Does Xenogears get better? I went into the game expecting something evangelion-like just with its focus put on philosophy not psychology. So far it's terrible dialogues, melodrama, no subtlety in characterization and bad writing in general. I just had to stop after the dialogue between Fei and the Doc and find out if this is how the game is in general.
It will never get better. It's just another stupid NGE clone in video game format.
Definitely nothing as good among jrpgs, they're pretty shitty in general. Maybe something like Planescape: Torment. Japs make great tv series, but they couldn't make a good story focused game if they tried. They should stick to Mario or stuff like Shadow of the Colossus.
Thing is Star Wars is basically a fantasy tale wrapped in a sci-fi setting. Everything I read about Xenogears indicated it's much more.
>translation was only done by one guy
How is this possible? There's even a dub. Even so, I thought it might be a problem with translation, but the problem seems to be with the characters and "moral dilemmas" they pose, I doubt translation could change the whole sense of it.
Xenogears is nothing like EVA, it saddens me to see people so uninformed that they keep saying that.
Read this. Details the entire trainwreck.
Skip to this part:
>Honeywood recalls in 8-4 Play’s podcast, 1-Up, in 2011, “It was the project from hell. Translators walked off it. One [reason] was that it was too technical… and….the other was the religious content. It was a game, where, at the end of the game you basically kill God. And – a secret thing – back then, they actually called it Yahweh.”
>[They] took every biblical reference they could and tried to twist it. One of the translators was a bit worried about this and was like 'I don't want to have fundamental Christians or other religious groups being upset and blowing up our office.' And I guess in the States, at that time, it was a concern. So I had two translators walk off it and I was stuck there by myself.
>HOw STUPID ARE YOU?!!!??!?!?
You're the stupid one. It's more Patlabor than NGE.
>As Soraya Saga has denied that Xenogears was influenced by Evangelion I will not regard it as having been an influence
Fei stops spending so much time bitching (this takes a while), though the game never eases up on the melodrama.
Basically the forest sequence fucking sucks, Fei bitches the whole time and Elly chews him out, things reach a better pace by the time you get to the desert town right after the forest.
Fei goes self-pitying shithead mode again a little further in after you meet the sand pirates and you get more gigantic monologues about how much he hates having to fight, and after that it's pretty smooth sailing.
>So far it's terrible dialogues, melodrama, no subtlety in characterization and bad writing in general
>I just had to stop after the dialogue between Fei and Doc
You've seen all of the first town in a 90's PS1 RPG
I really don't know what you were expecting
you DO remember the 22 episodes of evangelion that were just every day giant robot giant monster action, right?
>There’s no indication that Anno used, or was even familiar with the Enneagram of Personality though, since his characters tend to be more allegorical than what Takahashi and Soraya Saga portrays in their Xeno-verse (though they have also used characters for allegories and religious symbolism). However, it should be pointed out that even if Anno was familiar with the Ennea-types, Shinji is still a different personality type from Fei. So, regardless of how one twists and turns it, the comparison is never anything more than superficial.
Evangelion started airing like 2 months after development proper had started.
They had ironed out most of the story and character traits YEARS before that. Xenogears was a project that had been kicked around between a handful of people since 1992.
>Xenogears was a project that had been kicked around between a handful of people since 1992.
1994, not really kicked around, it was submitted as a proposal for FF7. Soraya Saga came up with the idea of a female AI being the birth of humanity on a planet, and Takahashi wrote it from there.
This. Evangelion was not the first time japs thought western religion was cool. They know fuck all about it, so naturally it fascinates them just to reference it.
>things reach a better pace by the time you get to the desert town right after the forest.
I'll trust you on that one. Drama isn't bad for me if the story is great.
I often find the lack of subtlety in characterization and establishing mood a problem in jrpgs honestly. But I didn't expect as much from FF or Persona titles as I did from Xenogears.
>what the fuck is Patlabor?
Is this bait?
>Evangelion is for many babby's first dramatic anime.
That might be true but it's still a great show. The more anime I've watched especially pre-90s mecha anime, the bigger my respect for it grew.
>>I often find the lack of subtlety in characterization and establishing mood a problem in jrpgs honestly.
You have to remember that you're reading a translation. Subtlety gets lost often, especially if the translator isn't very good (which they weren't in the 90s).
Seriously? Even without including the whole island and africa arc, Nadia isn't much more than a kids story. It's just quirky humor, silly characters and a plot relying practically entirely on circumstances. Eva wasn't even like that through the first half, when it was still "normal".
Putting that aside, there's not much I can do. I don't know japanese so it's either this or nothing. Does it mean I won't be able to enjoy the game in its translated version. Or maybe it does polish out a bit later on?
You have to just accept that you're going to be reading straightforward, often awkward dialogue with misused and overused punctuation. Try to get over it, because the story underneath it is worth experiencing.
Xenogears' translation is rough but at the end of the day it is not that subtle even in the original script. This is a game that has an event involving a "soylent system" that is exactly what you'd expect it to be. JRPGs aren't ever gonna be Shakespeare.
Takahashi and Soraya had been talking about the idea for some time before actually submitting it as an idea for FF7.
It's something I always forget about when I replay the game. I would almost want to say that rather than things polishing out, you rather get used to it? But I know I'm always struck with how obnoxious some characters (Fei being the prime offender) behave early in the game. So I feel like it must truly get better, otherwise I wouldn't be noticing that every time I replay it.
While it might be one of the best, that doesn't mean there aren't other anime that went off the deep end before NGE. Pic related, depressing shit.
NGE isn't about philosophy you fuckbag. Or psychology.
It's about Anno being high on his meds and taking the time to attack his demographic while he still can't walk a straight line.
I'm 24 but for some reason I have more nostalgia for early 2000 stuff like Kingdom Hearts. I don't really have that many memories of the time before then, I don't know why, it honestly worries me sometimes.
Sure, I loved both Angel's Egg and Evangelion. I actually like Angel's Egg more than the series, but I was impressed by EoE more than either of those. Also, Tenshi no Tamago was great in terms of visuals and symbolism but the characters were more tools for thematic exposition than anything else. That's why I think Evangelion has this more personal feeling to it, similarly to Utena, Lain or Kaiba for example.
Still that's not the point. Is there any jrpg that comes close to those?
Then start digging into the past. You're missing out.
Really? It was thoroughly enjoyable despite being a slight NGE/Battle Royale ripoff, and you can't deny the impact Yuno has had on the internet.
The anime was okay but I thought the manga was much better. The facial expressions in the manga are top-tier spook
>Wait, Fei. You ate that food. Consider that when you open the door.
Okay fags, post your top 3 anime of the past 5 years:
Girls und Panzer
Yuuki Yuuna wa Yuusha de Aru
YOU ARE THE DUMBEST HUMAN BEING IN ALL OF EXISTENCE. FUCKING TUMBLR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So does the story actually amount to anything or is it just entry level philosophy and religious references?
I despised Yuki even after his supposed "badass" turn. Yuno was entertaining at first, but just didn't really do it for as the series went on.
I was much more interested in the side characters and felt the ending was undeserved and unappealing.
Dragon Quest V on NDS, experience a JRPG from childhood to adulthood to fatherhood
and you're not even the hero.
Tactics Ogre series.
Front Mission series, especially the first one.
Saga Frontier 2.
The story gets plenty interesting. I consider it one of the better in video games despite being convoluted as shit, but yes, know what you are getting into. The game is only anime deep. It is not really deep.
Man that start of Nadia is hilarious when you think about it as Anno trying to suck up to Miyazaki.
LOOK SEMPAI! I CAN DRAW PLANES TOOOOO..
I think it's funny that there's actually an explicit reason given in game later on as to why Fei seems like a melodramatic shitheel for a while.
The operating personality is like three years old. Grahf used Id like a god-powered nuke from when the personalities split, up to when Kahn drops him off at Lahan before the game starts, and the Fei we play as is like an autistic toddler without any tools to deal with people or his problems.
Well the soul series made by Quintet was heavy into Buddhism and other weird religious shit.
Soul Blazer was about god fighting the devil and you his angel killing shit and bringing back souls from the brink of oblivion.
Illusion of Time/Gaia was about that world reincarnated into a new face and the horrors of life imposed by those with power and influence. Ends with you going to the top of the tower babel to speak with the fallen souls of the dead and in turn become a horror yourself to fight evil incarnate which then ends with you and the girl you love dying and being reincarnated.
Finally Terranigma deals with the idea of reincarnation and the duality of souls being both capable of good and evil seeing as evil itself literally has a mirror image of the world and seeks to constantly destroy the other world. Much like IoT/G you face the devil and incarnation of pure evil after achieving enlightenment and purging the evil of your own soul and killing it only to be killed in the other world because you are of it but are allowed to be reincarnated into the pure world as a bird.
All of quintets games where a mish mash of religion and rather dark tones but great games.
God that movie had fucking beautiful hair.
He hates escapists, not Otaku. Nigga he fucking Otaku as shit and defends them all the time. He just doesn't like people shying away from the world and not trying anything new.
You mean anime in particular and maybe Wes Anderson and Robert Williams.
I love eva dude but don't be an EVAgeeks tier evafag.
Thanks a lot, but are there games that convey less transcendental themes? Evangelion, Lain or Utena had some out of this world aesthetics, but those were just narration tools. In truth they spoke about escapism, cycles of abuse and the impact of technology on modern society. Stuff that everyone can relate to, unlike religious themes.
Yeah well what are you gonna do. Crazy niggas married and rich now.
Read the center few paragraphs.
Really? I kinda loved Yukki. He was definitely Shinji-inspired by being so sweet and sad. I also loved how much he loved his parents even though how fucked they were and even when his dad kills his mom. He was just tortured all around.
Basically more anime tv series produced for adult audiences. Evangelion was at first a shounen for then it was moved to a time more accessible to adult audiences and the ratings turned out to be much bigger. Before only movies and OVA were directed at adults, and they were very often just erotica gore-fests (stuff like Genocyber, Wicked City). Basically the fans of anime from the 80s and 70s grew up and wanted more anime, but it had to be a little bit different. That's why the second half of the 90s had lots of darker tv series like Utena and Lain, and in the 2000s it was normal to have seinen tv series or just more mature, dark shows. Not to mention, producers started adapting one-cour or two-cour formats for shows more often and expected consistency rather than shows with lots of filler or just being pro-longed ad infinitum.
Well the things I told you are hidden themes they are not chucked in your face, the games are set in different ways.
Soul Blazer a small area on the world in a medieval time.
Illusion of Time/Gaia is on earth but the planet has been changed to a different place IE-small areas are moved around or changed slightly.
Terranigma takes places in 2 world and the 1st part of the game deals with resurrecting earth and returning the continent, then you must bring back what makes the planet work, the plants, the birds, the animals and finally you bring back humanity after a brutal trek up mt Everest.
The game also had dark themes such as child rape, matricide, patricide, abuse of power, rampant murder, slavery, child slave labour, sacrifice, and a lack of the Hollywood happy endings.
>Sweary: "I have never seen Twin Peaks."
The hell he hasn't.
It was Toyotomi that hated Christians since he had bad dealing with the portugese who bought slaves from Kyushu from the clans there.
He even had a few clans wiped out hence why the Hosokawa clan joined the Tokugawa armies since the clan leaders wife was killed for being a Christian.
After the war Tokugawa's son closed of the country until the Meiji era when the Emperor wanted trade and westernisation much like china.
Since we're on a video games board, let me use video games as an example.
Look at the plot complexity of story based Japanese games (mostly RPGs) in the pre-NGE era.
Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Breath of Fire, Tales, Chrono Trigger, Mana, Lufia, ect, all have straight forward and easy to digest plots.
Even the few series with higher order plots, like Tactics Orge/Ogre Battle have their stories entirely based in politics.
Now look at the story based games in the same genre released after Evangelion, especially the ones that Square produced.
FF7 and 8, Chrono Cross, and Xenogears are all significantly more difficult to understand.
Their plots are presented to the players in odd manners with purposeful obfuscation of information.
Basically, producers of other works "couldn't see the forest for the trees" so to speak when it came to the success of NGE and ended up presenting stories in a similar fashion instead of producing stories with a similar message.
It's totally true though. It's a modern industrialized nation, it really isn't that bad. The decline in population is, curiously, a simple result of people choosing not to reproduce, not conditions being so bad that they COULDN'T sustain or grow their population
I wonder how well a KOTOR/Mass Effect style RPG game would work with completely disfunctional party members.
Could it be pulled off? People didn't like Carth Onasi getting so bitchy and it'd be hard to show characters properly disfunctional without grinding the plot to a halt.
Kotor 2 could've been it in a way.
The plot of Eva was allways secondary to the characters, the only reason it didn't fall apart is that they made sure to clearly define universe rules to extrapolate character motivations and events from in the tail end of the series.
I deny that with the showing of a few rare games that did have a plot about interesting things that are beyond the simple you are the chosen one.
The Quintet soul series, Shadowrun, Shining Force (To an small extent), Phantasy Star (Maybe depends on which one), Lufia 1 (The plot twist mainly), RoboTREK (Its about science!).
Then you have the games you mentioned but most do boil down to a basic plot with big plot twists like FF7 and 8, 7's twist is you are the bad guy for the 1st 2 discs, 8 is...Well shit I still don't know what the fuck happened in that game.
So did that mean people we just playing to stupid people wanting easy to play games?, probably since look at the games now they have bare boned plots.
If you see this post while scrolling page 1, you have been visited by the HAPPY MASKED SEEKER OF POWER!
Unlimited divine power will come to you, but only if you post GLORY TO THE MOTHER OF DESTRUCTION in this thread.
We're not talking about just people. We're talking about life. All living things want to live. It's basic instinct, the reason why a fish that's still alive doesn't hang limp in the jaws of a bear but struggles to escape.
The basic instinct related to reproduction is to fuck, not many people feel an instinctual need to have children, especially men. Natural selection worked for millions of years to adapt our brains to function in a way that would most likely lead to successful reproduction... in a competitive, hand to mouth, wilderness existence before culture or language or living past your 30s. Adaptation has had no time to catch up with civilization.
This a shit ton.
>Allows you to eat people and says nothing
>Doesn't take out his real weapon till the last 3/4 of the game and his dps goes through the roof
>Was actually a spy all along and let them capture you and mind fuck you a lot
>Never told you that you where ID
Bullshit, see the "beautiful people" in Calhoun Universe 25 experiment.
Other species (in this case mice) will present similar non reproductive behavior in a similar environment. There is no sign that is is so much a individual problem as a structural one.
Quick quiz for you guys who think the story in FF7 was simple.
What parts of Cloud's past did he actual experience and what parts did he just appropriate from Zach?
What events in the story are caused by Sephiroth? What events are caused by Jenova? What events are caused by members of the reunion?
Anon, to live is to change. People adapt everyday. It's a gradual as well as a sudden kind of thing.
It's not merely about reproduction. Reproduction is merely a part of the will to survive. If it lives, it wants to continue living.
>There is no sign that is is so much a individual problem as a structural one.
When you can talk to the mice about their problems, then maybe we'll have evidence. Until then, you're right about it being structural.
Final Fantasy 8 seemed to me like Squaresoft seemed to know what kind of impact FF7 would make in terms of character popularity, so they created Squall as a mockery of emo teens.
Everything in his past was a lie and Zack's memories from Crisis Core.
The soldier in the uniform who is revealed later to be cloud was him but he never killed Sephiroth and it was Zack who killed him, and Angeal and Genesis.
Clouds instant attraction to Aeris was just Zacks memories.
Cloud from the beginning of the game is still confused from Zacks memories and the influence of Sephiroth acting through the jenova cells he was infused with and survived along with Zack.
The entire 2 first discs are him being a robot for Sephiroth to get the black material.
After the influence ends Cloud reverts to what he really is a brain dead vegetable from the shinra experiments and his mind broken by Sephiroth and Zack.
People aren't a hive mind.
People don't think as a society.
People think as themselves, and they may align with fellows, have their opinions sway with a population. But they are individuals.
Its been an years since I've played FFVII, but just off the top of my head;
Tried to get into and failed SOLDIER, became a masked grunt.
He WAS on the mission to Nibelhelm as a masked up grunt with car sickness.
I think Cloud really did visit his mother.
Zack and Sephiroth were the ones in the reactor room when Sephiroth had the initial freakout.
Zack is the one who visited Sephiroth in the library when Sephiroth storms out.
Zack tried to fight Sephiroth in the reactor and was defeated.
Cloud was the one who snuck up on Sephiroth and got him.
Then the whole toss Sephiroth into the reactor bit and Hojo research plays out.
To a sapient being, children are not considered oneself. The desire to protect our offspring is not out of a simple desire to "live". That more and more people are choosing not to have kids is because they simply want to live for themselves, not not live at all.
The only coherent experience you'll get is from playing it and reading Perfect Works. In Japanese.
There's so much misinformation spread about the Xeno series, even very basic shit like how many games were planned (it's 3, not 6)
He was so shit at Drakengard that he claimed it's impossible to get Ending C before Ending B when he just couldn't git gud.
I got it my first try and that unfunny scotscuck who was doing an LP couldn't do it with literal months of prep. Something SJW is even worse than /v/ at video games.
Jesus fuck. A ton my shock after seeing EoE was how much shit from my childhood and teens had bits of EVA in it.
Plus having browsed this site for fucking years without watching it, with spoilers literally in the banners.
What with OOT being developed around the same time EoE comes out, MM feels like a response to that cultural phenomenon. Majora's mask feels similarly bleak, but happy in the manic-hiding something away kind of way. Then there's being unable to watch the moon crash without hearing Komm Susser Todd.
Little things like the tree with all the masked kids playing around it, while Majora's sitting in Shinji-fetal position under it, all alone.
Other things obviously did all this shit before, and they could have been drawing from that, but just some bits of tone that MM had seem really similar to the introspective scenes.
I just love the Asuka Mindrape episode in a similar sense, so well done.
For example, imagine just how many works Rei has appeared in.
I didn't mean like EVA INVENTED SUFFERING AND SHIT. God I'm not that retarded.
Fuck that. That's more Lynchian level kind of shit anyways.
I'm painting broad BROAD BROAD fucking strokes here.
I'm willing to give Kojima the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his inspirations. Besides, the man's a westaboo who bases everything he likes off the old Escape from New York movie.
Thats general tropes.
didn't invent that shit, other than Rei, but it probably helped popularize the SHITTTT out of it.
Whenever I try to make a mention that Eva might have touch a game in some way, retards jump down my throat thinking I'm saying it invented that shit, like here: >>284140409
I never said they fucking threw Rei into goddamn Zelda.
Fuck No, I'm saying that its immense popularity probably brought some similar elements onto the table into other works. Some small elements, tone, etc.
Still, there is a point that post makes with that Majora mention.
I mean, it wasn't even a year, and yet they had created such a tonally mature game out of freaking nowhere. It's bound to raise eyebrows.
Also, literally who is Dorothy wayneright?
Android girl from Big O with similar character conflicts as rei has. Not exactly the same, but similar. Also has same completely blank face on most of the time.
I wouldn't be surprised if time constraints made them look in Anno's depression bound direction. I don't know, but I'm sure someone could misconstrue that as me saying that Evangelion literally invented moons falling on the earth.
>I'm sure someone could misconstrue that as me saying that Evangelion literally invented moons falling on the earth.
whoever could think that would probably have to be literally the worst weeaboo to ever exist.
>useless stoner who lays in bed smoking and jerking off to his waifu all day erry day
>his behavior isolated him from everyone around him, even the girl who loved him
>everytime he's on the brink of self awareness and breaking out of his self-destructive cycle, he just rolls over and has another fap
How on earth can you misconstrue that as being supportive of otaku?
I'm saying that these people only look at things in the "what did what first" instead of the way stuff usually is which is an amorphous blob of inspiration and plagiarism.
The only unique "symbols" in eva are the shot of Shinji's hand in relation with his ego, Strangling/hanging, Asuka's doll wit they way she and others use other people selfishly, and Gendo's glasses in relation to Rei's acceptance of him.
Anything else in the fucking show could be reappropriated from other sources, but if something is inspired by eva itself, or takes "bits", then eva is what inspired these other people.
the N64 game that had all the secret documents clarifying the background of the setting, like who made ADAM and Lilith, what their purpose is, and what the purpose of the Lancea Longinus is
>So far it's terrible dialogues, melodrama, no subtlety in characterization and bad writing in general.
So much this. I gave up playing because the dialog felt like it was written by someone still in middle school.
This game is probably more overrated than Halo or TWEWY. Its a damn shame its more popular than the entirety of Xenosaga, which is superior is every way, at least Xenosaga III is. Especially the writing.
we've already ended this discussion. Look at the escapism pic post.
>Gendo's glasses in relation to Rei's acceptance of him.
ohmygod all those references of Childhood's End.....Maybe i never connected it before because of the english translation but jesus christ now a LOT of Xenogears inspriation makes sense to me. that was an incredible fucking book and I can totally see all its influences in Xenogears now.
>She cherishes them because they represent Gendo risking his life to safe hers, something no one else has done
>Before the fight against Remiel, she sees Shinji wearing them
>Afterwards, Shinji re-enacts Gendo's saving her. There are now two people she sees as willing to risk their life for her
>From that point on she looks to Gendo's glasses whenever she's having doubts about where how loyalties lie
>Meanwhile, she starts to realize Gendo only values her as a tool
>When Rei III decides to reject Gendo in favor of Shinji, she crushes Gendo's glasses in her hand
Rei's acceptance of Gendo's love is symbolized by those glasses. She gets on with this one memory of him saving her, one single instance of him doing something fatherly, but as the series goes on, its shown that at least from her perspective as "replacable," Gendo's feelings may only be out of relation to Yui, or his plans for the Instrumentality project.
Immediately before that she's either recovering memories or at least feelings from 2.
Taking Gendo's arm with her was just her way of betraying him and (potentially at that point) putting Shinji in the pilot seat of Instrumentality. Also Gendo's arm had Adam's embryo implanted in it which was necessary to start the whole process.
'activating' a new clone involves removing the soul from one body and putting it into the other. While the process causes a lot of memory loss, there's still some retention. It's implied that looking at the glasses allowed her to remember most of the important stuff, since she's not sure what to make of them at first.
She needed to take ADAM from Gendo's body before she could go and become a god. She'd already decided Shinji was more important than Gendo beforehand.
>Doesn't she have no memories of Shinji?
it would appear in the eva universe memories are associated with souls so since the same soul is transferred between all the Rei bodies she would retain her memories
>which was necessary to start the whole process.
If it was, it certainly took its sweet time. Literally nothing changed in that scene between the half hour or so it took to get back to that scene.
Forgot to add that, though it doesn't say explicitly, he implanted Adam's embyro in his hand likely to hid it from Seele.
Why else would he be wearing gloves all the time? Other than being a stylish motherfucker.
I mean it was probably just artistic license. The shit going on at the surface and the shit going on in terminal dogma are probably meant to be happening more or less at the same time.
Remember this is the same show where 'The EVA's internal battery only lasts five minutes!' means it lasts for as long or short as the plot demands.
But then, why am I thinking when a professional military is using "scorched earth" tactics on a bunch of scientists, and a death cult believes humanity will evolve from being obliterated.