>>285669573 Because the developers (Druckman) view players as unworthy to solve the dilemma for themselves and force their own choice down the throats, despite the player earning right for that choice for himself by playing the entire game.
Joel did nothing wrong. The ending was flawless. Kudos.
I know people on here are going to be like "bleh it was so predictable", but how many times in the last 5 or 10 years have you seen games or movies deviate from the predictable ending for some shock twist, to the point where the twist is predictable.
>>285670039 >themselves You don't get a choice, you are playing as a person whose character and backstory is fully established. This was Joel's story, not one you influence. >>285670190 The recorders literally state Ellie is the first one the Firefly doctors have seen that is immune.
It wouldn't work because not only was most of the Fireflies wiped out in the moving across the country, but a distribution and production line would be impossible and they honestly seem like some attention whores if the doctors wouldn't straight up team up with the military/government to do it.
Another problem arises is that only a few hours after getting her and doing tests, they decide to chop her up. Like, its been 20 years surely you can fucking wait a few more weeks.
>>285670621 >you are playing as a person whose character and backstory is fully established. It's a fucking video game, if I play as character I should have ability to alter his decisions too. If I wanted to just press some buttons for fun I have mobas and fighting games which are 10 better for that than any single-player will ever be. If I wanted to passively watch "a story" I have movies which are 10 times better for that than any video games will ever be.
>ending is some multiple-choice question with no context that gets dumped in the player's lap >/v/ bitches
>ending is a thematic climax of the characters you have watched develop throughout the game, with the consequences of their decisions affecting not only what happens but their relationships to each other >/v/ bitches
>>285670797 I don't think "the canon" is relevant because it's mostly the unfortunate consequence of having to do sequels. >>285670890 Games that don't need pseudo RPG decisions in 2015 should better be online and have amazing gameplay.
>>285670039 >player earning the rights to choice >bad because of lack of choice
since when do all games need fucking choice? jesus, you cant be this jaded right? how does a player EARN the right to have a choice in a game where there arent supposed to be any choices? what the fuck? this is entitlement if i've ever seen it.
>>285671692 It's 2015 year dude. If I needed pure gameplay there are online games for that. For single player game, I expect the amalgam of interactive narrative/gameplay experience. And that's not out of this world demand, it was made 20 years ago already. MGS did that. Mass Effect did that. Dragon Age did that. Even Infamous did that to certain degree.
>>285671857 Dude I understand you never watched anything but anime and transformer movies so LoU blew your mind. I watched some real movies so video games attempts at being "deep" are laughable for me. At least explore the unique opportunities of the media instead of thinking you can get close to where even Kubrick got.
i almost cried. i thought it was a really good ending. i didn't expect the cure to involve killing ellie and so then to see joel make that final choice and then to finally lie to ellie at the end to save her...that was beautiful. And just the whole game with how he gradually opened up to her, it was really subtle and well done, a really well written game, which is saying a lot because most game writing is horse shit.
Didn't really care either way. Joel is just some crazy guy who misses his daughter. But the other side were just idiots who were going to fuck up their chance at a cure because "So what if she dies, we MIGHT make a cure!" because that's fucking real intelligent. What are those niggas even gonna do with a fucking vaccine? Inject a handful of survivors at a base or two? Because that sure as hell ain't gonna help you not get ripped apart by mushroomen.
Well, there ya go. There are plenty of fucking games out there that give you the choice you want. You cant whine and force game devs to give you arbitrary choice even if they think their game doesn't call for it. Otherwise, everything would be a Telltale game.
>>285672752 What I don't get is Joel is knocked out in the tunnel and when he wakes up they're already prepping Ellie for surgery. How long was he out? A few hours at most? They get a hold of Ellie and decide they should perform a fatal surgery on her that fucking fast? They don't need to run some tests or something?
I agree, fantastic way to handle it. One of the few games in recent years I was utterly satisfied with the ending.
I still need to play on survivor, but I think those two bloaters in the same place is meant to be the big boss. Kind of easy when you can jump on that bus and hurl molatovs at them. Still, takes a good deal of planning to take out the mass amount of clickers and shit around them. A super bloater might have been nice or something, but imagine a player who shows up with no molatovs. He would literally not be able to finish the game.
I know that's the player's fault because the game emphasizes conservation, but the player has to have a way to succeed, especially since there is no backtracking, even with saves.
>>285670476 The point was that Joel is a crazy selfish asshole. It's an appropriate ending, but only delusional fags try to justify Joel's actions as positive. Obviously there wasn't a guarantee that they'd find a cure, but it'd be a step in the right direction.
The fact that a lot of people even contemplate that Joel was in the "wrong" in any way whatsoever makes me lose a little more hope in mankind. The game presents you more than enough evidence to make the proper judgment call that the cure was a scam, without the audio logs even.
Keep in mind with current technology, an established framework, a real government, and infrastructure to support research:
We have not made a "cure" or a vaccine for cancer or any significantly fatal disease since Polio (1952)
Medical progress has basically been stalled.
We have barely improved 5-year survival rates for many forms of cancer. They are up only 50% since 1960s. And most of that is just from detecting it earlier, not because our mid/late stage treatments are improved. http://www.cancer.org/cancer/news/cancer-death-rate-steadily-declining (the title sounds more positive than the results).
So, yeah, my faith in a team of just a few people to find some miracle cure, using samples they already have, without any real infrastructure... not high.
Then there's the question of distribution. The Fireflies can barely control anything. Odds of them actually distributing anything they make is extremely low. There's also a lot of talk about how they want to restore government, but there's no evidence that they have an executive, judicial, or legislative branch, and they seem to operate basically along military lines. They have zero respect for any kind of real civil rights, no procedures governing themselves, and are really just a less organized version of the military.
The only people with a real plan are those who are looking at creating sustainable communities. I don't mean that in the hippie sense of "green" but in the "a society that has the foundations to reproduce/continue life" sense.
Joel's choice was the best choice available and of course Ellie would have thrown herself to her death, due to survivors guilt and the illusion that she could sacrifice herself for some cause. It's the role of a parent to prevent those kinds of mistakes.
A cure for what? Humanity? There was no humanity. All Joel saw were rapists, murderers, looters, and cannibals. What choice did he have?
a.) Save the only thing in his life that has brought him human joy in 20 years or b.) Find a cure for the literal hell on earth? A cure that might not even work. A cure that might get hoarded by the fireflies anyway (a group who fucked him in the ass).
>>285673524 You misunderstand. The common ideology with these kind of mass survival games is that "Any sacrifice that could be for the 'Greater Good' is a sacrifice worth making."
In general, we'd be asked that Sacrificing ellie for a chance a cure would be, by itself, a worthy and noble goal. Joel does that far more interesting in that he rather blatantly would rather burn the world down around his ears than let them carve up his surrogate daughter for a one-in-a-million chance at saving the world.
That's a really brave thing to do with a video game story, as a lot of people would use that to paint Jole as the villain of the piece.
You know what really got me. The first time I checked Ellie's backpack when I played as her in Winter. She had mementos of everything that happened in the game up to that point and she comments on them. She even kept Sam's toy robot. It was a tidal wave of feels, and I wasn't ready for it.
>>285673852 >The common ideology with these kind of mass survival games is that "Any sacrifice that could be for the 'Greater Good' is a sacrifice worth making." I'm fairly certain that almost any game you can name with a sacrifice plot involves the character(s) up for sacrifice either a) trying to find a way around it, or b) actively fighting against it instead of graciously accepting it and that those calling for their sacrifice are more often than not the bad guys or misguided.
The only difference is that it doesn't often end in wholesale slaughter.
>>285673998 >Best portrayal of a gay guy ever in vidya.
I read the wiki once and it mentions a bunch of feminist and lgbt shit that I never considered, especially interesting was the idea that Bill was a gay hero. I thought that was fucking hilarious, the gay mag ellie finds just painted him as some lonely sad sack of shit degenerate, which he was. The idea that he is a gay hero is very funny to me.
>implying the agenda of world governments is to cure all cancers and not to prolong suffering to fuel whole industries which run on it >implying a few of mankind's best and brightest would not find a cure without government interference
Might I remind you that the real enemy of TLOU is the US military junta, destroying the only freedom movement left with the power to make a cure?
>>285674747 If the government wants a populace to power it's industry it would benefit from having a healthy populace. All that time and effort wasted on caring for the sick could be put to use elsewhere.
>that man alone on the boat who created a happy place >It`s all gone to shit now Shit, that hit me hard. And no offense, but I just cant see the shrooms being so awful. People are surviving, you see the infection, you move on. Perhaps if Ellie fucks someone and gets impregnated her child will be inmune too. The chances are pretty fucking big since it`s straight evolution.
The game is the end of modern civilization, not the end of human civilization. Humans were set back a few hundred years, but humanity will still move on in a brave new world. Of course, /v/ can't really conceptualize a post-apoc setting beyond life in DayZ.
No the point of that game was that every 'choice' you made ultimately led to an ultimate destiny of bullshit, and you were forced to eat this bullshit of destiny whether you liked it or not. Most people didn't even understand it was bullshit at the time they reached the ending, so they wanted to believe they reached some sort of spiritual epiphany where video games transcended literature.
The choice did matter. The choice meant something. But the fact is that something didn't make sense in the slightest. Its like you took a shower and then you walked out of the shower as a ninja turtle, and you just have to assume the shower water made you mutate without your knowledge. Its worse than a significant choice, its a lolrandumb choice.
That's completely subjective, though. In your situation, it was your choice to shower but the outcome was something you didn't intend for, therefore your choice didn't matter. Plus, what does lolrandumb mean? Is it because your a Ninja Turtle? Imagine a universe where that would be possible, wouldn't be an unfortunate burden rather than a joke?
The outcome did matter though because it made a lasting immutable impact. In the context of B:I, the impact of the ending is a permanent state of mindfucked. To this day, the impact was so severe that many people treat the condition with copious amounts of Liz SFM porn.
Also its not necessarily a burden if you can bust up cars just by tackling it with your turtle shell.
I fucking had to pause the game and take a literal breather, heart racing and everything. That shit came out of nowhere, I had no idea what I was gonna do. Finally I said fuck it, unpaused it, and started firing rounds and hurling Molotovs at that fucker. Got through it on my first try, thank jesus.
>>285670621 I did all the collectables, they never said Ellie was the only one. In one of the final tapes its got a firefly doctor talking about how the other patients deaths wouldn't be in vain. Suggesting she's not the first, and that the firefly's are a bunch of colossal fuck ups.
Even if they had managed to put together a cure, how the fuck would they go about mass producing and distributing it anyway. Its clear their completely inept, and the government forces had just smashed them in the safe zone.
>>285677767 It's heavily implied that she is the one and only, the comment about the others was probably about people they'd infected as part of experiments or Fireflies in general. They were fuckups either way, though.
Mass production, let alone distribution, would've been next to impossible given the current infrastructure of the world and the limited amount of supplies available. Reverse engineering and a mass produced chemical vaccine in a world where there are no supply lines and little electricity? Good luck.
What's more likely is that if the virus would've been reverse engineered and there was some kind of cure (most likely a vaccine, as it's a fungal eukaroyte), the Fireflies would keep what little they have to themselves.
I simply can't wrap my mind around a situation where Joel isn't right. Unless someone has a magic button.
I like not having a choice sometimes. Like the ending in Silent Hill 2 where you have to watch maria die or have to shoot your wife even if you personally don't want to. It made me feel a little closer to James. Silent Hill 2 even did multiple endings better than games that give you choices.
>>285673524 The ending is supposed to induce discussion and debate you retard, especially when Ellie makes him swear he wasn't lying to her and mentions she's waiting to join her friend in the afterlife. Either way you look at it, the whole situation is morally gray and there's no way you can consider what Joel did as "good". It's also hard to consider it "wrong" though.
>>285672456 I think this. Games, even if being greatly written, are FAR from being great works of art. That's why sometimes i prefer old games, because then they focused on gameplay, and videogames is the only medium where you can get any type of gameplay and great gameplay. But now they all focus on a great story, and they are very bad compared to great stories in books or in movies. And more now that they try to imitate hollywoods generic movie characters to make games more "movie" like.
Literally the only people who had to ask were people who did not play the game and people who rushed through the game. The game gives you an audio log which blatantly says they chopped up other people like Ellie and nothing came out of it.
>>285679550 If they didn't want the ending to induce discussion then they wouldn't have had the epilogue scene demonstrating how Joel was in the wrong in more ways than one. It's obviously supposed to be conflicting.
The epilogue scene showed that good men sometimes have to do bad things to try to get shit done. Thats all it was. Ellie doesn't trust him because shes a lesbian who has had to deal with hostile men all of her life, not because Joel is evil.
>>285679441 I played this game for the first time like a year ago and felt the same after an hour. I picked it up a couple weeks ago and blasted through it all and loved it. Give it a chance. Try survivor difficulty if you aren't challenged.
>>285680036 >The epilogue scene showed that good men sometimes have to do bad things to try to get shit done.
This is very interesting considering Joel's actions stopped people from doing a bad thing to get a good result. So whilst Joel is against 'means justify the ends' he also practices it himself. I guess he sees Ellie as some sort of way out of all of that brutal survival for survival's sake.
He stopped people from doing a bad thing by committing a localized genocide event. He had to remove roughly 50 men and 1 woman from the human gene pool to save Ellie. In the context of the story, it was a good thing because Ellie didn't deserve to be treated like that after all of her life's struggles. And thats the only context that matters.
>>285680398 Except for Ellie was okay with being sacrificed for the greater good. She makes it obvious with her monologue in the epilogue. She would've preferred it over Joel slaughtering a small army of people and potentially fucking over all of humanity just for her sake.
Ellie was okay with the general romanticized idea of her death having some meaning, when the entire game preached to the contrary - that there is no contribution that death can bring after death itself, and that the burden of life struggles continue to rest on the shoulders of the living. The epilogue emphasized the fuck out of this - a young girl who still believed in the romanticized idea of a heroic death, and an old, grizzled man who has to lie to convince her to live.
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