When and why did making stuff (Games, YouTube videos, etc.) become more about squeezing as much money as possible out of people than passion for their creation?
Newgrounds is a fine example. A lot of times, you could find games and animations there with superb quality (for the time), despite not making bank off of it. YouTube used to be the same way before everyone could monetize videos.
Now, though, it's all about making as much money as possible, not making something for like-minded people to enjoy. Passion and enjoyment for making games has become niche, though I've often found that projects that were never in it for the money happen to be great. I mean, at one time, making games (something you loved) and getting paid for it was like a privilege. And now there's a handful of devs that see devving as that.
I'm constantly reminded every time I say I want to make games that "You'll hate it, it sucks" or "Being a developer doesn't even pay that much", and that's a big problem with people that want to get into the industry.
And yeah, there's people that use games to push agendas, but there always were, it was mostly just on flash sites and shit.
tl,dr: Make something because you want to, not because you can make money off of it.
I think a lot of the problem is a quality gap. It's getting harder and harder for people new to the industry to match expected quality. One person can't make a game like GTA5, you'd need a whole building of people.
Look at your example, Newgrounds. Older games looked like shit, but were fun. Now, it's more about appeal at face-value.
Yeah, I think that's got a lot to do with it. I mean, newbie animators can't match Oney or Stamper, for example, so people don't get their hopes up and try.
And then there's the whole "edgy" bullshit. Don't lie, everything back then was dark and trying to be mature. Now any mention of death or killing either attracts little kids, or gets you flamed.
The "quality" games from back you are talking about were actually mostly shit, you just remember the good ones + nostalgia goggles.
We have much more quality content today thanks to both the increasing popularity of the internet, and the monetization of your content.
Most creators would not create anything if they couldn't get money with it, since they'd get much less time.
And despite what you think, a lot of them make what they do out of passion. You just believe what you want to believe.
Stop fucking complaining, 90% of everything is shit, and that has always been true. Today, 90% just represent a bigger amount of content, and that stands for the remaining 10% too.
>everything back then was dark and trying to be mature
I think that was just the fad with teens at the time. You know, linkin park, anime AMVs with that "I've become SO NUMB" song that I hate so much, the emphasis on game companies to make edgy stuff like shadow the edgehog and Jak II. The "emo" fad.
Yes, but instead of "I made this, so I get paid"
It's now "I get paid, so I made this"
The problem with the increasing popularity of the internet, is that it's becoming increasingly centralized. I think it was something like 25 sites now hold more than 50% of all internet traffic.
I feel like a lot of indie games that come out are just flash games with more content/graphics put into them or just flash games that people are charging money for now because they can. The former's fine, but the latter's starting to annoy me.
I've got the same feeling OP, most of those fucking indie games from now barely have the love of and dedication from the old FREE quality games on newgrounds.
As for youtube I think it's because of people like pewdiepie who do jack shit and get paid for it, everybody wants to be a podcaster retard like them.
You misunderstand. Getting paid for it isn't a bad thing. It's when people flock to the market trying to make bank off of games.
I mean, if I made games, I'd feel honored knowing that I can support myself doing something I love, not act like a jaded prick like some devs.
I think the internet just got too big to be fun. Can you imagine a kid today recording a crappy video of himself dancing and getting famous for it?
There's still some based devs out there. The Hotline Miami devs are fucking great
There are still good youtube people out there that aren't just trying to clickbait/suck money out of you. It's just that youtube has grown so large that it's much easier to only see the big channels that only treat it as a business. There are still all those small channels out there, they're just harder to spot.
IDK about flashgames though. I'm not sure if anyone still makes them, because I'm pretty sure they all try to release their half-assed games through steam greenlight instead now.
See. I don't think you really know or respect the time it takes to make a videogame, then. Especially if you're in a team of one or two people. Just cranking code and art a few hours after work or school means you'll be at it for years. Being able to have money outside of work or doing commissions means more time on the video game. Money=Time in this case.
>At it for years
I'm not talking big triple A titles or anything. I'm talking something simple. And yeah, it does take time. Did that stop the guys that made Katawa Shoujo? No, they worked through it out of passion, and they never charged a cent.
You see that's what I think so many people in the industry seem to forget these days.
These games that they make, they are meant to be PLAYED, meant to be enjoyed. I know people have to make a livelihood out of it, so you have to charge something, but ultimately if it's all about the money you can make, then what's the point? Even running a business should have a point to it, a goal, an agenda of some kind. Something to push it forward to making progress.
If I ever made a game, and only one person ever played it and said they enjoyed I would be over the goddamn moon, even if they hadn't even paid for it. I would have succeeded in entertaining someone. That's the reason why I would bother to make anything in the first place. That feedback SHOULD encourage me to keep working to make something better.
That's why I get pissed of with the modern state of gaming. Games become soul-less products to generate revenue. Big companies forget the point of why they were in business in the first place and just run around pleasing shareholders who only care about their dividends. The games become more and more wishy-washy and rushed. Many are barely functional, and ultimately aren't all a lot of fun since they aren't targeted towards anything in particular.
pretty sure fancy pants eventually got like a wii and xbla release at some point... not that it was ever good, it was just good 'for a flash game'.
there has always been a separation between hobbyists, indie game developers and big-name game developers. there always were a ton of free games being released and most are shit, there always was a ton of shareware (whoops, i mean indie games) being released, neither has really changed
what has changed is that smaller hobbyist\shareware games are now more covered by the media (probably just because of the indie developer\press circlejerk) and are of more interest to a public that's disenfranchised by expensive, shitty games
Gonna dump some nostalgia stuff
I can tell you that the reason you see a lot of people squeezing pennies on Youtube is because you CAN make a living on Youtube, but it's like squeezing blood from a stone.
Youtube itself fucking sucks as a platform to live on. They take 45% of all ad revenue, they harass content providers endlessly about copyright bullshit even if the artist isn't doing parodies or something, and if you want the harassment to stop you're required to join a network that takes 40% of your remaining income.
This forces an artist to maintain millions of views PER MONTH, or they won't make ends meet. Even more frustrating? Youtube just changed its terms of service so that if you have a sponsor, you now have to pay Youtube 45% of that sponsor money as well.
Think about that. Imagine you're an artist just barely scraping by on minimum wage and you have millions of viewers watching your work, and every day you feel the walls closing in on your because Youtube keeps spreading ads out and making each ad click worth less and less to you. It's hard NOT to get obsessed with the finances in that kind of environment.
>"Oh, why don't they do it for fun in their free time?"
Well they can, but then they only get a new video out once a year if you're lucky, assuming that they're producing original content. Seriously, Youtube is a place of starving artists. The ordinary guy on there, if he's living off the site, is probably skipping meals to save cash but still working sixty hours a week.
>tl,dr: Make something because you want to, not because you can make money off of it.
All good inventions were created thanks to money, art for the sake art has always ended up feeding jewish cunts who snatch and steal from people who do it for free. Tesla was a genius doing his work for free, if it had been a financial genius as well we would live in a much different world, but he was an idealist and died with "good ideas" that other people developed and patented, it would had been much better if Testa creations had profit him so he could have kept working on his projects.
I.E if you aren't working for money you are a dumb commie retard, because no matter how good your work is, if you can't continue to work on it, it is worthless. This is why giants like EA, Comcast etc will always be ahead in the game, they feed of idealistic morons who think they are the saving grace of mankind then get used, abused, and tossed aside. Either be your own man, or be someone else's aid, it is that simple.
Video games have always been about money and you're never really going to change that. Its just now the business model has shifted, before you could code out a game in some guy's basement with 5 other people, now in order to even be considered for a major release you need 6 years spent with hundreds of people to shit out a game and market it.
You're talking about Let's Plays?
Man, I'm talking about making cartoons and things. That's what I do with a small team. I average between 600k to 700k per month and you couldn't feed one person on the ad revenue. The fans want you to produce more content faster, but the viewership by itself can't be lived on. You've got to worry about Patreon, merchandise, and whatever. So far I've been able to support myself and one other guy on that viewership if we're happy living on $15k per year each.
Seriously, man. 600k views on content we draw, animate, voice, and write ourselves, and it doesn't pay the bills. At some point you don't have to do it out of love, but where I'm at, it's about both love and trying to earn enough to scrape a living. If I get a job and work on the side, videos won't get done and over a half million viewers are disappointed and so am I. If I work exclusively on videos, I live on peanuts.
The Youtube thing is not lucrative. Guys like Pewdiepie are like basketball players in the NBA. Sure, THEY'RE rich, but lottery jackpot stuff. For the rest of us, there's the starving artist thing. We're not buried in money, here.
What do you think "trending" videos and shit are?
With the internet expanding things stick around for a shorter time unless they're actively promoted. You can still find all the shitty videos of retards doing retarded things with a million+ views that you want.
I'm not sure I like some of the sprites he's using, the shadows look weird, and he really has to work on his stages, but the animation's pretty solid. If he doesn't go full spergo with the story, and keeps it Cell Saga, we should be okay.
On another note, has anyone here ever tried flash animation? I threw some stuff together the other day and I think it turned out decent. Unoriginal, but decent.
People keep trying to find new ways to make money off of the internet, when it's really not that stable of a business model, unless you're selling something. The public is too fickle and quick to change opinion.
Yeah, and now, with as many people are on the internet, and with as centralized as it's become, anything that "trends" gets run into the ground in a few days. It's a shame, really.
Ah, I remember the days when I made shitty flash animations at school. It was an early version of flash too, like Macromedia Flash 4, so you couldn't do much more than tweening on it.
Then I remember one day I went home and pirated a newer version (8 I think?) and I "upgraded" my shitty free bravehost website with an interactive flash webportal.
Those were different times. When you had the time as a kid to just dick around with random programs for hours on end. Man. I really hate "growing up" and working.
Thanks! I think it'd look a lot better with some minor tweaks, because a lot of it's just basic stuff that doesn't line up right inbetween frames. Still, you made my day, anon, so thanks!
>not that it was ever good, it was just good 'for a flash game'.
I dunno, I think fancy pants man was a totally decent platformer. its only problem was that it did nothing new.
It didn't do anything "new", per say, but it refined everything about platformers to a point. Everything was momentum, and there were added bits that meant you could do some really skillful stuff once you got good, but it was still accessible to newbs.
Yes, percentage-wise thee amount of shit games did not change. The problem is that "good" games today are mostly AAA games which are vanilla/streamlined/dumbed down as shit.
Literally EVERY fucking game series has become easier and more accessible. This is not entirely a bad thing. There are a lot of aspects of old games that I'm glad are gone. But there are also a lot of stuff that I liked like tetris inventory and gameplay focused rpgs and maze-like level design and cool easter eggs and a million other things.
Regarding the youtubers my only problem is every time one of my subs gets popular (which they deserve) but all of a sudden liking, subbing and sharing isn't enough. They want me to go to their twitch and sub there and become a patron.
Like OP said. It's fine if you're making money off something you enjoy, but don't do it soley to get as much money as you can. Be thankful that you're getting money for it to begin with.
Games made with Adobe Flash. They used to be a thing people posted on sites like Kongregate and Newgrounds for free, but now they can get it greenlit on Steam and charge people to play them.
Probably, but typically you won't get in trouble if you aren't making money off something that's not yours. For example, plenty of Sonic Boom videos were removed for bashing the game, despite not being monetized.
>Surfing through my archives
>Find my old work I did as a kid
>Tons of original sprite sets, tilesets, backgrounds, character designs, animations for various "dream" games
>Even found a shitty action game I made in flash
>See a cute animation
>The date is exactly a day before I got my first job
>Nothing in my archives after this date compares to all this work and creativity I had
Because being an amateur dev now is about being "indie". Getting in your "viral" hit, milking it for as much fucking money as possible, then going back to being fucking nobody two months later when all the attention dies off.
I hate the indie label. Its definition has turned to pretentious shit to me.
I just want to make a game and have a lot of people play it. Unfortunately, that would still require viraling the fuck out of it.
What sucks is going to public forums and showing your games off would give you a bunch of ass kisses and little to no actual critiques unless your game is complete shit.
And if you advertise on /v/, your thread gets ignored, shit posted or called a viral marketer. And you still don't get actual critiques.
I feel ya man. That's why I like when some kind anon posts a "Show off your dev progress here" thread, because you can get actual criticism and stuff. Maybe a finished game general on /vg/ could work too.
I'm still making it anon. We're all gonna make it.
It would just crush my heart if /v/ ends up hating it
I think it's because of how much more accessible the Internet has become in the past couple of decades. In the late 90's, early 00's most people who even knew where to start with Flash and Shockwave and shit were already good enough at drawing/programming/whatever that they had the desire to get everything set up. Now with YouTube tutorials up the wazoo and smart phones and the like, everyone uses the Internet regularly. This doesn't mean there aren't any good flash games and animations out there. I'd imagine there are just as many good ones per year as there always has been. They're just getting more and more diluted with childish dreck and epic memes.
Actually now that I think of it, we all went through an obnoxious phase at some point and a lot of Newgrounds/ABS classics really show that. If you saw End of Ze World for the first time now you'd be disgusted, even if it came in a higher quality.
tl;dr: I think it's half the rising popularity of the Internet dragging kids to make animations at younger and younger ages and our own tastes refining over time as we realize how terrible most of the crap we used to enjoy is.
>We have much more quality content today thanks to both the increasing popularity of the internet, and the monetization of your content.
oh lawd how'd you type this with a straight face
>no passions for anything
>slight interest in IT
>go study IT
>get soul sucking teachers
>lose all motivation to do anything
>wasted my school years
>cant into IT
>still understand it
and im now unemployed
Animating has just become more accessible. You'll get a larger amount of horse crap and pretty much the same amount of good stuff. Also remember you grew up on stupid randum shit too:
Go ahead. Look for your favorites.
So yeah, the bulk of our online games and video are pure garbage but people new to the Internet (mostly young children nowadays) will love the novelty like adults used to when the stuff first started gaining popularity. In a decade some kids will use the Wayback Machine to see Newgrounds how they saw it growing up. They'll look up that Tobuscus song about his diamond sword and wonder why everything is shit compared to it.
It wasn't just vidya and entertainment, OP. The entire Internet just got too big and the mainstream became ultra aware. That's why you get shit like Ellen Degeneris or however you spell her name doing shit like "Meme of the week".
You can't find something good online anymore and say "Yes, this is good" and move on, maybe return to it a year later and enjoy it, you have to let people beat it to a bloody pulp. Think back to Jessi Slaughter, people quoted the "CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME" for a little while, it was funny in the right context and I'd probably still laugh today if someone said it in the right way. Now imagine if Jessi Slaughter happened this year, you'd hear everyone saying it, you'd hear people saying it real life, you'd hear it on some 2hip4u day time TV show a month after it was still relevant. Jokes and entertainment are beaten to a bloody pulp until they lose all appeal.
Now look at vidya. People will kill their own if it means being able to buy the next big hyped up thing and others realise they can make money off that. Who cares if your game is good? If you can pump millions into advertising it'll basically sell itself, bad reviews and all.
Copyright law a shit these days. It doesn't really matter if your work is commercial or even if it falls under fair use. Basically, your work can be taken down or given strikes if they can claim it. Yes, even if they're claiming frivolous shit they have no ownership of, such as the sound of a particular bird call or something.
For a while there were whole companies on Youtube dedicated to spoofing the Content ID system and stealing revenue that way. It's easier to fuck up someone's channel than it is to build one yourself. Hell, Yogscast was removed from Youtube for six hours once because they were flagged as "under age", and Youtube is just happy to be killing people off.
Don't even use public domain material if you're serious about your Youtube channel. Someone will claim it in Content ID and wreck your channel.
>list of good Flash games
Could be, I haven't been keeping tabs on Flash shit since forever, but the freeware game scene has pretty much shriveled up and died over the years and that's what really gets me rustled.
Back in ye olden days, you had people spreading their games for free just so everyone could have fun, ranging from tiny projects to full-on professional quality titles. Hell, some of my fondest gaymen memories ever were had on those low-resolution DOS/early Windows indie freeware titles. Now it's all gone and swept away to make room for Greenlight, Kikestarter, Early Access and what have you.
What the hell happened? Can't people have fun anymore without instinctively clasping their hands together and smirking?
Well, what content do you produce? Your perspective seems to be from the side of an idealistic consumer.
Producing content takes time. Passion has nothing to do with anything here. If you're not getting paid for it then you'll be out 8 hours a day working on something that does pay. I suppose your "passion" would make you incredibly autistic to the point you spend all of your free time working on your hobby. In reality real life people have social obligations. Realistically you're only going to be putting a couple of hours a week on the thing at most.
A lot of these people pursue doing this thing their love as their main source of income because they rather do this thing they love, and that their fans love instead of having to work on a job they don't love and their fans getting little to no content. It is a relationship where everyone involved win, yet there's this stupid hipster mentality of "oh they're selling out", and its like "uh, oh, ok i guess. don't pay me, I guess I'll just have a shitty job and then do my hobby on my own for myself on my free time and probably not worry about sharing it with self entitled assholes"
Reminder you should block all advertising.
If you want to support creators, donate or buy something. When you let an ad play, you're not supporting a creator, you're supporting pic related.
I've been getting "Porkchop and Flatscreen". It's fucking awful. There's no plot, the artwork is what you'd see from a teenager on Deviantart, and I think the entire appeal is that the "fat" girl has big boobs. However, the "fat" girl does not have any kind of realistic anatomy - she looks more pregnant than anything because the artist kind of sucks.
Millions and millions of views, these videos.
Youtube's algorithm promotes vomit.
This actually brings up something I forgot about. The fact that a lot of the people who first got into Flash were already late teens/young adults means we grew up on some pretty vulgur shit compared to now when people are free to learn anything they need to animate as soon as they can use a mouse and keyboard. This isn't a bad thing necessarily, but it'll make old randumb crap and new randumb crap a bit easier to distinguish than it already was.
Also back in the day 99% of flash stuff was free. It just didn't seem right to make people pay for things anyone could've made. Again this isn't necessarily a bad thing that people are getting money for their work, but it will decrease the amount of intentionally crude and lazily put together art already experienced animators might make. Money's in it for them when they make good stuff!
I'm not opposed to the idea of these people making a living doing what they love, but regardless it has and will continue to cause side effects like that which will be very hard to adjust to.
tl;dr: They're here to give kids the lame crap we grew up on, but now we're not the target audience. It sucks but at least someone's doing it.
I don't agree with the ludicrous pricing schemes, but have you ever tried being a developer?
It's an extremely hard job. In order to do a job however, you need to be paid well. If you think you can be a spare time dev, give up. It took 6 years for pixel to even finish a platformer of scale because he only worked on it in his spare time.
Also, your fans are shit. There is an iOS/Android game that had a "good" pricing model for the users, but it meant they were not making any money. They changed it so the way it worked is ads ran 3 times as frequently, but if you ever purchase anything in the game (the minimum purchase being a dollar) you will never see another ad. Keep in mind too, the things you can purchase don't really effect gameplay, so you are essentially buying the whole game for a dollar.
People called them greedy thieves for asking for a dollar. It's really hard to do what you love and not think about exploiting people when you are broke and they treat you like trash.
Here a traffic volume chart from 2014.
It's really sad to see netflix grow so much. I always imagined that TV would just die and people would somehow be forced to learn how to use the internet better. But nah in came netflix and offered "stupid and simple" for a low cost.
There have been talk for a long whie that indie is kind of stale as a term. Especially when they get E3 trailers.
Is there a description like small press in video games? Maybe boutique games?
Kind of how companies like Ori Toys and 3A does small-run toys for collectors instead of shacking with Toys R Us or whatever.
I think what hit the nail into my creative coffin was part-time work I took on when I was 16/17.
Back when I was 14/15, I was working on Game Maker stuff, and I did all kinds of shit with flash and a little html. I didn't care that it was good. I knew what I made was crap, but I remember I just had fun learning and doing, and didn't have to worry about shit like I do now.
It's depressing really. I could never get that spark of activity back no matter what I did.
My A levels were miserable, my Uni degree was a struggle. And it's gotten me fuck all so far. My grades weren't nothing special. Three C's and a 2:1 in Business Management.
No decent job, the same shitty part-time work, but now I do it 3 days a week. Very little drive to do anything else except half-heartedly play videogames, go out for walks listening to old rock music, and cook random shit.
And the worst part? The ideas just never go away. They haunt me all the time. I bring up an old document, find an old file, find some random scrap of paper with a dumb idea on it, and it almost makes me cry.
It's like the creativity floods back in for one singluar moment, then dissolves instantly when I open up any sort of software and start working on it. I devolved into a shitty ideas man when I had a modicum of potential.
I make excuses all the time to not even try now. Like "I need a good work space" or, " I need a better PC to work on". But I know what's up really. I'm just a fucking waste who was too afriad to something that I actually wanted to do in life. Too afraid to try.
Garden Gnome Carnage
the EBF series
Mardek II & III
Pandemic II (the game where you're a virus)
The Last Stand
The Last Stand II
The bloons games (only played like one of them, but it seemed fine)
Mastermind: World Conqueror
There are a lot of flash games
>mfw I've tried to make money off what I love doing
>mfw it worked out very poorly
>mfw I still do it
Making things like artwork and youtube comedy videos are great, but I still need to live. If I can make money off that stuff I'll be able to do less work-work and make more stuff I like doing, which is why if I get the chance I'll monetize my work, at least to a degree. My only two fears about that would be having no time to make things because work-work takes over or becoming some markiplier-esque fuckup who makes shit he once loved to pander to a screaming audience of snotty ad watching eyeballs.
That fucking sucks, especially the sponsor thing. I assume if you never explicitly stated you were sponsored or kept all mention of your sponsorship on your own website, which I would assume you have, they couldn't really charge you for it, but your sponsors obviously wouldn't like that. Then again, you could mirror all your videos in the case that youtube takes down your shit, but that would cause a massive drop in viewership. You really need to go heavy on the merch and non-youtube shit to be profitable. Honestly, my dream would to have something like Mega64 going, where their money comes mostly from freelance and their videos are pretty much a side gig/their source of branding.
That dick doesn't seem to work.
Is that a woman with a dick or a man with boobs?
my nigga from another country, how far have you made it? 132 wave here, fucking mortar tanks.