New CRT-thread, other one hit bump limit.
How does my screen look? Did I do good?
Topic got deleted which is fair, it may have come off more baiting than I'd intended. This is a good place to ask you guys though.
What do you think about the way Nintendo showed what they thought their games were ideally supposed to look like. With clearly defined pixels as opposed to a moire pattern caused by CRT.
Considering this is what the game can look like now, do CRT fans truly prefer the fuzzy moire images that those screens produce? Nostalgia aside, do you honestly think it looks better?
Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned.
As far as the moire pattern goes, no. That element was probably not intended as it's an inconsistent function of a particular display's dot pitch. Scanlines and bloom on the other hand were certainly elements of the original design. It makes little difference when it comes to the cartoonish art of NES classics but one need only glance at a comparison of quasi-realistic sprites for fighting games to see that without scanlines you get way too-bright colors with washed out details.
I'm sorry your eyes are too sensitive for the amazing contrast and intensity of CRTs but it's like saying "I think French food is too rich". You palette is simply underdeveloped.
Furthermore, your basic presumption that the developers of Famicom games had fuck all to do with the US NES box art is clearly flawed. First wave NES box art, like many many other aesthetic choices in the West was an active rejection of Atari culture.
Sorry for "shitting up your thread" with garbage like factual refutations.
Okay you got me guys. You seem to be more knowledgeable than I thought. Those are pics of my of my Mega Drive on my LCD TV via RGB.
To be honest pics can't do justice on how good the pic looks in real life, really.
>Clearly an unfiltered 16:9 LCD
It's in 4:3 mode though>>2773437
Pic related, dude. I think it looks bitchin, even better live.
>You palette is simply underdeveloped.
Actually the opposite is true, my vision is above average which is what causes the problem.
But to be clear, you prefer the look of the image on the left here >>2773437 than the one here >>2773440 ? That's the basis of what I'm getting at. To me that second image is really the game looking the best it possibly can. But do you really think the CRT patterning and scan lines add to it aesthetically?
And you weren't shitting up my thread, I thought we were just starting to get into it. A janitor disagreed though which isn't surprising. It's all good though.
I assume it's basis is elitism, but I'm hoping by digging into it more I can get to the heart of it. I find it hard to imagine people like those screens for reasons other than nostalgia, scanlines and bloom look hideous to me, but I am genuinely curious if there are people out there who actually like them and to figure out why.
Once again, you're making a spurious comparison. Your "ideal" is a screen capture, not a high resolution macro comparison of the image being displayed on comparable quality displays. I COULD take some actual comparison photos of that exact frame on both my PVM and LCD but even if I had faith this troll /crt/ thread were going to remain up, it still would not fully convey the weakness of LCD in motion - even if I properly upscaled to eliminate the heinous interlacing.
Because you're either under 25 and grew up on emulators and that's how you think they're "supposed" to look, or you've got an autistic obsession with "image purity" and RGB and other such nonsense. Just all around pretty gay to care about this.
>I COULD take some actual comparison photos
But even then they'd be photos and that would defeat the purpose. I think we can both assume we've both seen games running on CRTs and running on modern screens, even laptops.
My "ideal" is the way the game looks when emulated and displayed on a good HD screen where each and every pixel is clearly defined. Assuming you're reading this thread on a decent screen, >>2773440 is a pretty good representation of what I think the game looks like at it's absolute best.
But in your opinion, the way it comes out looking displayed on a CRT is the ideal and "best" look for the game. Is that all correct?
That's a nice try, but I'm pushing 40 and grew up on CRTs. I just think they're ugly. I have always felt that CRTs held back what games could look like.
That you lept to the word faggot instead of saying something meaningful is a much bigger indicator of immaturity than simply not liking CRT screens.
Irony. Considering I moved to emulation years ago and have zero impact on the antique electronics market you're invested in, and not buying them all up and raising the price you should be thanking me,
Not him but a proper RGB setup blows LCD out of the water. The images you have been posting are blurry as all hell and i am convinced you have no idea what you are talking about.
You seem like a cool guy though. Youre just ignorant is all.
>the way it comes out looking displayed on a CRT is the ideal and "best" look for the game. Is that all correct?
Obviously. I'm even reading this thread on a GDM-FW900
You'd be surprised how many relatively older people have a lot of time to waste online. I come here when I'm at work.
>have you ever seen NES/Mega Drive/SNES games displayed through RGB on a PVM?
I don't believe I have.
That's fair, I just find it so hard to understand. I think that looks absolutely atrocious. Besides contrast and bright colours, what is appealing about all that patterning? Does it really make it look more detailed to you?
I dont know why youre saying that. Im just calling it like it is anon. You want answers for why people dont like hdtvs emulation and lcds...and i am telling you that well...the picture just isnt as good even with rgb upscalers.
Also lets be real why would they replicate scanlines on cardboard for box art? Nothing youre saying holds weight. You seem pretty cool though.
Nothing i said was incorrect. Nothing pedantic about that.
Of course he hasnt. If he had,then,he wouldnt be making this thread. Unless hes baiting in which case thats sad desu senpai
Slightly off-topic query:
If I want to play 6th generation titles on my Trinitron I'm pretty much committed to hunting down a scan converter right? eg. Extron Emotia or one of those Mimo genius boxes.
Or is there some other device that can downsample from 480 to 240p?
I've obtained a scanline fetish and I'd love to play through some GUST RPGs on my CRT.
Some of you got really worked up about my obvious bait. Thing is I bought a Trinitron recently because of everyone praising CRTs and whatnot, but I'm just so disappointed that it doesn't look as good as everyone is saying.
That said, can anyone provide comparison footage/pictures of LCD vs CRT, where the best output and the best TV is used? For example RGB on a PVM vs RGB on a HD Plasma TV or something like that? I think we're all really theoretical in this thread, how about some actual comparison?
An XRGB with a good LCD is the best possible picture you can get,
You don't use a CRT for the best picture. You use it for authenticity.
Your TV has scaling problems btw. Or maybe that the inaccurate aspect? Got some weird overscan option on that's for sure.
No I noticed that. If anything it's the CRT fan's obsession with image purity I find odd. The insistence that CRTs give the most "pure" representation of the game.
I just happen to like seeing the bare pixels instead of an interface pattern like you get on a CRT. Heck most of the time these days I just use a PSP out of simplicity.
doing this will only get you a flickering screen.
Adding scanlines to interlaced content needs deinterlacing first, which induce various level of lag depending on deinterlacing device
LCDs get moire patterns too.
Don't have a problem with good CRTs. Most suck though. I still prefer LCDs.
PC monitors I never had much problem with. Probably because they're progressive.
Yeah that word isn't perfect. I don't honestly pay enough attention to monitors and displays to have learned all the terminology, but that specific glare that CRTs have has always hurt my eyes is all. Probably due to autism, I find it hard to imagine people actually like looking at them.
Glare? I'm not sure I get what you're saying?
Consumer CRTs with composite are always blurry. You talking about that?
Most CRTs have pretty poor anti glare if any. So they reflect light pretty bad.
480i flicker is what does me in. 1 of the 2 major reasons to why I stopped console gaming with 6th gen.
I notice lag when i use lcds so i prefer crts
If youre okay with mistakes made in games like mega man contra or punch out then yeah they are perfectly fine.
Otherwise go with crt every time.
Nah i still notice the lag. Sorry bucko. I notice it. Been playing this retro setup game for a long ass time and I always notice.
I believe that certain people arent as good at telling the difference and that some people just get used to it.
Dont shit on my my preference anon i said nothing to offend your sensibilities.
Hm I just played through Thunder Force IV, Contra Hard Corps, Earth Defence Force and DKC2 on my LCD tv and didn't notice any input lag at all.
I think that just boils down to a placebo effect. You wanna feel input lag because you need a reason to hate LCDs.
No not blurriness, I'm talking about the light emitted by the screen. I find it very glaring and uncomfortable to look at. Old computer monitors were almost impossible for me to use because I have to be 5 or so meters away before looking at them becomes tolerable. And even ignoring excessive cords that's just a pain in the ass.
You werent even talking to me man. I left to go get groceries. I come back and youre still arguing.
Look i have two fine sonys and i still notice. I dont know why youre so offended and butt blasted just because I have a preference.
CRT's show a picture by scanning from top to bottom, so when filmed with a camera not in sync with the CRT screen the CRT will be perceived as flickering in the resulting video since the camera will only capture part of what the CRT is drawing for a particular frame. It will essentially have captured the CRT in the act of drawing a frame.
The extent of the flickering and all of course depends on what frame rate you're filming with and with what shutter speed (shorter shutter speed would theoritecally give thinner bands and vice versa).
Is that enough information to figure it out, now?
How young are you to not know this? Most people who grew up with a CRT and a videocamera would know this. Or if you ever saw video footage of computer screens on TV (unless they'd done it all proper and synced the camera and screens up with each other. I'm talking about footage where the screen shows up inadvertently)
Welcome to 4chan, is this your first day?
Handheld consoles, mode 13h DOS games, the typewriter on Crono's desk, cover art, instruction manuals (pic related)...
Artists intended sharp pixels. Blur was a technical limitation.
>poor reading comprehension
the CRT is the fucking blinking screen
Consider this thread SEGA'd
I didn't ask which one was the CRT.
Let me break down what I said since you're a fucking retard,
>How about some information so we can laugh at the shit LCD you used for the comparison.
How do you get "Which is the CRT" out of that. Damn you're fucking dumb.
>can't tell the difference between CRT and LCD when filmed
Saving that, thank you greatly.
I've yet to see anything at all similar from the other side though. That is, game artists saying they used CRT scanlines and moire on purpose and say that's the best way to view the games. It's often said they do, but I've never seen any proof.
>I can't count to two
>That's fair, I just find it so hard to understand. I think that looks absolutely atrocious. Besides contrast and bright colours, what is appealing about all that patterning? Does it really make it look more detailed to you?
you're really not supposed to look at it that close... that's the wierd thing with this thread and its fetish for extreme closeups
That's why I've mentioned I have unusually good vision, which I suspect is most of my problem. I have to be 5 or more meters away before things even start to blend together the way I assume most people see CRTs.
I've always loved going to to the movies, but before modern screens came about I pretty much couldn't play video games, watch tv or use computers without either a horrid headache or a lot of long cords and irritation. I think that's part of why I'm now so into these old games. I finally get to play them as much as I like. Gameboy was my savior as a kid.
Then you're willfully ignoring the intentions of the developers to have the psuedo hires patterns appear transparent, which means the argument that developers always intended blocky nearest neighbor scaled pixels is debunked.
I see it as the developers using the tools they had at their disposal to do the best they could. It doesn't mean they preferred that at all, just that they were forced to work with it. By proof, I mean something akin to >>2773716 or even any statement by an actual artist.
You're not giving anything close to proof, just more anecdotes and opinions.
Your little manuals are no proof either. Pixels don't have outlines like that, there's no way that's anything more than a simple illustration and is not some statement of intent of what the graphics should look like.
It's a drawing... of course it has lines. It's a hell of a lot more like a depiction of individual pixels than of a CRT blurring them together. There's not a ton of proof either way, but I haven't seen anything else like that or the NES box art that supports what you're saying. That you're grasping at straws instead of posting something conclusive is a pretty good indicator you haven't either.
But I would genuinely like to see it if it exists, even an artist or dev saying casually that they think CRT is the best way for their graphics to be displayed.
do you guys think if SED took over instead of being abandonded in favor of LCD they would be good for retro games?
This fucking thread. A good developers goal in art design is to clearly convey exactly what you were looking at with within the limitations of the hardware. If everything was intended to look like sharp pixels than why did resolutions get larger over time?
>If everything was intended to look like sharp pixels than why did resolutions get larger over time?
Because technology evolves and improves?
Games were stuck at 240p for like 30 years.
I'm not saying they are conclusive, but there's at least decent evidence for it. I'm not discounting that some game artist somewhere used CRT dithering as a purposeful aspect of their design. But if they did, I'd be very interested to learn about it.
Is this how the developers intended for my video game to look?
I cleaned the cartridge pins and the connector pins inside the snes and it still does this
I think this should be a new rule on /vr/, pics can only be posted with scanlines, cause obviously it looks the best according to elitists. Hell why not display the whole board with scanlines?
>another day another /vr/ crt thread
>might as well read it anyways
I love you guys.
It's not the cart because it does this with every game. It's the snes itself probably one of the connector pins is fucked.
wish i had a more recent crt so i could actually see scanlines
that may be true, but it still has the effect of limitation/distortion. if I can get clean, crisp graphics without scanlines etc. then why not?
like I said, if you remember the game from that old ass tv and want to recapture that, I can sort of understand. also, some NES games have "junk" on the side because the devs assumed the tv would cut off that portion. that's the only other reason I can think of.
Wow, people are just shitting it up in this thread today. Let's try and steer it in the right direction.
Here is my Mitsubishi CK-2602r from 1988. It was apparently one of the first consumer TVs to have an S-Video port. Beautiful woodgrain and giant speakers you can hear all over the house.
The picture here is pretty shitty because I'm using composite with my Genesis. Looks much better using S-Video on my SNES. I'll take pics of that in a bit.
Thank you, anon. I was wondering what was going on.
Lol. I honestly don't know which one of those you think looks better. The "you tell me" makes me assume you mean the bottom is best, but I could be wrong.
Anyways, I think the top looks far better than the bottom though, which is just blurry.
If you like the bottom one better that's cool, but I can't understand wanting to look at something that fuzzy. Eyes constantly trying to focus and always seeing an ugly blur is the opposite of good looking to me.
>How does my screen look? Did I do good?
I wish they kept that up. It was weird in Ecco and Sonic to have the 3D used like that to just make the screen look convex. It's not a mode I use a lot, but it would have been cool to include. They've been doing such a good job with those ports that it's all good though.
I meant for the photos you're taking here. You're not taking them with the 3D turned on I assume. Not that I've tried, but I imagine the picture you get would be super weird.
I totally agree with you though, Ecco is possibly my favorite game of all time and the 3DS version is not the definitive one for me. I can't imagine not seeing it in 3D now, it just looks so incredible.
We're old. This is what our games looked like when we were young. We want to recapture that. We don't want to be old or nostalgic so we'll legitimize our opinions however we can.
Let it go friends, we're old and we like our games old. it's going to be alright. :)
>We want to recapture that.
Speak for yourself. I'm over 40 and delighted that I can now make games look way better than they ever could in my youth. I don't want to recapture what these games looked like in the 80's and 90's, I want to see how incredible they can look now.
Which is part of why the 3DS M2 ports are so incredible. Not just seeing Ecco, Space Harrier, Fantasy Zone, Gunstar Heroes etc in crisp clear detail, but actually having depth added makes already great games look breathtaking.
Frankly I think nostalgia is for fools, chasing an idealized memory instead of accepting current reality. I prefer to live in the present.
>What I expected to see
Discussion of CRT televisions for retro gaming
>What I got
Flame war between LCDs (Off topic) & CRTs
I have retroarch installed on the wii, and it gives me the resolution 336 x 240 as an option.
Is that the best one I can choose for Super Nintendo games? 320 x 240 isnt an option unfortunately.
The difference would be very small, right?
I am playing on a crt btw
Pic on right is a marketing thing.
NES couldn't muster that many shades and colors per sprite. It was a lie from day-fuck-one
Left pic is intentional shit for propaganda purposes. A properly connected and configured setup looks better than that.
To sum up, left pic is worse than reality, right pic is unrealistic.
You should learn the subject matter. Even if you don't agree with it, it makes your argument WAY stronger.
Here's a hint...
I can tell just by looking that these are both from an emulator, and the one on the bottom is fed through a software filter. Neither is through a CRT.
If you seriously thought a retro videophile couldn't tell the difference, then you're the one who needs to do your homework.
So I'm sitting here playing DKC2 and all the sudden I here a pop? I think and then a sizzle is the best way I can describe it, picture got a little weird and I fucking panicked, instantly shut off the TV and unplugged, have never had this happen to me in all my years of gaming, noticed a strange smell in the air after.
What in the actual fuck just happened, I'm worried to turn the TV back on.
electricity probably arced between two things it shouldn't have. if it's still working open it up and blow the dust out with something/ remove cobwebs without touching anything.
NO home console release of SFIII looks how it should. The ports were all victims of Capcom's inability to recognize what sloppy scaling does to 2D graphics. Stretched and squashed pixels all over the place.
Nearly all of their CPS2 and 3 ports had this problem.
As long as it's not plugged in, and he doesn't touch any of the exposed metal tops of the capacitors (ESPECIALLY not the fat ones that are as thick or thicker than a stack of quarters) then he should be safe.
Yes, electronics can be dangerous. But unless you're reckless and go poking around violently on shit you're totally clueless about, you probably won't get hurt. Just take it apart carefully and do more looking with your eyes than touching with your hands.
So I got a Super Retro Trio the other day and have been playing genesis games on my Sony Trinitron with it. I'm sort of new to this whole retro gaming thing. I have Sonic 1-3, and when using S-video I've noticed I get some screen distortion (top 2cm of screen is twisted in Chemical Plant Zone) and sometimes the screen flickers between two different image clarities. As if it's switching between component and S-video occasionally. I've noticed this doesn't really happen with Space Harrier II. That game seems to work fine. Is this an issue with my Sonic cartridges? They're used.
Lol. It not just the caps but the anode cap that connects to the degauss wire as well on the back of the tube. If you ground yourself and you touch that you will potentially die.
To properly discharge a CRT to safely work on it, you have to (obviously) turn it off and plug it out of the wall. Turn the TV on and leave it on (out of the AC source) for about an hour or so. After you take the back off, you have to short the degauss wire by grounding it. After that it's safe to work on.
But honestly if you can't even ground a tube you shouldn't be touching one.
I have no plans to work on one, but i was just curious. I know that basic depowering of equipment with any type of capacitance involves unplugging the power source then powering it on to discharge them, but i didnt know about the degauss wire. I never have been inside of a CRT monitor or tv before
Wanting to revive my old Toshiba black stripe monitor with rf only. Everything is well marked and the PCB just pulls out easy but I'm not sure what all the pots refer to. Can any one help me with:
(I can sorta guess those last 2 but the rest I have no idea)
It also says focus and screen on two big black knobs situated on the sticky up black thing in the bottom right corner
Will reward with SMS shots in rf from the Toshiba or sms rgb shots on a bvm ;)
With a bit of fiddling I got the aspect into shape. Still a bit of discolouration in the left side/left corner though
um nothing the hell is wrong with it.
Capcom is to blame for working in weird resolutions that don't translate properly to home hardware.
But what puzzles me to no end is why the 360 & PS3 port of 3rd strike STILL suffers from those stretched and squashed, poorly scaled problems. You'd think with wide screen and full HD being a thing, they'd be able to finally match the resolution of the CPS3, or at least a multiple thereof and fill in the remainder with a border or something.
But that's neither here nor there, and certainly not /vr/.
I'd get up a test pattern rather than a grid if I were you. It'll make your life a hell of a lot easier, you'll be able to tell if your convergence is off and by how much. If you see that there is either red, blue or green slightly off from the white you can add metal strips (called permalloy assemblies) to the back of the tube, which should pull the guns into shape there. It takes a bit of fiddling to get right.
General rule of disassembling electronics:
If you don't know what it is, or what it does, DON'T TOUCH IT WITH YOUR BARE HANDS OR METAL TOOLS... better yet, DON'T TOUCH IT AT ALL!
And if you're the jumpy or nervous type, don't even bother. Let someone else do it.
We all had to learn somewhere tho, and a lot of us did some stupid shit on the way to knowing what we do. I'm surprised I haven't been zapped more often and ruined more electroincs along the way.
But again, follow the basic rules and don't be a dumb fucker, or you may become a dead fucker.
Not the anon you were responding to, but I have a Neo Geo MVS that I can't seem to zero in the convergence on for the life of me. I can get the RGB to line up nicely in the center, but then it's a little off on the top and bottom... or look nice across the bottom, but nasty toward the middle and the top... or nice toward the top but off at the middle and bottom... so on and so forth.
What you just said sounds like it may help, but then there's the issue of not being able to size the pic properly without garbled bullshit showing up at the top.
It's a friggin mess, and from what I can tell, the board (chassis? harness? I forget the proper arcade lingo offhand) isn't even the original that came with the machine.
On my bvm I have to change the apc setting to not get any waviness with my mvs. I think the mvs has a nonstandard refresh rate and that's the reason for this. The bvm has a switch, not sure what you would do on a normal tv
Should I finally chuck my CRT? Its still fully functional but at this point, Im getting a greater demand for HD-related stuff. I currently have an n64, SNES, and S-video modded Sega at the house, but I have a blu ray player, and a computer that only puts out HDMI instead of analog, and even watching TV is an issue with all the stations broadcasting 16:9 now.
When it's just me, the CRT is great, but as soon I have to move, or have people over, its a major inconvenience. Its just an apartment so I have no other room to put it in. It has 2 s-video-in ports, 3 AV ins, and 1 component video in, so its one of those D to A converter units.
Get something smaller and more convenient like an Amiga monitor. Jesus Christ I love mine and I only paid like 15 bucks for it.
I dont know about actual camera users, but with an iPad, its just a matter of patience screen focus, and the occasional white piece of paper in front of the lens for white balance & refocus.
I got a BVM-D20F1A (A for Australia!) about a month ago without a controller, which I ordered online and it showed up a couple of days ago. It's a beautiful set, but I have noticed there is some visible interference or sort of subtle movement over the top of the display. I can't quite articulate it, but I'll take some photos shortly.
I have caps on the BNC output plugs, tried component and RGB, multiple systems, swapping the input cards into different slots, and it all suffers from the same issue.
It's frustrating because it's small problem, but it's consistently there. Rarely after 30 minutes or so it will "warm up" and the interference (for lack of a better word) will be reduced or almost gone. Does anyone have any idea what the issue could be? I'm preparing to take it to a Sony Broadcast technician next week otherwise.
Trinitron WEGA is a wide product line. The EDTV and HDTV models should be great for 480p and the SD models may or may not be good for 240p. It depends on the specific model and may even depend on the signal type you're using.
Looks like a Sony KV-27FS120
27" FD Trinitron® Wega® TV
>implying the devs intended games to be played with 8:7 aspect ratio in emulators
>implying CRT blur is so bad that you can't make out keys on the typewriter in Crono's room
>never use a tube when live
You have to be inside the TV while running to fix convergence problems. I did it and lived. Just don't be a moron and don't ground yourself stupidly.
>not recognizing a computer PSU cable
More comparison shots, so you can see RF/composite/S-video. I believe developers worked with S-video by 1995 at square. But the fact is that you can see separate keys on all of those (obviously clearest on s-video and RGB, though).
Screen - high voltage level, I think pretty much master brightnes.
Focus - exactly as described, alter it to change the focal length of the electron guns. Google focal length for more.
Ground the degauss wire what in the fuck? You ground the anode cap, mate. Preferably with heavy guage wire like a multimeter lead or better yet a high-voltage probe. And you make fucking sure there's no way for the current to jump to you or through you, especially to ground.
Grounding the degauss wire won't do shit.
No I am not. Don't ask me tech details, but SNES doesn't blur a single pixel, not even on RF, as a matter of fact it also does some kind of thing to stabilize dot crawl.
Meanwhile, the Genesis does some kind of lowpassing on the composite pin, which results in pixels being horizontally interpolated with each other. But on H32, the 256xwhatever mode, this does not happen. I don't know, maybe it has something to do with how this low passing is supposed to affect specific signals which are synced to work primarily with H40 modes.
Sup so I finally got to the service menu on my 14m2u but now I need to know which setting can rotate the screen. It's slanted off to the bottom left. Anybody have suggestions? I don't want to go through over 100 options