It's funny how when tourney players start using/talking about stuff like Alomomola, Hawlucha, Starmie, Bronzong, and Mega Houndoom, no one gives a shit, and when a VGC player uses an oddball pick everyone goes "LOL YOU'LL NEVER SEE THIS SORT OF SHIT AT SMOGON."
>Mega Mom, Mega Gengar, Mega Luke Broken pieces of shit. You know how people say Gamefreak only balances for doubles? Well here's some good examples. >Blaziken, Deo-N/D/S, Genesect All former ubers who should never have been let down. Blaziken is broken. Deo-N is broken. Deo-D/S is cancer. Genesect is cancer. >Swagger/Baton Pass teams "Muh competitiveness" bullshit that, at the very least, did not hurt the health of the meta >Aegislash WOW LOOK one questionable ban. One. That Haunter explicitly said "I am totally in favor of retesting this."
>>20569948 And all this is attributed to Genesect ban? Okay.
>every Mega slowly getting banned Dude the last mega to get banned was Luke and that was over six months ago.
Genies are cancer though and should get suspected.
>>20570204 it sounds like they ban whatever is strongest at the time, then when the second or third strongest takes top place/gains in usage, they ban it as well because it got too strong since its checks/counters were taken away, and the cycle continues until every damn mega and a few regulars are banned
>>20570186 I'm sorry, did you want me to write an essay of why Genesect is cancer? >free muhmentum whenever it's on the field >VoltTurnVoltTurnVoltTurnVoltTurn >no prediction required >dozens of sets >le e-belt ruse >checks lots of things (you know, like any stronger scarfer) so it fools people into thinking it's actually good to have
Gosh we can totally have a meta with Genesect, because the reason to ban it boils down to "we don't like having it." I guess we shouldn't ban the genies, either, even then practically everyone dislikes them and feels they have a negative impact on the meta. Hey let's bring down Reshiram, too, cause I mean the only reason it's banned is because people wouldn't like it if it were allowed.
>Hence "slowly" Six months inbetween bans is pretty damn slow. By the time gen 7 comes, at this rate we'd have banned, what, four additional megas max?
And I'll just let you know now that X-zard is the one remaining mega that has any chance of being banned. Mawile has been on the table for some months, now. I'm not saying more won't be suspected, but it's very, very unlikely they'll ever end up being banned. While Y-zard and Pinsir are strong, they're one of those strong things that have a number of good counters and no real way to get around those counters, unlike Mawile, as well as numerous checks making them easy to revenge kill. Oh and pebbles weakness.
>>20569948 >all megas are being banned Guess what 4 megas have been banned.....name one that was a bad idea. This argument pisses me off more than anything else, the only megas that have been tested or banned are fucking broken. The only other megas that haven't been tested in OU Zard X: Maybe in the future but I doubt iy Zard Y: Yeah.....no Pinsr: sneaky pebbles and Manectric say hi Manectric: It's good not great Medicham and Heracross: Birdspam sends their regards Garde: Scizor Scizor: Nope Venu: hahahahahahahaha Chomp and Tyranitar: checked by a ton of shit so I doubt it so banning all megas eh?
>>20571146 this OU mons are OU because they get splashed into teams that need their role filled. UU mons are UU because they get put in teams where they work and have synergy with their partners. of course, even half of smogon thinks OU are the only good mons, and use them exclusively. That's why their ban lists are so convoluted, nobody thinks to make strategies with UU mons that could check what most of OU can't. the community filled up with retards pretty quick since they started.
>>20569220 >Amoonguss is generally the better re-director but everyone is prepared for it. Amoonguss would be if Game Freak didn't hit Rage Powder and Stun Spore hard by making Safety Goggles and buffing the Grass type.
>>20575526 Honestly, I'm a big proponent for tiers not being huge on viability. Basically, exactly what >>20574317 said; tiers are usage only and nothing more.
But you need to PLAY a pokemon to it's advantages, and in a lot of cases, a Pokemon will be simply and outright out-classed. Pachirisu worked because it had Follow Me (a very rare move), and Nuzzle, (which paralyzes and breaks sashes in one turn). It was played for the small niche it had and, granted, was played very well and utilized accordingly, but this does NOT mean that "hurr any pokemon can b good if u luv it enuff xD" shit.
>>20575565 >But you need to PLAY a pokemon to it's advantages, and in a lot of cases, a Pokemon will be simply and outright out-classed. Pachirisu worked because it had Follow Me (a very rare move), and Nuzzle, (which paralyzes and breaks sashes in one turn). Not just that, the Volt Absorb is synergistic with Gyarados and Follow Me, and Super Fang is also a deceptively good move on a supportmon.
>>20570361 What a lot of people like him don't realize is that Smogon tries to create a field that's as competitive (by which I mean skill-based) as possible, while not having a Meta built around one thing or counters to that one thing (Mega Kang). There is stuff that *needs* banned, without question (Speed Boost/Mega Blazekin), and while I don't agree with all of their rules, I'd rather have Smogon Rules than TPCi or No rules at all because a) as I said, some things are just stupid OP b) I don't enjoy doubles
>>20577320 Mixed, sub toxic, special fast, physical fast, ks 3 attacks, sub 3 attacks, bulky sd, fast sd, head smash lure, autotomize wp Not to mention that thing has the most ridiculous stats in both offense and defense. Name me one counter in singles (do yourself a favor and look up what a counter is first) and we can talk.
>>20577414 It's more the fact that if you guess the set wrong you lose your initial counter without any backdraw for the opponent. Remember that hp ground genesect lure set (probably not because you are a sub 1400 shitter) - initial switchin heatran comes in - 2hkoed - switch out on the uturn - no backdraw for the opponent, you lose shit. Now let's say you predict that set and go to your gliscor because it walls that specific set - well guess what he was ebelt with ice beam instead. The huge variety of sets turns counters into shacky checks and mere switchins. It's easy to prepare for a mon with 2 sets, even 4 or 5 sets, it's impossible to prepare for a mon with 6-10 viable sets (like gene or aegis)
This was my face when I realized that the majority of the "pokémon community" are aspies, as seen from the crowd.
But yet they seemed so happy. Also the pachirisu will be the new ebin helix fossil meme and every other kid will use pachirisu on their team and the ebin le meme internet/pokemon culture will reference this many times.
Pokémon is a game where you should use your creativity, but instead we see the copypastateams everywhere, with slight changes.
The pachirisu was great, since it caught many off guard, too bad it's once in a life time moment of using an surpirise element like that.
>>20577320 >>20577414 As opposed to popular belief, shit never gets banned for having too many sets. Like I think Infernape has six different sets but it's not even good. And Clefable has like a dozen sets but it's not broken.
When something simultaneously has multiple of the following traits...
>is really strong 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 243-288 (71.2 - 84.4%) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 406-478 (119 - 140.1%)
>too bulky to reliably revenge kill, or simply too fast 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lucario: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 314-372 (81.9 - 97.1%)
>has strong priority 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 235-277 (65 - 76.7%) 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 165-195 (45.7 - 54%)
>has multiple sets or can lure in its counters and get rid of them without support 0- SpA Life Orb Bisharp Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 255-302 (64.7 - 76.6%)
>breaks Stall Gothitelle
>requires next to zero support to do its job Plenty of stuff
...it's at least worth looking in to. There are things that are bulkier, faster, stronger, have stronger priority, require less support, have more sets, and break stall harder than things that have been banned, but when you have something this is strong AND bulky/fast AND has strong priority AND breaks stall AND doesn't need any support AND HAS MULTIPLE SETS, you have something that's maybe a tad too strong for the meta.
I don't get why people think smogon hates shit that has multiple sets. But keep shitposting.
>>20578452 It's a lure. It's purpose is to 2HKO Quagsire, that's its only purpose and it can do that with a negative nature. It's not the best example because running Grass Knot on Bisharp makes it less effective and is only good for counterteaming, but the point is there's a lot of stuff that can change up its counters by running different moves or have unpredictable coverage (e.g. HP Fire vs. HP Grass Greninja,) and they're not broken.
>>20578562 Hippo actually has decent special bulk, is only 2x weak and a lot of sets will run a lot of SDef EVs cause it's better at taking on electric-type special attackers than strong physical attackers.
>>20570070 >blaziken >broken talonflame resists both of his stabs, and can one shot with brave bird, and since it has priority speed boost doesn't mean shit. choice band azumarril can 2hko it with aqua jet, while blaziken (unboosted) can only 3hko it at best
>>20578766 >it has two checks so this means it's not broken It not only has incredible dual STABs, great offenses, a wide movepool with high-powered STABs and tons of coverage+Knock Off, Speed Boost, Swords Dance and Bulk Up, but it also has that whole Speed Boost+Baton Pass thing which is sort of a big deal (getting speed boost shot Scolipede up from NU to OU.)
>>20583756 >I mean, most tourneys do boil down to Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon and sometimes Donkey Kong. I was under the impression that DK was a trash-tier character in Melee. Are you sure you actually watch the tournaments? I see Jigglypuff more often than either Captain Falcon or DK.
>>20583748 >Parental Bond doesnt activate on moves that hit multiple targets (earthquake) >Mega Audino gets Healer, Sceptile is LightningRod >Mega Lucario exists >Blaziken in general >Sand teams in doubles >Water/Fire/Grass Pledge >Florges >Zygarde's signature move etc. etc.
There's countless pieces of evidence. The game is not intended for Singles Play or designed around it AT ALL except for the in-game shitmons.
Note: Gale Wings is post-game only, so it doesnt have to be balanced for story level of play, as no opponent will ever be using it nor will the player have access to it pre-E4. And the head of the battle team stated that XY were designed so that players can go straight into Battle Spot as soon as they beat the E4, which is why they made breeding so much faster. Less time spent between main game and post-game multiplayer
>>20584037 The Earthquake change is really the only thing that is actually balance related, and you can see how well that worked out for them.
If the rest is supposed to be evidence of something, it's that GF is absolute shit at balance. It's easier to point that out in Singles since there are so many strategies that are more powerful there, but VGC is just proof that left to its own devices Doubles is as shit as singles in terms of balance.
>>20584230 Sand Teams work better in doubles because you can abuse and set it at the same time, plus TTar's pursuit is more useful. Audino-M, Sceptile-M, Land's Wrath, and Florges are all completely useless outside of Doubles, with Audino-M and the pledges pretty much worthless in singles too. Klefki is meant for doubles as well with Prankster spikes + dual screen As for GF being shit at balance, its because they dont have 20,000 people balancing it nor do they make constant patches to fix the problems the fanbase discovers, because that means changing how something works in the game itself, even outside of Competitive. That and they've never had the opportunity to put out patches before so its something they shy away from
Prediction doesn't guarantee wins unless the opponent always behaves the way you predict, which they don't have to do with Aegislash, because it can hardly be KOd by anything. I suggest reading through the old suspect test thread if you're still clinging to the competitive argument. They are indeed 50/50s and no amount of skill will increase your chances of coming out on top.
>Literally every team has either M-Venusaur or Amoonguss, the only exception being hyper offense teams. >Keldeo and genies most likely on 75% of teams you encounter. >denisSsS disciple-faggots yipping at the chance to test out whatever new team he's come up with and swelling the upper ladder with that cancer. >The odd Sand or Rain team, and even then they always have the same fucking staples: Politoed, Kingdra, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn.
I've spectated a shitload of high-rank matches and the weirdest thing I saw was Infernape.
What? Not only do people switch out a fraction of the time as Singles but they also have Protect to scout and TTar has to target the correct Pokemon.
Weather is still almost as good as it was pre-nerf, whereas Singles has gone from weather wars to mostly weatherless. The nerf was a far bigger game changer
>Audino-M, Sceptile-M, Land's Wrath, and Florges are all completely useless outside of Doubles
Doubles Audinos use Regenerator as well, Healer is a shit ability everywhere. Lightningrod hasn't been useless in dubs since B/W. Zygarde isn't even allowed in any VGC format. Florges is still a bulky as shit wall in singles, its abilities aren't much more useful in doubles and it'll lose any relevance as soon as Sylveon gets Hyper Voice tutors.
>Klefki is meant for doubles as well with Prankster spikes + dual screen
The fuck would anyone use spikes in doubles
>As for GF being shit at balance, its because they dont have 20,000 people balancing
You don't need 20,000 people to know that Nidoking should get +10 to its SpA, not its attack. GF is just shit at balance period, doubles is inherently less broken than singles but any idea that it's GF's holy grail is retarded when they don't know shit and don't even bother to support it in-game outside of a handful of moves/abilities.
ITT: Butthurt faggots that know nothing about competitive so they take it out on smogo. You act like Smogon is one person who bans stuff after he loses to it when in reality its the best players in the community voting on it.
God you faggots are annoying.
>Inb4 lel umad feg XD
Get a better argument. Show me calcs that prove shit isn't broken.
>>20586363 >>20586363 >best players in the community >Smogon Ha. No. The best players in the community are the ones on the top of Link Battles, and in the VGC, the ones that don't give a shit about Smogon. >Show me calcs that prove shit isn't broken. Burden of proof, Smogon should have to prove that their awful tiers are anything but arbitrary shit, and that their bans are anything but a horde of whiny fags bitching whenever they get beaten fair and square.
People actually enjoy using other pokemon than aegislash, talonflame, garchomp, rotomwash, gliscor, hydreigon, blaziken, licario, kangaskan and greninja. Without these pokemon in a non tier environment you are fucked. Smogon solves that by implementing tiers that don't force you to have a mind numbingly dull team every damn time.
>>20587643 And if you play Link Battles, and play in VGC, you see shitloads of other pokes. In fact, I'd say that the teams are more diverse there, because people are able to use all 700+ Pokemon, instead of being forced into using COMPLETELY ARBITRARY tiers that are broken beyond repair. And to add to that, banning Pokemon doesn't fix anything, it only makes the problem worse because not only does it reduce the number of strategies that you can use, effectively squashing any kind of originality, it simply replaces one overpowered move/Pokemon with another, which then becomes banned, in a neverending cycle. To top it all off, it is the opinion of just about everyone at Smogon that all of the bans and tiers and everything have to be used because the game is broken, not their system, despite it being nothing but a circlejerk of asspain, because every fucking ban comes down to people crying over the fact that they keep losing to something, without ever even taking into consideration the multitude of ways to work around strategies. But no, Gamefreak is just a shitty developer that doesn't know what they're doing. Fuck do I wish Masuda had half the balls that Sakurai did.
>>20587984 Did you drop out of high school, or is the school system so shit now that they don't teach the slightest basic foundation in real logic? Do you even fucking know what "Burden of Proof" means?
>>20588329 smogon tiers do not forcibly "stop people from using hundreds of Pokemon for arbitrary reasons", so it seems you're quite fluent in stupid. you're able to use anything below OU in the OU tier. unless you want to argue that people only use a small subset of pokemon with any degree of consistency, in which case i'd like you to look at every pokemon metagame ever.
>>20588709 The tiers are literally defined by usage, having nothing to do with stats. And then, when a Pokemon like Meditite is found to be overpowered for its arbitrary tier, it's banned completely instead of being moved up, because Smogon's tiers are perfect and Gamefreak should base the game around them.
>>20588518 Because most people dont have the brain capacity to build a pokemon and/or a team for their special snowflake pokemon that can effectively take down a team of copy-paste. So to feel cool with their special snowflake team, they go to uu
>>20589053 More like there are just different threats and someone's shitty special snowflake special will be able to handle the big threats of UU better than OU because they are inherently weaker pokemon to deal with.
Everyone on here acts like smogon is the law. Why the fuck does it matter if one person plays smogon and one doesn't. This arguement is wasted on something that doesn't affect anyone. If you think the tiers are bullshit don't use them! If you are tired of the same pokemon again and again use smogon in a different tier. Simple as shit!
>>20595370 >Chesnaught on UU:the team Chesnaught is garbage in UU since the best offensive threats are fire or flying (in the cast of Aerodactyl). Hell, even Florges is quickly falling out of favor since Blissey does the special wall thing better while defensive Aromatisse does almost everything Florges does as a fairy but better.
UU the team would be Victini/Infernape, Blissey, Blastoise, Hydreigon, something with rocks, and Lucario.
>>20595430 >arbitrary tiers The tiers are literally based on popularity. >forced to use OU Pokemon More like forced to not use OU, Uber, or BL pokemon. >banning Pokemon reduces originality But it does you retard, every ingenious new strategy that can steamroll all of the old ones is banned, instead of people trying to think of ways around it, and as a result, Smogon's metagame essentially limits every pokemon to only one or two strategies, and completely stagnates the game. >GF not complete shit at balance >"Have you ever made a game?" Smogon's idea of "balance" is even worse than Meleefags' >Smogon only bans what it can't beat! :^) Explain Swagger and Minimize.
God, it was so easy to discuss competitive before all the underage/reddit/tumblr came flooding in for XY. Nobody understands how Smogon works and you can't talk about teambuilding or general questions about tiers or certain Pokemon without some shitter going all >LE PLAYING BY SMOGONS RULES LEL
People need to actually understand how Smogon works before shitting all over it.
>>20600981 /vp/'s been anti-smogon for as long as I remember, and I've been here pretty close since the beginning, when Moot had those two stickies up. I do agree that /vp/ is fucking shit at discussing competitive, though. Even Reddit's better at that than /vp/. There's a reason why Smogon's founder did a Q&A there and not /vp/.
>>20602821 Hydro Pump, Focus Blast, etc. don't rely on luck. You're just getting more power (as opposed to Surf/Scald) or better coverage (as opposed to HP Ground/Fire) at the cost of a chance to be screwed by the RNG. It's not a luck-based strategy, as it doesn't rely on luck to win even if there's an RNG involved.
Evasion, on the other hand, relies on luck to avoid hits you wouldn't normally be able to take. It's blatantly a luck based strategy.
>>20603161 >More power at the cost of a CHANCE to be screwed by the RANDOM number generator It is literally the same thing, only minimize actually gives you a better chance if you max evasion. If you use say, Thunder, you are relying completely on luck for it to hit. If you use any move with a secondary effect, you are relying completely on luck for it to take effect. The only difference is Minimize flusters the sentient mass of crybabies called Smogon, because they get beaten with it and they don't want to bother working around it.
>>20603362 >If you use say, Thunder, you are relying completely on luck for it to hit. Which is nice and all, but nothing particularly crippling (as compared to giving out free turns like candy to your opponent because your moves keep missing) will happen if you get hit by a lower acc. move as opposed to a 100% acc. but less powerful move. Specs Kingdra Surf in Rain or Specs Kingra Hydro Pump in rain: both hurt like sin.
>If you use any move with a secondary effect, you are relying completely on luck for it to take effect >you are relying >RELYING No you're not. No one 'relies' on Flamethrower to BRN. No one 'relies' on Ice Beam to FRZ. Just because the RNG can just randomly decide to screw over one or the other player doesn't mean you're abusing luck. Like I think Scald is the only real luck-based move, but, as a singular move, there are ways around it with status absorbers, special attackers, Lum berry, and clerics.
>The only difference is Minimize flusters the sentient mass of crybabies called Smogon, because they get beaten with it and they don't want to bother working around it. Gosh, if you could tell me how to fit in whatever could handle most evasion users (I'll give you a hint: it's not no-miss moves and it's not phazing) while ALSO having a gameplan for Mega Mawile, Mega X-zard, Mega Pinsir, Keldeo, Terrakion, Mega Gyaraods, Mega Tyranitar, Sand Rush Excadrill, Landorus, Thundurus, Azumarill, Garchomp, Greninja, Talonflame, Dragonite, Mega Venusaur, Mega Garde, Mega Cham, Mega Hera, Lando-T, Breloom, Mamoswine, and Bisharp, and not even counting all the less dangerous/common threats (as well as defensive threats) that are liable to screw you over should you ever face a team with it.
>>20603362 >>20603965 You know, maybe if this was ADV OU where it was just a circle-jerk of maybe 30 viable (not OU: just viable) pokemon, I would not have a problem with handling evasion because the pressure on teambuilding was not as high. But in XY where we have these ridiculously powerful pokemon and strategies, and many of them, to the point where it's exceedingly hard or even downright impossible to account for all of them? And you really think it's reasonable to ALSO have to take into account strategies that don't rely on good teambuilding, predictions or plays, but just fucking RNG? Why?
>>20598909 >The tiers are literally based on popularity Well it's based on usage above a certain threshold. There's a reason they don't use 00 stats anymore. There isn't a better way to categorize power when even democratic suspect tests take forever and are highly contested by people who think Furfrou is M-Gengar counter or Slurpuff is a M-Kanga counter.
>More like forced to not use OU, Uber, or BL pokemon. In UU and below? That's kind of the point of UU. If you want to use all balanced Pokemon play OU, the lower tiers are for letting underdogs shine when top threats are removed.
>every ingenious new strategy that can steamroll all of the old ones is banned If a strategy is so powerful that it can beat all others, then people only use that strategy and the meta becomes stale since no one uses anything else. The Aegislash ban ended up causing a bunch of other Pokemon to rise up in the ranks of OU because it was holding down the viability of a lot of mons simply by being a defining threat of the meta.
>Explain Swagger and Minimize. Luck-based strategies. I mean, SwagPlay is entirely possible to beat, but you have to PP stall out all 6 Pokemon on the swagplay team. Which as you might guess, is not exactly fun or good for the meta.
I mean, do you really think that competitive players, who are only in it to win, are not going to use what's strongest? Top ladder players were abusing the shit out of Deoxys and Genesect, but they still voted to ban it. Because the point of competition is to win so if a strategy is obviously stronger then you switch to it. And that's what happens when something like M-Kanga is allowed in the metagame, you get usage rates of 40+% and anyone who doesn't use it has to build their team specifically to counter it.
>>20603977 >You know, maybe if this was ADV OU where it was just a circle-jerk of maybe 30 viable (not OU: just viable) pokemon,
Eww, as someone who used to play Gen 3 back in the day, it wasn't that centralized when it came to viable mons. Even back then evasion abuse has been banned. Shit, it's been banned since the days of Gen 1, predating even Smogon. Even Smogon's competitors such as PokeRealm (R.I.P.) and Pokemon Online have evasion banned. Really, any competitive ruleset that goes on will inevitably ban evasion abuse in singles, because it's that ridiculous of a strategy.
>>20603965 >>20603977 >>20604068 >nothing particularly crippling (as compared to giving out free turns like candy to your opponent because your moves keep missing Which is the point essentially, of the move minimize, to get extra turns. There are plenty of moves that do the same, just in differing ways, and they're considered fine despite relying on luck the same way, like Thunder Wave and Spore. People rely on Air Strike to Flinch, people rely on moves like Focus Punch to land, and people rely on Focus Band to save them, all of which essentially boil down to luck. >it's not no-miss moves and it's not phazing Well why the fuck not? Lock On, Taunt, Stomp, Steamroller, Body Slam, Dragon Rush, Flying Press, and Phantom Force all fuck up Minimize. >usage above a certain threshold So, popularity. >If you want to use all balanced Pokemon play OU See >>20588518 >then people only use that strategy and the meta becomes stale since no one uses anything else People only fall into a rut with the strategy if they are completely uncreative, and cannot think of any other strategy, which I suppose is what happens with Smogon, which is why Smogon's meta is painfully stale. In the real world however, outside of the circlejerk of bitching, when a new strategy comes along that steamrolls everything before it, people come up with new strategies to counter and check it, and suddenly you have more and more possibilities as time goes on, because people are given free reign. New strategies come into being because they CAN overtake old ones, that's the point, it's progress. If you instead ban every new strategy, you halt progress completely, and then you have a metagame centralized around one or two strategies, that change to an even older one upon each one getting banned. Which is what Smogon is. >>20604093 >Game Freak is so dumb, a forum full of whiny kids is way better at balancing a game they understand nothing about than the fucking designers of the game.
>>20604364 >Which is the point essentially, of the move minimize, to get extra turns. And the point of the move Sheer Cold is to OHKO anything that doesn't have Sturdy. That doesn't make it okay when the aim of a competitive game is 'the better player wins because they are better at the game.'
The comparison is the effects of using an Evasion move compared to the benefits of running a low acc. move over a high one. Using Surf (90 BP) over Hydro Pump (110 BP) means you will hit ~20% harder, but at the cost of getting screwed by RNG every once in awhile. Hitting a little harder is not as beneficial as making your opponent hemorrhage their turns, which is why it's not a good comparison.
>There are plenty of moves that do the same, just in differing ways, and they're considered fine despite relying on luck the same way, like Thunder Wave and Spore. Sleep clause exists and Thunder Wave is not used
>People rely on Air Strike to Flinch Togekiss is the only thing that can reliably use that and Togekiss is shit.
>people rely on moves like Focus Punch to land This isn't luck, this is prediction. And Focus Punch is usually used with Sub to remove that element, too.
>and people rely on Focus Band to save them, all of which essentially boil down to luck. No one uses Focus Band, it's a waste of an item slot.
> In the real world however, outside of the circlejerk of bitching, when a new strategy comes along that steamrolls everything before it, people come up with new strategies to counter and check it, and suddenly you have more and more possibilities as time goes on, because people are given free reign. New strategies come into being because they CAN overtake old ones, that's the point, it's progress. Yes this totally happens when you don't ban things. See: Mega Mom on 40% or something of teams in every battlespot format.
You really think multiple people wouldn't think of counter-strategies when people with functional braincells can make movesets and spreads on their own? Pokemon isn't super complicated, if you can see it's BST and movepool alone you can make a decent team in minutes. The issue is that some pokemon just plain outclass others, and unlike fighting games where you can outwit someone, Pokemon is heavily tied to numbers. Some pokemon are just not going to beat others unless the user is a total retard, and an 'anything goes' meta would end up being the same thing Karenfags bitch about: A setting where only a handful of Pokemon matter, and all the others are either supports or deadweight.
>>20604636 >Sleep clause exists and Thunder Wave is not used *for the purpose of the PAR hax. It's speed control.
>>20604364 >If you instead ban every new strategy, you halt progress completely, and then you have a metagame centralized around one or two strategies, that change to an even older one upon each one getting banned. Yes because OU is totally centered around one or two strategies.
>>20604364 >Lock On Poor distribution, waste of a moveslot in every situation that doesn't involve evasion (it is also horribly inefficient. Imagine every move you make having Fly's charge-up turn.) >Taunt Taunt can miss. >Stomp Name one good user of Stomp. >Steamroller Exactly two FE pokemon get this, only one has STAB and Scolipede has a case of 4MSS as it is >Body Slam Even with 170 BP, this is not going to do much without STAB. >Dragon Rush Poor distribution >Flying Press One pokemon gets this >Phantom Force Name one good user of Phantom Force. Actually, name one good physically-orientated ghost >all fuck up Minimize. Provided the opponent is not immune/resistant (Chandelure and Body Slam/Stomp, Clefable and Dragon Rush/Steamroller) or is using Double Team (every pokemon gets this) over Minimize.
>>20604364 Most people do not play UU only, OU is far and away the most popular tier. If you were any bit as knowledgeable as you pretend to be you'd know this since they publish stats about it every fucking month.
Got a better way? Given that it focuses on stronger players, it works pretty well. There's no other objective measure to use.
>People only fall into a rut with the strategy if they are completely uncreative, and cannot think of any other strategy, which I suppose is what happens with Smogon, which is why Smogon's meta is painfully stale. In the real world however, outside of the circlejerk of bitching, when a new strategy comes along that steamrolls everything before it, people come up with new strategies to counter and check it, and suddenly you have more and more possibilities as time goes on, because people are given free reign
Can you be any more delusional? Pokemon is not balanced in any way whatsoever, there are Pokemon that are clearly stronger and more versatile than others and they will always show up. Garchomp, M-Kanga and Aegislash are everywhere, even Sejun's team was pretty standard VGC fare apart from Pachirisu. The dominant strategy doesn't change at all, you just have pieces of tech like Pachi that come and go alongside the same Pokemon you see on every team.
>Game Freak is so dumb, a forum full of whiny kids is way better at balancing a game they understand nothing about than the fucking designers of the game.
Most competitive know more about the game than GF does. GF explicitly said they didn't expect people to use special Aegislash, despite the fact that they gave it fucking 150 SpA. Yet competitive players figured it out in days.
These are also the people who gave us Nidoking with +10 Attack despite the fact that it almost exclusively runs special sets, Scrappy Pangoro, and I don't even want to talk about Gourgeist's special movepool. These aren't just mistakes, they're ignorant and amateurish mistakes.
>At the moment, are there any Pokémon that are being used to battle in a way you didn’t expect, Mr. Morimoto?
>Mr. Morimoto: Oh, there are already plenty of them. Among them, I would say that what’s happened with Aegislash has been really unexpected. We really thought of Aegislash as a Pokémon that would battle using primarily physical attacks. But recently, there has been an increase in Aegislash using special moves, like the Steel-type move Flash Cannon.
Something that I've never seen brought up in answer to this argument: the moves all have accuracy greater than 50%. OHKO moves have accuracy LESS THAN 50%. In both of those cases you have either a larger chance or a smaller chance to come out on top. But their not coinflips. And becomes they're not coinflips, they are not purely determined by luck, although RNG does play a factor.
>>20605332 Chaos was a frequent visitor to Serebii Forums which hated Smogon just as much as /vp/ does, and was worse about it considering that mods weren't afraid to ban without cause. I don't think he's scared to post in places where people disagree with him.
>>20595462 I play UU and I seldom if ever see any "stallfags". Hell, my main UU team is mostly offensive >>20604364 >>20604636 >Air Strike >>20604823 >name one good physically-orientated ghost Golurk and Dusknoir come to mind. Yes, offensive Dusknoir is possible
I don't get why people give smogon shit for evasion clause when it's been a thing since Gen 1, before smogon existed. Various simulators/servers have disallowed evasion for a very long time, for good reason.
Evasion makes the game go from (mostly) skill-based to mostly luck-based, and it's just extremely annoying. If you seriously think evasion is okay, then you're completely misunderstanding the point of competition in general, and also possibly think that the current "answers" to evasion are adequate (they are not.)
>>20608124 >Smogon bans Pokemon that are overcentralizing. Not really, no. They ban and limit Pokemon that are overcentralizing in a bad way. Overcentralization is a myth, a boogieman of sorts that players for and against the various simulators point fingers at and say "See this shit? This is the problem!" without actually correcting it.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the content originated from them. If you need IP information for a Poster - you need to contact them. This website shows only archived content.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content you can contact me at email@example.com with that post and thread number and it will be removed as soon as possible.