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OST need re-up apparently
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Who was the hardest friend for you to brutally murder? Jimenez broke my heart but Chaos was so awful in SJ...
Threads seem to fall off the board somewhat quicker nowadays. We used to be able to go 60+ minutes after hitting the bump limit.
If you and your (possibly hypothetical) human SO both had to get transformed into a demon and live that way for the rest of your life (Which we'll say arbitrarily has a 100 year limit) which would it be? You can pick two different demons.
That's not saying much. And you're still wrong. Naoya is the only chaos hero period who's not dumb as a sack of rocks. And that's arguably cheating anyways, since he's only super smart since he's thousands of years old.
Yeah but I let things slide in fanart
Naoya isn't the best because he's a planner and a thinker. Chaos hero should be defined by his passions and spontaneous actions. Not solely his beliefs.
The guys that drew that Mastema and this?
Walter was a Casualry. They were kept ignorant and taught only the most basic of language in the kingdom until the Black Samurai arrived and passed around books in the mystic script.
Not being dumb does not equal the best. Dahn at least realized he fucked up when things went terribly wrong in KA.
I'll only provide you salvation in your darkest moments
Did you not get the DEEP, meaningful symbolism of the anime where he summons Satan against Bunny's angel Lucifer, who replaces the demon one in Record Breaker?
Not to mention the actual chaos guy in the game is Alcor, the one who specifically gets Lucifer and Asura unlocked through his fate, has Fallen Angels as minions, wears Red and Black, wants freedom for man, etc.
But I like Naoya. Can you blame me for thinking chaos is ridiculous when people legitimately make comments like these? Apparently to be true to chaos you have to actually have anger management issues, and not actually think before you do things. And mainline kind of reflects this.
>Finally decide to hop back onto SMTIV since I haven't finished it and have had it since launch
>Looking for my hook that will keep me playing
>Look at my Street Pass Demon to see if I can fuse it to make something useful
>Passed somebody apparently and my Oni transforms into Shiisaa
>Alright this piece of shit can't posiblly help me
>Check the fusions
>Access to Megido finally and Mediarama
Now all I need to do is take level it up twice and my protag can start his path to the Ultimate Magic User. What the earliest I can get a Megidola Demon?
That was an unfair summary, anger management issues? They simply are driven by passion; instead of being hesitant they take risks, instead of planning ahead they do what they feel is best in the moment, instead of living for someone else's ideals they live for their own.
You gotta be careful about the anime director. He's mentioned he's wanted to do a SJ anime in an interview for P3 and we all know how the P4 1 + Golden, DeSu2, and Dangan Ronpa animes he has done have turned out.
you end up with a chaotic world of STR in Yamato's first route. the only reason why people question if he's chaos is because he reasoned with Polaris, but he only did that because he's a shady asshole. he talks shit about Polaris on multiple occasions.
he appears to go neutral in BR now though.
For the subject or the style? I have lot's of SJ and Mastema stuff lying around I could post....
>instead of planning ahead they do what they feel is best in the moment,
Are you legitimately presenting this as if it was reasonable?
The problem is that his world is neither chaotic nor free, but a strict hierarchy based on merit.
It could. You'd have to concentrate a lot on the various demons he meets, along the lines of Casshern Sins. You'd also need a very competent and subtle director to gradually build the atmosphere of isolation and loneliness.
So a trait common amongst those possessing a similar belief is not at all related to that belief? I like Naoya too don't get me wrong I just felt like he wasn't a true reflection of Chaos they way other characters have been. I think DeSu has more specific alignments than simply Chaos and Law anyways.
anybody else just zone out when people start talking about DeSu2
And Polaris himself agrees that what Yamato wants is part of the order it envisions, and is even closer to human nature. Unlike Ronaldo's.
Plus humans are an organized force that values wisdom, strength, and intellect over birth, money, and connections. That's why a shota leads a group of weaklings and they all obey him, and he puts himself in danger to protect his subordinates while they go get help. Chaosfags would just go "Tough luck weaklings! World of STR" and leave them to die.
Chaosfags that tend to preach Meritocracies are hypocrites, something an NPC in IV even points out. They talk big about power deciding everything, but they go and preach that money is power.
There's weak people starving and dying in the street, demons on the loose, and people openly threatening to kill eachother and taking thrill from it. That also gives the impression of freedom, as long as you've got power.
Did you even watch the anime? He was neither evil nor irredeemable. They just made him the classic stoic, broody and unsmiling anime bishonen #98774243, with a past that somewhat justified it but not entirely. They basically turned him into fucking Sasuke Uchiha.
It might have worked out if they didn't pretend he was the same Yamato from the game.
I think it is, there are tons of moments in life where you don't have the time to think something through before you make a decision. People who can act in those situations are admirable to me. Lawfags need not understand as these moments wouldn't exist in their perfect order.
No. Don't you see. Some people ignore that the games with alignments define this as chaos, and insist that its law because games without alignments vaguely have some entity refer to it as a system. Nevermind that by that logic, all chaos is law in every game.
That has nothing to do with freedom though. You could either find your place in society as a useful contributing member, or you could die in the streets. It has a lot of law elements.
Beats me. It could be how they saw Yamato rather than who he was. That or they wanted it to be more dramatic.
They even went on a bit in the animation's artbook about how he's tsundere.
Well you responded to a post that was in response to Naoya which is why I mentioned him. Mutually exclusive? What do you mean, I didn't claim a person had to be a paragon of chaos to be a Chaos Hero. Just that I find those who are more reflective of this ideal to be more appealing as the Chaos Hero in SMT games.
>They even went on a bit in the animation's artbook about how he's tsundere.
That's retarded because game Yamato is yandere, which is nothing like tsundere. How do they get such an off interpretation of him. He's never fucking tsun.
I'm saying that being incapable of scheming, or acting without thinking isn't a feature of Chaos. Chaos DOES have basis in passion, which means that a lot of hotheaded people will choose Chaos. This does not make them the only population.
Except most people aren't doing that, and in fact the one old guy who people aren't telling "Tough Luck" to is a man who is not contributing to society.
He's trying to use his connections, which don't mean jack anymore to get food instead of helping. So a JP's and a nurse tell him he doesn't deserve jack.
Some people ignore that the spinoffs tend to have a different idea of what chaos is and that it isn't bound by the structure of mainlines chaos. That's why you don't have Abel telling the demons to be dicks to everyone in DeSu, Raidou in KA, or even Yamato's world. In his world humanity is still on top.
Even Majin Tensei II's time travel endings don't have that.
And if people noticed the divine order of the universe isn't controlled by YHVH or the Great Will, but Canopus and the Administrators.
Two different entities that seek order, but don't have to follow it the way YHVH or the Great Will would. Though Great Will is fine with Yosuga because it will help to limit freedom and chaos in the world.
Why is acting under pressure irrelevant? They wouldn't exist in a world of LAW because there would be perfect order, no competition, only the voice of God. No one would feel pressure to make decisions because they simply don't need to make decisions, God provides them with all they need.
> Lawfags need not understand as these moments wouldn't exist in their perfect order.
I don't get what part of any game you derived that law people can't act fast from. In II zayin straight up takes off to fight the center while you're still masturbating about your mom. Maybe johnathan freezed up at first, but later on gabriel praises you for having grown more such that even when outside of a system you can still do things by yourself competently.
What you are saying is more the reverse. Chaotic characters struggle to plan long term, at least in mainline. Lucifer can, but all the chaos heroes just kind of bumble around and act impulsively. Which almost gets jiminez killed before you rescue him.
Of course I agree, my taste for chaos heros is simply the Hot Head who is driven by passion. Like Walter and Jimenez and not like Naoya and that bitch from Nocturne.
Technically Jimenez bumbling around helped save his life, as he made sure to avoid the dangers.
He got infected with that virus in Delphinus, and tries to warn others not to get near.
The one time he acted really impulsively and it cost him was going after Bugaboo when he went deeper into Jack's Squad base.
It's not that they can't act fast as there's lots of examples of reactive decision making by Law Heros. It's more so they make these decisions based on a belief of a greater good usually dictated by the highest being of Law in whatever game you're playing. The Chaos hero on the other hand doesn't have his principles provided from him, he discovers them himself and relies on his experience rather than a dogma. Once people start getting possessed and fusing with demons though their beliefs become radical.
Chaos heroes often literally don't have ideals, and their side is decided reactively. So making it about "freethinking" is barking up the wrong tree. Law people aren't all just submitting mindlessly to whoever they deem a reasonable authority. That was only johnathan. Zayin absolutely acted of his own accord. Having ideals that deal with collectives by their nature involve having to accept other voices as reasonable too. So its meaningless to try to spin being selfish enough to not care what anyone else has to say as a good thing.
Jimenez is best at bumbling, also did anyone else enjoy the international feel of SJ. I always felt it strange the world wouldn't try to intervene in a lot of the japanese specific scenarios. It was nice to have a team from around the world trying to solve an issue that affects the entire world.
>Chaos heroes often literally don't have ideals
>So its meaningless to try to spin being selfish enough to not care what anyone else has to say as a good thing.
I think it's meaningless to spin being independent enough to make your own decisions based on your own experience with the world as a bad thing. You're also making that moral judgment from a law oriented (greater good/utilitarian) perspective so of course you only see selfishness in acts of self preservation or independance.
Perhaps they mistook "being an asshole" for being tsundere.
Even then, he's never an asshole to you in the game like he is to the anime's MC. He's completely open about how he feels, is extremely doting and fellates you at every opportunity which disqualifies him as tsundere. And most of the time in the game his being an asshole is justified and is just the logical cruel reality. He's in no position to be sugar coating things or holding people's hands.
The only time I can think of where he's an unjustified asshole is during his yandere meltdown when you fight him, where he just gets creepy.
I wonder what the games would be like with Alignment Swapped Heroes. Who would become more bangable?
Play the last fight of SMTIV on chaos. If you say you're righting for an ideal on it, its the "wrong" answer. You have to admit that you're in it entirely for yourself. Also, jiminez wasn't sitting around philosophizing before going chaos. He just got more angry and fused with a demon and somewhere along the line decided he was a demon now.
>If you say you're righting for an ideal on it, its the "wrong" answer
How is this proof of anything? Are all the "incorrect" boss options now supposed to be absolute? There are wrong answers if you're law and fighting lucifer too, so should I use that to attack law? And are you seriously saying that Jimenez has no ideals?
How is fighting for yourself not an Ideal. Fighting to live another day is one of the few things that drives the human race. I think at that point the question is asking if you're fighting for somebody else's ideals more so than ideals in general. I must admit I never did Chaos on SMT IV. Saving that for a future run. I tend to think of the drive behind each alignment as such:
Law: Fighting for Gods Ideal world
Neutral: Fighting for everyone's Ideal World
Chaos: Fighting for your own Ideal World.
I think I found SMTIV Lucifer's working at a bar in SMTII
his dialogue when you fight him is one of my favorite of his. the contrast in how he talks to you compared to your friends is hilarious. he just lets everything he's been thinking go.
I wasn't sure about neutrality, it's so different in each game. I say everyone not in the sense of what each individual wants but in the sense of what is best for regulations that affect everyone. Utilitarianism really if we wanna talk about ethics of alignment.
Law: Virtue Ethics
Chaos: Moral Realtivism
>I think it's meaningless to spin being independent enough to make your own decisions based on your own experience with the world as a bad thing.
And yet you have an issue. What if someone is independent and independently decides to be lawful? If there's a better answer to something, is it somehow nullified, because anything that might result in people taking it rather than acting based on whatever their whims are no matter how right or wrong is a problem? Why is that such a good ideal? And why does it ignore the contradictory nature that it includes in its concepts the conclusion it wants, since despite chaos being about freedom, they mean the freedom to act within their chaotic paradigm, not leave it.
What's more, this appeals to a type of freedom that doesn't even exist. People by their nature are biased to whatever they grow up surrounded with, and are told is normal. There aren't cultural paradigms that actually treat all ideas as equal, and somehow result in people more freely choosing. since anything that tries in itself is merely a new idea, and people are still influenced by the way these ideas are treated. Like chaos necessitating you think chaotically by saying you can be free... within its limits. And a lawful paradigm where people grow up in it, and its normal to them and then choose it since they see it as better than alternatives somehow chaos considers "different." This is basically clinging to an extreme form of libertarian free will that hasn't been taken seriously since the advent of psychology. Its absolutely right to consider it a standard that things like racism aren't treated equally as not being racist just to allow people "freedom" to choose it.
When dying on law in Iv, walter even partially realizes how self contradictory chaos is. If people really wanted it, they would have used their freedom to move towards it. An the fact that the move away when in it posits a big issue for it philosophically.
Sounds about right. This is why some of the Chaos options in King Abaddon pit Raidou against Dahn. Dahn has his own ideals and so does Raidou, something Mikaboshi also acknowledges about why Raidou would work for the Yatagarasu. They have similar goals even if they have different ideals.
Law is Utilitarianism. What makes you think that Neutral is? Law doesn't care about using methods like
GENOCIDEto realize their goals while for Neutral it would be a problem.
Neutral can be summed up with reset button pretty well. They fight for the status quo which obviously isn't everyone's Ideal World.
Our world is close to the world Neutral is fighting for in a lot of games and I'm sure nobody would call this world Ideal for a lot of people. Add SMT's lore to that with YHVH, Lucy and demons and you have not exactly a wonderful world to live in.
Representatives of Law are also much better at the subtle manipulations. Even Gabriel admits they could stop you since they know what Walter and Flynn are going to do, but would rather they realize how insignificant they really are and come groveling back to the Lord to beg his forgiveness.
So what you are saying is that TDE is the only true chaotic end, as it ends the system entirely.
You're wrong. Its been pretty consistent over time, ever since at least II.
Chaos: ethical egoism.
Law is pure utilitarianism. The concepts of its endings involve utilitarian thought experiments that take its points to far reaching conclusions. Its a common thing in utilitarian thought to ask whether if your goal is to maximize overall happiness, how seemingly crazy of things would actually be good to justify it. If the goal is to make people happy, and you know how to create a system where everyone is happy, wiping out a horde of people who if they continue will lead to more suffering, and replacing them can be seen positively. And since happiness comes before autonomy, if you know how to change them mentally you do that too. And in the end you create a system where everyone is happy for countless generations.
Virtue ethics is actually a slight misunderstanding of law. Since its been clear since at least II that its not about who is the most virtuous. Its about whoever works the best for the system. Virtue is secondary. Its just that it so happens that virtuous people work better for the system.
Neutral is deontology. Since it is about how certain things are inherently bad no matter the result, so you have to work with where you are. Isabeau on IV talking to you on law basically says directly that what your doing is wrong regardless of result. And that it values a balance of freedom and security that just "needs" to be in its particular balance, and deviating is wrong. Which is why both law and chaos criticize that some of its balances seem arbitrary.
Chaos is ethical hedonism. Which is basically the idea that its right for everyone to work for themselves, and agreements with others aren't inherently worthwhile other than that individuals benefit from them. Which may sound odd to call an ethical theory, but there's a reason most don't profess it.