Previous thread -
This thread is for the spirited discussion of CRT displays - Televisions, monitors and projectors used for the playing of retro games!
>Try to keep it /vr/-related: Nothing past 5th gen(+Dreamcast). Slight OT might be okay if related to CRTs (E.G. 16:9 compatible models, flatscreens, etc.) Systems with backwards compatibility are also pretty safe territory, assuming you're focusing on the older games. PC CRTs are also a-ok.
>Produce OC! Get out your real cameras and take beautiful pictures of your CRTs displaying recognizable characters with the kind of beautiful accuracy that brings tears to the eyes of young and old alike! If you take 100 photos, at least one of them will turn out alright! (maybe)
>Try to be as detailed as possible when asking info on a specific model. As always, google is your friend, and we are your friends with benefits. Older archived threads aren't a bad place to look either.
>Share appreciation for others choice of technology and personal philosophy of gaming. As always show courtesy in your discussion and moderate yourselves first.
CRT Pastebin (WIP): http://pastebin.com/1Ri5TS3x
S-Video Pasta: http://pastebin.com/rH2h6C7W
Thread Survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1PhdXJYwA8xModrTV1Yt-i1tvNgwiagpeBx0m_xNIVtc/viewform?edit_requested=true&fbzx=9009823977812318933
Previous thread's OP here. Finishing off the rest of the Ninja Assault CRT discussion here. Heard back from John Yates this morning:
"I noticed what you say about the ninja assault monitor. It's a 39" wells Gardner monitor, and I put an NOS chassis on it. IIRC I can make the issue disappear if I turn the brightness down, but then the guns don't work as well. Common gun game issue. "
What came up in my search for a 39" Wells Gardener Arcade/Showcase CRT was this http://videotronicsuk.com/spare-parts/monitors-chasis/39in-wells-gardner-digital-crt-monitor.html
So I'd say case closed on that one. Have at it if anyone has 255 GBP and trust in whatever (stupidly cheap) flat rate shipping service that UK website uses, then there you go. Relatively cheap and super rare presentation size Arcade RGB CRT.
>fuzzy and blurry
>open blinds or a lamp and you can barely see anything because of glare
>high pitched whine from tubes
Plenty of 5th gen games look fine on an LCD screen, you don't need an old hunk of shit TV to enjoy an old game.
My laptop shows Super Castlevania crystal clear and pixel perfect, it's beautiful and there's no need for a shit TV or fugly filter.
After much difficulty with my camera (and resorting to partially blocking the flash with my finger), I managed a somewhat decent shot of the strange blurry quality I'm getting with Dracula X Chronicles' port of Symphony of the Night. Then again, the non-native resolutions + not a true line-doubled 480p output from the PSP are the most likely explanations for that.
Another shot without the flash.
Full res version here: https://a.pomf.cat/cvuvbo.JPG
Composite is the way I prefer to play NES games because to me the colours of rgb modded NES look wrong. I admit this is 100% subjective.
With composite terrain that is meant to look like earth generally looks brown, with component it looks reddish. I think Megaman should have a white face, not Simpsons yellow.
>I think Megaman should have a white face, not Simpsons yellow.
I can respect that, the faces do look odd. But look at the lines on the boxes around the robot masters. So much smoother and clean through rgb.
Also, to my recall, if whites are coming up yellow-ish, that's evidence of the Playchoice 10 PPU's Pallete or "Garish" Pallete on the NESRGB. Might want to double-check that.
On a more relevant note, have some Popful Mail (having reconnected my SCD).
Also, just use the report button, people. It's global rule 3.
BVM D20F1U, actually. Some argue that 900TVL has overly thick scanlines but it doesn't really bother me (particularly at a distance).
It should degauss automatically on startup, if I'm correct. I'm not too familiar with onboard PVM controls but every BVM controller I've seen also has a dedicated degauss button.
If a power-on degauss isn't removing discoloration from magnetization, then there might be a problem with the internal degaussing circuitry (barring convergence/aperture grill damage issues).
there is a button on my TV that has the 3.58 TRAP
next to my degausse button, I push it...nothing happens. what is it.
>I push it...nothing happens.
That's likely because you're not using composite.
>what is it.
Forcing Y/C separation circuits to use the 3.58Mhz trap filter, I guess.
Usually this filter is to remove the color subcarrier (either 4.43Mhz for PAL or 3.58Mhz for NTSC) from the composite signal to generate Y/Luminance.
I can't tell you why there's a button for this when most multistandard sets activate the right filter automatically without problems.
The 20L5 seems a bit overvalued here. A normal PVM + a PC CRT would give you the same functionality, while splitting the usage hours between the two. 20L5 just has the convenience of only needing one monitor.
I recently got myself an 20m2mdu. After I turned the sub contrast in the service menu to max I used the 240p test suite to do the fine tuning. After I adjusted the black level, I used 100 IRE option to set the right contrast.
So here is my question: How normal is it for a PVM to bleed the whites over the scanlines when the contrast is set high? As I said previously I set the sub contrast to max so I would get everything out of the display if I liked. When I turn the contrast knob over the middle postion, the scanlines in the 100 IRE pattern start to fade away. When turned all the way they are no more visible... but this only affects the middle of the screen, the scanlines around it only get a little bit thinner.
Is this already a sign for a worn out tube? The PVM is in great cosmetic condition and when I opened up to clean it... there was no visible dust, so I`m kinda confused.
that room layout and color reminds me of my summer camp where it was the first time I saw.
1: a dot matrix printer (we literally spent hours printing things and looking at them laughing)
2: an NES that had a game that I've never seen anyone talk about or review. It was some weird wrestling game where the opponent would turn redder and redder the more you beat him, limbs would fly off and shit it was really weird.
I looked through google couldn't find that game its kind of like pit fighter but it was like in a boxing ring. Also I remember an 8-bit andre the giant lookalike being int the game. but by no means was he named andre or made out to be him.
it wasnt an official wwf game or anything like that...
>dot matrix printer
But I guess a BVM woudn`t do this?... and if a PVM would do this even when the lines aren`t that bright, it would mean it got heavy usage?
I have no idea what I should look at to tell if a PVM has a high hour count or not.
Clearly that's an HD PROJECTOR MULTI SCAN SYSTEM. Probably works great with a HIGH DEFINITION GRAPHICS 16-BIT SEGA GENESIS or an AV INTELLIGENT TERMINAL HIGH GRADE MULTIPURPOSE USE 16-BIT MEGA DRIVE SEGA.
You should be able to adjust color saturation on your display to get dull composite color levels if you want. By sticking to composite you're not just losing color data, you're losing image detail.
>Plus I never got rear-projection TVs... they always look so dim.
Projectors of any type are not ideal for use in bright ambient light conditions. If you stick one in a room that's kept dark like a cinema or arcade you can get incredible results.
Get your room as bright as you will normally have it most of the time, then calibrate each input to your taste or using a disc/test set. Every display is different, even different units of the same model, so it's not possible to give preferred settings that apply to everything.
I had strong feels when the last holdouts of CRT RP finally stopped shipping new units. I almost bought one just to commemorate the event, like I did with CRT direct views.
>But I guess a BVM woudn`t do this?
Depends on the BVM.
>if a PVM would do this even when the lines aren`t that bright, it would mean it got heavy usage?
Or the convergence isn't perfect. Usage hours don't mean as much as you think it does. Most PVMs and BVMs will have high hours.
Is there any high-end manufacturer that makes monitors targeted at gaming videophiles that has all the best quality input sources, even though many of them are being/have been phased out by mainstream manufacturers? I feel like there's money to be made there.... or if someone's had this idea already, there's MY money to be GIVEN there.
I'm talking up to modern 1080p HDMI standards, but still has all the old top-tier video inputs too.
Yeah. I know to get that shit to all work on the same unit is super complex and probably wicked expensive... but does it exist?
Absolute best 480p picture I've ever seen. Sucks for most /vr/ though. Resolution is too high so it fucks with low res geometry and it's getting old, not a bright as it used to be so depending on the interlaced signal it looks too dark.
Thinking of picking this up. Do you guys know if this model has a VGA output? Also I'm guessing there's no S-Video the vendor didn't seem to quick to respond
Fucking do it right next time.
Love the lines, though. And yeah, it's to do with a Y/C filter on composite video, as someone else said.
What game is that?
Also, yeah, to me thick lines are preferable. Closer to the arcade look.
I've got a 20L5 and I would love a BVM for the better convergence controls and easier calibration. But I'm pretty happy since my monitor was free.
If you think the comparison is bad, then you should check out some of Drakon's composite vs. RGB images. So I made comparisons to my own composite video.
The bottom is my composite capture. Note that Drakon's composite capture has horrible black level settings and throws everything off. Also, the buildings are colored differently.
This is hilarious to me.
I have more, but I won't flood anymore unless people want them.
I like these comparisons. Nothing much is going on in here. Applicable content is fine, go for it.
Also I cant WAIT for RetroRGB's AVS 8-bit console to come out. It is a shame that it is HDMI only.
What would it take to get the HDMI only to a PVM. HDMI to Component adapter? Would those with older PVMs then also need to downscale it from 720 to 480?
As I've stated earlier, Popful Mail (Sega CD version, with the Working Designs English Dub).
I've seen enough of gametechusa's videos to know all about Drakon's work. Look out for the trademark hot glue mark of authenticity. Don't get me wrong though, composite's bound to look shit either way.
No. Just no. The comparisons are sometimes severely misinformed and the information given is usually intended to sell something. Additionally, it has some false information - it claims RGB from the SNES mini is superior to the 1chip SNES, when they use the exact same motherboard. The only difference is that the mini doesn't have components connecting RGB to the multi-out port. (http://retrorgb.com/snesversioncompare.html)
>HDMI to RGB?
You could use HDFury or similar, but only if you have a L5 (PVM 14L5 or 20L5). You would not have the '240p' scanline effect, but you'd have a CRT. You can't expect it would offer below 480p, so for most PVM's you'd need to go to 480i or 240p somehow. 480i is what you'll find, and it looks horrible on CRT's. Also note that HDMI is going to give you the same colors you'd get off of an RGB mod, so you'd be paying so much money that you should just be getting a PVM and using composite (or if you need it, RGB.)
The reason that nothing can match the composite NES colors is that the NES does not make RGB values for colors anywhere. All its colors exist in a different colorspace (YIQ, closely related to YUV). You can only approximate the conversion between YIQ/YUV and RGB, so since HDMI also is a digital encoding of RGB, it will share the same flaws as any RGB mod.
And I've not heard of this 'AVS' - is it another product that destroys working famicoms for their CPU and PPU, puts them in a new case, and calls them 'new' and sells them at incredible profits? A la Analogue NT?
Trying to learn more about modifying old school consoles to get the best pictures possible. It's rough because a lot of people who know this shit try to keep it secret like they're in some kind of secret treehouse fort bullshit.
Might you gents point me toward some good sources to learn from?
Have fun with that though. Those are easily worth several thousand on eBay since they're currently in use by the same sorts of people that abandoned the BVM/PVM CRTs we're using. The broadcast, presentation, color accuracy, video mastery application users these were designed for. No idea what their longevity is either though since the "O" in OLED implies organic components.
I'm talking over my head since I'm not a tech guy:
Retro RGB's AVS 8-bit is an FPGA NES clone that is outputting 720p by way of HDMI out only. I believe it is using all original parts and not using working famicom parts, but dont quote me on that.
I have an Component to VGA adapter+Extron Super Emotia that I use for my Xbox 360, Wii U and Gamecube to downscale component 480p to 240p.
If I tossed that RetroUSB outputting 720p to an HD Fury to get it down to 480p component, I think it would work through the above written setup.
I cant remember the link, but I vaguely remember someone on a message board doing something similar with a Neo Geo X Gold and Ouya set up.
NES was one of the consoles I was thinking of tinkering with, til I found out that its component-out was indeed native, and not derived from some other encoding method. I'm not currently in the market to be dropping cash on all new boards to install in the system.
I have a Japanese PC Engine Duo-R that I was thinking of at least bumping up to S-Video. Tho from what I'm reading, it makes more sense to go RGB with it. Sadly, only my Asus LCD monitor supports those sync rates, and it has no built-in aspect ratio adjustment like a good monitor should.
Also, would love to cobble together some kind of RGB converter, so I might partake of the finer things without dropping the dough on an old or professional grade monitor. Got a couple old CRT VGA monitors in the basement that need to be put to use.
Still researching tho. That last idea may be a bad one, if converting said signals makes them way worse by nature.
VGA monitors work at higher horizontal sync rates than TV's and older monitors.
You might be out of luck with those, unless you want to invest in a scaler, which still fucks with the signal and won't look the same.
It's the phones man I really do feal dumb everytime it flips it but Ive posted others that didnt flip. In the preview its the right way in windows but posted it flips..
> yeah I researched it a lil bit basically if youre not in PAL(land) than 3.85 usually and if in PAL 4 is the standard.
It's called an EXIF tag and you're supposed to fix it before uploading. GIMP can tell you if an image is rotated in exif and offers to fix it, and programs like jpegtran can do it too.
yeah the color carrier freq. even though a TV that would usually have the ability to swap between the two was pretty nifty Not sure how many needed or had a switch, seems silly, I think many did it on its own.
Holy fucking piss. I'm a double idiot.
I JUST NOW caught that I said component rather than composite. I'm usually the one my friends roll their eyes at when I correct them on mixing up the 2, and have a near shit-fit when I hear composite and component pronounced as comp-uh-sit and comp-uh-nent.
yeah it seemed like a pretty good internet banter than it started getting odd.
Composite video encodes a color video signal over a single wire. The video signal consists of a monochrome signal with a slightly varying phase to indicate coloration. It was developed to maintain compatibility with black and white TV's when color was being introduced in consumer televisions.
RGB is another method. because Red/Green/Blue are the primary colors of light that all other visible colors can be made with. Some sets allow you to input red/green/blue signals directly to the tube, which contains three electron guns: a red gun, a green gun, and a blue gun. Those aim at corresponding phosphors on the face of the tube that light in red, green, and blue. These combine when viewed at a distance to form other colors. RGB usually consists of 3 wires for the 3 colors, plus one or two sync lines. Some combine horizontal and vertical sync (for TV's, horizontal is 15.734 kHz in NTSC, 15.625 in PAL, vertical is 60hz in NTSC, 50hz in PAL) into 'cSync' - this is what most game consoles do (such as the SNES). It is typically referred to as Hsync and Vsync when split, as in VGA, which uses RGB.
Component video has a few meanings but usually is equated to 'ypbpr' - where you have a luminance signal (black and white image) Y, a Pb signal (same as Cb in pic), and a Pr signal (same as Cr). All three are on different wires. Y also contains the 'sync' information that tells a CRT where to position the electron guns that paint an image on the face of a tube. Y is essentially composite video without any color. Pb and Pr together act to refer to points on the CbCr color space (see picture). Analog voltages are used to pinpoint a color to be displayed on the screen, on top of the monochrome Y image. As the guns draw Y, a circuit in the TV checks Pb and Pr to determine what color should be given to the monochrome signal, and the Y, Pb, and Pr are converted to the RGB color space so they can be displayed.
Don't feel bad if you have trouble understanding, I did too.
>480i is what you'll find, and it looks horrible on CRT's.
For games, there's no better display for 480i than a CRT that displays it natvely.
>The reason that nothing can match the composite NES colors is that the NES does not make RGB values for colors anywhere.
This is false, but only because I think you're conflating two separate concepts.
First, a composite signal will always crush color data in addition to luma detail. Standard NES output is composite (direct or RF), so that crushed color data is what most people, including the programmers, might consider the expected output. Not using an arbitrary colorspace natively, RGB or YUV or otherwise, doesn't matter. If you want to replicate the crushed color output of the NES composite while using any accurate RGB mod, you can probably do it display-side by undersaturating color and playing with brightness, contrast, and tint. Basically JFMSU.
Second, since the NES isn't standardized on RGB (specifically), different mods take different approaches in pullling RGB (specifically) from it. The best way would be a simple internal colorspace transcode from YIQ to RGB directly from the PPU with no palette remapping. This is mathematically and electrically trivial, nigh instantaneous, and exact (lossless). You would never see color distortion or "wrong" colors as a result of this method as long as you calibrate your display. If you take that RGB output and shove it through a composite encoder as bad as the one that's standard in the NES, you'll end up with the same washed out colors you'd expect directly from the NES.
>since HDMI also is a digital encoding of RGB
HDMI is colorspace-agnostic. You can run anything through it as long as your source device and display are compatible.
you are a moron. I was referring to downscaling 240p content (like NES games) that have been rendered in 720p in a way that a PVM will display it. He wanted to do that and I told him that 480i is what he'd be able to get equipment for - and he would want 240p.
Additionally, I did not say that composite was crisp and clean. I said that it created colors in a way that the RGB color space is mathematically unable to reproduce consistently. I am an engineer who has done video processing work for over four years.
You're right that HDMI is colorspace agnostic, but the HDMI NES mod outputs in the RGB color space.
Relax bromen. "Shit fit" was an attempt at comical exaggeration. Clearly it was a flop.
I know the basic differences. Honest. I just said component when I meant composite.
I did that thing where you say what you're thinking rather than what you mean. Psychologists call it a "Freudian Dick."
You don't get it.
The RGB arcade PPU's some nintendo arcade machines used defined RGB colorspace values for each color in the table. The composite PPU used in consumer NES units however did not. It would generate a phase shift that differed depending on the bytes in the PPU's cache area (where palette values are stored). These values are not RGB values, they are simply single bytes (0xFF, for example). The color creation is done in an analog path, and at no point is a color explicitly assigned to a value in microcode. For that reason, no RGB colorspace can 100% accurately define what a 'red' color is - only approximate. Nestopia's canonical palette does a pretty nice job, but there is still a difference between it and the image you'll get on a TV. To make matters worse, no two TV's interpret the phase shift exactly the same and so the colors will look slightly different depending on what TV you use.
That is why RGB is never going to be 100% color accurate. Though it will definitely look sharper and it definitely looks close on a lot of TV's, depending on how they would be decoding the equivalent composite video.
(some of the above taken from some stuff Kevin Horton/kevtris wrote up a while back. I hang out on nesdev a lot.)
The famicom titler PPU generates RGB colors, and has less compatibility problems than PC10 PPU. It's probably closer to regular PPU colors but I wonder if anyone bothered using it as a base...
Incidentally, for some old series (like Doctor Who and Dad's Army) of which we though we only had black and white recordings, we have been able to recover colour recordings precisely because the chroma signal shows up in the black and white signal as a kind of pattern (called chroma dots or chroma crawl).
After getting a hardware famicom I've sort of started thinking that there's something about the composite "look" that makes NES/FC look like NES/FC. To the point I now emulate NES games with NTSC filter set to composite if possible... (It's still off though, since that filter doesn't do the dot crawl right, since the NES/FC compensates for that so you only really see it while moving.)
Still wish I could get rid of jail bars on my av-mod Famicom though. (I've seen the output of a Twin Famicom and it's much better and cleaner.)
just picked up a PVM for $10. real nice condition. is there really no way to get RBG from NTSC Wii without modding component to VGA and running it through a sync to RBG? it sounds like overkill when the S-Video already looks pretty good. I want my Melee to look as sexy as possible.
I count myself lucky to have a standard def CRT TV with component-in. Wii... and by extension all the homebrew and emulators... look perfect on there. Snagged that beauty up around 2004 right before the advent of HDTVs.
Right now I have this Commodore 1702 monitor hooked up to my AV Famicom. Is there some way I can hook up my tower (not in the picture) to the composite inputs on the monitor? Would the latency make it unusable?
Hello from /g/, where this was also posted. Welcome to famicom club
There are VGA to s-video or composite adapters of sorts but they tend to be expensive. Still, it's a possibility.
yeah, sure, if you have a thorough understanding of japanese.
Or do what I did which also reduced jailbars massively and raise pin 21 of the PPU from the PCB and get composite out that way.
>Got PVM for free
>Was sitting in a nasty ass warehouse
>Covered in dead bugs
>Bring it home, open up
>Dead bugs inside too
Is there any way I can clean this out WITHOUT taking everything apart? It's got a bunch of what look like maggot shells. There's not a TON but they are scattered across the main board, probably a dozen or so.
My IBM terminal was like that.
Best way is sadly to take the frame off (exposing the internals) and blasting it with air from an air compressor.
I know that's not what you wanted to hear - it's horrible taking stuff apart and not knowing what you'll find.
What model PVM is it, out of curiosity?
Well that doesn't sound too bad, I already had the cover off, but I didn't want to actually start disassembling the thing.
It's a 20M2, it's in decent condition with the ick aside.
I think a can of compressed air may be too small (not sure though).
My best 'debugging' experience was with a massive ingersoll rand air compressor where I used to work repairing old audio equipment. Saw a lot of scary shit in there.
Introducing a vacuum into an electronics environment is a recipe for disaster. Unless it's specifically equipped for antistatic applications, a vacuum can generate static voltages capable of damaging sensitive CMOS ICs and components on the monitor's chassis + any other input cards/options that might happen to be in its proximity.
I'd recomment what >>2761578 mentioned and use a dedicated air compressor if the pressure out of a typical office-use can is too low for that particular chassis.
Somehow forgot this Drakon RGB vs Drakon's bullshit composite capture vs. a real composite capture comparison.
If you haven't already made the decision about converting the signal and what not, and the cost and time are a concern, then definitely try the component route first and see if you're satisfied.
I randomly bought one of these ps1/2 RGB cables... thoughts? it was so cheap I figured what the hell
The best way to do it is with a video card capable of outputting 15kHz signals (that's 240p, effectively).
crt_emudriver is easiest, followed by Soft15kHz, CRU and Powerstrip, and after that, Linux. (Those last three might be able to force video modes on cards that won't work with the first two, i'm not sure)
For crt_emudriver, read this carefully - http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=65
The active adapters mentioned by other anon will work, but won't look anywhere near as nice - IMHO to the point they're not worth bothering with. They will only output 480i, and scaling 240p to 480i looks bad even on the Wii, which is legendary for how well it handles video signals. This means anything below 6th gen emu (PS2/Xbox/GC/DC) will look bad even if everything else goes right.
PAL N64 needs a special S-Video cable, if you're on PAL.
Anyway, a vacuum is far weaker than an air-compressor... stick to the air compressor.
Is it even using RGB? Looks pretty thin. The description is right, but if it's only wired for composite you can complain and get your money back. Shielding will help, but if it's not shielded just keep it away from power cables where you can.
Forgive my stupidity but since its a PC CRT how is it able to handle resolutions below 480p? I thought 480p was the lowest PC CRT monitors (like yours) could do, and don't they not support interlaced resolutions or am I missing something here?
I doubt anyone is interested, but I've been posting about using S-Video on system and trying out Famiclones on my PVM.
While out at a flea market looking for a new S-Video cable, I picked up a Retron 3 in really bad shape out of a garbage pile and paid 3 bucks for it.
I had just bought a Super Retro Trio a few days earlier and said meh, why not.
Long story short, Retron 3's S-video on both SNES and Genesis as darn near perfect. 0 jail bars whatsoever.
Super Retro Trio's is dog shit for Genesis. Tons of jail bars.
Future updates to come.
Well, I did say easiest. For those of us not using Linux, that's not Linux.
Any good guides to modelines in Linux, btw?
Shit, you did say composite. Well, mostly that's just going to look like ass whatever you do, sadly. Will the 1702 take RGB somehow? That works well, as described in the post above.
New (to me) working 1988 RCA floor model CRT. Can't wait to get my NES hooked up to it.
>guides to modelines on linux?
I figured it out in a couple hours just experimenting with custom values on a multisync monitor.
here's a cool spreadsheet I found, though www.fl-eng.com/_lib/doc/vesa.xls
Also, there's a command line program called 'cvt' that will generate basic signals. You can expand on those with a bit of experimentation and modification.
>Retron 3 s-video is great i mentioned last thread no jailbars no faint white line in the center of snes it finds alot of use as my test system for 240p test and shit since the snes powerpak works on it
I guess all the "Retron" hate got to me on this board. I have one Retron 3 at my vacation house but wasn't expecting to desire another.
When I started shopping around the Retron hate and wanting to try NES in S-video swayed me to the Super Retro Trio. But MAN its Genesis in S-Video is almost unplayable.
Glad I found my trash picked Retron 3 for cheap. Don't feel so bad, about paying for the SRT since its pack in "SNES styled" Genesis Controllers are pretty great and I got another set of S-video cables.
Thinking about getting pic related but the guy wants $100. Kinda pricy. Would this be a decent purchase? How would I set up audio with something like this? Any advice would be highly appreciated. /1
So I've been arguing with myself over which one of the two CRTs I have I should keep. One small and crisp as hell and the other big and good for multiplayer. Then I had an enlightenment. I can just keep both!
Is this a slippery slope?
I'm just hoping the guy with the 14L2's will respond.
>see over priced shit I want
>haggle attempts get shot down, give up.
>see ok priced shit I want, don't even care about haggling
every damn time.
He just messaged me. Said he has two, but I'm going to pick one up from him. And he's in Mansfield apparently. I don't know what kind of hours they have, but they came out of a church, so its probably fairly low unless they got them used.
>tfw finally going to have a PVM
>why not be a bro and try to hook up/set up with >>2765240
Its a craigslist ad. I know he's seen it since he said:
>I wonder if the guy with the 14l2 actually has 5 of them
If he's interested in one of them, then he can email the guy. What do you want me to do? Should I say "hey I know this guy on a website called 4chan that might want one"? unless >>2765240 sends an email on his own, then there's nothing for me to do other than point out they exist, which I already did.
I thought >>2765074 said he has emailed the guy and gotten no response.
It can be a pain when craigslist sellers either dont see or dont respond to your email where you ask to buy their stuff.
You should put up a throwaway email where >>2765240 can email you and coordinate to go together and each pick one of the 14L2s up.
Maybe he'll pay you like a $20 fee for helping him get the CRT he wants.
A few CRT threads ago another guy tried to help me grab a PVM and I did the same thing I just described above. Only reason it didnt work out was because he was too busy to pick it up and I didnt want to travel for an 8 inch screen.
I still thanked him for his attempted help. He was a cool guy. Thanks anonbro
>I thought >>2765074 said he has emailed the guy and gotten no response.
>It can be a pain...
>can email you and coordinate to go together
>Maybe he'll pay you like a $20 fee for helping him get the CRT he wants
I get what you're saying, but that would probably just make things a pain in the ass for the both of us.
I'm going to try making it out there tomorrow.
Cool. I got a hold of him and I'm meeting him up as well. Son we just joined the PVM master race
This SONY PVM-20M2MDU ends up being 350$ (Canadian) in total on Ebay? Is it worth it or is that a really bad deal
Prices are creeping upwards as more people learn about PVMs, but that's still a little high. I'd say that set, in good condition, is worth about $CA200-220 right now. That doesn't mean the seller is just going to hand it over for that money, however.
I figured as much, still a very tempting over considering I don't have a car and I have some disposable outcome.
Times are tough. I should keep searching for a place locally I think.
It's gonna be painful, but they've reached such a popularity that the price hardly is worth it. I got my 20L2MDU for $80 a place 2 hours from me.
Just keep hitting up that canadian craigslist or what be it.
Do you guys recommend me to get the framemeister and play retro games on my HDTV?
It depends what you want.
If you want the best image quality then a LCD with a scaler like that beats any CRT.
However, a cheap ass TV will really add to the already high diminishing returns you're getting by going to a RGB set up with a XRGB. The XRGBs are very high quality pieces of kit though. Well worth their price.
If you want the quirks of a CRT then the XRGBs wont give you that.
No idea. Closest I've ever seen was a (fairly good) article I saw on Tested. It talks about BVMs, PVMs, Consumer CRTs, Scalers, video formats, and pluses and minuses of each option. Other than that, there's all the articles about getting RGB from consoles that may briefly mention those monitors.
My best guess is a few people on ebay got wind of the monitor's value and decided to jack it up, hoping for a high sell. After that, I the people who don't know what it's worth probably would then check the prices of existing listings and base it off of those listings.
Then again, I've never shopped for a PVM and I AM the sucker who payed $415 USD + shipping for my BVM D20F1U, so take from that what you will.
I really need to take some more photos, too. Keio Flying Squadron, anyone?
I've been into PVM and RGB systems for the past few years. Things that have seem to contribute are that Tested.com article, Youtube user Phonedork, The Back In My Play podcast, and CRT/Scanline fetish threads on various message boards.
Additionally getting into RGB scart and/or Framemeisters will naturally start to push you into the PVM neighborhood. The My Life In Gaming, GameSack, and AdamKoralik Youtubes have both done episodes spotlighting RGB scart pushing it into the forefront. As soon as you go down the RGB rabbithole PVMs are not far behind.
Not to mention that HDRetroVision component cables have been funded successfully via kickstarter so that is bringing even more people into the RGB fold...again which will push people into PVMs.
Does video quality drop if you use long cables? I ask since I'm contemplating having a smaller TV set up on my computer desk, which would be fed from a 2-output switchbox in my entertainment center on the other side of the room.
Across a typical room in a residence, likely not. The distances that a video signal would require something like a repeater is something more used in large open areas like a theater lobby with presentation monitors or something of that sort. Extron makes repeaters for RGB/HDMI that handle that sort of thing but I believe you have to run a cable quite a few meters loss before you start to run into attenuation issues.
Now I personally would suggest short to mid-size cables since that's less trouble with cable management.
At any rate, your switchbox would be more likely to attenuate your video signal in any case (depending on how it was designed/manufactured).
you know, i almost posted the other day. i'm about to redo my setup to include the d20f1u that's still in the box it was shipped in... could use a hand.
but i don't want to get MDK'd
i know there's rochester, ny bros here too.
The PVM is a 1344Q that I got on ebay for 20 bucks locally.
The consoles are:
Mutilated Super Famicom with AV breakouts in the back (Luma sync)
Regular PS2 (Luma sync)
RGB Modded Core Grafx (Composite Video Sync)
Region Modded M1 Sega Genesis with a s-video modded 32X (Composite Video Sync)
Now if I could find a good spot to roll it into when I'm not playing, it would be perfect.
story of my life. I primarily use a 14" for personal use and then have to bust out a 20" pvm one a month or so for fighting games with friends. Only spare room i have for it is my bedside.
Found this at my local Salvation Army for $40, its resolution is 1800x1440, worth the money?
So I heard even shitty OC is accepted?
Game is Download on PC Engine.
Camera is a shitty compact thing that probably is about 13 years old or so. At least it takes better photos than the phone... If only I could convince it to up the shutter speed without having to turn flash on.
Rockman 5, on AV-modded famicom.
Previous picture is RGB-modded PCE, btw.
I've another PVM too, but none of the snaps on that turned out very good.
Arrangement not final (please excuse the mess). I need to rotate most of this stuff to the left side of the room but I have to get rid of a large number of parts and devices to make space for it first.
On a side note, the BNC>BNC jumpers arrived.
I was able to lift mine out of the box (after undoing most of the bubble wrap) without too much hassle. The main thing is to expose the handles on the side since they provide excellent leverage to actually lift it. Of course, get someone to help if you aren't confident in your strength alone.
And I present to you, more scanlines on a 20-year old loli.
I got a problem with my Dreamcast, VGA only works on a monitor and not on an HDTV.
Continuing with a shot from my PVM-14L2, you'll notice thinner scanlines because this one only boasts 600 TVL.
This one is in generally worse shape than my PVM-L4, it has some pretty noticeable geometry problems (I've managed to get rid of the worst by calibrating), and it grows/shrinks noticeable by brightness of the picture to the point were lines will look rather wavy if there is a lot of contrast in the picture.
Still I like the 600 TVL look more for some games.
He said he got the monitor anyways. I think it was more the "inconvenience" of forcing the seller to find an outlet in a starbucks to make sure the monitor works.
Im guessing that he offered to buy the seller a coffee or something for actually taking the time to plug it in and allow him to test it.
So I forgot to mention it a while back but I had two pieces of what I think is a rack mount kit for the D20F1U. Since I haven't figured out how this is supposed to mount onto the monitor (probably need to check the service manual).
I'm curious if anyone here would be interested in these, because honestly I doubt I'm ever going to be getting a compatible rack for what these were designed for anyways.
Photo here: https://a.pomf.cat/khftkm.JPG
TVL means TV Lines, which is a term for CRT horizontal resolution (vertical? the one of left to right or the other way around anyhow). A 600 TVL screen will resolve 600 vertical bars. An 800 TVL screen will resolve 800 vertical bars.
Generally higher res screens will have thicker scanlines, and vice versa.
some days i just get lucky and get a great shot of my EU trini, today was not one of these days
[electricity bill intensifies]
My setup started as a single monitor on that shelf next to my desk. It has since grown. Vectrex isn't usually on the desk but I thought I'd throw it there for the picture. The 15kHz whine when I took this was intense. Nearly impossible to get a picture of all the monitors at once.
I wanted to do this but I have no room for it. Better I just have my stuff on a shelf by my desk.
I love seeing multiple monitor setups.
I'd kill to have a woodgrain console TV with proper composite ports, or better yet svideo. Sucks that 99% of them are all RF only.
Ex studio VHS players are like ex studio CRT monitors. They are better than the consumer stuff.
I forgot what the name of the sony ones are but I believe they are generally of high quality. I don't know terribly much about them though.
> the guy brings a pvm into a starbucks, plugs it in and when you lowball him he walks away without selling it to you?
>Im guessing that he offered to buy the seller a coffee or something for actually taking the time to plug it in and allow him to test it.
No, I got it. my phone autocorrected so my last post looks kinda odd. The listing was $75 each for some 14L2's with a rack mounts attached, which I was totally fine with paying. The guy said to meet up at a starbucks he lives near so he could hook it up and show me that it worked. When I tested it out, the menu on the screen "jiggled" and there was that color line at the top, which I didn't know if that was normal or not, so I asked if he could run home and test the other one to see if it also did that. He instead returned with the last two PVM's he had left, and showed me both of them. But during the time he was gone, I had asked here if that was normal, and since you all said it was, I offered to buy the guy a coffee because I felt like a dick for making him do that for nothing.
Anyways, have a battlestation pic, since all the shots of the screens themselves are blurry jpegs.
ended up taking out the dslr, still cant get a nice shot
anyways its a ps2 via rgb scart playing sor2 off a 240p patched version of sonic gems collection
Meant to bring it up earlier but the menu will have that "jiggle" by default until you sync a source to it. At least that's how my 145FU works IIRC.
Yeah, I've figured out what the issue was by now. I was kinda worried when I got home, and hooked it up with s-video only to see that the "jiggle" was still there somewhat. But by the time I'd put a second s-vid cable from the output into my Toshiba for >>2767634 , it had gone away. Now I can't get it to come back. So I'm guessing it just needed to warm up a bit or maybe it needed something shoved in the output, or maybe I needed to give it a better sync, idk. Regardless, everything is working just fine. I'll have to get some adapters to hook up my Wii though.
iPad CRT photofag here.
ProTip: Just give up on trying to upload right from your device. It will continue to rotate and fuck up, I promise.
Email the photo to yourself (be sure to compress to the smallest size possible due to 4chan image size limits), open and save it through your computer and upload through your PC.
Yeah right? Sadly this one is RF only. But tbh it still looks REALLY good. Static is minimal (probably helps that I added ferrite beads to my cables, as old RF cables are often lacking them), color looks perfect, and the picture is sharp, all things considered.
It's pretty sad but I'd take RF w/ added ferrite beads on an old ColorTrak over composite on a nice new flatscreen any day. It just doesn't compare.
My pic isn't the greatest example though, since my camera sucks and it was dark when I took the pic, but it still looks good imo.
Negative. You are looking at native RGB output from the Model 2 Genesis/Sega CD combo on the D20F1U.
Fujifilm Finepix S8200. Manual shutter speed of 30 (1/30), Automatic Aperture (ISO 400, 800 if it comes out too dark). Desperately needs a tripod though.
If the monitor in question already has an internal 75Ohm termination (I know the XM29 has this, for example) then no, it's probably not necessary to use them (barring component failure). If it's connected to another monitor and if that other monitor is the last in the chain, then it is simply a video passthrough on the first monitor and is terminated on the last monitor. The 75Ohm termination is always for the last monitor in the chain (for a single source).
Spot the difference
>Fujifilm Finepix S8200
I love those Fuji SuperZoom Cameras
I have S1800 from back in the day. Too bad I have no idea how to photography. I just used it to be able to take pictures of player when I got nosebleeds at sporting events and not have them look like ants.
best i could get , im having a hard time focusing
Somewhat related but does anyone know of a good a/v receiver pre HDMI to use in a setup like this?? Looking for something with atleast 3 or more component inputs. I can just buy an audio only receiver and a video switch but i was hoping to making it a little less cluttered and simpler to switch around.
Just because I like you and am looking for some good karma to come my way.
I've got 2 of these: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WS5I7U?tag=new-best-seller-20
One for my arcade set up (OG Xbox, BC PS3 and Saturn RGB to Component)
And one for my PVM set up (done in a convoluted way: but WiiU, Gamecube and BC 360)
Automatic switching works great. 3 Component inputs, one component output on the back, and one component input in the front. S-video on all of them to boot.
I dont know of anything specific, but Pioneer, JVC, and Sony are good brands to look for. Any company that produced its own video or audio format is likely to have made a lot of high quality receivers.
Thank you for that i might get this if I cant find what i need but i was hoping for an A/V receiver amplifier, with either stereo or surround speaker outputs not just a switch
Also i could if worse comes to worse get a modern 2 zone amplifier and run evrything for my modern and retro setups to it. And just have the different zones playback different inputs but that would be a clutter. And I may have too many consoles for one receiver
I dont know much about the actual stereo bits of stereo setups, just the various film or music players that you hook up to them.
By receiver, I mean the huge box things with lots of buttons and readouts on the front, and a shit ton of inputs and outputs on the back. Like a Pioneer VSX-D1S for example (I dont know how that one ranks for quality btw). I do however know what companies are generally regarded as a good buy because I've done a lot of research into laserdisc players, and I know a Pioneer set, along with a JVC VCR, and Sony Betamax deck were always considered to be the best options.
>I know those are decent brands but anything im looking for would be discontinued and probably have to buy used because all receivers today are hdmi receivers with other output options but i dont need all the hdmi outputs.
Yeah, I know, my recommendation was specifically for brands you should look for if you want to buy anything made in the late 80's to early or mid 90's. I've been trying to put together a high-end setup for old media formats for a few years now, and every forum and usenet group I've looked at said pretty much the same things. Pioneer CLD laserdisk players, JVC S series (the S8000 gets mentioned alot) VCR's, and pretty much any Sony branded betamax deck with a lot of buttons on it. And any of those companies made fairly high quality units of their competitors format (ex. sony VCR's are very good).
Naturally, all of those companies sold some kind of receiver to hook their other products up to. All you need to do, is look up the companies model naming scheme, and use that to figure out which piece of equipment would be best for you.
I think there's a connection problem between my CRT and my PC/Dreamcast. Both of them display colours incorrectly on the CRT, but have no problem displaying colours correctly on another screen with the same cables. And the multicolored "no signal" message displays fine on the crt
What should I do?
This was my tv growing up. It wasn't very good. I had a smaller Mitsubishi monitor that was a million times better and didn't weight a million pounds.
I thought we only liked CRTs for their superior display of retro games. Are we now pretending that their unwieldy size and weight are somehow desirable.
That's not exactly true though. Being massive isn't overly desirable (though having a big screen isn't a BAD thing), and the wood paneling and stuff alone isn't an "instant-sale" quality or anything. What makes it good is because of what you stated: "We like CRTs for their superior display of retro games" and this TV does that. It might be massive and feels like it weighs a thousand pounds, but it fulfilled the 3 basic things I wanted from a CRT:
1) It was cheap (it was free actually) as I took it off of my mother instead of seeing her throw it out (it was my childhood TV as well).
2) The visuals/graphics look good.
I'm sorry, but considering I own it, and you're basing your opinion off of memory, I simply choose to disagree. For all you know, your model could have been damaged or the cables could have been managed improperly. Who knows.
I just can't agree with your memory of it over my actual experience with it... Is the '88 ColorTrak the best CRT? I highly doubt it. But it still looks 10X better than any modern display, and that's my primary concern, the same as you. That's all that should matter, not how it looks.
This last one was more of a bonus than a prerequisite, but:
3) It looked good installed in my game room. And it does. It's been taken care of, and looks great and really pulls the aesthetic of the room together. It feels like I'm a kid laying in the floor playing NES again when I play on it. I like that. You can make fun of me for admitting nostalgia did influence my decision, but the fact is, it did, and I don't really care.
It's simply a great looking, large old CRT.
So no, my main focus wasn't aesthetic. It's aesthetic and the nostalgia I had of the set in particular DID play a part into my decision to take it, but I'm not disappointed. It's not the greatest CRT, but it's still really nice and it's found a home with me again after all these years.
Well it doesn't work, just to clarify I use this, not a VGA box.
You'd be better off with a smaller set with higher quality inputs. As I recall, that doesn't even take composite cables. If size is all you want, there are newer sets with bigger screens and less bulk.
Seems like only NES was designed with composite in mind.
Just about everything else from the era derives a composite or RF signal from video encoders that CAN and DO output either s-video or RGB. This is why it's so easy to add said inputs back on. To put it simply, it comes down to leeching off the right chips and you've got a better signal. Honestly, there's a little more to it than that. But to put it more simply...
Fuck composite. It is to videophiles what dinosaur bones are to hardcore Christians. Lies and deception that are blinding us from the greater good.
They only downgraded to it because it's the closest thing to a balance between decent(ish) quality and a majority of people having it.
This is why so many people have a hard on for CRTs and video signals, etc. The manufacturers assumed we wouldn't be able to display it and stiffed us. Now that we're bitter shitty adults with soldering irons, disposable income, and a whole internet full of knowledge we're trying to get the childhood they thought we couldn't handle.
Except NES. That really was designed for composite. That's why upgrading NES video involves installing brand new boards and chips, essentially ADDING formats that weren't there to begin with.
That first guy was saying that your CRT has no desirable features other than a sarcastic "unwieldy size and weight". If you were going for superior picture, you would have gotten any newer CRT. So it can be assumed that you got it for the aesthetic, not the picture quality.
Not comparing it to LCDs, just other CRTs.
The number of games that benefit from the blurriness of composite video is much smaller than the number of games that gain from sharpness.
SMB3 has big black outlines around all its sprites so the very low chroma res in NTSC is not much of a problem. Ninja Gaiden has sprites with colored outlines and lots of intricate pixel art that looks like dogshit over composite.
I just got an official PS1/2/3 s-video cable and man I love it. Sony always outdoes themselves when it's analog shit.
No idea actually, I just got it on craigslist for free. I paid 20 for the Trinitron, 3 bucks for the VHS player and only 50 for the Technics receiver, CD player, speakers and tape deck. Not including the video games, I kinda lucked out. I even found bunch of really high end audio cables at goodwill for a dollar, like really thick stuff.
Here's an old picture of the stuff behind the doors.
man, i really would take this in black/brown
doubt one will show up on craigslist though.
The few times ikea stuff i liked showed up on craigslist i emailed sellers asap and then i wouldnt hear back from them for 4 days and get a "sorry i sold it" or gave it away
If it's not apparent, I'm not a CRT aficionado or anything. I was just happy to take the free large-but-dated CRT over a smaller newer/more updated model that I have to shell out for.
I look at it like this:
It's "desirable feature" aside from aesthetic is superior picture in comparison to LED/LCD TVs. It doesn't have to be the best CRT, just better than modern displays (which it is). Aesthetic was just a bonus.
So: Free + Better than LCD + Aesthetically pleasing > Expensive + Best CRT picture + Not aesthetically pleasing. But that's simply my opinion because I'm not a aficionado and I just want my setup to work and look better and be legitimate, rather than to necessarily be the best looking.
I only really posted pics of it here because I thought people might be interested in it, but that's not the case, and I understand why. But I don't understand why it's so hard to comprehend that someone might own the set for reasons other than aesthetics alone...
TLDR; I have other reasons for owning it besides aesthetics (though it does look cool and nostalgic). It was free, and while it might not be the best CRT, it still displays great (better than modern TVs). =)
Very retro, I like.
Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure that's more or less the set my family used to have. We got it in japan and brought it with us back to the states, but it had a lil bit of damage in shipping and after a few years it finally went out.
So I just recently found this in my sister's shed, she said I could take it on the condition that I don't bring it back. Specific model number is Sanyo cp14se1(v).
I've been emulating games through a wii and I quite like how it displays. It only takes composite, but has space to mod in s-cart, though I don't trust myself to do the operation. The colours and definition on this tv are fantastic, and I suspect that it was made towards the tail end of the CRT lifespan. I've got a ps2 coming in the mail that should look great on this, much better than when the ps2 was new and I had a shitty dying crt that fucked the colours up.
All in all I'm pretty happy, still trying to track down a monitor, but this has hit the spot while I search. What do you guys think?
inb4 >clean your fucking room
Aw man, I think we have the same Trinitron
I've been spoiled by a 20" that's decent but doesn't have any way of adjusting the image beyond brightness, contrast, and color saturation. How do I bring myself to play on a smaller screen again without sticking my face to the glass?
It's not that I can't see a smaller screen as all my previous TVs have been 14". It's more that It's been a while since I've used one and it feels like it would be a downgrade from a more 'cinematic' experience playing on a smaller screen even if the overall image quality is better.
Neither are better. Pros and cons like everything else in the world.
All CRTs have fucked up geometry to some extent. Some are very very good, but ALL LCDs have perfect geometry pretty much.
Depends on the quality of the model, but this is a strength for CRTs as high quality CRTs are pretty cheap. High quality LCDs are expensive, for the most part.
This depends on how you measure, but I think I prefer the contrast of a CRT to most LCD monitors. I've never seen a VA panel in person.
There are fast LCDs now, but most CRTs will have very fast response times. Most (but not all!) LCDs will have some amount of lag, but this may or may not be an issue.
CRTs are capable of higher resolutions and sharp picture, but they went out of use before many like this were made. So, in terms of absolute max resolution, LCDs win. But, /vr/ uses dictate low and/or varying resolutions. Due to the nature of CRTs, they can display different resolutions without having to interpolate, so for our uses CRTs win. This is probably the single most important aspect of CRT use for /vr/ purposes.
LCDs win by a mile in size and power usage. This is the primary reason why they became so popular, since not only were they easier to make space for, and easier to ship, but since there was less material they were cheaper to produce too.
>Depends on the quality of the model, but this is a strength for CRTs as high quality CRTs are pretty cheap. High quality LCDs are expensive, for the most part.
When the CRTs were new yes. Not 10+ years later.
>This depends on how you measure, but I think I prefer the contrast of a CRT to most LCD monitors. I've never seen a VA panel in person.
This greatly depends on how you measure. Ansi measure and CRTs area multitude worse than LCDs.
>CRTs are capable of higher resolutions and sharp picture, but they went out of use before many like this were made. So, in terms of absolute max resolution, LCDs win. But, /vr/ uses dictate low and/or varying resolutions. Due to the nature of CRTs, they can display different resolutions without having to interpolate, so for our uses CRTs win. This is probably the single most important aspect of CRT use for /vr/ purposes.
XRGBs hace fixed this. PC CRT monitors for the most part aren’t going to display 240p well if at all with out extra equipment.
I’m not saying CRTs are trash. Can’t beat them for the authenticity of it being a CRT regardless if it’s a flat screen or bowl. But they certainly aren’t better than good modern LCDs.
You’d have to be pretty ignorant to think so.
I wanted to talk about geometry more but you can write pages on why that’s completely fucked with CRTs. Among other quirks like bloom.
>There are fast LCDs now
Which will never ever be able to support light guns/pens, no matter how much money you throw at the engineers.
Even on a small 320x240 LCD which gets a digitized, unbuffered and unscaled 15khz signal will not work with that.
>LCDs win by a mile in size and power usage.
Not every LCD consumes less power than every CRT.
Usually huge LCD TVs tend to consume more power than slightly smaller 15khz CRTs. I remember seeing a power rating of 150W on the back of an 32" 16:9 LCD made in 2010 while my 4:3 24" Trinitron from 1991 is rated 96W.
A C64 will always consume less power than a "high end gaming desktop PC" but can't do as much, let's say that the modern PC can execute up to 250000 MIPS (million instructions per second) while the 6510 CPU in the C64 executes about 0,25MIPS which implies that it is a million times faster but that doesn't translate proportional to the used power as the power is more like 10-20W for the C64 and maybe at least 50W up to 700W for that high end PC.
What is rather true here is that the modern technology is way more power efficient, it simply does a lot more with less power compared to it's past counterpart.
>This is the primary reason why they became so popular
I personally say it's because people are stupid and simply believe everything the media/salesman tells them, like HDTV is a huge step up which is simply not true for me. Color television was a huge step up, the difference between monochrome and color is night and day while the difference between SDTV and HDTV (for me at least) is like driving in the morning without lights on and with lights on, I simply see a little more details but the overall picture is the exact same.
Now something you omitted is that CRTs tend to be way more service friendly than LCDs, they are often easier to dismantle and to repair and are similar constructed among manufacturers.
>When the CRTs were new yes. Not 10+ years later.
I don't have testing equipment but I'd bet that professional sets in good condition still trounce most modern LCDs, even if they have 20k hours on the tube. I'd rate the colors on my midrange PVMs above those on my dell ultrasharps.
>XRGBs hace fixed this. PC CRT monitors for the most part aren’t going to display 240p well if at all with out extra equipment.
But that's just more shit to buy, and even then you'd still need a good LCD. It's a whole different price range. This isn't counting overpriced ebay BVMs, but mid range PVMs that you can still pick up for <$100.
I think if you take a modern high end LCD with a good converter box and compare it to a mid or high end professional set, the CRT is going to be a better set for 240p content. The LCD will be sharper, and if all you want is absolute pixel accuracy then it's always going to be the way to go. But, I'd say that the picture would be more attractive on the CRT, in terms of the color and the slight lack of sharpness.
>LE PVM MEME XD
Goddamnit FUCK OFF FAGGOT!!! YOU'RE JUST A POORFAG THAT CAN'T AFFORD A SUPERIOR DISPLAY. ENJOY YOUR 480i COMPOSITE WEGA TRASH.
>That’s pretty much 100% wrong.
I just searched the archives because I remember posting about that a long time ago:
>It could feel nice when someone brings you a TV to repair, but unfortunately it's a godforsaken LCD TV UE46C6820US.
>It's rated at 150W, my CRTs KV-C2521D (pic related) is rated at 96W and KV-M1400D at 48W.
You're are the one who's wrong and don't even get the idea to redefine the meaning of "power rating" back then and today.
>LCDs win by a mile in sharpness and contrast.
Being sharper by displaying the fine pixels directly is an argument but that's the only good thing on LCDs, being able to display perfect pixels.
>Usually brightness too.
You're right. The minimum brightness or black level is way higher than most CRTs making darker areas easier to see.
>Add that to their large size and and CRTs were doomed to fail regardless.
Exactly, the large size makes it harder for burglars to steal it thus victims don't often need to buy a replacement which is of course bad that they don't have to buy a new one.
I remember how that one bar had a 32-42" LCD TV that has been stolen 3 times which also broke because of that, they simply put a huge and heavy 32" Panasonic TAU in it's place.
I honestly see the advantage in the small size and weight, you don't even need any muscles to lift these or quality furniture to support it.
That's the thing, dumbass. They can only mostly do 480i lmfao. My PVM can do 240p, 480i and 480p. it can even go as high as 720p and 1080i. I'm feeding all my retro as 240p and GC/PS2/Xbox as 480p into this PVM because it's a fucking beast. Your garbage ass 480i only trash can't accommodate different consoles of different gens at their prime.
>>... CRTs can display different resolutions without interpolating...
>XRGB has fixed this
by interpolating, so technically no.... what is scaling but not interpolation?
not bashing the XRGB here, it's a pretty great piece of kit, I just wish it wouldn't suck balls for games that switch between 240p and 480i... What is it that makes the HDMI handhake take forever like that with the XRGB-mini?
If only the firmware was open source it feels like the community would've fixed these problems a long time ago...
It's you who don't know what interpolation is about... interpolation is using a lesser set of data to generate a bigger set of data with the gaps between data points "filled in".
XRGBs use nearest neighbor interpolation (also known as nearest neighbor scaling) to fill in the "pixels between the pixels" you get when you blow up 320x240 (as an example) to 720p. if you didn't do any interpolation you'd just have tiny pixels with black inbetween them...
Unless you mean specifically the linedoubling mode of the XRGB-3 and such, but that is pretty pointless with an LCD of resolution other than 640x480 as the LCD would have to interpolate/scale on its own.
Your previous reply makes it sound like it's magically possible for high-res LCDs to suddenly display low-res material without any interpolation with an XRGB when an XRGB is by definition doing interpolation.
I might be technically wrong on the sort of scaling they use, but it matters not if specifically they use nearest neighbor... having performed video scaling means that you have performed interpolation in the mathematical sense by definition
what I'm saying though is that any sort of scaling, peformed by your mothers scaley engines, will be interpolation.
The definition of interpolation is (wiki):
>In the mathematical field of numerical analysis, interpolation is a method of constructing new data points within the range of a discrete set of known data points.
You only have 320 times 240 data points for 320x240 and you need 960 times 720 data points to make it 960x720.
No matter how many times you want me to repeat the correct technical terms for whatever scaling the boxes use you are not getting around the fact that performing scaling is an act of interpolation...
I'm moving. No truck, only a car that can't tow.
I can either take this 32'' heavy as fuck Trintron WEGA with composite and component video, or I can bring four more Uhaul boxes.
I'm honestly torn.
Who needs it? The only thing I'm aware of outside of specialized equipment (Sencore video test pattern generation equipment and the like) that uses separate vertical and horizontal sync is VGA output from Laptops/PCs/DC and RGB output from JAMMA arcade PCBs. All it takes to fix that for CSync is a sync combiner circuit (or a BNC T-adapter for the "dirty" fix) barring any issues with HFrequency (Multiformat branded PVMs/BVMs do not have this problem though).
I was thinking of buying a Sony PVM 20M2E to play SNES games on, is it worth the buy?
You're missing the most important feature:
This is critically important for eliminating sample-and-hold blur. And if you want to use original hardware then a CRT is the *only* way to get it without adding latency (with emulators you can have 120Hz + black frame insertion).
which I mentioned as a sort-of exception in >>2771857
but actually, thinking about it, line doubling can also be considered nearest neighbor interpolation for lines:
>we need to create 480 output lines out of 240 input lines
>you have 240 lines
>we have 240 "black" lines
>make black lines the same as their nearest neighbor (rounding down, that is upwards on the screen)
>we have line doubling
so line doubling can be considered a form of interpolation.
I take it you were meaning to say
in the context of 240p: a field = a frame (that's why we can get 60 fps gaming with 240p)
in the context of 480i though: 2 fields (odd and even) = 1 frame
>A CRT refreshes the screen every frame.
Both CRTs and the majority of LCDs update line by line. Check out any high speed camera footage. The strobed LCD updates line by line and then flashes the backlight once all the lines are updated. This unavoidably increases latency.
>This is why 240p looks so much better than 480i in terms of flicker.
No, 240p looks better because there is no odd/even line offset flicker. The 60Hz flicker is identical.
I can't even imagine what kind of fucked up thought process is going on here. If it updates smoothly from top to bottom, which it clearly does, then there is no other possibility but updating line by line (pixel by pixel is a special case of line by line). Maybe your LCD has weird Cthulu-powered geometry.
Unless you are talking about vector displays, which you are not, the CRT absolutely displays pixels. There is no requirement for a pixel to be consistent size or shape, it is simply the smallest "picture element". That is where the name comes from. The fact that CRTs are analog devices does not change this.
Learn what "pixel" means. The graphics card connected to the CRT outputs pixels one at a time in sequence. The CRT displays them one at a time in sequence as they are received. There is no buffering. How these pixels are displayed depends on the position on screen, because CRTs are analog. This does not change the fact that they are pixel.
The LCD does something similar, except it may buffer the entire line before displaying it all at once. This is still updating "line by line". The pixels in this case are of consistent size and shape, but they are still pixels.
"Line by line" being analogous to "step by step". And yes, some LCDs will buffer the whole frame, which is why I didn't say "all LCDs". But note that this adds cost, so there is strong incentive not to do it.
The line is made of pixels. The beam scans left to right drawing one pixel at a time. It then does the horizontal refresh and moves back to the left side and down a line, ready to draw the next line a pixel at a time. This is "raster scan".
Diagram for the clueless. Electron beam only ever illuminates a single spot at a time.
>The line is made of pixels
>phosphors creating color/light going through a mask are now pixels
Ya that crazy ass tech of involving a back light and liquid crystals creating PIXELS. Ya forget about that shit....
Oh ya that dot pitch shit. Ya ignore that shit too. CRTs have always been measured in PPI clearly.
Oh and what ever you do don't look about shadow mask and aperture grille.
Pixel does not mean "square block with 3 vertical rectangular segments". Pixel means "smallest logical element of the image". It doesn't matter what technology is used to display it. You could display pixels with mechanical elements if you wanted to (such displays exist).
I'm not aware of any CRT capable of displaying a singe pixel. It can display a line with a bunch of blink information.
Unlike a LCD which can display nothing but a pixel.
CRTs work in lines.
LCDs work in pixels.
All CRTs illuminate one pixel at a time. Because of phosphor persistence multiple pixels will be glowing at once, unless only a single pixel was illuminated.
A black pixel is still a pixel, so LCDs cannot display only one pixel either (except in the degenerate case of a single pixel LCD).
>All CRTs illuminate one pixel at a time. Because of phosphor persistence multiple pixels will be glowing at once, unless only a single pixel was illuminated.
Name me one CRT that was commercial available that could stop the electron gun mid pass to display a pixel. Or hell. Even skip the whole field.
And CRT aren't illuminating pixels. They're illuminate phosphors that go through a mask.
>A black pixel is still a pixel, so LCDs cannot display only one pixel either (except in the degenerate case of a single pixel LCD).
Not to LCDs
A LCD can display a black or blank pixel.
LCDs also display pixels.
>Name me one CRT that was commercial available that could stop the electron gun mid pass to display a pixel
I never claimed any CRT could do that.
>And CRT aren't illuminating pixels. They're illuminate phosphors that go through a mask.
Those are the same thing. The pixel is the phosphor considered logically. The phosphor is the pixel considered physically.
>A LCD can display a black or blank pixel.
The only meaningful distinction between black and blank would be between black and floating pixels (undriven voltage), and I am not aware of any LCD that implements floating pixels because that would be stupid and pointless.
On a CRT it's done by a alternating magnetic filed, which generated by the yoke driven by sawtooth generators.
It deflects the focused electron beam across on the screen in the same order as one is reading text.
The beam hits the phosphor and making it light up but for a brief moment (but doesn't last the entire frame), it all happens so precise and fast that not all but many human eyes perceive a whole image, some people see flicker more than other people depending on brightness and ambient lighting.
The phosphor "cools" down in a rather logarithmic way, which creates trails when a bright object moves on a dark background.
On LCD (active TFT matrix) it's done by a huge array of line and column drivers, selecting each individual pixel in the same order as reading text.
Each pixel can be viewed as FET transistor (hence the term TFT) which charges or discharges some sort of capacitor which will be the pixel, when charged it will block the light and it's also analogue.
These capacitors/pixels can take up several seconds to discharge when not driven by the transistor. (remember how it looks like if you turn off a GBC/GBA)
To correct the poor gamma and to create a AC signal on the capacitor to reduce stress on the crystals a certain technique is applied, it simply inverts either each 2nd column or line (many handhelds use this) or pixel (my PC monitor uses this) this pattern will switch each single frame.
Behind the LCD there's a reflective surface which is backlighted and a polarized filter to make the effects of the liquid crystal visible.
LCD works essentially the same as CRTs but yet different enough that lightguns/pens don't work and that controlling multiple pixels at once "to upscale" is never done at all but could work. Also LCDs can flicker too, either by bad design, wrong adjustment or defect.
That's how I understand it.
Pretty much any LCD with an active black light will have blank and black pixels.
>Those are the same thing. The pixel is the phosphor considered logically. The phosphor is the pixel considered physically.
No. Which is why in theory a CRT tube basically has infinite resolution just limited by it's hardware. At least the ones made by Sony in the later years of CRT dominance with aperture grille.
>Pretty much any LCD with an active black light will have blank and black pixels.
False, except possibly as a power saving measure in the extremely rare and expensive LCDs with scanning backlights. Certainly not in any gaming LCD. Post proof if you know otherwise (and clearly state what you mean by "blank").
>a CRT tube basically has infinite resolution
No. It has limited analog bandwidth, and it has fixed mask/grille size. But when used within spec the pixel/phosphor spot being two ways of thinking about the same thing is correct.
>No. It has limited analog bandwidth
Only limited by the tech.
>and it has fixed mask/grille size. But when used within spec the pixel/phosphor spot being two ways of thinking about the same thing is correct.
No aperture grille essentially has theoretical infinite horizontal resolution.
Due to the fact that CRTs don't display in pixels.
I love that we've come back to the pixel argument again. If I took a paintgun and sprayed it over the back of a paling fence, stroke by stroke, would the gaps where the paint showed be called pixels? Calling the motion of the paintgun or the supply of paint by that term is clearly incorrect. However, to measure the progress of the gun and it's salient outcome, the term seems convenient, if symbolic.
>separate vertical and horizontal sync
>RGB output from JAMMA arcade PCBs
Nice post. TY, anon.
>Only limited by the tech.
And faster-than-light travel is possible, only it's limited by physics.
>aperture grille essentially has theoretical infinite horizontal resolution.
It does not. See diagram.
>CRTs don't display in pixels
Yes, they do. A pixel is a logical concept, not a physical item.
>If I took a paintgun and sprayed it over the back of a paling fence, stroke by stroke, would the gaps where the paint showed be called pixels?
If you intended those gaps to be the smallest element of the image then yes.
>That generic graph isn't showing a whole lot.
It shows that you clearly don't have infinite horizontal resolution even if you magically had infinite analog bandwidth, because the smallest pixel size with a possible physical instantiation is at most the size of 3 three gaps in the grille.
>On a LCD they are physical.
On both an LCD and CRT they have physical instantiations. Both are equally real. There is no standard for the size or shape of the physical instantiation of a pixel.
Pic shows pixels made from mechanical parts. They are also "real".
No, it is flip discs. And it doesn't matter how they are updated, for all you know it could be updated with raster scan too (it probably is because that's a cheap way to do it and reduces peak power use).
Attached pic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vane_display#/media/File:Penn_Station_Clock_Vane_Display.jpg however is not pixels, because they have significantly different shapes, so you cannot transform images like you can with a pixel based display.
Fair enough lol.
Why? For my purposes, a CRT IS better than any LCD available... And it's fairly obvious that I was speaking about my own personal situation, not generalizing about which display type I thought was superior.
And I'm sorry, but when it comes to playing NES/Genesis/etc., CRT will always win because those systems look like pixelated garbage on flatscreen TVs.
There's nothing wrong with sharp pixels. Handheld systems and DOS mode 13h prove that blurring was not automatically intended. Many games use single pixel "dithering" type patterns to represent actual detail, eg. the keys of the typewriter on Crono's desk at the start of Chrono Trigger.
The problem with LCDs is the sample-and-hold blur, and this can be fixed with emulation + 120Hz + black frame insertion.
>The strobe is just a signal for the backlight to strobe.
Which is why all the frame data must be transfered first. This adds on average half a frame of latency (1 at the top, 0 at the bottom) compared to a CRT (in addition to normal LCD latency). 120Hz + BFI actually reduces latency.
I don't think you understand how a LCD works.
The strobe happens in the pixel's fall off time. The strobe will go whether there was a frame buffered or not.
It's synced with the refresh rate of the monitor. Not the fps.
It's not physically possible for it to not cause lag. If you strobe the backlight before all the data has transfered then you will get tearing. You have to wait for the complete data transfer. CRT displays the data immediately.
> If you strobe the backlight before all the data has transfered then you will get tearing
The strobe goes off during the pixel fall off time. The frame has already been displayed.
Some times it may be during the pixel's on time if it's made to be long because the strobe will cut it.
Either way it's in sync with the monitor's refresh rate. Not the frame.
>You have to wait for the complete data transfer. CRT displays the data immediately
Isn't true but common misconception.
>The frame has already been displayed.
And that is the source of the latency.
>Either way it's in sync with the monitor's refresh rate. Not the frame.
See >>2772353 . The monitor has no awareness of the content's FPS, so it makes no sense to use "frame" to refer to content frames.
>Isn't true but common misconception.
The only CRTs I'm aware of that buffer any data are the frame doubling 100Hz TVs. Normal CRTs send the data directly to the electron guns, so the only latency is sub-millisecond analog delay.