembering who was who, or even whether or not they're an ally, third party, or temporary antagonist.
>>276546135 Well that would be easy. For JRPGs you could blame all the frivolous and futile accessories they carry on their outfit, which in some case could hinder their survival. Also their edgy/emo/over-excited smug in some situations.
Then you would say that turn-based and tactical gameplay isn't intuitive, doesn't grasp the excitement of real action.
And for the future you'd say that despite decades of games, they are still lost in their unrelatable fantasies that completly ignore physics of our world and lose all taste in doing so.
>>276546020 >Like that one guy who gave you that one quest to find that thing in the draugr filled cave? Memorable times. Of course, it has no memorable characters at all, like Ulfric, or any of the Daedric Gods.
>>276546212 >>Also note I said NPCs, dumbfuck. Outside of party members, main antagonists, and one or two other important characters this is very much true for Mass Effect. Garus, Wrex, Ashley, Morden, Tali, Liara, should I continue or do you have the point? Because I can continue, the characters were the best thing the game had going for it other than the lore in one.
And any lover of JRPGs can not say anything about fucking sameface generic character models.
>>276546609 Reading serious replies from both sides will give you an idea. None is really better than the other, it's just different genres with different goals, that portray different themes and different dilemmas.
I'm still not all that convinced set characters are better than player created ones, I'd rather play as my own Arisen, Chosen Undead, or Grey Warden than play some character like Tidus, Yu Narukami or Geralt. They just break my immersion when they speak, or act differently than how I'm playing them.
Not really. its only hard if the only JRPG you know is Final Fantasy.
As much as people love to mock Akira Toriyama, he does have toned down designs that are rooted more in traditional western CRPGs than effeminate JRPGs. And there's plenty of other JRPG series that buck the Nomura trend as well.
Saying all JRPGs have a typical look is like saying all WRPGs star a muscle bound neckbeard. Just because a few Bioware games do.
>>276547178 >that are rooted more in traditional western CRPGs than effeminate JRPGs Well, it seems 90s Japan wasn't still drowning in this effiminate teenager trend there is today. Very old JRPGs tend to be closer to old CRPGs, both in their mechanics and artstyles. iirc, FF1 is borderline tolkien fantasy. The first Dragon Quest too is close to the west too.
They are stuck with emo teens, and we're stuck with SJWs. RPG is ruined.
>>276546990 I sort of get that, but it comes back to the depth vs breadth thing I mentioned up above.
A typically WRPG can allow you to roam and tackle things however you like, which is great. But because it's allowing you to tackle anything and explore everything, they can't make huge, elaborate plots about the characters you decide to care about.
That was actually what caused me to finally drop Skyrim, truth be told: I had far more interest in developing the Dark Brotherhood than being the stupid Dovahkin and fighting dragons, which was not the game offered to me. It pretended to, and let me explore the thought a little bit, but in the end it was a little side show.
Compare that to a JRPG, where typically you only get a set main character and a core group of supporting characters. Because the writer knows how the characters will act without input from the player, they can focus on pushing deep content.
They don't have to focus on telling a story with any characters the player might have on hand, they can guarantee that Characters X, Y, and Z will be in the party. Rather than telling the story of a single, depthless main character, the writer can focus on a core group of people and the drama therein.
Writers in a JRPG-style game can offer deeper plots, because they don't have to worry about the player fucking off to another town and ignoring everything else. That other town ain't got shit to do but buy some swords.
Dragon Quest VIII (the one in the image) came out in 2004. At the height of the phase when Japan was jumping on JPOP effeminate boys. And Dragon Quest is still going strong with more toned down designs (except maybe in DQ Monsters Joker).
The point is, there's many different styles. Not just one overused style. Heck, people still refuse to believe Demon/Dark Souls is made in Japan, because of how 'western' looking it is. And the hero of Valkyria Chronicles is downright average compared to most. A very refreshing take on the male main character in a genre full of extremes.
>>276547420 It all depends on what you consider generic. Most of the time, the typical WRPG protagonist will be a stoical male, borderline stupid at times as he is fighting with terrible odds against him, but he doesn't care, he march forward and do everything he can to make things right. Now with modern RPGs, which I haven't played much, it seems a tiny bit different, where RPGs are now about our modern issues like equality as well as bravery and heroism like they always were before.
If you consider this generic, then yeah, it'll be hard to find anything else.
>every western character is unshaven >people in American sports are on a huge beard phase >all the idiots in media are growing out their facial hair but not in a clean way >every attention whore online is sporting the disheveled look
Its like we're back in 1975. This is actually the most disgusting thing I can say my country is doing.
>>276547714 That just doesn't appeal to me though, you as the player are being told a story whereas with a player generated character you're experiencing the story. There's less disconnect between you and the character if your character cannot act without your input, sure the story may have depth and complexity but they can also become convoluted. Like DQ9, the story was simple but touching, moving.
Final Fantasy was a system seller for 2 gens. And as this thread proves, the vast majority of people think all JRPGs = Final Fantasy. Hell, even this fag >>276544190 thinks all JRPGs are Final Fantasy.
The other issue with JRPGs is, only a handful of series get mass marketing outside Japan. Namely Pokemon and Final Fantasy. So of course JRPGs as a whole don't seem popular. Its like trying to compare an anime to a heavily advertised Pixar movie.
>>276548705 While I sort of see where you're coming from, I tend to look at it from the opposite end. Because the main character in many WRPGs tends to have to be flat and mutable, it robs the stories of their gravitas for me.
When, say, Lydia dies alongside me in Skyrim, I don't really care. Sure it's sad I'm losing a friend and companion, but here basic roles as a whole were "Here's someone to follow you around," and that's about the extent of it.
For all her popularity, she's got no defining characteristics, outside of maybe hating dogs. That's all I remember of her. It's the same with a lot of WRPG side characters, for me. I honestly couldn't tell you much about any of followers in Skyrim.
WIthout the depth to the character, I lose focus. Sure, it's nice that I can do anything, but when the end result is that I'm meeting people who are functionally the same, in a town which looks different, but for which most of questlines can be resolved fairly simply and straight-forward, it limits my engagement with the story as a whole.
WRPGs tend to focus on the world and the main character, with other NPCs acting as filler. JRPGs tend to focus on the party as a whole, first and foremost, which lends them more personality and weight.
I care a lot more when a JRPG kills off a character than when a WRPG kills off one, which tells me the JRPG is doing things right for me.
>>276549560 >cherry picks Cloud/Lightnight Kek nice try, I think you might be blind. And this is even a bad example as they're all done in the same artstyle, were as their actual games have completely different artstyles.
Lightning was literally developed as a 'female version of Cloud'. And despite your fanboy level of defense, the vast majority of FF main characters have the same archetype. The loner who tries to hide from his role in life. Constantly questioning their existence and seeking a way to escape. Until the interference of others makes him/her 'wake up and fight'.
This has been going on since fucking Final Fantasy IV with Cecil. With only a few exceptions (namely FFV and XII).
>>276549560 >Implying that picture is even an accurate representation of Cloud Cloud is a goddamn action hero, he's a shitton more like Chrono or a teenage Vash the Stampede than the fucking emo cakeboy every teenage girl wants him to be
Lightning is more like a shitty imitation of Squall than anyone else
>Cloud is a goddamn action hero >most important scenes have him braindead in a wheelchair, getting multiple mind melds from Jenova, questioning his existence in the fetal position while talking to Tifa about his childhood or crying over Aeris' death
>no one understands that role playing is telling a story through gameplay >they think it's a bunch of dialogue choices >or they think it's playing a predefined character like JRPGs >IT HAZ STATS ITS RPG
>>276550218 >Lightning was literally developed as a 'female version of Cloud' And you stated all the FF characters looked the same. I'm just calling you out for cherry picking Cloud and Lightning, and everyone knows that tramp was a rip off of Cloud.
You're using 2 protags out of a series with 13+ (not even counting the Tactics games here) that were purposely and retardly made to look the same to base your 'facts' off.
>And despite your fanboy level of defense Mate I'm just putting you straight here, you literally were cherry picking.
>the vast majority of FF main characters have the same archetype. This is the JRPG genre as a whole, it's cliche'd archetypes: the genre.
>The loner who tries to hide from his role in life. Constantly questioning their existence and seeking a way to escape
Alight now you're just showing you haven't actually played much of the series.
FF1: non character really. FF2: haven't played so can't judge. FF3: happy go lucky kids on an adventure. FF4: dark knight who goes on a path to become a paladin of the light and right his wrongs and protect everyone around him. FF5: happy go lucky dudebro who's surrounded by bitches and doesn't take any shit while being a joyous motherfucker. FF6: doesn't really have a main character, but if you're going off Terra then it's pretty close to your diagnosis. FF7: Hardass motherfucker that doesn't take shit, then turns depressed for literally 30 in game minutes and then becomes a happy motherfucker on a mission to wreck some ass, protect his bros and commence the mosey. FF8: close to your diagnosis, but more of a general asshole who just doesn't wan't to be fucking annoyed. FF9: pretty close to Bartz, happy guy who likes lots of ass. FF10: autism. FF12: cancer. FF13: aids.
> it actually makes sense unlike some other FF game I can think of
You mean all of them? And trust me, FFXV will have the typical 'plot twist' that makes the first half the game totally irrlevant. FFXV will be no exception to the typical FF formula. Especially with Nomura 'Endless Kingdom Hearts' Tetsuya in the lead. It'll probably also have two open ended sequels just like FFXIII did.
>FF4: dark knight who goes on a path to become a paladin of the light and right his wrongs and protect everyone around him. And ends up being so indecisive that he sits there and watches 3/4 his team die. Protecting his life so he can 'go on and fight'. Not to mention being the poster child for loner.
>FF5: happy go lucky dudebro who's surrounded by bitches and doesn't take any shit while being a joyous motherfucker. I already said FFV was an exception.
>FF6: doesn't really have a main character, but if you're going off Terra then it's pretty close to your diagnosis. Exactly. I personally think Celes is the main character, but Square just keeps insisting it is Terra. A girl who's not even in half the game because of her inaction. And full on runs away from her role, literally.
>FF7: Hardass motherfucker that doesn't take shit, then turns depressed for literally 30 in game minutes and then becomes a happy motherfucker on a mission to wreck some ass, protect his bros and commence the mosey. Now who hasn't played the FF games? Your description covers thefirst 5 hours of the first disk, completely ignoring all the stuff I mentioned in my previous post. You know...the actual important parts of the story. Since Midgar is pretty much made irrelevant as soon as they leave.
>FF8: close to your diagnosis, but more of a general asshole who just doesn't wan't to be fucking annoyed. So...why are we arguing if its close to my example?
>FF9: pretty close to Bartz, happy guy who likes lots of ass. Then halfway through the game he becomes just like Squall and Cloud.
>FF10: autism. This one is kind of off my example. He's indecisive, but not really a loner. So yeah, there's a third character that's not typical.
>>276550956 >>most important scenes have him braindead in a wheelchair, getting multiple mind melds from Jenova, questioning his existence in the fetal position while talking to Tifa about his childhood or crying over Aeris' death You realise the wheelchair segment lasted literally 30 minutes? After that was a normal happy guy who made his peace with his loss and moved on, not mopey in the slightest.
I swear you niggas need to reply that game, the characters were nothing like the piece of shit that is Advent Children. Cloud was closer to Bartz than he was Squall.
>>276540913 Typically I don't like either, but ultimately I prefer western RPGs, as they at least TRY to be like RPGs. JRPGs are straight up fucking turn-based strategy games and their art direction is usually awful.
>You realise the wheelchair segment lasted literally 30 minutes?
The duration means little. Its one of the most important parts of the game. The Orphenage scene in FFVIII is less than 30 minutes as well. But that doesn't stop people from using it as a reason for why all of FFVIII sucks.
The wheelchair stuff is one of the most important parts of the game. Because it develops both the story AND both Tifa and Cloud's characters. Sounds more like you're just choosing to ignore it because of how rediculous it is. And it breaks your image of the 'let's mosey' Cloud in a dress.
>>276540913 Jrpgs and Wrpgs at their peaks used to be equal if anything Wrpgs might've been slightly overall better. Now Jrpgs even in their shit state with few great titles still kick the living shit out of Wrpgs the most casual fucking genre that makes popcap games look like Quake.
>>276540913 I love both. Though Persona 4 Golden is my favourite game.
And the person who did that image is a faggot. Geralt is essentially a realist moralfag who's torn between past loyalties that understand that the world doesn't suck his dick because he's the main character.
>>276544190 >roam ffvii has it, pretty sure many of the other ff also has world roaming capabilities >elf, sword, dragon generic tolken myth #1023839020232-3 >muh realism >complain about scifi-fantasy being too fantastical kek and you call asians non-creative.
>>276548726 Probably because the brown haired, white guy stereotype is based on the most generic real life everyman look possible, while JRPG bishi characters are a unrealistic contrivance with personalities and looks that aren't normal or accepted in society.
You need to learn about silent protagonists. The entire point of them is the other characters do all the freaking out and obsessing over situations. While the silent protagonist is in a perpetual state of 'coolness'.
But even outside of silent protags, there's plenty of JRPGs that have realistic heroes who react to situations appropriately. Even in fantasy games.
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