>>287202953 I've seen too many misguided attempts to mix the two. Game stories tend to be juvenile and simplistic. Also, there's far more popular movies from other countries. Same can't be said about games.
>>287202304 as someone who loves vidyer i would like to say those comics are fucking retarded, because every medium has their own advantages and disadvantages. focuses on different things and there isn't one that's inherently better or worse than another
This. It's hard to do subtlety in a video game for example because you have to portray something in a very specific way. When you give the viewer control you can't guarantee they will see it the way you intended. Sometimes a fixed perspective and soundtrack guarantee a better scene.
>>287204256 It's strange. There was this episode of Batman the Animated Series about Bruce's childhood TV hero The Grey Ghost, where Batman realizes that a crime is like an episode he saw and he goes to the aged actor, who was always typecasted afterwards and resented his role. The guy was voiced by Adam West, but the story fits Micheal Keaton even moreso.
>>287202304 I can never really nail down if I like this guy or not. These little infographic opinion thingies are dumb and often pretentious, but I really like some of the ideas he puts fourth about life and stuff in Subnormality.
>>287204915 Art media are a continuum. There are movie games and there are picture books. And music videos. And music visualizers. So you could interpolate and create a smooth curve instead of a histogram.
>>287205252 I dunno, I kinda like it. The way he draws crowds of completely unique people for large shots is pretty great and his women are pretty rockin. Apparently everything he draws is done with on decade old pen or something which is kind of neat.
>>287205135 It's a bullshit graph. It could possibly work if you used bars and ignored the fact that "art" is not a quantifiable measurement, but you went full retard and made it a continuous line graph. That implies continuity, that "literature" can be one unit of whatever and "painting" can be two units and at one and a half units there's some sort of middle ground that's more artistic than painting but less artistic than literature. Yes, I mad.
Art is the most subjective bullshit on the planet. Unfortunately at some stage people forgot this, and decided that the term "art" had some weight.
The term "art" has zero value. If anything, being branded "art" makes you look worse in this day and age, because the people who talk about art the most end to go on about modern performance art and shit where women fart beans onto toast from their ass or ferment a quails egg in a stomach wound and claim that the bacteria forming and dying represents the birth and decay of humanity.
Giving a shit about art just makes you sound like a fucking faggot these days.
>>287202793 >Make your choice: >[x] Do bad thing >[y] Ask me again >Well there's not much of an option >[x] >Why did you do that? You didn't need to. You're an awful person and you do bad things. I really don't get why everyone sucks this game's dick so much. It's gameplay is so generic it hurts and the "choices" are extremely limiting. I admit that the idea is solid and your character's words and actions getting more violent over time is a nice touch but it's just too forced.
>>287206435 VR is a fever-dream revived by morons with no viability in the market or anywhere else. 3D has come and gone 3 times now and wagglan died, the fuck makes you think VR is going to pan out in your lifetime? Until we can beam experiences into your brain VR is a worthless pursuit.
>>287206418 >incredibly prevalent Barely 30 years old and it's already niche. >Influential It only influences other retarded literally who bands. Punk is shit, specially when they market it as an attitude., get over it.
Agreed, actually. Good taste. I'd assert the closest contender is Taxi Driver.
Anyway, the problem with video games is that no one is focusing on advancing the basic component of the medium: gameplay, which further reduced, is the "meaning" and ramifications that exists between input and output to generate a unique experience.
Imagine if people decided sentences were holding back literature, or that image composition was holding back painting. That's the kind of stupid, worthless shits that exist as "critics" of video games right now.
Video games were a far, far more respectable medium when they simply strove to be penultimate virtual toys to enjoy, ironically.
>>287206418 >Bad Religion >Social commentary is the absolute most important aspect of being a punk band >Defiance against authority, unrest, and rebellion against the norm and standards >But I'm rating them low because they don't fit the conformed image of what a punk band needs to look like
>>287202304 For video games to offer better storytelling while still giving the player complete freedom, you have to rely on the player actually being a competent director. This is clearly never the case. Players wander away to pick flowers while characters are talking to them. They stop to organize their inventories while fire and brimstone is raining from the sky and they have to rush to the hellgate to defeat evil and save the world. They pick up a cucumber and start trying to shove under the grieving widow's skirt while she's in tears explaining how the corrupt king got her husband killed and you need to assassinate him and free the country.
>>287203327 I don't know... Have you ever been to the Louvre? Its a beautiful palace full of thousands of pieces of art, yet everyone crowds around this one little painting, looking at it through their smartphones so they can tell people they saw "Da Vinci's Masterpiece". Yet the hall before it has other paintings by Leonardo and all the greats, and the hall behind it is full of great Revolutionary and Napoleonic works. Very few people look at those. The old phrase is missing the forest for the trees, but the Mona Lisa really takes it to extremes. So what game appeals to casual faggots who don't appreciate its depth and will never explore other games?
>>287210191 When I went, they had a bunch of Goya paintings on an upper floor, it was definitely the best part of the visit. Mona Lisa is an extremely good painting, sure, but we've seen it millions of times, and I feel like it's no different seeing it in person than it is seeing a printout. Whereas' Goya's work has real texture and, I don't know how to describe it, presence I suppose. It's awe-inspiring to look at it from so close.
>>287210568 You wouldn't even be able to see the texture in the Mona Lisa anyway. You have to stand five feet away and its behind glass. Most of the other paintings in the Louvre you could lick if you wanted to.
>>287210356 It is about status, you buy a uniform and some flair to differentiate yourself from the mindless masses. You must assume an antisocial posture and religiously attend ceremonies put on by the high priests of authenticity. All the time never questioning whether the critique of society that the movement is founded on is valid or not. Bravo Sheeple
>>287210191 The Napoleonic works had plenty of people viewing them when I went. The coronation of Napoleon is one the most impressive things in the museum, that and the Napoleon III apartments. Though it was impressive to me through my lay understanding. Going to the Louvre is overwhelming, there is too much to see. So most people just gravitate to what they know or what is impressive on an accessible level. That does not make bad, just obvious. So my answer to your question would be Zelda.
>>287213784 Oh for the love of fuck, you don't even know what fedora means anymore. >>287213924 It's a more entertaining movie, but I disagree that it's a better one. Still one of my favorites, from before Terry Gilliam started sucking compulsively.
>>287214503 >hasn't exactly been great You are being too generous. Most of it sucked. I recently got The Zero Theorem and I'm putting off watching it just because I know it will be another complete disappointment.
>>287213662 No. The guy who does these things misses the eloquence and the skill it takes to convey a message in less than a 20+ hour game so crowds his comics in order to explicitly spell out what he means, making them bloated and ugly.
Buckley's miscarriage had more subtlety than this hack.
I don't know what the fuck people have been saying in this thread. But I just wanted to say one thing:
OP's picture is completely retarded in assuming that having NO TIME LIMITS is a good thing. For fucks sake, that's actually something that has been holding back the RPG genre for DECADES.
We're still years away from a properly developed RPG which actually accounts for the passage of time. Yes, games like Fallout 1 have implemented a bit of this kind of design, but until we reach the point where games naturally reflect how nature has no pause button, it's a big fucking issue for complete immersion.
>>287216931 It's not only the passage of time, it's pacing. You want a crescendo in your game, you eventually want the tension, the action, the drama to ramp up and ultimately peak before the resolution. In non-linear games, that is almost always ruined by the player deciding he wants to finish all his sidequests before fighting the last boss.
I'm not saying non linear games are bad, I'm just saying they are not conductive to good storytelling, they're closer to reading Wikipedia than they are to reading a book. You're hopping from one topic to the next with no rhyme or reason.
>>287217360 It's not overrated, it was at one point the greatest movie ever made, the only reason people ever say it's overrated by it is because so many other directors copied everything it did for cinema.
It is to movies, what Wolfenstein 3D is to FPS. And even though on it's own now it's not exceptional, and it seems a little overrated, it's just because we need to view it with context.
And you need to learn to read. I didn't say that all games have pause buttons, I said that games aren't well designed enough to resolve the issue of time being a continuum. Or in other words, the technology and tools aren't there yet to make it easy to create games which automatically create content in context, which in our discussion refers to the passage of time.
If you are really that thickheaded and still don't understand my point, I'm talking about how games as SIMULATIONS in terms of technological progress have yet to reach the point where the barrier between reality and fantasy is nigh indistinguishable. This necessarily requires the simulation to be all encompassing, hence the need for passage of time to be properly implemented for all events.
>>287217643 OP's picture refers to Deus Ex. It's a great game, but it could have been even better had all of your objectives been subject to time restraints.
Think about it. In the game, it's fairly obvious when you trigger main storyline events. As such, you just don't give a shit about them. You know you have nothing to lose by wandering about aimlessly.
If instead Deus Ex was designed in such a way that all of the main storyline events had multiple variations depending on how much time you took, not only would the player naturally start to pay more attention, and therefore become more immersed, but the developers would have more powerful options for driving the narrative. Because the connection between action and emotion would be more powerfully connected.
>>287218289 >Think about it. In the game, it's fairly obvious when you trigger main storyline events. As such, you just don't give a shit about them. You know you have nothing to lose by wandering about aimlessly. And that's a good thing. I want to have time to do all the side quests and all that without stressing out about the main story. I'm already immersed in all the things I can do instead of carefully managing my time, which would take away from that.
Furthermore, lets talk about your retarded suggestion of Dark Souls having no pause button.
Yes, that's true. But none of its events are time-dependent either. So it's actually a terrible example to bring up because it doesn't put any pressure upon the player to account for the passage of time. All it does is simply maintain AI operations within bounded fields, i.e. the area maps.
Thank goodness you actually had an ounce of intelligence to bring up Majora's Mask, although every-fucking-one should know that it's one of the few games to attempt to implement a complete simulation of timed events. Although, please don't try and tell me it's the pinnacle of game development, it's so fucking old and limited. Even with the remake which is a huge missed opportunity.
>>287218289 >You know you have nothing to lose by wandering about aimlessly. But that's one of my favorite things in games with larger levels. I like fucking around and searching every corner before continuing on.
>>287218094 But it was never the greatest movie ever made. The only truly fantastic thing about it is the cinematography. The story at its core makes absolutely no sense, and the acting is only decent. If anything its the reason that people put too much emphasis on the director, and not enough on every other part of the film making process.
>>287219416 >it's a good game It's an incredibly boring game. It felt like probably one of the most generic TPS games in terms of actually playing it. It has neat shit, but it is not fun to push through.
You missed my point completely. Your immersion is incomplete because the things you do have no meaning in the absence of passage of time.
Let me get even more explicit with examples then.
If you played Human Revolution, recall the event with Malik. Was it not an engaging moment? One of the few meaningful ones in that dreadfully boring game? One where you had to quickly make the decision to take on a (seemingly) impossible task (you did play it on hard, right?). As a time-limited event, it forced the player to become fully immersed, to take into consideration the effects of all of his actions.
Now I do see that I may be confusing the issue slightly. I'm not saying that every single storyline event has to have the same LEVEL of tension. However, I am saying that if EVERY event was designed with this kind of consideration and BALANCED to drive the player when needed or conversely ease them into a more relaxed state, then Deus Ex, all of the games in the series, would have been significantly improved by providing fuller immersion. For is that not the point of the simulation, to meaningfully take action?
So you like being autistically OCD about exploring every fucking trashcan in the city? No wonder all of these retarded games journalists loved Human Revolution! It gave you exp the most for being the most autistic retarded fucks possible! Hack everything for no good reason! Nonviolently KO everyone just for the exp! Accumulate tons of worthless resources because the devs only know how to design skinner box models!
But seriously, games aren't at the point where that defense is valid. Maybe in a few decades when they're beautiful and complex enough to be completely engrossed into.
>>287204103 Yes. >Video Games Interactive combination of pretty much every type of art (jack of all trades master of none) >Film A manufactured and restricted representation of a narrative with little room for interpretation. >Music Inspires raw emotions. >Paintings Refined emotion. >Literature Refined thought.
>>287219902 What does any of that shit about gaming journalists have to do with what I said? I said I liked looking around locations without having timing restrictions. I don't play games with larger levels to go fast, I play them because I like adventuring and shit.
I don't care if people say "this video game isn't art," but the medium as a whole CAN'T be art? As in the propensity to be art is nonexistent across this whole medium? Despite everything it has and will achieve, its nature as a combination of every other established art form, there is a concrete impossibility for video games to be art?
>>287220536 Well, why can't toys be considered art as well?
I mean, sure, they're just playthings, but is there not a level of artistry involved? Sculpting the action figure, sewing the plush doll, sound design in electronic toys? Designing an item to elicit an emotional response from the audience?
>>287220646 Why can't something meant for children be art?
Is art something only the grownups are allowed to have?
>>287219902 >Your immersion is incomplete Who the fuck are you to tell me how I experience immersion? The reason _I_ am immersed is because I can do whatever I want. If every single event had some sort of timer on it where I had to do x before y or z or even a would happen, it would vastly dampen my enjoyment because instead of exploring it would turn into time management.
I said completely engrossed into, not that I couldn't become engrossed in a video game. The distinction being that games currently are at a fraction of their potential, hence the few decades for true simulations where "adventuring and shit" would finally begin to be truly worth it.
Because, really, what exactly are you doing in all of these games today when you go "adventuring"? You chop up a few enemies here, get into some isolated trouble there, and maybe very rarely end up causing something to affect something else, say maybe make an NPC mad or I don't know. It's all quite boring when you've played games for long enough to know how nearly every single game with an "open world" is going to play out.
Which, as I said before, has no bearing on whether or not I can get engrossed into video games. I can certainly get focused into running around to complete tasks here and there out of simple curiosity. But I know very clearly that the better immersion is one where I vividly care about everything going on around me. As opposed to "adventuring and shit" for no good reason or motivation. I mean, that's basically turning games into work, is it not?
>Music Audible emotion >Painting Visible emotion >Literature Fabricated emotion Because literature is just a picture painted in a restricted medium >Film Projected emotion >Video Games Interactive emotion
>>287220893 Did I say otherwise? >>287220958 I agree that there's a lot open to interpretation but not nearly as much as music, art and literature. Everything is shown explicitly by various film techniques, the more effectively the director uses these techniques the more you limit the interpretation.
>>287221017 >Because kids are dumb, so what they like can't be art. I think you're underestimating the intelligence of children.
I feel like these days people make children dumb because they think children are dumb. They don't have to be. They shouldn't be.
>There is no meaning in something you frivolously play with. Why not? There's no meaning in entertainment, in a feeling of joy? There's no meaning in the social interaction a toy might be the catalyst for?
In a world where a filthy bathroom can be displayed in a museum, it's absolutely impossible for an action figure to be a piece of art?
>>287221065 >Because, really, what exactly are you doing in all of these games today when you go "adventuring"? Fucking around. I can't really explain it other than that. Looking for any little hidden things or shit, regardless of whether or not I know they're there.
>I mean, that's basically turning games into work, is it not? Not if you like adventuring and shit. I just like slowly going through RPGs and other similar types of games, soak it in. The appeal for me is the adventure even if its something I've done before. I mostly just wish most games that let you do adventuring and shit were a little bit harder, since you can usually break the system pretty hard unless you're doing for fun builds.
My main disagreement with what you're saying is having events tied to time limits, but I don't disagree with reactive quests or locations. I always liked when games would have characters, quests, and world events actually take notice of shit you did. Like, lets say a game actually did something with all my pointless adventuring. I don't know what, but lets say I built up a reputation as a wanderer or something, with quests and rumors within the game changing around that.
I also feel like a lot of games don't do neat hidden shit in them anymore, but that's another conversation altogether. I just wish I could have an encounter like the constellation monsters in Drakhen that just show up due to certain conditions to wreck my shit.
Yes yes, the "I can do whatever I want" argument. So Minecraft is obviously the best game in the world!
It isn't obviously. And the reason for that is also why GTA is shit and has been holding back game development for years.
Have you not understood a word of what I am saying? I am telling you that context is the most important aspect of a game. And context is necessarily improved by becoming as natural as possible where the player intuitively impacts the world in a meaningful way. Which as we've been arguing, has much to do with the development of implementing passage of time in a naturalistic way.
>>287218923 >those that were taken from a user's experience ... making the person posting it the story teller.
THIS. THIS IS WHAT VIDEO GAMES ARE GOOD AT. THIS IS WHAT THEY SHOULD STRIVE FOR.
The more choice a game gives a player, the more free the player is to express themselves through the game, constructing a "story" unique to them. There's a reason why older games have a better "feel" or "atmosphere." You weren't railroaded into the same CINEMATIC EXPERIENCE the devs are trying to force down your throat.
I could give no fucks about the creator. It's my toy, and I do what I want. I am the story teller. Me. Center stage.
There's more to say about games like dorf, zelda 1, MM2, Pokemon Red, and early CRPG's than anything the industry shits out today because they assumed the player WASN'T an idiot and could use the toy box to explore his own "narrative." All the games I gave as examples can be approached completely different by different people. No one person will have a similar experience.
It's this aspect that gives FUCKING VIDEO GAMES the edge over linear books and movies.
I'm fairly sure we don't actually disagree, but I'll go on for a bit. Because believe me, I've spent hundreds of hours in RPGs. In too many different games to count.
You are right that games need to be more reactive. And games have made some strides in creating fuller experiences where the illusion is not as evident. But the reason why I press on so hard on this issue of time (which to clarify isn't really about time LIMITS and more about time as a design consideration), is that this aspect is necessarily the most difficult one to address.
We can add more and more "reactivity" through more "hidden shit" as you mentioned. But that is a mere band-aid to the problem which requires surgery. Of which I am suggesting as a complete paradigm shift to game development that involves rethinking how to address the passage of time. Be it either driven by technological breakthroughs or sheer brute force, I fucking want devs to achieve the simulacra, the ultimatum in entertainment, compete immersion. Hence my ongoing ramblings.
>>287221041 Different anon here. You are thinking way too small. All you are thinking of is "timed underwater escort missions are stressful and I don't like that." Imagine if the game was actually trying to simulate a city where people go about their business and you have to track down leads and investigate beyond simply mowing through conversation choices. And choices you're making are affecting how the game plays out. You'd immediately notice if there WASN'T a timed element because people stand around like statues waiting for you to show up.
You don't need a Quest Timer pop-up in the corner to the screen to have a time limit. It's something that would come naturally as the game attempts a more complex and realistic simulation.
>>287220894 and you need a TV set to watch a movie, unbelievable, I need to buy on my own just to make them this favour and then I have to start it by myself, I should get the oscar, for without me there would be no display of this art. Movies are clearly destined to die.
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