J-rpgs are UNPLAYABLE now. As a kid, you could be so easily amused, but boring as hell to an adult. It's all just a few menus, stat building. And there's no complexity to the stats or anything so it takes no thought.
Remember when you were shocked by the horror movies you watched as a kid? And, when you watch them now, they're not shocking anymore because you can see through all the gimmicks and cliches, and they all look fake to you now? The same principle applies to video games.
>go take a dump while they level up FOR you
IEvberyone always rants about how FFXII is some kind of masterpiece, but the plot is shit, the art direction is boring and generic, the music is forgettable, the characters are mostly pointless and there is no actual gameplay to the fucking thing.
And all the in-menu shit between the game playing itself, or you actually sitting there and watching battles is NOT gameplay, sorry.
At least FFI-X all make you give commands to every party member and take part in what's happening.
>Evberyone always rants about how FFXII is some kind of masterpiece
No they don't, we all bitch about how the game plays itself for you. There might be some contrarian hipsters that think otherwise, but they are far outnumbered.
Anyway, JRPGs appeal to a certain kind of person. You're not that kind of person, or aren't anymore.
I personally can't fucking stand soccer games, but it's one of the best selling genres on the planet. So they're OBVIOUSLY playable to someone.
JRPGs may be boring to you, but some people like the sense of adventure and classic RPG elements.
Personally, I prefer shorter games with more replay value these days. So JRPGs are out by design. They're generally very long and replay value involves a lot of doing the same things again. So it's not my cup of tea in general. I still dabble in certain odd titles and some classics though. Because they genuinely offer something that brainless action games or dull and generic WRPGs just don't.
Also, I like how you act like an ass, but then don't offer any real counter points in your OP. Like, if JRPGs are SO "unplayable", then what DO you play?
If you want people to take you seriously, then you really should think to include genuine arguments, and not just act like an asshole.
Of course, I suspect you're actually not acting. But whatever...
Actually as an adult they are perfect. I'm btw voat, /vr/, and messing around on a few other sites. I put the controller down. Do whatever the hell I want and watch a cut scene from time to time. Sometimes I even just change the source input on my tv and watch television. Life is pretty groovy anon.
W-rpgs are UNPLAYABLE now. As a kid, you could be so easily amused, but boring as hell to an adult. It's all just a few menus, stat building. And there's no complexity to the stats or anything so it takes no thought.
Platformers are UNPLAYABLE now. As a kid, you could be so easily amused, but boring as hell to an adult. It's all just a few platforms, and jumping. And there's no complexity to the jumping or anything so it takes no thought.
RTS's are UNPLAYABLE now. As a kid, you could be so easily amused, but boring as hell to an adult. It's all just a few units, and some building. And there's no complexity to the building or anything so it takes no thought.
Seriously, you can say this about any genre. Lame thread OP.
come on... do you really miss pressing "fight" five million times? because that's all the gambits really take care of. you can really get into the metagame of setting up complicated gambit chains, or you can just autopilot the basic shit and do everything else manually.
personally, I think the setting, story, and lore are all fascinating. that's why I love it so much. it felt like a real, lived in world. I have been playing games too long to put up with a billion repetitive menu commands, anyway.
>W-rpgs are UNPLAYABLE now.
The really old ones are yeah. Newer ones aren't very good either.
>Platformers are UNPLAYABLE now.
Still challenging and fun now.
>RTS's are UNPLAYABLE now.
Starcraft is still one of the best ever.
>Seriously, you can say this about any genre. Lame thread OP.
JRPGS are really shallow, and consist of just hitting a few menus over and over again. Everything is an abstraction, because of limitations. Later games have less abstrations. Meaning these really simple games are unplayable to anyone over 5.
Stop playing on Wait mode, casual.
Btw, you are contradicting yourself.
You either do everything manually or you "watch tjhe game play itself". You can't have both. Decide.
You problably didn't play it long enough, but I thought enough time had passed so we the FFXII is bad meme was over. We all know it is miles away many FFs. The one you really watch playing is that ridiculous FFXIII and there's no denying it.
>Again, you can say this about any genre.
You can but you're wrong. Platformers are platformers. There's not much to improve in the genre.
j-rpgs were so god damn simplified and abstract. Just some menus and a few numbers.
Enjoy my final reply troll. I won't provide you with the satisfaction of further conversation. Go ahead and have your autism blowout. Some of us actually spend time on the internet as part of our profession. I'd clearly never "o.O" in a conversation off of 4chan or with a person I'm working with. You are free to believe whatever you like. I have one question though. Food service or county work digging ditches/something similar?
Anyone who knows shit about games should know FF is a weak series. There are more tactical games (srpgs in general), more complex or demanding games (saga smt). The game's strength was in it's art
ff6 is one of the most beautiful snes games
ff7 one of the most beautiful ps1 games
How about because there is literally no challenge. You control like 2 characters maybe 3. No stratigies other then like 2 options. It's literally drawn like children's books to appeal to children. Do I need to go on?
the last thing i want from a game as an adult is 'challenge'. i'm looking for rote gameplay, nice character and setting design, some decent cutscenes. been playing dragons quest viii lately, it satisfies.
It's an easy genre to shit at but as I've grown older I've also began seeing the merits of it. It purposely drags you down into a special kind of tempo that makes you focus on the narrative and what your characters are doing even if isn't very intensive. I'd love to create something myself and experiment with that kind of interaction
Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.
Games that "ruined" JRPGs for me:
"Story" RPG: Star Ocean - Second Story
"Grindy" RPG: Disgaea
After playing those, there was really no need to ever play another JRPG. I still played them for a few years after that, but in hindsight I feel like I really could have stopped after those without missing out on anything significant in the genre.
I really enjoyed FF12 as well, though that was really its own style of game.
>The one you really watch playing is that ridiculous FFXIII and there's no denying it.
The FF that constantly kicks your ass if you aren't actively paradigm shifting? FF13 is one of the hardest FF games out there because it specifically addressed complaints that you can cruise through a great deal of the series by pressing fight.
But you wouldn't know that because you never got far enough to understand how the game is all about active paradigms, let me guess, chapter 3?
>the last thing i want from a game as an adult is 'challenge'
>been playing dragons quest viii lately, it satisfies
Ooh, shit, you're not going to like the game after Dhoulmagus, then.
Sucks to be you, I'm going to play Trails in the Sky SC in about 3 hours and I'll enjoy it.
I really enjoy 'em for their slower pace and relaxing, immersive atmospheres. It's just a feeling I don't get from those overly realistic WRPG's.
I'm looking forward to playing that new Dragon Quest with the retro mode on.
isn't he met somewhat early? you fight, he flees, posssibly running on water, later he returns in more powerful form? i think i'm near the end of the game and faced him initially months ago
i dont think ive died in the game, seems easy and pleasant even by rpg standards
I always felt like the main fun of a JRPG comes from A: building your characters and B: boss fights, while regular fights are just fodder for character growth (and a ground for testing them out). B either requires A to be fairly extensive in order to be fun or it needs complex mechanics that stand on their own. FFIV is my favorite example of a JRPG that has none of these, on top of a painfully dated story, and is consequently a horrible chore to replay today.
I agree. The amount of time spent on grinding sucks the fun out of the game.
But if you want a grinding game with "complexity to the stats" try Tactics Ogre. It's the game that defined the TRPG and it is still arguably the best in the genre.
You just can't go back though man. TFW.
Grinding is easy as fuck in TO... at least the PS1 version
>Get 2 clerics, unequip weapons and give thm the best armor
>Get them to fight each other in auto-battle over night
>swap them to witches or something that can use Incubus/Paralyze.
>go into a training battle with the dudes you want to level and your grossly overleveled clerics.
>sleep/paralyze themselves and get your party members to beat on them for 1 level per hit
>catch up to the level curve safely and easily
wow i've been trying to find the right word for the way they make me feel. it's like a combination of nostalgia and feeling safe while being under a warm blanket on a snowy day. cozy is perfect.
Practically every JRPG is a grindfest especially including almost everything made in Japan.
Are you shitting me? Grinding is the entire backbone of JRPGs in general. Then like, yay we saved the world, just us rag-tag kids.
The few games of the whole genre that are actually any good are rare as diamonds.
This whole board turned to shit. Not because of the OP, but because of every one else in the thread. Everyone is calling each other names and being rude as fuck. This board once was a haven for people who couldn't stand /v/'s childishness, but now every thread is filled with hostile posters, just like over there. It's really depressing.
That said, OP, I feel you. When I was a kid I loved JRPGs, but today I just can't stand playing them. They are just way too long, and because of work and social life and family I really have no time to play for long to get invested in the games story, atmosphere etc. I still love the concept of those games as well as the style most of those games have. I just can't enjoy playing them anymore.
I'm sure of I were NEET and single I could enjoy them again. But too bad, I have a life.
People countering the OP is why this board still has promise. "This whole genre is unplayable" type threads are bottom tier funposting. It is exactly the type of thread that /v/ gets.
No. In the old /vr/, this thread would have been largely ignored, as to discourage these type of horrid threads.
People, of course, would respond to a thread if someone actually had some well thought out criticisms and meaningful musings about the genre.
This. Random battles are fun in the beginning but when there are encounters every 5 steps or so, they become a chore. Yeah, there are more complicated JRPGs, but those just have bigger menu trees. They give the illusion of sophistication through obfuscation. Essentially, the game play is the same.
>Platformers are platformers. There's not much to improve in the genre.
Platformers can be improved by adding complexity, just like traditional shmups were improved into danmaku shmups. There are very few truly difficult platformers.
Even "complex" JRPGs boil down to finding the best attack and spamming it. Occasionally the best attack will change as new items and abilities unlock, or some gimmick fight requires a different best attack. Watch some JRPG speedruns to see how repetitive they are when played optimally.
>There are very few truly difficult platformers.
All of the Adventure Island games are very simple, but still very challenging.
I don't think complexity adds to the difficulty, I also don't think overcharged game design automatically means something is improved.
That's a one-dimensional kind of challenge (can you hit the tight timing window?). Modern shmups test several abilities as once. You have memorization heavy timing challenges, improvization against random patterns, and longer term resource management and planning. I don't know enough about platformers to say if there are any that reach this level of complexity, but I don't see why there shouldn't be.
>Occasionally the best attack will change as new items and abilities unlock, or some gimmick fight requires a different best attack.
Sounds several orders of magnitude more complex than combat in non-Japanese RPGs,
No thank you. It's not up to my standards anymore to play games with save any time you want feature - good sign that devs didn't know by themselves how it's supposed to be played. The fact that you suggest to use user modification only confirms it.
>Even "complex" JRPGs boil down to finding the best attack and spamming it.
Like any non puzzle game?
What are you even trying to argue, every combat based game boils down to using the best possible attack, JRPGs aren't any different.
Would it hurt you to get out of your ivory tower and realize how idiotic you sound?
Gradius all boils down to alternating Laser and Double depending on the stage, Doom is basically shotgun and plasma gun the game with the occasional BFG, Crash 3 is all about the bazooka once you get it and the occasional gimmick for bosses and so on, then it's fireball spam and DP for fighting games.
How does that even infringe the point that it all boils down to using the best attack?
And for your info there's tons of RPGs where you have to time your attacks, even shitty games like Legend of Dragoon.
Are you legitimately retarded?
Wait, let me put this straight, having to select options from a menu takes somehow less skills than running around and fire at things since you appear to somehow how meta knowledge of the game structures before you even played them, let alone knowing enemies' movesets and stats of course, I bet you could speedrun games like Wizardry 4 with no problems at all.
I guess you're a master of video or photo editing too since you just need to select things and options from menus then.
Yes, it takes less skill, regardless of whether you read guides/wikis/etc. or not. JRPGs played normally have zero execution difficulty. Watching replays of action games gives you a much smaller advantage than reading about JRPG mechanics. If you read about how to win a JRPG battle then you can win that JRPG battle. There's no test of your ability to think under pressure, there's no test of your ability to execute complex button combos, you don't even have to memorize things unless you're speedrunning. JRPGs are a casual genre.
>There's no test of your ability to think under pressure, there's no test of your ability to execute complex button combos, you don't even have to memorize things unless you're speedrunning. JRPGs are a casual genre.
A lot of shmups have blind spots for bosses or weapon patterns that make levels trivial.
Action games like Tomb Raider, Metal Gear, Doom or Quake can be completed effortlessly by knowing where enemies are and their scripts.
Fighting Games like Mortal Combat or KOF have several AI flaws that can be used to completely neuter any opponent.
Sidescrollers like Biomenace or Xanadu are a joke when you know both enemies and items locations.
Platformers like Kirby or SMW2 let you skip 90% of all levels by floating out of the screen, which means literally pressing right and jumping.
Having meta knowledge about any game makes them casual games, if you truly believe what you just wrote you're only a pompous asshole who hasn't branched out of a few genres in his whole life and thinks he's a big deal.
But please, be my guest and do post your playthrough of Wizardry 4, any Lunatic Dawn game or Romancing SaGa 2, I'm sure you'll never, ever get a game over.
Doom and Quake (on UV/Hard or Nightmare) take execution skill even if you know the AI exploits. And they are best played multiplayer in any case.
Fighting Games are definitely supposed to be played multiplayer.
Most platformers do not have such exploits, and there are plenty of platformers that are difficult enough that casuals will never 1CC them, eg. Ghost 'n' Goblins, Battletoads, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania 3, Bionic Commando, etc.
Wizardry 4 is legitimately difficult without external knowledge, but it's really a puzzle game not an RPG.
Perhaps there's something to be said about that. FF, after a while, becomes muscle memory. Pleasant repetitiveness.
You are made to understand that, given enough time spent and grind done, you will be victorious.
It's good for building patience.
I'm so glad to be back to travelling with Estelle. The first one was my GOTY and this looks like it probably will be too.
Text based games are UNPLAYABLE now. As a kid, you could be so easily immersed, but now you don't care as an adult. It's all just a few menus, maybe some map drawing. And there's almost no complexity to the puzzles or anything so it takes no thought.
Text based games are far better now than when they were commercially viable. Most of the Annual IF Competition winners are better than anything Infocom released (and a lot of them are on-topic, because the z-machine is a pre-1999 platform):
But with JRPGs, you don't even need to memorize anything. You can play through them lackadaisically without reading any strategy guide and still be able to beat them. This is the reason why the games I liked most when I was young were RPGs. They're fucking easy. The only reason you need meta knowledge for JRPGs is when you deliberately make game the harder to play by using underleveled and non-optimal characters and setting artificial restrictions.
I hate the term "interactive fiction". It's used by the same people who think games are art. I call them "text adventures", but "interactive fiction" is used in the official name of the competition so I had to use it there.
Why didn't the developers added level caps then? If the games were meant to be challenging, they would've done so. It's obvious grinding was what they had intended. It's how these games are meant to be played. I remember an old Square poster ad claiming multiple dozens of hours of game play for each of their games. Chrono Trigger in particular had up to "80+" hours of gameplay. This many hours of gameplay can't be achieved without grinding to level 99 for every character and replaying the game at least once.
I kinda understand OP. Back in the good old days I loved j-rpgs, nowdays they're next to unplayable to me due to how slow-paced the combat/gameplay is. Funny enough I still love the old snes era j-rpgs (because when I emulate them I can play them in turbo mode. That pretty much solves all of my issues).
>Why didn't the developers added level caps then? If the games were meant to be challenging, they would've done so. It's obvious grinding was what they had intended
Why did Konami put the Konami code in their games? If the games were meant to be challenging, they would've done so. It's obvious using the Konami code was what they intended.
>western RPGs usually -do- have complexity in their stats
Nigga you best be joking, FF2 as much as it was a glitched mess of a game already had more stat complexity than the vast majority of WRPG of the era, Stat systems in games like The Last Remnant now make 90% of WRPG shit their pants.
I'm not arguing with you about any of whatever you're sperging out about.
I'm just sick of seeing you talk up your 360 on a board where it's completely irrelevant, but good luck with that other with those other anons that clearly have you by the short hairs.
I'm not even whoever you're talking about and I never owned a 360, the game's a multiplat and it was really just an example for modern games, if you want another one there's plenty of modern titles like Elminage, Unlimited Saga or the new Uncharted Waters games, if you want old games you have a plethora of JRPGs with tons of great stat systems, Dark Law, retro SaGa games and Uncharted Waters again, Tactics Ogre...
You should do something about that paranoia of yours.
>a plethora of JRPGs with tons of great stat systems
Well there goes that argument...
I kid, sort of. Generally I agree with you. Etrian Odyssey has made most old JRPGs unplayable at this point.
>Why did Konami put the Konami code in their games? If the games were meant to be challenging, they would've done so. It's obvious using the Konami code was what they intended.
Doesn't count. Those codes are hidden from the player. You have either get them from a strategy guide or game tip hotline and pay out-of-pocket money. Even with the codes, the gameplay is just made a little easier.
By your logic there's no such thing as easy games. All developers intend for their games to be hard. In order to increase the challenge, you have handicap yourself by chopping off some of your fingers or make yourself retarded.
>think about playing a JRPG
>think, well in that case I might as well just read a book
What are some JRPGs worth playing for their story, guys?
JRPGs are one of my favorite genres. I'm the type that wants story with my gameplay.
Do ARPGs count? If so, try Tales of Phantasia. It SEEMS like it'll be a cliche'd "good vs evil" plot. But it isn't.
Oh it does, especially when you consider that no RPG had codes, while a lot of platformers or sidescrollers had those which were readily available even before the internet was widespread, in RPG you can grind to make life easier, in other games you just input a code on the start screen, same thing.
>By your logic there's no such thing as easy games.
On the contrary, but take that as you will.
You know you can spot a pleb when he says that grinding is totally not the most retarded choice because it's "legit" but having input cheat codes isn't, just like that moron who backpedaled saying that Wizardry 4 is a puzzle game.
The level design makes it unbearable now but I really loved it as a kid because it was my first JRPG ever (I always wanted to play FF7 but I couldn't because I had no PS; also in retrospect today I have to say that SC is much better than FF7 at least).
Look, just because it's Western made doesn't mean it's not a JPRG. JRPG is a genre specifying "not a real RPG most of the time" just like ARPG is not a real RPG most of the time, or hack'n'slash in pretty much 99% of the cases.
I played this recently and the super-slow combat ruins the game. The animations take forever, the action meter takes forever, it makes regular enemies a huge pain the ass. And later in the game enemies will make themselves transparent so you have to WAIT until you can attack them again.
>Look, just because it's Western made doesn't mean it's not a JPRG
>JRPG is a genre specifying "not a real RPG most of the time"
>ARPG is not a real RPG most of the time
Stop pulling my leg anon.
RPGs are about choices and consequences (retards from /v/ like to think that this means only "story splitting into X parts, herp derp"), not about imitating Microsoft Excel, old man.
This is not really something that your opinion is relevant on if you disagree, since my opinion is shared by the majority of the Elite Intellectual HQ of the Internet ( R
PGCodex) so that makes me automatically right.
>since my opinion is shared by the majority of the Elite Intellectual HQ of the Internet ( RPGCodex ) so that makes me automatically right.
Okay, now I know that you were indeed pulling my leg.
Not the guy you're arguing with, but you're fundamentally wrong. JRPGs are just RPGs that were made by Japanese companies. They started out based on Western games and table top RPGs (FFI is basically D&D).
As time went by they developed their own specifics that make them distinct from western RPGs, but an RPG made in America or Europe even if it was in a style similar to JRPGs would still be a western RPG.
ARPGs are simply another genre which is related to RPGs, but different enough that they don't really fit under the same category. Similar to Beat 'em Ups and Fighters, coming from similar roots, even having some degree of crossover with characters. But they're also fundamentally different genres.
>What are some JRPGs worth playing for their story, guys?
I enjoy RPGs, but I don't think any exist. Certainly no RPG comes anywhere close to even a middling book. If you don't like them for the combat and exploration, RPGs are really a pretty terrible genre. You get minuscule bits of story and character development that only account for maybe 5% of the game.
If you do like the gameplay in though, then the bits of story you get as you adventure along can be a nice addition.
op is a hipster elitest shit that plays only Chekoslovakian RPGs on his Amiga
Huh, and it really holds up that well for you? I only played it the once and it certainly was good for a video game, but I wouldn't call it a substitute for reading a good book. I didn't enjoy it enough to go back and replay though, so it could just come down to our tastes.
>Those guys have been discussing "What is an RPG" for the last 10 or so years
Yes, that's why our opinion makes your opinions irrelevant. Choices and consequences simply wins every time you'd make a poll nowadays.
This post made me feel physically sick.
Planescape Torment's story is better than most of the popamole fantasy books out there including (probably your favorite) the ASoIaF series.It's obviously not better than masterpieces like Lord of Light but something in the corner of my mind tells me that you didn't have those in mind when you were making your outrageous statement.
>This post made me feel physically sick.
>Planescape Torment's story is better than most of the popamole fantasy books out there
Maybe its that I don't tend to read much fantasy anyways and haven't read or seen any Game of Thrones anything. It's not a genre that interests me much in general.
I only compared it to D&D books because I had read a few of those as a teenager and PT is part of the D&D world. I put it's story about on par with some of the novels, which I count pretty low compared to most other books.
But also like I say here >>2775484 I only played the game once since I liked it well enough but it didn't blow my mind so much I wanted to replay it. So it could partially just come down to our tastes.
an rpg is a turn based game in which you decide the actions of a group of characters, and both the degree of their progress and the success of their actions has a degree of randomness, like throwing dice.
it doesnt need much story, or a story with branching paths, or asking you for opinions or what you want to do.
>an rpg is a turn based game
Traditionally, but not in all cases or entirely. Several RPGs have action aspects to them but are still part of the genre. Tales of Phantasia for example or Final Fantasy VI with the active time battle system which is not truly turn based.
>decide the actions of a group of characters
Not necessarily. There are single character RPGs.
>both the degree of their progress and the success of their actions has a degree of randomness
They don't all have randomness either.
>it doesnt need much story, or a story with branching paths, or asking you for opinions or what you want to do.
I haven't disagreed with a post this hard in years, makes me feel alive.
Everything you hate about FF12 is what I love about it. The plot is take it or leave it, i'll give you that, because it's mostly POLITICS, which I'm fine with, but what work is that the characters are very good in this game.
I'm going to take a moment to juxtaposition the cast of FFXII with it's predecessor, FFX just for an example. Personally, I hate FFX. I think it's characters were boring and shallow. here's why. in FFX, Yuna wanted to become the ultimate summoner or whatever, and everyone else in the party was her bodyguards, therefore though there may have been little peeks into their personality, their goals and motivations were all one and the same, accompany Yuna on her journey to Zanarkand.
In FFXII we have an ensemble cast of six different characters, all brought together by fate and each having their own individual motivations & desires. There's no real main character in XII which I love because it's equally about all of them and how they interact in their world.
Art direction boring & Generic? no gameplay? this is where I know you're just reaching for bad things to say. The game takes place in a well thought out world and I enjoyed the gambit system, because I thought of it as another extension of character development, I get to determine how my party acts in battle. I would consider things like the license board and the characters personality what they would do in certain situations, and I set their gambits up accordingly.
For example, if I had Fran & Nalthier in the party, I made sure to set a gambit so that if one of them was getting ganged up on, the other would stop what they're doing and help, because they're buddies like that.
so yeah. I guess my point is... I want to go play FFXII again...
RPG simply means that character has potential of growth and his skill level is more important for overcoming the obstacles than player's.
It's a fundamental difference from other types of video games(unlike that nonsense about presence of choices and consequences) and this definition also fits all RPG subgenres from dungeon crawlers and JRPGs to ARPGs and WRPGs about dialog choices.
>RPG simply means that character has potential of growth and his skill level is more important for overcoming the obstacles than player's.
You're all over thinking this way too much. RPG is simply the name for the genre of games that evolved out of pencil and paper roleplaying games. All an RPG is, is a game that follows in that tradition. But by this point so many games have been made that they have spread into sub-genres.
Sorry but it's you who are retarded and knows nothing about the genre. Like for example there was fuckton of side-scrolling ARPGs on arcades, but your walnut sized brain probably refuses to call them anything besides platformers.
>All an RPG is, is a game that follows in that tradition.
= So a game that follows choices and consequences. That's all what pencil and toilet paper roleplaying games are about. Any one without choices and consequences is just a war game (i.e. like Warhammer), not a roleplaying game.
>>laughing stock of the internet
Let me guess, you're from RPGWatch or RPG.net or whatever that website is called where the admins are having discussions about needing more diversity and trans characters in their roleplaying sessions and banning people for not being enthusiastic enough about it.
RPGCodex is a tiny forum (much tinier website than 4chan or Leddit) yet they are treated extremely seriously disproportionally to their size.
Not elitist, it's just objectively the #1 place on the Internet with the highest average IQ (for places to discuss hobbies on).
Play Shin Megami Tensei 1 and 2 and Chrono Teigger for a decent /vr/ related JRPG experiece
Nocturne proves there are still relevant /v/ related JRPGs as well. Can't think of anything more current that's great tho
>but yours top list of CRPGs (whatever it means) was ridiculed even on funnyjunk and 9gag.
...wow. Just...wow. I am speechless. Some retard makes a 'meh-meh' and posts it on one of those retard sites and somehow that makes it legit 'ridicule' of the Codex to you? Like you're obviously a retard yourself just for browsing those sites, but goddamn, your retardation actually almost made me a bit bothered.
At least now I can rest easily know that people who call the 'dex "faggotry" are 9gagers and /v/ crossies.
You remember me from both. It's me, Drago Fireheart indeed!
Putting aside all this meaningless debate about what "JRPG" or "RPG" means (hint: it's arbitrary), I think the point OP was trying to make is the classic menu and turn-based combat (ATB is still turn based) is boring, especially considering that many of the games that it are quite simple, like FF6 is a piece of cake, the gameplay is easy and consists of choosing "ultima" over and over. Sufficiently complex and difficult turn+menu based combat can be enjoyable due to how it makes you think, but older games often were just extremely simple and therefore their gameplay is more an obstacle than anything else. The only reason these games are still remembered and rated highly today are for everything BUT their gameplay: their story, their art, their music, etc etc. And for some people the boring, slow, and brainless combat is too prevalent to enjoy even those elements which is something I can agree with. I think saying "unplayable" was a bit of an over-reaction. It's very possible to shut your brain off and spam attacks through infinite random battles. However it's also very reasonable to find that lack of engagement a turn off and to just not play it. There. Different strokes for different folks, etc etc, have a good day.
Note: You may be compelled to make posts, as I've seen here, that games like FF6 had fun and engaging combat systems. In that case, you are just wrong. If an 8 year old can easily cruise through the games ( and the standard turn-and-menu-based-combat game was easily beaten by children) then your combat is not complex and therefore is simple and therefore is boring to any adult with a brain. The first reply to this thread indicated that some people derive enjoyment from boring mechanics and that's fine but for the sake of productive discussion don't pretend that these game mechanics were complex or engaging.
Well retarded sites are created for posting retarded shit, so screencaps from AutismCodex are that popular there that you don't even need to visit them to know about it.
Sounds like a gay furry name, desu
speaking of, there are some JRPGs that retains the similar "boring combat" as you mentioned, but diverts the thought process into the other aspects of the game (such as party customization), like FF5.
Man you're super butthurt /v/-9gagger kiddie. You're literally the first person in history I've seen say that the Codex is "embarrassing". The only realistic explanation for this I can see is that you're one of the permanently buttblasted SJWs who can't stand the fact that we're both the most intellectual RPG forum on the entire Internet and the fact that we have free speech and not admins that discuss if there's enough transdiverse characters in their "pen and paper sessions" and ban those who disagree. Even the majority of 4chan would probably side with us over your 9gag/Tumblr cesspool of the Internet (I don't even care where you come from, SJW).
>then your combat is not complex and therefore is simple and therefore is boring to any adult with a brain.
Then don't play games aimed at children (Protip:90% of videogames) and move on with your life?
>but for the sake of productive discussion don't pretend that these game mechanics were complex or engaging.
Mechanics being complex or engaging depend on the level of the player, having convoluted mechanics doesn't equal to having complex mechanics and vice-versa.
Some people think that games like FFT or Daggerfall have complex mechanics, others think they're boring and shallow, it all comes down to how experienced the player is, just like any other game.
Your dickwaving about objectively complex mechanics in games is just a pathetic way of legitimizing your opinions, I know plenty of ten years old kids that are literal monsters at Puyo Puyo and destroy me most of the times, admittedly because I never had a firm grasp of planning combos, and yet those very same kids can't play any NES or SNES MM game as well as they play Puyo Puyo or Zelda and say that it's too complicated even though today's Zelda games are far richer in terms of mechanics.
Same with every RPG, being an "adult with a brain" as you said, means anything unless you've already got tons of experience in a genre, even if you're a master of classic horis like Gradius or R-Type you're inevitably going to stumble during a transition to Danmaku, going from Mario to Umihara Kawase(both children games for the record) is not easy at all, even going from action games to certain RPGs is problematic at times, especially if you play certain games like old SRW or FE because while obscenely simple the mechanics are fucked up and the games can be very ruthless(or unfair for people like you) at times.
I'm not answering your shitty irrelevant question, I am replying to the picture you posted, autistic 9gagger fedora tipper. Now go back to your containment board please >>>/mlp/, or I will tell your favorite socjus diva that you were acting non-inclusive and triggering by saying the "a-word" on the Internet.
Tell me one thing that's wrong with it you 9gagging turd.
It's ordered from #1 in the top left corner, going left to right (I don't expect you to realize that on your own, I am not a cruel man).
Anyone who'd disagree with the top 5 alone is clearly a pleb with shit taste in RPGs (although I'd change the order slightly).
>To be fair, I've often fount the opinions of RPG Codex to be slightly snooty and jaded.
There's not much you can expect from a circlejerk of close minded nerds with delusions of grandeur.
So you are pleb and proud, man, you started of as a 9gag loving /v/ crossie SJW and you still keep on getting more subhuman. A gift that keeps on giving, truly.
I don't even want to know what kind of 'RPGs' you like, it's like asking a 3 year old what their favorite anyhting is.
>close minded nerds
He says, about the most open minded place on the Internet. Just because we don't ban people (or try to kill them) for not supporting transAfrican genderfluid characters and don't complain about too few of them in Torment: Tides of Memera like you do doesn't mean we're close minded.
There's actual transdeviant posters on RPGCodex too, and all other kind of crazies like you that we tolerate, because we're the definition of open minded elites.
Look, you can stop false flagging that hard.
This joke has got out of hand, you were funny but now you're getting old.
Nobody with a sane mind gives a shit about which kind of special seekrit club you're from, the internet isn't an authority in any way.
If you're bored and want to shitpost there's /v/ or /b/ for that.
>Nobody with a sane mind gives a shit about which kind of special seekrit club you're from, the internet isn't an authority in any way.
But literally the only reason we're talking about it is because someone (probably you) was extremely butthurt at the mention of RPGCodex (in an appropriate tone) and he started claiming all sorts of silly things about it, in his anal devastation.
I'm not even the guy you're arguing with, but I guess that you're seriously one of those lunatics from that place.
Behaving like a tourettic idiot isn't going to help your cause anyway, you're getting the opposite results of what you seem to want and profess.
I'd tell you to get your prozac but I doubt it would make any difference at this point since the thread has gone to shit.
If you really think there's only three people on 4chan, I don't know what to tell you, you're only making a fool of yourself.
Yes, of course there's suddenly 10 people posting in a thread on /vr/ , coincidentally just when someone who's butthurt about RPGCodex appears in the thread which was completely dead before that.
Actually I think that's attributable to the inevitable attention it's attracting from being a complete and utter derailed shitshow.
People are throwing in their 2 cents and getting their X-tra Large popcorn buckets.
In fact I came here to see why this thread suddenly came up from the bottom pages.
You're just blinded by your own spite because someone offended your precious website, get over it and grow a pair, I already told you that I don't give a damn about where you come from.
People like when someone publicly embarrasses themself.
Are you retarded? I posted in this thread since it was made, why the fuck should you get new IPs if I was following this thread from the very beginning?
Are you that sociopathic?
I generally agree with you. Turn based combat can be extremely challenging and fun if the options you have at your disposal are complex enough. Not quite RPGs, but roguelikes are a great example of that in the extreme. Dungeon crawlers also tend to lean on the more on that side as well.
JRPGs have an interesting history though. They began as Japanese versions of WRGPs and tabletop games. Final Fantasy specifically is very heavily based on Dungeons and Dragons.
Final Fantasys II and III, but II in particular gives the played a lot of control over the growth of their party and access to a large number of spells to give many options on how to approach it. Neither was anywhere near as popular as the first Final Fantasy.
Then Final Fantasy IV came out. Which is still part of the RPG genre, but far more streamlined and story based. You have very few options in combat and your ability customize your party and their growth is almost non-existent. Instead of growing your party and combat, the game's main focus is on it's story. As a result Final Fantasy IV was extremely popular and seen as one of the greatest games of all time.
With that, Final Fantasy IV became the template that most other JRPGs would seek to imitate. That's the point where JRPGs really became a distinct genre.
Not the guy(s) you're talking to, but I've been on the internet and into RPGs pretty much since both have existed and I don't know that I've ever even heard of RPGCodex. But the phrase " the most intellectual RPG forum on the entire Internet" is laughable.
It's also pretty hilarious that you held up Planescape Torment as an example of great video game storytelling and then used as your "proof" that you think it's better than fantasy genre fiction. I don't know whether you laugh or feel bad for you.
>Any one without choices and consequences is just a war game (i.e. like Warhammer), not a roleplaying game.
What are you talking about? War games are all about choices as well. Games in general by definition are all about choices and consequences. That's what makes them games.
The fact that that definition is so broad that it includes side scrolling arcade action games as RPGs is why it's such a bad description.
I could define a fighting game as any game where you fight opponents and then easily 80% of all games ever made would be fighting games.
Your definition is simply incorrect. Just because two genres share similar game design choices like gaining experience does not automatically make them part of the same genre.
First off, Cadash already doesn't fit your definition because XP growth is not more important than player skill. It also discards a lot of classic WPRGs like Ultima and Wizardy where player skill is FAR more important than grinding for levels.
You're also discounting that the "roleplaying" part of RPGs, which is an important aspect of the genre. Where in you explore a world with your character or characters, talking to NPCs and playing through an adventure similar to the tabletop RPGs the genre grew out of.
I'm sorry, but that definition is simply wrong in many ways and too broad in others. It's essentially worthless.
>I don't know that I've ever even heard of RPGCodex.
Yes, because it's only for Elite intellectuals. It's not laughable really, I mean sure we do use it as a joke but ultimately and objectively it is a fact. There is no better place on the internet to discuss RPGs than that, or anything else actually. However, do not mistake this for advertising - I definitely don't want any more 4channers there. You guys who register there are very low quality posters 90% of the time.
>It's also pretty hilarious that you held up Planescape Torment as an example of great video game storytelling and then used as your "proof" that you think it's better than fantasy genre fiction. I don't know whether you laugh or feel bad for you.
In other words:
>it's hilarious because I find it hilarious
name a better RPG video game storytelling than PST, come on.
It just shits on 90% of high fantasy fiction books out there (it's better than the average).
Also, not that KotOR 2 is particularly great, but it's storytelling is better than any other Star Wars universe (more like franchise) story ever told, including the original trilogy of movies. Mostly just because there's so little to compete with in this case.
>I could define a fighting game as any game where you fight opponents and then easily 80% of all games ever made would be fighting games.
Do you even know what fighting games are?
They're one of the few actually strict and easily classifiable games out there.
>just because two genres share similar game design choices like gaining experience does not automatically make them part of the same genre.
It usually does when those are key features of a genre.
>like Ultima and Wizardy where player skill is FAR more important than grinding for levels.
Wizardry was 50% about getting levels 40 about getting gear and 10% strategy.
You can't beat Werdna without Tiltowait or good equipment, your abilites are bound to levels so of course you need to get to a level high enough to unlock those spells.
>Where in you explore a world with your character or characters, talking to NPCs and playing through an adventure similar to the tabletop RPGs the genre grew out of.
Completely unnecessary, the classic Wizardry trilogy had barely more than 10 NPCs which were really proxies for unlocking doors and getting key items, Vagrant Story doesn't have any NPC to speak of just like the vast majority of SRPGs didn't either.
>There is no better place on the internet to discuss RPGs than that, or anything else actually.
That's exactly how I feel about the tiny community website I've been a part of for years as well. The difference is that I don't suffer under the delusion that anyone outside of our group cares.
>name a better RPG video game storytelling than PST, come on.
I agree with the other guy. PT has a good story for a video game, but video games are an inherently poor medium for storytelling.
I don't think it comes anywhere near a lot of novels. Is it better than most fantasy genre fiction? Probably, but that's really not a very high bar to set. That's why it was funny.
>They're one of the few actually strict and easily classifiable games out there.
Exactly, which is why redefining them super broadly like that definiton does with RPGs would be idiotic.
>Exactly, which is why redefining them super broadly like that definiton does with RPGs would be idiotic.
RPGs aren't as formulaic as other genres.
Would you say Daggerfall or Morrowind are FPS?
Is Gothic a MH predecessor because you can carve monster parts and make armors and weapons out of those?
Is PSO a TPS with some melee sprinkled in it?
Is Vagrant Story a platformer?
How would you define a book like The Master and Margarita? A fantasy book? A fairytale? A satirical book?
Certain genres aren't easily classifiable, that's why most people say that certain games that have heavy RPG elements are classified as RPGs, thus the birth of A-RPG, S-RPG and so on.
It doesn't include Streets of Rage, right? It includes games which were designed, created and marketed as ARPGs not games from other genres, their main gimmick was being an RPG on arcade and they shared the essence part of RPG. You also don't understand the part about skill. It's not about how hard it is, it's about impact of character growth in comparison to player's skill. Even the best player will have troubles with naked character, while at the same time full retard can steamrolling the game with the levelcapped one. Which can be described as character's skill is more important than player's, just what said in definition.
>thus the birth of A-RPG, S-RPG and so on.
Which are separate genres from the traditional RPG. That's along the line of what I'm saying. But also that there's more that defines a traditional RPG than simply XP gain being more important than player skill. That's one debatable aspect, but not the only or defining one.
I would count daggerfall and morrowind as action RPGs. They have RPG trappings but take place in a real time environment and combat is sort of action based.
PSO is more of a Diablo derivative than an RPG offshoot and Diablo itself is an offshoot of roguelikes, as opposed to traditonal RPGs.
Monster Hunter is in virtually no way an RPG.
I haven't played Vagrant Story, but my understanding is it's an action RPG with some platforming.
>Master and Margarita
Nice pull, and purposefully hard to pin down. I think books are harder than games to pigeon hole into genres as well, but certain ones are very clear.
Regardless, ignoring all genres I would not put Planescape Torment on the same level as most novels. That's my opinion though, and you're free to disagree if you think otherwise.
>That's exactly how I feel about the tiny community website I've been a part of for years as well.
Well you're wrong about it. Because RPGCodex is not a tiny community, only tiny relatively to big websites like Leddit and 4chins. It still has at least a thousand active daily posters and maybe 5 thousand lurkers.
>but video games are an inherently poor medium for storytelling.
Said almost always by people who wouldn't even be able to define good storytelling to begin with. Just parroting stuff you read on the Internet.
The main thing what makes PS:T's story so good is the fact that it is a video game - it would NEVER work as a book (which was objectively proven by how god damn retarded the 'novelization' of it was). Same goes for all the other best of video games storylines (in other genres, i.e. Silent Hill 2, the only good Silent Hill story ever made, would never work as anything other than a video game, etc).
Yeah I get where he's going with that definition, I just think it's much too minimalist. Whatever though, I don't know how much I care to debate it this much. If you or he wants to define RPGs that way you're free to, but I disagree with the definition. If this was some sort of official universal definition we were hashing out I'd put more effort in, but at this point it's clear we're not going to agree with each other so there's little point in going in circles.
Yeah, it's just the only thing that in my opinion unified every type of RPGs, which you simply dismiss as completely different genres, that's why I find it reasonable to define RPG like that.
You went with a definition broad enough that it encompasses all the sub genres. Like the description that they're just about choices and consequences, I think it's simply too broad to really mean much of anything. If it works for you then whatever, but I think it's a largely meaningless definition.
>You went with a definition broad enough that it encompasses all the sub genres.
Yes and all that sub genres have an 'RPG' word in them. Don't get what you find meaningless in that, but whatever.
Shoot 'em ups and Beat 'em ups both have "em up" in the name, but I wouldn't lump the genre's together. Might as well just go with choices and consequences and change every genre to "game"
>but I think it's a largely meaningless definition.
Every genre definition is mostly irrelevant
Mario and Jumping Flash are both platformers but the gameplay is completely different, hell even SMW is completely different from Mario 64.
SFII is different from Tekken 2 but they're still fighting games, same with Bushido Blade.
Gradius and Dodonpachi are both STGs but the base design design is completely different.
Gran Turismo and Ridge Racer have completely different philosophies behind their design but still a common background.
ReVolt is a kart game like Crash Team Racing but they have some pretty different design choices.
RPGs aren't any different, you're making a big fuss over a generic label, it's like complaining that a tomato isn't anything like an apple, but it's still fruit.
If you base your whole opinion around JRPGs on DQ or FF, sure.
There are a number of JRPGs that have quite a bit of depth to their mechanics.
I would say if you're looking for depth in SNES RPGs, you probably won't find it. Although there are games that go against the norm and have something different.
Oh looks like you're still butthurt that your forum is shit and only good for shitposting while the Codex is the best place on the Internet for intellectual discussions of all kinds (but mostly RPGs), but we don't want you there because you're a filthy 4channer (most likely already registered there as 'Neckbeard Shitlord').
yeah i feel ya. i used to love jrpgs, but i manly play games like mario and such nowadays because im tired of menus, cutscenes and dialogue and repetitiveness, i just want a challenge that i can win or lose. jrpgs arent challenges, theyre more like books where every page requires pressing A a dozen times to turn
I hate RPGCodex because they're constantly insulting all the classic RPGs of my childhood, Final Fantasy 7+, Persona 4, Oblivion, Fallout 3, you name it, they hate it. Shaking my h.
Are you retarded? New Vegas is great for what it is - all bad things about it stem from the fact that they had to use the Fallout 3 engine and shit. And no, we don't like Final Fantasy VII, not even the weaboos do.
Pathetic strawmanning scum.
lol is that your response?
Are you really serious, that's how the most intelligent, intellectual RPG forum on the internet defines an RPG? Choices and consequences?
At this point I don't know if this is 10/10 baiting or you people are really that retarded.
>Are you really serious, that's how the most intelligent, intellectual RPG forum on the internet defines an RPG? Choices and consequences?
Yes. Feel free to register on the forum and find out why, but I bet you wouldn't even think about trying that because you're a scared SJW who knows he's gonna get intellectually raped and tastefully torn apart by our superior logic.
Name me a game of any genre that is not about choices and consequences. Your definition of course includes RPG games, because it's the basic definition of any game.
Also, I hate women. :)
Wow, this thread looks heated. I still play, and complete, tons of jrpgs. I always embellish the stories in my head. You know, imagine motivations for characters' actions or make up personalities for generic NPCs. It's super enjoyable and adds a little more conscious interaction with the medium, you guys should try it sometime.
I'm a librarian and mediocre novelist so I guess that's where I'm coming from. Always keep a good book handy for the overworld trips to dungeons/grinding times; although I hardly ever feel the need to grind in most games after the NES era.
Nice responding only to that part friend. How being a misogynist makes one a feminist ally or SJW I don't know, but let's drop that gag and get back on track.
Can you name me a game that isn't designed around choices and consequences? Ohh most intelligent overlord of wisdom.
It's about the AMOUNT of choices and consequences (compared to other genres) you dumb fucking inbred SJW cunt.
It's like saying "oh yeah well CS:GO is a platformer like Supper Mario because you can jump in there too!".
You fucking idiot.
But everything you do in any game is all about choices and consequences. Literally. Tetris, Mario, everything. If anything, especially old RPGs are the worse as evidenced by FFIV where for large portions of the game your only real choice is attack, defend or run.
Name me any game, ANY GAME that's that's fundamentally built on a basis of making choices and then dealing with the consequences. Do you jump on the goomba or over it? Do you put your block on the left or the right? Move pawn first or knight?
Anything, come on.
Dude, all your posts are half name-calling. Never been to RPG Codex myself, but is this what they're like when angry? Shit, you guys should all have grown out of getting legitimately angry over internet arguments years ago.
Congrats, you managed to find one of the least choices and consequences meme-games out there for your pathetic attempt at a shitpost.
No, you fucking retarded idiot. Linear mechanics based on press a button something happens are NOT choices and consequences. The choices and consequences need to be made *in universe* (realized in the universe and acknowledged in the universe). The game cares fuck all what you do with a "goomba" whatever that is - that's just the game's arbitrary mechanics - nothing in the universe reacts to the "goomba" being placed somewhere.
Fucking sub 100 IQ SJW sheep.
>You're a complete idiot
>gets completely rhetorically rekt
>"wah you're a complete idiot"
Once again, the inferior 4chan SJ/v/ shitposter meets a Elite PC Master Race Codexer and ends up being pounded to an amorphous blob. Congratulations.
New poster here and also a cute girl, man these RPGCodex guys are so Alpha and so smart, they really showed you 4chan guys what losers you are. No wonder they us while you stay permavirgins.
The definition you are giving is simply ridiculous. I will grant there's a possibility that a decent definition for the RPG genre exists which could incorporate the way choices and consequences work which is specific to the genre.
But if it does, you're not explaining effectively it at all. What you are saying is so broad and ill defined that it means virtually nothing. You reduce your posts to slurs and swearing as an attempt to cover up that what you're saying is completely ridiculous and so broad that it would define chess, Panel de Pon and Street Fighter all as RPGs.
There's no other word for that than idiotic.
>The definition you are giving is simply ridiculous
And yet almost universally agreed upon by wise old meisters who have been discussing "what is an RPG" since way before you were born, kid.
Go reblog how angry you are on your Tumblr blog.
Sorry, I just found it too funny that the guy claiming to be from the most intellectual forum on the internet was making some of the silliest broad stroke definitions I've ever seen and swearing up and down like a 13 year old. There's just something delightful about shutting down someone who's both stupid and angry.
Even though I did and still do suspect he's just a fisherman imitating him for laughs I couldn't resist. I have leaves to rake though so I'll leave it here.
The RPG genre didn't exist when I was born. If they really do have a solid definition of the RPG genre, then you're just explaining it so badly that it makes no sense. I don't know which is funnier honestly.
Also I'm not on tumblr, nor angry. This has been the best part of my day so far. I seriously can't stop laughing, it's so great. Anyways, leaves. Have fun with your intellectuals, friend. :)
>the silliest broad stroke definitions I've ever seen and swearing up and down like a 13 year old.
From my experience, you'll find someone there that gets all snooty about one thing or another.
The thing I've found in a lot of people there though is a general dislike or sometimes even hatred of other genres.
I don't see why it's impossible to enjoy both RPGs and action games. They both can have depth to their gameplay, they just require somewhat different skillsets.
That tends to happen with a lot of genres. Whatever it is, it's deepest fans become convinced it's the best genre or even the only really good genre.
I think when people get very invested in one thing like that, so that it takes up a lot of their time or at least a lot of their gaming time they feel the need to convince themselves their time isn't being wasted. The easiest way to do that is to dismiss other genres as being too casual, to difficult, too story based, not enough or whatever. That's my guess anyways.
>Brote Ams Pill'
I had to google that because I'd never heard of it. All that came up was a bunch of reddit, youtube, tumblr and twitter. Sorry I'm not up to date on your social media celebrities.
Why doesn't it surprise me that now you're toting youtube ecelebs as proof that your forum is the greatest hive of wisdom anywhere?
Also just for the record, "lel ironic" cringeworthy screen names are still pretty lame.
For me there are just too many types of games that I like to ever want to pin myself down to just one genre. It can make it hard to decide what to play next, and I'll tend to go in cycles. Playing one heavily for a while and then movin onto another. But with so many amazing games out there, I'm happy for that to be the hard decision to make.
I usually have some sort of RPG/strategy game/roguelike on the go in addition to whatever more action oriented game or genre I'm into at the time though.
That's like 0/10 man. Come on, are you even trying at this point?
Also just for giggles, why the social justice tilt to your trolling? I haven't said anything even vaguely social justicey and don't even have any social media accounts. So why go with 'tumbrfag' and 'socjust turd' Is that just your one go to put down you use on everything? Your insults lose a lot of impact when they don't relate at all to who you're insulting. It's kind of weird, honestly.
1) I don't need to try. I win by means of existing alone. I am ubermensch, you are untermensch. Hitler is on my side.
2) Only soc.jus. losers get butthurt about RPGCodex. No one else would have reasons to get mad over "some RPG forum".
>No one else would have reasons to get mad over "some RPG forum".
You perhaps misunderstand. I don't care one way or the other about the forum. I'm simply pointing out that the RPG definition you are saying you got from them is laughably ridiculous.
Whether that's because their definition is really that bad, or you're just not intelligent enough to relay it accurately I don't know. But either way, someone claiming to be from the "Elite Intellectual HQ of the Internet" and then speaking the way you are is rather humorous.
There's no butthurt about anything, your definitions are laughable and I'm laughing at you over them.
>I'm simply pointing out that the RPG definition you are saying you got from them is laughably ridiculous.
No, you are not pointing it out. You are just saying that, you didn't actually showed a single point how it's not literally the most perfect definition of RPGs.
I'm guessing that the definition of RPG to a sheep like you is:
>it has stats/leveling/xp
>it has a funtasy story, yeeah!
>it has character building!!
and of course
>it has romance, tee hee~!
and that none of your favorite RPGs are in the RPGCodex top 10 of RPGs.
It's all about the story, pal. That's literally the reason jRPGs got popular, because no other genre could provide interesting stories back then because game design was more concerned with making things fun or challenging.
They declined in popularity because nowadays you can tell a good story in a first person shooter (Bioshock) or a puzzle game (Portal), or even western RPGs have more involved mechanics, so jRPGs have nothing to offer nowadays.
Think of them like of reading a book with some puzzle minigames (fights) in the way.
>It's all about the story, pal. That's literally the reason jRPGs got popular,
I hope you mean it's because their stories were always appropriately infantile, not 'deep' or 'good' (as in 'good writing').
>you didn't actually showed a single point how it's not literally the most perfect definition of RPGs.
Except that the way you've described it is also so broad that easily half the games in existence would then be defined as RPGs.
RPGs are simply the video game genre that evolved out of table top pencil and paper roleplaying games. They've come so far and changed so much over the years, splitting off into various other genres like strategy and action. Roguelikes are another branch on the same tree, not RPGs exactly but also born out of pencil and paper table top games.
Most JRPGs outside of SaGa games are very simple and streamlined compared to western RPGs. Especially after Final Fantasy IV which defined the genre and is one of the most simple, stripped down "RPG" games ever at that point.
I fucking bet that this is the same guy who refuses C&C as definition of RPGs.
Fucking weaboo shitter.
>also so broad that easily half the games in existence would then be defined as RPGs.
It fucking isn't you mongoloid.
Read it again. There's painfully few games marketed as RPGs that actually have, IN UNIVERSE ACKNOWLEDGED CHOICES AND CONSEQUENCES (in universe).
Hey, original guy you responded to here. You'll never believe this, but I know sexbad personally. Funny guy. And, come on, ALL handles are cringe-worthy, even if you pretend they're ironic.
Ah, the good old "what defines a RPG" debate.
Really, the problem is that video game genres as a whole are not very good, and only describe one or two mechanics within the game. You can have two games in the same genre that are entirely different.
Video game genres generally don't take into account setting, themes, or pretty much anything aside from some mechanical component. And then of course you have JRPG and WRPG, and no one can agree on whether that refers to the geographical location they were made in, or some common thematic element shared in those games. Either way, it's stupid and tells you very little of value.
"action adventure" is probably the worst genre name. You might as well just say "it's a video game".
tl;dr: this argument is completely pointless and never goes anywhere. Everyone is going to have different definitions that are influenced by their own experience.
We got a sane one here, fellas. Douse him with shitposts till he mind breaks.
jRPGs and western RPGs are pretty much two unrelated genres. Their names describe that they're both inspired by tabletop RPGs, but they don't have that much in common.
Also let me politely remind you that in your original post here >>2775306 all you say is that RPGs are "choices and consequences (retards from /v/ like to think that this means only "story splitting into X parts, herp derp"), not about imitating Microsoft Excel, old man"
It's only after I pointed out how ridiculously broad that definition is that you then went on about "AMOUNT" of choices here >>2778596 . Until I pointed out that was just as broad and ill defining.
Only now are you insisting (in all caps) that it's the in universe acknowledged choices that are really important.
Like I said earlier, I don't discount that some of the people at RPG Codex have a very good definition of what an RPG is that somehow relates to choices and consequences.
But if they do, you are doing it (and all of them) a great disservice. Describing it so badly that the definition makes almost no sense and pulls under it's umbrella multitudes of games that are by no other definition RPGs. Then you surround it all with the most childish vitriolic insults you can imagine. As well as possibly or possibly not hails to Hitler and claims of personal brilliance.
I don't know or really care anything about RPGCodex, but you personally are a very sad, angry and I'm sorry to say probably stupid person. I'd feel bad for you if you weren't such an asshole.
They're very different now, but they were both born out of the same cloth so to speak. JRPGs started as Japanese versions of western RPGs and table top games. Final Fantasy I is almost literally a D&D video game.
They quickly diverged though and are now very different with only a few sort of cross overs. The SaGa games are a little more western in feel and the (non retro) Etrian Odyssey series have a very japanese aesthetic, but more traditionally western dungeon crawler game design.
It depends on what aspect of the games you're looking at or deem more important.
If you're just looking at mechanics, most are really not all that different.
If you're looking at setting, theme, etc., there are differences, but there are still games that break the mold.
Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are the games that really have spurred this debate in recent years. They seem to be very much WRPGs, but you do find japanese influences here and there.
So you have some that just say they are a JRPG because it's made in Japan. Then you have some folks that say it's a WRPG that's just made in Japan. The J and W not being indicative of where they were made, but thematic elements.
But then the problem arises from the fact that you're attributing thematic elements to a particular region. This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact that there are games that are exceptions, that don't fit the typical mold of either JRPG or WRPG.
And then you find thematic elements JRPGs are known for in other genres and elements WRPGs are known for in other genres.
This is why I think making a distinction is completely pointless. They're all RPGs. Add whatever modifiers to that you want. Grimdark shit, weeb shit, etc.
action adventure is an action game with exploration + puzzles + (optional) items that give you new abilities.
Metroid, Zelda, and Ecco the Dolphin are action adventure games. It always seemed a very recognizable and clear genre to me.
I guess it could be combined with other genre, you could see Metroid as action adventure-platformer, even Zombies ate my neighbour could be seen as an action adventure-top down shooter.
Nintendo used to say the Metroid Prime games were "first person adventures", not first person shooters.
RPGs are games in which you control one character or a party of characters, who have stats, and they level up these stats by defeating enemies in their adventure.
Ideally there should be randomness in the leveling up (you may have bad luck and your characters stats improve very little after leveling up), and in the success of the attacks (missed attacks, same attack does different ammounts of damage each time you use it, critical hits) but you should have a large degree of freedom and choice when deciding how to level up the characters, as in, classes, attacks they learn, etc.
An rpg doesnt have to be like a choose your own adventure book.
The problem is that you can fit in stuff that clearly is not meant to fit depending on how vague you want to be.
Most games have action of some sort, most games have some kind of adventure.
Most people would call Metroid a platformer though. Although now we have the term "metroidvania" which is used to pretty much describe any kind of non-linear platformer.
Plenty of games can fit in your definition of RPGs that aren't RPGs. Every single game, actions are dictated by stats, it's just that in some, the stats are not visible to the player.
And there are also RPGs that are quite deterministic and cut out any kind of random element. The Souls games, for one. There are no dice rolls or randomness at all. You either hit or you don't. The damage you do is the damage you do.
I think you could definitely draw a distinction between RPGs that depend more on a "physical acuity" skillset and those that depend on a "mental acuity" skillset.
Man you really are on the leftmost part of the bell curve aren't you?
Since it is impossible for you to understand what "choices and consequences" are , it was necessary to "unpack" it into simpler and simpler terms.
The quality of an RPG is defined by the amount of it's choices and consequences (=a m o u n t), which are not just splitting the rail roads of the story into multiple parts like the game where you cut your finger to find Shaun. Even the shittiest RPGs have more choices and consequences than other genres - like platformers, but since the retard (you) then tried to counter it "b-b-but if I put a goober right or left, that's a choice and consequence too, and you can do lots of stuff like this in Mario!!" (hence implying that it too has the appropriate amount of C&C), we come to the fact that the choices and consequences have to be made and acknowledged in universe, by the Dunegon Master (who is played by the computer), not by some arbitrary game mechanics or the peripherals of the device that is running the game.
To say it in, in the simplest possible way, a computer RPG is defined by THE SAME STANDARDS that a pen and paper roleplaying game is defined == choices and consequences. The more choices you can make that are acknowledged by the DM and rewarded with consequences (both positive and negative), the better the pnp RPG is.
Literally the same fucking thing counts for cRPGs, except a cRPG is limited by the fact that the DM is the computer itself, so it has less potential for acknowledging C&C than a human being due to it's artificial limitations.
Holy fucking shit.
Just one last time, I will try to explain it using fitting examples:
>Combat systems is the worst part of JRPGs
>Dark Souls and Monster Hunter are western RPGs which happened to be made in the East
>Fallout 3's combat as example of something good.
What the fuck?
Everything you say applies perfectly to roguelikes as well, and if you tried to tell any roguelike fan that they're in the same genre as RPGs they'd burn you at the stake.
Your definition is ridiculous or you're too stupid and overly concerned with cursing to communicate it in a meaningful way. Sorry...
>a good RPG implementation of choices and consequences (that also covers the "but it's not about splitting the rail road" part):
In Planescape: Torment, if you mindlessly kill enough innocents, not only can you face potentially an alternative and technically satisfactory ending to your journey, you also unlock a special weapon in the first half of the game which is pretty much one of the best weapons in the game already, one that is also fittingly meant to be used by the character class that has the easiest time killing countless innocents.
>the simplest example of what RPGs are absolutely not about
"In Oblivion, my character class is a Paladin, so I will only do paladin-like things! Herp derp!!" To quote one of the wisest posters on RPGCodex "I don't give a slightest fuck about make-believe "i-am-a-paladin-so-i-will-only-do-paladinlike-things" bullshit, because there is only my computer and me, and neither of us cares." => the computer doesn't care about your 'paladin-like' behaviour, so when you're doing that, you're not actually roleplaying. At all. At best it could be called LARPing.
Monster Hunter is in no way an RPG. It's a loot collecting boss hunting action game. The only things it has in common with typical RPGs is that you have swords and clubs and can collect equipment.
But then some people try to claim Diablo is an RPG. Ultimately this guy is right >>2778947 genre names are largely worthless. They're handy for broadly categorizing things, but not much beyond that. Spending time truing to tightly define them is almost always a futile effort.
I am extremely doubtful that it applies to roguelikes in general, but if a roguelike fits those standards, well then tough shit, it is an RPG. Which, by the way, the normies themselves say that roguelikes are - "a subgenre of RPGs".
So I couldn't care less about the autistic roguelike fans you claim to know/represent who would get offended by calling that genre a RPG.
Extra Credits like to appear knowledgeable, but they mostly just have surface level shit.
The combat can seem like the worst part of JRPGs if all you know is Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest.
Even then, I feel like some folks take Final Fantasy's overall contributions for granted. The job system and the ATB system were some of the best things to happen in JRPGs.
And really the bigger problem is not the lack of good combat mechanics, but rather poor enemy design. You have potential for a lot of depth and strategy, even in something as old as FF1, but the problem is that enemies are just too easily beaten.
Some games, it almost feels like enemies were made with very little knowledge of the battle system.
>the computer doesn't care about your 'paladin-like' behaviour, so when you're doing that, you're not actually roleplaying.
This is actually related to why I like FFII so much. You don't make a mage by selecting "mage" from a menu. You make a mage by having your character act like a mage, and the more they do that the better they get at magic.
Also, not an RPG. But the roguelike Powder has a brilliant deity system whereby all the gods are watching everything they do and they like and dislike certain actions. Casting spells, attacking or not attacking helpless monsters, making noise, eating certain things etc etc. It also leads to a game where to be a good cleric, you really have to act like a good cleric. Quite interesting.
I seriously can't tell if you mean what you're saying or just spewing random nonsense. Rougelikes and RPGs were born from the same roots as computer versions of table top games. But they've diverged significantly such that they're distinctly different genres that no normal person would confuse.
To lump them in with RPGs would be pointless. They have different genre names because they're fundamentally very different. That they involve choices that lead to consequences is obvious. They're games.
>that no normal person would confuse.
Again, let me re-iterate - the normie encyclopaedia itself says that roguelikes are a sub-genre of RPGs. Just because it says that doesn't make it true, of course, but it shows that the majority of people seems to be content with calling rogue-like a sub-genre of RPGs.
You're the one who's spewing random nonsense here, family senpai.
They're obviously related genres, but that's like calling beat 'em ups a sub genre of fighters. One could probably make that argument, but it would be pointless. The reason for genre names is to give a general idea of what a game is like. Roguelikes and RPGs developed out of the same roots but are very, very different games. So labeling them both as RPGs isn't just pointless, it's deliberately confusing.
Which is why no one, anywhere calls them Rogue-RPGs or roguelikerpgs or anything like that. They call them roguelikes because it's the word that denotes that specific type of game.
Serious question, are you over the age of 20? Because this really feels like I'm trying to have a conversation with a 15 year old.
What kills jRPG's for me mostly: really long and non-interactive custcenes and stupidly high random encounter rates.
The first means I don't interact with a game for a long time and it makes a clear line between game time and "let's watch a shitty movie" time.
The seconds means I get to repeat the same motions over and over again just to get somewhere. I like exploring the game environment and making me go through half a dozen random encounters just to see what's down that corridor or enjoy a view (mostly in 3D games tho) is extremely unsatisfying.
Ultimately, it's all just unnecessary padding.
And the latter seems to tie into this
>And really the bigger problem is not the lack of good combat mechanics, but rather poor enemy design. You have potential for a lot of depth and strategy, even in something as old as FF1, but the problem is that enemies are just too easily beaten.
Usually there's some kind of weakness or critical hit system. Usually your enemies are just single targets (as in you target it or don't, there's no location damage). Usually it's very easy to break that system after you played a bit and your game sessions ends up looking at this
>random encounter triggers -> intro animation -> hopefully you attack first -> select critical strike -> select critical strike -> select critical strike -> wait for animations to finish -> if you're unlucky the enemy isn't dead -> wait for each separate enemy animation to finish -> repeat your turn -> if enemy dead then wait for outro animation and the loot/xp screen
walk around for a couple of minutes and repeat because another random battle triggered
Space out the battles, make enemies more unique, give enemies more tools, etc. Of course this requires significantly more dev time, it's much easier to make the enemy AI always just go for the jugular and then tell it to pick a weaker attack at easier difficulties or to make randomized encounter triggers instead of hand placing them on the map.
For me Metroidvania is just a "kind" term for Metroid clone. Like calling Crusader of Centry "Zeltry" instead of just Zelda clone.
Most games have some sort of action or adventure, but most would be be very recognizable first as action platformers, or beat em ups, or run and gun games, or first person shooters, before being seen as action adventure games.
I never played the souls games, but to me you arent role playing if you control your character directly, completely and perfectly, there should always be some degree of randomness representing the throwing the dice of role playing games.
Basically it's "use whatever your best attack is". Which unfortunately a lot of games boil down to.
>I never played the souls games, but to me you arent role playing if you control your character directly, completely and perfectly, there should always be some degree of randomness representing the throwing the dice of role playing games.
And this shows that there are people that just want and expect different things from RPGs.
For me, there's really no reason why video games should adhere to dice rolls. Pen and paper RPGs do so because that's pretty much the only way of doing things. I really don't think folks meant for the dice to be some inherent special aspect of RPGs. It's just a tool.
I'm not saying dice rolls are outdated or anything, I'm just saying video games are capable of doing something that can't be done in a pnp RPG, so I think it makes sense that some folks would really like that.
That's what I like about them. Time feels slow once you get into the rhythm of one and after what feels like a thousand battles you look at the clock and barely an hour has passed. It's nice and breaks you away from reality.
~~~DRAGO FIREHEART~~~ is attempting to show us what a erudite game sage and utter pussy-slayer he is by acting like a complete knob to virtually everyone in the thread. He's also quite keen that everyone should know he belongs to some gay-ass forum filled with people who probably look and sound like Mort Goldman from Family Guy.
That about bring you up to speed? ;)
He's a false flagger that lurks around here and shits up threads, anons on /vr/ are either senile so they don't remember him or downright retarded so they actually respond to him or worse, they're dumb senile idiots who get all buttflustered about a guy who's evidently baiting and pick his bait every time.
Now stop replying to this cancerous thread.
>Long time RPGCodex member here. Never heard of this Drago guy,
Bullshit. There's no way you don't know him if you're a "long time RPGCodex member".
I'm guessing you're one of the 'long time' members who registered after September 2014.
I'd barely heard of RPGCodex before this thread. I know the name but have never been there. It was pretty funny though that the guy claiming to be from there and describing it as the premiere place of erudite discussion of RPGs on the internet would both act like a complete dipshit and put forth the most ridiculous definition of RPGs ever.
It was just too fun not to keep shutting him down and see what idiotic thing he'd say next. I'd feel bad for letting the thread go to shit, but it was bait from OP so whatever.
Question for >>2780327 though, are these real pulls from the forum? >>2779069 I don't discount that I'm sure there are some cool people there who get into good conversations, but the second part is pretty cringe worthy.
Nope, all the things they said are lies. RPGCodex is a very friendly and welcoming place. Our number one priority is diversity in our userbase and posts, so lately we've been searching for more PoC to register on our forums. Our administration consists of 1 male, 1 female, 2 transwomen and a Jewish person to reflect our desires. All posts made by male posters have to be reviewed by the administration before they're approved in order to protect our safe spaces.
I'm really sorry for the misrepresentation of RPGCodex that you got in this thread!
Ohh and I'll probably get scolded for asking instead of googling, but is one of the transwomen formerly Shidoshi of Gamefan, now Mollipen? I know she transitioned recently and is big into JRPGs, being one of the head translators of Suiko 2
It's not so much an internet thing. I was a huge fan of gamefan when it was around and three of the editors do a podcast now which I enjoy. So it seemed like a fair guess.
Ironically I tried playing Suikoden 2 after hearing it was largely translated by two of them, and found it's translation really terrible to the point I couldn't bring myself to keep playing.
The first one didn't impress me much which is why I put 2 off for so long. If everything else was great I may have stuck with it, but it wasn't so I didn't. I'm super picky about RPGs by this point though, having played so many over the years it now takes one doing something really great or special to keep my interest long enough.
>he had to grind to get through FF6 and PS4.
Jesus H Christ son, this isn't how you come out to people as a pleb. At least mention a game where some grinding is required, like Dragon Warrior 1.
You've never heard of Moot? He was the founder of ebaum's world before it went through the name change and became reddit. How does anyone on the internet for more than 5 minutes not fucking know this?
You see that the Souls games arent much of an rpg, when many of its fans say they are/were former Zelda fans, and that Souls games are "Zelda for adults".
Zelda was never an rpg, except perhaps 2 on NES.
Souls games are pretty much action games.
Go show me your zero death run of a SMT game, anon. I'm sure it'll be easy for you, you don't even need to read a strategy guide, promise :^)
Stop acting like you know what you're fucking talking about because you played Pokemon and Paper Mario, kid.
It's easy to spot people who didn't grow up during the pre-internet era. Cheat codes certainly weren't readily available games for because they're not included in the original packaging of the games when you bought them. Unless you purchased strategy guides, called tip hotlines, or had friends who knew these cheats, there's no way of knowing these built-in cheats or that these games had cheats to begin with.
Most RPGs, at least the ones I've played, I finished them within 30 to 40 hours, which is pretty much the average. In every one of them, I always spend some time grinding in every new area before proceeding forward. It's impossible to advance without grinding at least a little in each area. The only reasons I would spend more time than I normally do to finish a RPG were because I didn't have access to many games and/or I enjoyed that particular game.
What are your definitions of grinding and playing RPGs "correctly"? Do you read GameFaqs or whatever's your source for game info before playing RPGs? Do you follow "formulas" for character creation and combat? I don't see how playing a RPG efficiently using meta knowledge gleaned from external sources (rather through your own efforts) makes you a better player than a "pleb" who plays a game using default strategies.
>Unless you purchased strategy guides, called tip hotlines, or had friends who knew these cheats, there's no way of knowing these built-in cheats or that these games had cheats to begin with.
Good job answering your own question.
>I always spend some time grinding in every new area before proceeding forward. It's impossible to advance without grinding at least a little in each area.
You mean you actively walk around for the sole purpose of triggering random encounters when you could get everything you need just by exploring a dungeon and going where you need to go? That's your own problem, you simply need to not run away from battles to be up to the challenge, if you can't progress with the tools you have a the moment then you're either playing Wizardry or you're playing it wrong.
>What are your definitions of grinding and playing RPGs "correctly"?
Grinding is fighting for the sake of getting exp. money or whatever you need, grinding is basically fighting battles that are not triggered by any other purpose than naturally exploring or completing a questline, there's some extremely obnoxious people that would argue that doing sidequests is grinding too but I'm not one of those and I think it's pointless bullshit.
Playing a game correctly is when you don't need to grind to complete the game, simple as that.
>Do you read GameFaqs or whatever's your source for game info before playing RPGs?
That would defeat the purpose of playing a game in the first place, like, watching a let's play of Monkey Island or Sonic before playing the game.
>Do you follow "formulas" for character creation and combat?
Not really, unless a game strictly adheres to those, I rather prefer to experiment and do things my way.
> I don't see how playing a RPG efficiently using meta knowledge gleaned from external sources
That's what you fail to understand, playing a RPG effectively is exactly NOT using external sources, it's figuring out things on your own.
>You mean you actively walk around for the sole purpose of triggering random encounters when you could get everything you need just by exploring a dungeon and going where you need to go? That's your own problem, you simply need to not run away from battles to be up to the challenge, if you can't progress with the tools you have a the moment then you're either playing Wizardry or you're playing it wrong.
>I played one fucking RPG in my entire life so I think I'm a pro on the subject.
Shut the fuck up you stupid elitist prick. I'm not the anon you replied to but, for fuck's sake, there's tons of RPG's where some amount of grinding is expected.
>>I played one fucking RPG in my entire life so I think I'm a pro on the subject.
I played much more RPGs than you ever will son, that's precisely why I'm saying that grinding is unneeded and the first sign of scrubs.
Well, I mean... there's the fact that it's intended for ages 3 and up...
that is about offensive content I think.
There are a shitload of colourful games with no offensive or mature content at all that are much harder than the average RPG, like the first Rayman or PLOK!
Not that Paper Mario is hard btw.
what exactly its an action rpg?
i see people comparing games like terranigma and fucking mario rpg, what the heck.
and more importantly, why is zelda always out of this? its because the shitty story?
>FF13 is one of the hardest FF games out there
"Action RPG" is a term that should never have been coined. Basically it's a game that has RPG elements like EXP, Leveling Up, equipping different weapons, etc, but is not a Turn based, Menu based, combat system.
Super Mario RPG, Paper Mario, etc is basically a "Mario Party Combat" RPG, if you ask me.
Nah, it's obvious you haven't played that many for you to say no RPG ever requires grinding. Either that or you have a very flexible definition of grinding.
>Can't beat the boss?
>Go "explore" some more or "farm money" to buy more items and gear or "go look for secret areas"
imagine if this guy plays Wizadry IV
FF 13 ONE OF THE HARDEST GAMESSS HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhaahsnaxjc
Mine haven't either. I didn't like JRPGs back when they started becoming a thing even on the NES (DQ and FF).
Ultima, Wizardry, Gold Box games, etc were VASTLY superior. JRPGs are oversimplistic bullshit.
Zelda (except 2 on NES) doesnt have a single rpg element, it is an action adventure game like Ecco the Dolphin or Metroid.
Game with towns and npcs that give you tips doesnt mean rpg.
i love Chrono Trigger and Ultima IV , both are really GREAT games.
I LOVE JRPGS AND CRPGS
You're the one who's having problem with bosses, not me.
And again, I still played more RPGs than you, you just suck at those.
And you know why this is true? Because you cling to exploring being grinding.
RPGs where made for exploration, that exploration was the first factor that prevented grinding because you obviously wanted to know whether there were secrets or cool places to see in Dragon Warrior, you needed to explore the maps in Wizardry to find stairs or events that would allow you to get keys or go further down in the dungeons, and because of that you would fight random encounters which would naturally make you gain levels, money or loot.
The fact that you disregard exploring is exactly the pitiful excuse of those who follow guides because they don't have the patience to explore and find things on their own, so they have everything pointed out to them, do not play the game as it's supposed to be played and then whine about needing to grind, or worse, you actually run away from random encounters while exploring.
And you know what's even worse? There are even games that downright block grinding, like Shadow Tower, Front Mission 2 or Valkyrie Profile, because the amount of enemies and loot is finite, so you can't grind, and if you do have trouble with those that's entirely your own fault for not knowing how to play the game.
There are games with fixed stats like Romancing SaGa 2 or 3 that makes the enemies tougher the more fights you get in or simply by having high HPs, so the only thing you can grind is weapon proficiencies(which do not grow nearly as fast as your Battle Rank or HP) and money, which is next ot worthless in SaGa because the loot you find by exploring is way better than 90% of the stuff you can buy.
There are games like Dark Law where you can lose stats permanently and enemies not only gets tougher by completing more quests, but disappear once you get to a certain level so you can only fight enemies that are much stronger than you.
Of course JRPGS can be made for computer, or be made with a more western influence. But the JRPG is a distinctly different genre from the W/CRPG. They came out of the same roots and are still related, but not the same thing.
I think Final Fantasy IV was the birth of what we now call JRPGs. In the start Japanese RPGs were essentially copies of western style RPGs and tabletop games. Final Fantasy in particular is heavily based on Dungeons and Dragons P&P rules and combat mechanics. A lot of it's monsters and their likenesses are even taken straight from the Monster Manual.
FF's 2 and 3 continued a similar tradition of a game based around party building and world exploration. The focus was on mechanics and character leveling strategy. They do well enough, but not amazingly.
Then Final Fantasy IV comes along. It drops all the need for strategy or planning in party building. The game is pre-optimized to give you the right classes and abilities you will need to make it through the game.
Instead of combat and leveling strategy, the focus is instead on the story and characters. It was advertised like shown here as "the RPG for everyone." It's still part of the RPG genre and in the Final Fantasy line of games. But it's also fundamentally different. It's a story centric game rather than a stat building one. A blend between a western style RPG game and a visual novel, which is a distinctly Japanese genre.
Then the important part to all this was that Final Fantasy IV was an instant mega hit. One of the best reviewed games of all time and every other JRPG since took notes from it.
>It drops all the need for strategy or planning in party building. The game is pre-optimized to give you the right classes and abilities you will need to make it through the game.
>every other JRPG since took notes from it.
>A blend between a western style RPG game and a visual novel which is a distinctly Japanese genre.
It's still worth mentioning though that there are JRPGs that are not like that, and do put an importance on stat building and battle tactics.
Wizardry was quite popular in Japan, and it spawned a whole bunch of other stuff. The SMT series, for one. They may be comparatively fewer games like this, but I think there's enough where you can't just have blanket statements like "all JRPGs focus on story and have rudimentary gameplay".
FFIV definitely set a precedent, but I feel like among most FF games, it's one that people don't go back to often because there's very little variety and the story is pretty generic.
Plenty of JRPGs took notes from it, but they definitely improved upon it. There are plenty of "story focused" JRPGs that give you at least some level of customization and require some kind of strategy during battles.
I think some games really tried to have both. What WRPGs benefit from is that a lot of developers are happy to use DnD rulesets, which has the benefit of years and years of refinements. Whereas I think Japanese developers would feel that using some battle system that's already there is not very original.
crpgs and jrpgs, they are two completely different genres.
''c''rpg and ''j''rpg , they are only the names of his origin.
for example , Undertale not is a japanese game and is a jrpg like mother
Now, you're back backpedaling. You claimed that no RPG ever requires grinding, then you said you still played more RPGs than me when I mentioned RPGs that require grinding do exist. You basically proved my point by providing examples of RPGs where grinding is prevented or discouraged. These games are actually designed to be challenging unlike games that allow grinding like Mother, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, FF6, DQ, Langrisser, etc. Just because you deliberately make them difficult by going through speedruns and playing with bad gear doesn't elevate them above casual games. What's the point of experimenting (not that there's much to experiment with) when you discover the fastest and most efficient way to power up in these games is to grind?
I never said that I opposed exploration. I actually like it very much myself. You're making a strawman. I was just making an argument that exploration is functionally the same as grinding. As much as I like exploring though, I realized that in many JRPGs, exploration is mostly pointless. There's a lot of large areas and mazes, but most lead to dead ends, empty areas, or treasure chests filled with crap or items of little use. Powerful items generally don't appear until later in the games. But, by that time you're already powerful, making those items redundant for your purposes. Take FF6, for example, towards the end, you get to explore a lot of areas for items, but so what, you can just go to Kefta's tower and kill him by having everyone cast Ultima. Unlike you, I don't need to do mental gymnastics and lie to myself that JRPGs are meant for exploration. The fact is the majority of JRPGs are highly linear and have minimal exploration as evident by the fact of empty, pointless areas being the norm. Why do you think you're a better player than "scrubs" when in the end you still have to reach minimal level/stat requirements before being able to progress to new areas? What the hell is "gaining levels naturally"?
>What's the point of experimenting (not that there's much to experiment with) when you discover the fastest and most efficient way to power up in these games is to grind?
To not being a drooling grinding retard who uses a loophole left for 6 year old kids?
>when you discover the fastest and most efficient way to power up in these games is to grind?
>The most efficient way to power up is literally fighting for hours when you could simply get as strong as needed by playing the game normally.
>I was just making an argument that exploration is functionally the same as grinding.
Jesus christ, stop embarassing yourself.
To be fair, in a properly balanced game, there really shouldn't be a strategy that can be used to just make the game piss easy.
Particularly in RPGs where you have to maintain your HP, MP, and anything else, people are going to be looking for the most cost-effective way to deal with each problem.
And then you add that most random battles in RPGs are pretty uneventful, so of course people are going to want to be done with it as quick as possible. Who wants to spend multiple turns dealing with some shit goblins or whatever?
Ideally, you should HAVE to use good strategy in order to avoid death. This is why some RPGs are sometimes incorrectly called difficult, because the game actually expects you to formulate strategies beyond "spam your best attack".
How is it even a loop hole when it's a main feature of the majority of these games? Is anything that doesn't make the game artificially difficult for you a loop hole? Most JRPGs were made for kids, and you expect a deep game play style? You're just applying personalized standards for playing these games that you made up completely in your heads due your rabid fanboyism.
I don't know how I'm embarrassing myself when I'm merely pointing out a workable strategy. The fact that gamers like you want to take the "high road" by insisting that these games could only be played "properly" in your unique, personalized way while scoffing at other viable play styles leads me to believe the main issue with you guys isn't about the game play at all, but about vigorously defending the genre against the casual stigma at all costs because you guys hold these games in high esteem. Fact is JRPGs don't hold a candle in terms of difficulty against other genres like space shooters. But you refuse to acknowledge this fact and imply that JRPGs are no easier that other genres.
RPGCodex was created in 2007. I haven't peruse its contents in detail, but regardless of whatever opinions that are held by people there, it's illogical to apply their standards and opinions retroactively to gamers who played retro rpgs at the time they came out, which is prior to the creation of the site. Is this the site where you got brainwashed on the "proper" way in which to play RPGs?
FFV which was easier than III and then was less popular again than IV. Cementing the direction the series would take going forward.
Fallout is an exception, visual novels are largely a Japanese genre. JRPGs really a blend of C/WRPGs and visual novels.
Certainly there are more and less extreme examples, but I think it's the overall trend that's important.
But that it had an easy version is a good point. It was the game made to be beatable by anyone. Even the "hard" version takes all the strategy and guesswork from the previous games out. It makes sure at every point you always have the right party with the right spells and gear to beat what the game has in store for you. The only thing the player can possibly mess up is not having leveled enough if they're genuinely bad at it.
I don't think the overall trend is styled after FFIV. You are right, FFIV takes a lot of challenge away from the player by making it so you have no choice in who your party is.
Not every JRPG is like that. In fact, I think that's probably the only JRPG I've played where your party is chosen for you and there is no character customization. Most will either let you have customization, the ability to choose from a variety of characters, or both.
Just look at how quickly the problem was fixed. The very next game saw the return of the job system, and ever since FFIV, there's never been a FF that has been quite so rigid.
This is why I think it's so hard to go back to IV, as it offers little to no replay value. Although III is hard to go back to as well, since V massively improved the job system.
I think IV is where there was a tipping point though, between games about leveling and party building and ones more about story. While more mechanical JRPGs did get made, almost all of the ones made after FFIV are easier than the ones before.
There are exceptions of course and certain JRPG series that feel more western. Pokemon ironically has always had a more western feel and Etrian Odyssey definitely does.
Also we may find it hard to go back to IV, but it's still seen as a beloved classic in Japan.
>What's the point of experimenting (not that there's much to experiment with) when you discover the fastest and most efficient way to power up in these games is to grind?
Not the guy you're talking to, but in my opinion it's because the fastest way through isn't necessarily the most fun.
The fastest way through FFI is all fighters, but it's also the most boring. The fastest way through FFII is to hit your own party members for an hour and then steamroll the game. But doing that completely ruins it. The fun of a game isn't necessarily just beating it in the fastest time possible, it can be in simply enjoying and playing with the systems it has.
>almost all of the ones made after FFIV are easier than the ones before.
There are more challenging JRPGs that came out after just from the fact that there are significantly more JRPGs that existed after.
I'm really curious what JRPGs you've played, because most of the older ones (let's say pre-FFIV) I've played were completely brain dead.
Also, there are more ways of having challenging gameplay than just party building and stat management.
>when I'm merely pointing out a workable strategy.
What's workable about a strategy that requires you to play more hours of gameplay than an actually intelligent one because you're too dumb to figure out which tools you need to use?
> but about vigorously defending the genre against the casual stigma at all costs because you guys hold these games in high esteem
No you dumb motherfucker, it's people like you that insist on saying that the genre is for casual while making points only a braindead retard would do.
> Fact is JRPGs don't hold a candle in terms of difficulty against other genres like space shooters.
Oh please, here come the SHMUPfag, you've already proven to have the mental elasticity of a peanut since for you getting to the bathroom properly is again, banging your head on the door for hours since it breaks instead of searching for the key.
Your precious games of memorization are literally based on what the vast majority of games except puzzle games is, memorizing stages, don't act like there's some deep strategy about games that were designed to make you waste as much quarters as possible because of deliberate bullshit, you wanna stroke your ego about the difficulty of your genre? Be my guest, you're only making yourself look like a complete asshole.
But since you've begging so hard for a complete smackdown I guess I'll reply seriously to your previous post this time to make sure you'll understand how bloody retarded, pretentious and ignorant you are.
>You claimed that no RPG ever requires grinding, then you said you still played more RPGs than me when I mentioned RPGs that require grinding do exist.
Mentioning games where grinding isn't required doesn't even invalidate my previous point by the virtue of them existing, if anything it even reinforces it since you are the one who said that RPGs are all about grinding and "reading a guide will never let you get a game over", but when poeple mention that there's lots of game where grinding isn't even materially possible it's backpedaling. Ok then, Why don't we talk about all those garbage shmups like Raptor that don't require any effort at all because of how fucking easy they are? Or are you going to tell me that "real players" play for the score or something? Because playing for the score in shmups can be very well compared to making a speedrun in a RPG.
>These games are actually designed to be challenging unlike games that allow grinding like Mother, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, FF6, DQ, Langrisser
So what? Are you going to tell me that all SHMUPs or action games are designed to be challenging? Are you denying that the vast majority of games in EVERY GENRE isn't designed to appeal to the masses and so very easy to play and get into? Like, Crash Bandicoot 3, Magical Pop'n or Bonk are really made for elitist hardcore action players such as yourself, right?
> Just because you deliberately make them difficult by going through speedruns and playing with bad gear doesn't elevate them above casual games.
Speedruns are the exactly complete opposite of that you motherfucking idiot, how do you think anyone's going to speedrun a game of maths by using additions instead of multiplications? How the fuck are you even getting that idea? Did you even watch any RPG speedrun? They all revolve about getting the BEST possible functional gear available as fast as possible.
>I was just making an argument that exploration is functionally the same as grinding.
Oh, right, so let me ask you, why make exploration at all when you can just make a long corridor with random encounters along the way of your checkpoints like any other sidescroller? It's not like one of the staples of RPGs is the possibility of being rewarded by exploring, it can't possibly be that entire RPGs subgenres like roguelikes are based around that?
I mean, why the fuck would they even put optional dungeons or secrets that allow you to get good stuff quickly and easily when you can just grind for 10 hours to get the same results, amirite?
>I realized that in many JRPGs, exploration is mostly pointless. There's a lot of large areas and mazes, but most lead to dead ends, empty areas, or treasure chests filled with crap or items of little use.
>You know, I realized that in many SHMUPs, going for the score is mostly pointless, there's alot of enemies placements that will get you shot down 90% of the times or give you a bad placement that will most likely screw you over for something that isn't even required to finish the game.
Are you dumb, motherfucker? Do you know what a labyrinth is made for? Do you complain about Sexy Parodius having dead ends in the tunnels during the second stage in the public baths too? You're whining about the game's not giving you what you want on a silver plate because you literally find exploration to be not fun, exploring doesn't mean having loot everywhere you bumbling autistic fuck, especially in dungeons.
>Powerful items generally don't appear until later in the games. But, by that time you're already powerful, making those items redundant for your purposes.
Wait, you're telling me that you should have access to endgame stuff right off the bat(which you can anyway, see SaGa Frontier), in a genre that's basically maths disguised by cool pixels? Those things are "redundant" for two simple motives:
You grind like a retard for hours so by the time you get those of course they're next to useless, too bad you could have spent those 10 hours of grinding doing something else with your life and when you did get those things they should actually had more than a purpose since they're literally those 10 extra hours you just wasted instead of using your brain.
Next point is exactly a counterpoint to this:
>Take FF6, for example, towards the end, you get to explore a lot of areas for items, but so what, you can just go to Kefta's tower and kill him by having everyone cast Ultima.
Why should I grind Ultima when I can just get a Genji Glove, Offering, some Fixed dice or another good weapon from a certain few chests and just use those abilities that are embedded on items and don't require any battle to develop?
Are you telling me your way is the only way to beat Kefka easily? Is it smarter for you to grind for Ultima when you can simply explore a few dungeons and get items that grant you abilities right off the bat? Oh right, you're already too powerful for those.
>Unlike you, I don't need to do mental gymnastics and lie to myself that JRPGs are meant for exploration.
What mental gymnastic? Denying that games that were born out of desire for adventure and exploration is mental gymnastic, denying that games whose staple and archetype is going through dark, moist dungeons to fight monsters and getting loot is mental gymnastic, denying that games who struggled to create huge worlds for you to explore is mental gymnastic.
Why bother making Daggerfall when you can just make a gauntlet of battles followed by an intermission screen?
Why bother making huge dungeons in Diablo with a lot of dead ends and traps?
Why bother making large worlds in today's MMOs at all? I mean, who wants that right? It's not like RPGs were created with exploration in mind, all of these surely prove the contrary.
>The fact is the majority of JRPGs are highly linear and have minimal exploration as evident by the fact of empty, pointless areas being the norm.
The majority of sidescrollers is press right to win, the majority means nothing because it's made to make money and appeal to the biggest audience possible, and no, don't tell me SHMUPs were magically different because they're not, there's lots of garbage titles there too like in every genre with Cho Aniki being possibly the most famous one, the only difference is that it's a genre that only a handful of autists like yourself liked to the death and so they made less games to begin with because no sane person wanted to spend hours memorizing paths and playing for the score to brag about it on the internet 20 years later. And let's not forget about cancer like Tohou.
Not to mention, the vast maority of earth's surface is pointless y'know, empty, boring areas, who would have thunk that? Who can possibly want to see what's behind that forest? Fucking people and their curiosity I swear, why can't they all play boring corridors with the same formations of enemies for hours, why are people risking their lives IRL climbing the Everest when there's just snow and rocks?
>Why do you think you're a better player than "scrubs" when in the end you still have to reach minimal level/stat requirements before being able to progress to new areas?
For the same reason you assholes brag about scores or your games being better than others, finding a new minimal limit or completion time is the hard mode of that kind of games and the complete opposite of your optimal way which require banging your head on you controller for hours I could have spent playing another game. You can't even understand the basic flow of a genre so simple to get, you have troubles understanding that proper leveling is simply playing the games like they're supposed to be played, an adventure with a world to explore.
But again, RPGs are for casuals amirite?
Video games are pointless.
You're just pressing plastic buttons and then some electrical impulses happen in a little plastic box.
All is for nothing. All is void. Surrender yourself to the void.
>There are more challenging JRPGs that came out after just from the fact that there are significantly more JRPGs that existed after.
Well obviously. And of course there are games like the SaGas that are more complex and difficult. But many JPRGs follow the IV mold of basically handing you a group of pre-made characters that the player doesn't have to spent time optimizing if they don't want to.
There is difficulty in JRPGs, but it's rarely the kind of planning that WRPGs are more heavily based on.
As for JRPGs, I've played many. All FFs to IX, DQ 1-4, 8,9. SaGa1-3, Rom SaGa 2, PS I-IV, the Lunars, a host of one offs.
>Also, there are more ways of having challenging gameplay than just party building and stat management.
No disagreement there at all.
They don't. Which is why the whole genre of action RPGs exists. Traditionally they are turn based because the genre evolved out of pencil and paper tabletop roleplaying games where people take turns in combat. Both turn and action based games can be complex in their own ways.
tell me about any interaction with electronics that is not about is not about choices and consequences
... or, if a monkey randomly hiting a keyboar...shakespeare
in other words, you can imagine what that anon implied with his definition. Sequentially pressing F, U, C, K, Y, O, then U has a consequence of producing a rude response, but you can use your brain to know that its not what he meant.
My main argument was that grinding is the standard strategy for playing JRPGs, so I'm not going to debate your other points because it will digress into a discussion of personal values and philosophy.
Grinding IS the de facto strategy for JRPGs, excluding the very small percentage of those that actually require some thought and planning in playing them. This is the official position, and it takes precedence over the sanctimonious opinions of some deluded gamer on the internet. In picture I've posted is the evidence where grinding is strongly recommended in the game manuals. If you don't grind then you're not playing the game correctly.
>My main argument was that grinding is the standard strategy for playing JRPGs, so I'm not going to debate your other points because it will digress into a discussion of personal values and philosophy.
So you're basically backing down like the little bitch you are because you can't find any good personal rebuttal, good.
>Grinding IS the de facto strategy for JRPGs
Decided by who?
> This is the official position
I didn't know there was an official organization that decided what's the best way of playing a game.
>and it takes precedence over the sanctimonious opinions of some deluded gamer on the internet.
Sure, if only you could muster anything that could prove what's "official", too bad you can't, nobody can.
>. In picture I've posted is the evidence where grinding is strongly recommended in the game manuals. If you don't grind then you're not playing the game correctly.
You're gonna tell me games' manuals are the official and only right way to play a game?
The same manuals who often include incorrect informaton and highly questionable strategies?
The same manuals who are often completely rewritten by localizers, see Working Designs?
The same manuals who are the epithome of mediocrity and incompleteness?
Have you actually took the time to compare what's written in a game's manual and the actual guides and see how much stuff is conveniently omitted that would actually make the game easier?
Just to take one of your examples, sure, you could grind for stats in FFL, or you cannot if you make a party of monsters anyway so half of that "official way of playing JRPG" is already false, but why should I grind for levels when I can just buy me some Giant equipment which makes me almost completely invincible until a long way into the game?