Previous thread - >>2758694
This thread is for the spirited discussion of CRT displays - Televisions, monitors and projectors used for the playing of retro games!
>Try to keep it /vr/-related: Nothing past 5th gen(+Dreamcast). Slight OT might be okay if related to CRTs (E.G. 16:9 compatible models, flatscreens, etc.) Systems with backwards compatibility are also pretty safe territory, assuming you're focusing on the older games. PC CRTs are also a-ok.
>Produce OC! Get out your real cameras and take beautiful pictures of your CRTs displaying recognizable characters with the kind of beautiful accuracy that brings tears to the eyes of young and old alike! If you take 100 photos, at least one of them will turn out alright! (maybe)
>Try to be as detailed as possible when asking info on a specific model. As always, google is your friend, and we are your friends with benefits. Older archived threads aren't a bad place to look either.
>Share appreciation for others choice of technology and personal philosophy of gaming. As always show courtesy in your discussion and moderate yourselves first.
CRT Pastebin (WIP): http://pastebin.com/1Ri5TS3x
S-Video Pasta: http://pastebin.com/rH2h6C7W
Thread Survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1PhdXJYwA8xModrTV1Yt-i1tvNgwiagpeBx0m_xNIVtc/viewform?edit_requested=true&fbzx=9009823977812318933
please ignore the fake other CRT thread, it's full of trolls
My eyes hurt when using a my CRT for at least 2 minutes, even less. how can I stop this from happening?
I think its related to scanlines
I've got it on 60hz, can I push it up to 75hz with a 3840x480 res?
and today the only thing that keeps me coming back to /vr/ died
That is bound to happen if one is forcing himself to stare on a fucking bright screen.
Just turn on some goddamn lamps in your room and reduce brightness and contrast that black is not too dark and that white doesn't blind you, that white simply looks white to you.
Maybe I'm completely wrong with the assumption that you're using a too bright CRT in a too dark room or my eyes are simply superior to most other people. Who knows.
If you're going to emulate 60hz games then it will be not a good idea, unless you can push 120hz.
>I just know I can't stand 60Hz on a PC monitor.
This is really cute.
I use 50hz all the damn time, even with fucking interlacing and I use that on a 15khz CRT to read fucking text.
I really starting to think that my eyes are better than average or that everyone else is using his CRT in a darkroom.
>wild SHITPOSTER used CAPSLOCK
>It's not very effective
The only time when the mods deleted a thread was because everyone started to discuss using CRTs to watch anime.
Welcome to /vr/. Since the birth of this board there were crt threads. Also writing in caps makes you look like a angry 14y old. If you don`t like it, there are other boards to discuss videogames and to be a huge faggot.
Should I buy a JVC PVM with these inputs if the only retro consoles I have are PS1 and Super Famicom? I know nothing about this stuff but it's only $40 so I figured I might as well go for it if the inputs are good for those consoles.
I, personally, wouldn't pay that much for a monitor that only does composite at best.
I probably paid less for my two RGB-capable 14" Sony PVMs together.
Are they also called PVMs?
The only JVC monitors I'm aware of are the DT-V, which I've been stalking on eBay since they have multiformat (240p/480i and 480p to 1080p) but they just go for way too much.
I'm not sure if it's called a PVM or not, but the model number is TM-A101GU and it says it's from a TV station so I just assumed.
I'll hold off then, I don't really play games enough anymore to warrant getting a new CRT when I still have a working 10" Sylvania.
Be on the lookout for other monitors, though. As long as it isn't some awesome multiformat goodness (My dream CRT is one of those 16:9 32" PVMs with multiformat. I would be able to ditch the flatscreen.), you should be able to find something that also does RGB for about that much. Or at least I was able to.
The shitstorm in the previous thread inspired me to make something.Enjoy, /crt/.
Im asking people who have BVM or PVM monitors where they picked theres up.? I already own a BVM-20F1U i got of ebay.
But im looking to purchase a BVM-D32E1U and can only find 2 from the same seller on ebay and he's being a PITA about shipping because he is located out of Cali and im on the east coast. Any help would be appreciated thanks!!
What sort of breakout would I need in order to use a Playstation RGB/SCART cable (sync-on-luma) with a BVM or PVM?
Apparently luma-sync gives the best video picture, but broadcast monitors require external sync and all the breakout cables I seen so far are wired for composite-sync.
You have to use a scart to RGBs. The composite sync(csync) via RGBs is better than luma sync as it a dedicated sync output for just h/v sync, while luma is brightness info and sync. Luma is a close 2nd but RGBs csync is better.
Careful, from what I've seen, the D32s have real troubles with color purity.
>and all the breakout cables I seen so far are wired for composite-sync.
If a SCART cable is wired for sync-on-luma, that just means that the pin that would usually carry either Cvid or Csync is carrying luma instead. Any regular SCART to RGBS breakout cable will work correctly.
If the monitor would work with composite video sync without troubles, there will be no problem with luma sync. If it requires "raw/clean" composite sync, then you'd need to look into getting a sync stripper, as luma will cause the same incompatibility as normal video.
PS1 doesn't have any problems with composite video for sync; The reason you only see composite video for sync or luma sync cables is because Sony's Multiout doesn't actually have dedicated csync available.
>No idea if a BVM or PVM will work with a PS1 with sync on luma.
I assumed it would but I could be wrong.
As >>2774691 said, the original Playstation has issues if used with composite sync (visual patterns/artifacting being some). PS1 was apparently built with RGsB in mind which may have something to do with it.
Excellent. Thank you. If I might ask one more thing though:
Will a PVM/BVM definitely accept luma sync as external-sync, or should I get a cable wired with a sync stripper just to be on the safe side?
America uses by.
>Will a PVM/BVM definitely accept luma sync as external-sync, or should I get a cable wired with a sync stripper just to be on the safe side?
Can try luma as sync with a sync stripper; If luma doesn't work
I'm pretty sure that pulling csync directly without some sort of buffering is going to cause problems, so that's really not a Sony specific problem. Again, since you need to open the system up to even gain access to it, it's really not a very common option to go for.
As for composite, I personally haven't notice any quality differences between using cvid or luma. Not to say there isn't one, but it's not something I've run into.
Really, the only system that has any sizable problem with using cvid for sync is the Genesis, and even that varies by board revision.
Would probably depend on where you're from and language of choice, but I've always used by. Same idea as lumber dimensions.
Two by Four
Four by Three
X by Y
>PS1 was apparently built with RGsB in mind which may have something to do with it.
You're not going to see any type of sync being fed along the Green line of a PS1.
A PS2 or PS3, sure (for both component and progressive scan RGB), but not the first.
>cvid for sync
I'll tell you the worst system for cvid for sync in my experience:
Atari STFM (the kind that has RF out and outputs composite, not csync)
The composite signal is so poor quality the screen will start scrolling if the picture gets too bright. Looking at the composite signal its probably worse than Mega Drive/Genesis which is really a feat because my Atari ST is PAL.
I should mod the system for csync one of these days.
>csync without any buffering
What kind of problems can this give? My current RGB mod for my PCE has no buffering on the csync. It tends to work just fine picture-wise with everything I've plugged it into, but is there some other reason I should maybe throw in a cap there (or maybe even an amp?).
That's my dream CRT, the one that would obviate the need for a flat screen. It's a shame I probably won't ever be able to find one locally/or even on my continent, though (yuropoor). I've heard that shipping those things across the atlantic will kill them (plus they're really expensive) so I'd rather find it at least within Yurop (except UK, because fuck the Royal Mail.)
Interesting to hear it might have color problems, though. How bad is it if you're not using it as a reference monitor?
If the PCE is fine with it, just go for it I guess.
I'm speaking mainly in hypotheticals here, but for systems that have csync offered outright, it's rarely if even a direct connection to the IC generating it, right?
Perhaps buffering is the wrong term, but that's primarily all I was trying to say. I guess I just can't words right now.
It doesn't have it offered outright though, unless you consider it being on the EXT connector being outright. By default the PCE (white one) is RF only, heh.
I have buffered the audio channels that I took from inside the PCE, btw. I rarely use those, though, because they are poorly amped and the sound that comes out of the interface unit, when it's plugged into that, sounds much better + has the CD audio.
>EXT connector being outright.
I feel like that would fit.
When I say without any buffering, I mean more along the lines of trying to use the csync pin of a Mega Drive's VDP directly for sync. It's just not going to work properly without extra components.
I have the 20f1u for older stuff. I just want the d32 for its size, higher res, and widescreen.
Yeah a 220lb beast isnt cheap to ship even just across the US.
For the person asking about PS1 sync here is a cable you can buy that allows you to choose which sync you want to use. Composite, luma, or Csync
That understandable, but still, that specific model seems to get purity issues in the corners very often.
Its little brother, the D24 doesn't seem to have said problems; It also doesn't have the size, but the resolution and screen format are the same.
Nabbed from ebay. Convergence in the corners just goes to shit for whatever reason.
My worry there was the 24" is fine in 16:9 but it lacks the size factor 4:3 which would bother me because id be connecting my ps2, xbox, and gamecube to it and not all games support 16:9 if it was always widescreen i would have bought the 24" already.
Much cheaper to ship because its light enough to be under the freight weight limit.
But the one 32" on ebay has that exact same issue, so maybe ill look into buying a D24 for widescreen and the D20 for 4:3 and just daisy chain the monitors together.
question you might be able to answer whats the difference between the D24 and the A24
or the WU vs WE vs WA these i believe are just region specifiers
but the D vs A idk what those are for
I'm that dude;
I've actually already sourced a PlayStation SCART cable with luma sync. What I need now is a breakout cable with BNC connectors.
The site you listed has them but the question remains whether a BVM will take raw luma as a sync signal. I'm contemplating getting the version with a sync stripper just in case but I dunno.
D24 would actually have nearly the same screen size for 4:3 content as any 20'' PVM/BVM. There is a slight difference(can't remember the exact numbers) but it's a very small one; Something like 100% vs 104%, with the D24 being the 20.
Daisy chaining monitors together is still fun though, assuming you've got the right input cards.
U,E,A, and J are all just region specifiers, and should be relatively self explanatory.
D and A are different series of monitors, with A being newer, if I'm remembering correctly. I've also heard about them(the A series) having some problems with certain systems, with the Neogeo being the one that comes to mind. Input cards are not compatible between the two and I believe that the As are more expensive in that regard as well.
You dont need the sync i have the sync on luma, which i thought was csync, ps1 cable had to double check. My scart to BNC is this cable and it works.
thank you for your information
yeah the 20" has a 19" diagonal while the 24"
is only 17 7/8" but that extra inch means alot on a smaller screen haha but i have a 21" pc monitor i might use for 4:3 anyway. I have a component to VGA convertor on the way. It a KDS vs-21e its fancy as hell for a pc monitor and i got it for free so im happy.
also have a viewsonic a90 but it doesnt power on something wrong with the power unit
According to the site the cable can come with a sync stripper for composite video sync, but it doesnt offer the option to choose, so idk if its in the cable already or not, but that cable is what i have and it works.
i may end up getting a 32" still only cause the 24" is just over the freight cutoff so shipping will be about the same for either monitor and why not go bigger at that point, if the 24" had been cheaper by a large extent id no doubt buy it. But we shall see.
I have one as well, but it has some discoloration on the top; I think it may be actual damage to the shadow mask to be entirely honest. Looks nice besides that though.
>component to VGA convertor
If you wouldn't mind me asking, which converter? I've been tossing around the idea of getting one to use primarily with my GC on the Megaview (rather than modifying the cable). Being able to use other progressive component consoles with PC monitors would be nice as well.
It's listed as a separate item: https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/female-rgb-break-out-scart-to-4-x-bnc--2-x-rca-for-sony-pvm-monitors
And for a decent amount more money.
That's entirely up to you, and I hope you manage to find a good one. I was just trying to let you know that the larger set has problems(in general, not just one specific monitor)
im just trying the Monoprice one, idk how the quality is, but its priced around the same as others so im gonna try it. I should have it by the end of the week I can let you know then how it works.
HEY YOU MAN DONT BUY THAT CABLE JUST YET NOW THAT >>2774940 showed me that other listing I may have purchased the cable with the sync stripper im not sure mine no longer has the sticker on it like my others... let me see if i can find my receipt for it and i can then tell you exactly which one i bought.
okay double checked my scart to bnc, took the scart end apart i dont believe i have a sync stripper, cause its just wires in there nothing else but idk what exactly the sync stripper would look like if its a circuitboard ordeal or what.
Something similar to this; Not exactly, but close. It'd likely be a little triangular pcb sitting inside the SCART hood.
Is anyone else having trouble getting images to upload properly? I've tried selecting this image and slightly edited versions of it repeatedly and it just won't take it.
ok thats what i thought yeah i dont have any circuit board in my cable so its just a passive connector soo >>2774920 you dont need a sync stripper.
Do you have 4chan pass or do you just deal with the bs picture captchas?
ALso idk about pics i havent tried uploading one but ill try, heres part of my game collection just happened to be the first pic i saw.
haha i need to actually start playing my games instead of just buying more, but i never have time its either work,sleep,or adult responsibilites getting in the way.
I was just asking about the captchas because idk if its worth the $20 for the 4chanpass or not, cause they are annoying but i really dont post much not enough to warrant $20 IMO.
Ah. I can definitely see shipping it causing or making what's there even worse with that too...
Well it is but a dream. Would be neat to find a multiformat monitor at all, though. I saw a 17" JVC DT-V in Spain go for 400 euro on eBay... Now I can only find the same model for more than a thousand euro in germany. and I thought 400 was too much...
I mean my current monitors (PVM-14L4 and PVM-14L2) I got locally for about $20 each.
I wish there was some way to version bump the 14L4 into a L5. The tube is the same...
Come on now. I'm a large proponent of emulation and one of the main haters of CRTs on this board. I seriously think the picture they produce is hideous, distorts the game and I honestly have a very hard time understanding why anyone wants to look at them in 2015.
But all that said, there's nothing at all wrong with a thread about them here. Especially when the bulk of the discussions is on using them with video games of the same era.
Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean you should troll and shitpost. All that does is make the overall environment around here worse and encourage CRT fans to in turn be dicks about LCDs and emulators. We all have to work together to make this place better, shitposting either way does the opposite.
>I honestly have a very hard time understanding why anyone wants to look at them in 2015
CRT is the lowerest latency display. CRT eliminates sample-and-hold blur without adding latency like simple strobed backlights do (CRT is equivalent to an ideal scanning backlight).
Sample-and-hold LCD (by far the most common type) is far more ugly than even the worst CRT.
We all have our opinions, that's my point. I don't think LCDs are perfect, but I think just the look of a CRT screen is so ugly that it by far compensates. I know you disagree fundamentally and probably like the light they give off, which is fine. But not everyone feels that way.
>Especially when the bulk of the discussions is on using them with video games of the same era.
90% of the CRTs here are from 2000 and later.
>Just because you don't like something
I don't hate CRTs. My point is that LCDs get post deleted on /vr/ but CRTs don't.
>CRT eliminates sample-and-hold blur without adding latency
Do we need to start this again? Because you're still wrong about this.
I picked up a 19 inch sony pvm from TSN. Never used - $40
being in buttfuck nowhere and finding this thing so cheap was a godsend. Waiting on my RBG cables but I think it still looks good on dirty composite. I have this board to thank for helping me find it. thanks guys.
What other appliances around a monitor can excite the phosphors? I've seen this from time to time on one of my PVMs and it just happened on my Vectrex. Turned out the lights and realized it was glowing like what usually happens after using it for a bit. This is great but I haven't even turned the thing on in at least a week. Something around it must be causing this but the question is what.
The only external entity I'm aware of that would affect phosphor deflection is a magnetic field. Barring random noise from EMI on a signal, of course.
Unfortunately, I don't know much about how Vector displays first so you'd probably need to look up an arcade repair guide/servicing manual on the subject to see causes for certain behaviors on a monitor.
He's not talking about phosphor deflection though, he's talking about phosphor activation by external sources. Regarding which...
Regarding which...There's often a background glow to CRT screens due to ambient electric fields in the home. I remember similar from my childhood. I presume a strong enough external electric field would also make a difference.
Out of interest, when you turn the screens on, are they brighter than normal, or about the same?
Must be depending on where I have them setup because my primary setup doesn't do this as far as I know. My only concern is when this happens the phosphors are slowly aging while I'm not even using it.
I'll have to check to see if it is brighter next time I notice it happen.
Anybody have a good read that explains the more technical side of CRTs?
>What other appliances around a monitor can excite the phosphors?
Any light source of sufficient frequency. UV will definitely work, probably visible blue too. Works like glow-in-the-dark phosphors.
finally hooked up my d20f1u.
parallel worlds link looks like such a faggot
i'm not sure if i'm weeb enough to play it, but i knew it was a good looking game so i grabbed a shot.
Strider 2 doesn't come out the best in my photos for some reason. It's far, far superior in person.
Yup, assuming you're going to be using it from less than 0.9144 meters away. Check for burn and be aware they're surprisingly deep, especially at that small size. Personally I'd only give about 18.42 euros for it but I already have a 13 and a 20
any safety tips or general tips for pvms? should I not be placing things on top of it i.e. systems and cartridges? i'm aware that even when unplugged it can hold vast amounts of voltage (enough to kill you). can't find any info elsewhere
It's different. All BVMs (as far as I'm aware) require clean sync (raw sync, composite sync, call it what you will). All PVMs however can use sync on composite or sync on luma (composite video/s-video for sync respectively). Honestly though I'm of the opinion that if you have a bit more money to spend, get csync cables. They're much more versatile and will allow you to do stuff like daisy chaining PVMs and using Extron switches and interfaces.
The PS2 doesn't output clean sync natively so you'll need to get a sync stripped either built into the head of the SCART cable or use a breakout cable with one built in. Or you could use something like the sync strike in line.
In theory you could but it would require you to replace all the internal boards haha. Not worth it.
I have an L5 (the Australian equivalent, D20L5A) and honestly the 480p function is hardly ever used. Most of the time its for component from the Gamecube but even then, not all that often. I'd just use a computer monitor and a transcoder or an LCD for 480p content.
So I checked the sticky but I didn't see anything about Sharp crts. I'm looking into buying this one, anyone know if it's good? The reviews I've seen for it are pretty mixed, and everyone seems to say either it's shit or it's perfect.
This is the specific model: http://www.cnet.com/products/sharp-27u-f810-27-crt-tv/specs/
And according to my quick research this is a flat screen crt but cant get anymore info on whether it supports a max 480i or a higher resolution the only manuals that pop up are service manuals which are of no use to me
It's connected to channel A because YpPbPr complains about no sync. vertical adjust doesn't let me change it very far. My mad scientist scheme to connect stuff with RGB + sync isn't ready
YPbPr carries sync on the green signal. When you use YPbPr you want to turn external sync off. RGBs carries sync externally (though composite sync, composite video sync or luma sync), so when you use RGB you want to turn external sync on. So make sure that external sync isn't on if you wanna test with component.
Also just double check that somewhere on the setting there's not a switch to change from RGB to Component, since often they use the same line. On my PVM14M4A it's external (there's a button that you press that will switch from RGB and YPbPr), but on my D20L5A it's internal (i.e. you have to go within the system menus to change it).
>Is there some kind of modern HDD video player that can output 480i?
A PS3 makes a relatively decent media player; Paired with a server on a nearby computer, it can have quite a nice bit of content streamed to it, and it comes out looking pretty nice.
On top of that, you've got access to RGBS or YPbPr, 480i or 480p(RGsB) for the former, and anything from 480i up to 1080p for the latter.
While it isn't the best on file types, that's where streaming from a media server comes in handy.
Not sure if it's something I'm overlooking in my setup, but some files do seem to have a bit of trouble with keeping audio and subs synced(only GITS and Wakfu come to mind personally), but it works quite well otherwise.
RGBS, ala SCART; Uses the same exact cable as the PS1 and PS2.
If you don't have a SCART cable, a component cable that also has a composite cable attached works just as well; Alternatively, a standard component cable paired with a light gun breakout like this works as well.
It ALSO supports progressive RGB output in the form of RGsB (sync on green); Also a carryover from the PS2, but in this case, the system can output it at all times, system menu and all rather than just in game. Again, this is limited to 480p; To get anything higher, you have to use YPbPr or HDMI.
Nope, standard component cable works fine for it as well.
The system is generating everything related to the video signal outright.. Technically, a few small pieces of wire would work, so long as you could actually manage to get them to contact stuff properly.
I think you should technically have capacitors on the video lines to filter out the AC when in RGB mode, but it's worked perfectly fine with my PVMs and Megaview.
For non-professional equipment though, YMMV.
I posted this in the other thread, but fuck I don't know which is real
So I got a Super Retro Trio the other day and have been playing genesis games on my Sony Trinitron with it. I'm sort of new to this whole retro gaming thing. I have Sonic 1-3, and when using S-video I've noticed I get some screen distortion (top 2cm of screen is twisted in Chemical Plant Zone) and sometimes the screen flickers between two different image clarities. As if it's switching between component and S-video occasionally. I've noticed this doesn't really happen with Space Harrier II. That game seems to work fine. Is this an issue with my Sonic cartridges? They're used.
Hmm, when you are playing Genesis on your SRT via Svideo do you have both the Svideo AND Yellow video cable plugged in? Try only having one video cable plugged in at a time, either Svideo OR yellow composite- not both.
The Svideo input on the front of trinitrons have get notoriously finicky over the years as they tend to take a lot of punishment being on the front of the tv and often exposed.
If your front Svideo input is weak/dying/breaking it could be that you ARE experiencing your tv flickering between Svideo and yellow composite if you've got both cables plugged in
I did have both cables plugged in. Now I have just the S-video, and the image switches between S-video output and blackness at even 1-second intervals. What the hell? Playing Sonic 2.
>All BVMs (as far as I'm aware) require clean sync
Nah brah, no need to clean anything. Even the dirtiest Composite Vid is fine to use for sync, it'll come out clean as a whistle. Shit, you might even be able to feed RF in (via an adaptor). BVM's are the battleships of the CRT world. They do anything, with anything, and do it fricking perfectly.
This may not be true for the BVM-2000AP from the 80's, but it is for everything since. The sync line on a BVM will also handle 8Vp-p so you can just combine dat shit and not worry.
It could be that you've got a bad cable or a bad Svideo input on your trinitron. Try plugging the Svideo into one of the inputs in the back of the tv. They are usually a bit more sturdy
So after reading the pastebin, what I'm getting is that S-Video is the way to go correct?
At a local antique store I ran into a really nice 36inch Sony CRT with Component Inputs, Composite and and one SVideo input.
Would using Svideo be better than using the component on a CRT still?
I just want to be able to play Jet Set Radio Future and not have it look as awful as it does, especially on my 46 inch Samsung LCD TV.
>So after reading the pastebin, what I'm getting is that S-Video is the way to go correct?
>sour grapes svideofags actually spewed their bullshit enough to make people actually believe it.
S-video is just what you settle for when you can't get component or RGB.
I'm going to do it, the urge to play Resident Evil Dead Aim and Silent Scope with my light guns only increases as I browse this board more and more.
Component would be best but S-video really is not that much "worse" than Component.
If S-video is significantly cheaper or easier to come by you will be pretty happy with that.
However since you mentions JSRF I'm guessing you are talking about OGXbox- and component cables are pretty easy to come by for that for relatively cheap. Also OGXbox looks GREAT in component.
>S-video = sour grapes
Its all a matter of the cost benefit analysis.
For systems like SNES or PS1 the hoops/time/effort/money you may have to jump through to get Component/RGB on your system running through that really may not worth it for the minimal "benefit" you may see.
Sempai Kya has stated in the past (and feel free to correct me anyone else) that for the most part S-video produces practically as competent quality video as RGB/Component/Scart.
Its pretty good, but just make sure that whatever CRT you are getting can actually use the lightgun as certain "HD CRTs" have limited or no light gun compatibility.
I know for certain from personal experience that the ##FS120 series of Sony Trinitrons work great with all light guns.
Think of it this way. Compared to RF and composite and all the artifacts you'd see from those, S-video gives better sharpness and color, but most of all a great noise-free image. No combing or grittiness or dullness.
RGB and component offer even better sharpness and color over S-video, but visibly not much in terms of reducing noise since S-video tackles that very well already.
The problem with S-Video though is that it's completely ruined by poor cables. And if you're going to go official cables it's going to cost. I think I've managed to get good quality S-Video out of a console about once, and even then the colors are quite different. I'd say S-Video is same as composite just sharper with less noise, but RGB/Component improves the colors by a lot.
Whole heartedly agree, but a statement like
Component ≈ RGB > S-video > Composite
Is technically correct, but can lead to some misconceptions. Something like the below might clear things up a little better
Component ≈ RGB/Scart (10/10) > S-video (9/10) > Composite (5/10) > RF (2/10)
Those are my personal scores, but hopefully you get the jist. There is a benefit jumping from S-video to RGB/Component, but its limited and not extremely noticeable.
For some people the jump is an absolute must and a religious experience. For others it is really not needed and is just money spent for almost no increased benefit.
Fingers crossed for you anon. I hope that you just have a janky svideo cable, and that if you replace it the problem will be fixed.
With the SRT I have found that a different/better s-video cable helps.
Also make sure that you are using the proper power supply for the console. I've found that with clones if you dont have the exact right power supply it can make things screwy with your system.
>So after reading the pastebin, what I'm getting is that S-Video is the way to go correct?
>At a local antique store I ran into a really nice 36inch Sony CRT with Component Inputs, Composite and and one SVideo input.
>Would using Svideo be better than using the component on a CRT still?
Well done, you made me quote the complete remainder of the post.
I'm that original poster, clarifying what I said I wanted to see if there was a better quality picture in terms of using S Video over Component. I understand and I'm sure most of those posters know that the OG Xbox had no S Video output, but it was a general question I was throwing out there because I also own a Sega Genesis, Sega Saturn, Dreamcast, NES, and SNES as well and know some of those can be modified to output S Video because I misunderstood and assumed that S Video was also just as good as component cables if not better.
Next time think before you post please.
This board is also granted dispensation to talk about non /vr/ subjects as they relate to CRT usage. There's often overlap.
>EDTV[s] are nice cause they support up to 480p i believe
Minus the "up to" part, in most cases. They just process 240p/480i and show it as 480p. There are probably exceptions, but no multiformat consumer sets really did 480i natively.
Turn off H-delay and V-delay? Or whatever those are called on ikegami? That is, if there's no straight up V-hold.
ok i see>>2777879 now. Good to know i was right :)
>This thread is for the spirited discussion of CRT displays - Televisions, monitors and projectors used for the playing of retro games!
Is an old arcade machine I'm trying to restore the monitor on (or explore other options) fine too?
RF < Composite Video < S-Video < Component YPbPr ≤ RGB
Refined that for you. Also key note that video output quality is not created equal between different systems (See: Non-OneChip SNES)
Yes, but only up to 480p (via RGsB, like component). Therefore it's usually not recommended for PS3 except for PS1/PS2 titles on the system. Not sure why it can't go to 720p other than an analog bandwidth limitation somewhere in the system (Can CFW push higher than 480p RGsB or is it locked via hardware?).
Absolutely. It's a monitor that natively accepts RGB from retro game sources so it fits the bill. Care to discuss what you're trying to repair? Nanao? WG? I'm assuming around 29" since that's very common for arcade monitors.
Hey anon. I'm not versed on crt, but enjoy the superior quality it produces for snes. I'm not using a pvm or anything special, just one of those Samsung go clamshell tvs. How would I go about using an rf connection? Would any mods need to be done to the snes? What would be a better cut for optimum visuals? Thanks.
I'm hoping you mean RGB in that question for connection because RF is literally the worst quality output you can get from the SNES (or any console). To answer that question, there are tons of dedicated RF cables for the NES/SNES that plug into its internal RF Modulator. If that TV you mentioned is RF only, that's unfortunately the best you're going to get out of it anyways.
The "best cut" for optimum image quality you are going to get is RGBS but you also need a compatible monitor that can receive an RGB signal.
If the TV you mentioned has component ports, you can use an RGB > YPbPr Transcoder to convert the native RGBs on the multi-out to component. Otherwise, your only options that don't require you to get a new monitor are Composite AV cables or the RF out.
He was saying in that post that generally RF is the worst and RGB/component is the best. You don't want to use RF if it can be avoided.
If that's really what you want to do, though, you'd need an RF adapter for your system to connect to the antenna input on your TV.
>Component ≈ RGB/Scart (10/10) > S-video (9/10) > Composite (5/10) > RF (2/10)
In my recent experience with a wii it was more like:
Component (10/10) > S-video (5.5/10) > Composite (5/10)
Double checked to make sure the s-video cable was wired correctly.
There is some improvement over S-vid, and reds gets better because NTSC is shitty at them (PAL does better), but the jump is nowhere near going composite to S-video.
If your only better options is S-video, go for it.
Yeah, each step along the road from RF, Composite, S-Vid, Component, and finally to RGB has diminishing returns (with Component and RGB being near identical). It's still worth the investment if you have the compatible hardware though.
For europe, it's usually easier to go RGB because of SCART equiped TVs.
For NA, it's usually simpler to go S-video because many TV have it and outside of PVMs you need a transcoder to go RGB to Component.
And then there's the poor australia, PAL land but little to no SCART tvs ; for them, S-video is by far the easiest route.
And there's also devices like projectors, some may support SCART signals over their VGA in, but the adaptor is often hard to find. For this S-video is probably the best compromise.
I'm an Ausfag and I had never seen S-video until I started browsing the internet. Still never seen one in person.
Here it was either RF, composite or component. Those were your options until the advent of HDMI (at least where I live).
I see PVMs as great retro setup TVs regardless of their RGB ability... small, boxy, stackable, durable, handles, etc.
So you may as well try for a PVM. And once you get one, might as well go RGB. Especially for the easy RGB consoles like SNES.
Perfect manageable retro setup is a 14" PVM. Then if you have the space, grab a secondary 27"+ consumer Trinitron.
Nigga you on cr... wait... Mate, you're dreamin'
SCART did exist here, though it was pretty damn rare. If you had mates with dads who bought top TV's and Hifis and had VHS in the 70's and CD players in the very early 80s, their TVs might have had SCART.
My point is that it does turn up on sets you find on the curb, though not very often, and never really on Trinitrons.
However, Trinitrons did have S-Video here. I have no idea what you've been smoking if you think otherwise. All of them that had component would have had S-Video, at any rate. And the same goes for competing brands. There was tons of S-Video here. Sure, we had no idea what it was, but it's on most better sets from about 1992-3 onwards.
I want to invest some money into a Dreamcast with a light gun, mostly for the house of the dead series.
Will my Sony Trinitron work with a light gun?
I've been reading around and all I can find are conflicting sources.
>light guns work well with most crts
>light guns do not work at all with flat screen crt's
Thanks for the feedback. Do you have experience with light guns and flat crt's or if it just conjecture?
I know light guns aren't expensive but I'd rather not waste money if I don't have to.
Its that light guns only work with 15khz tvs so anything that runs 480i max should be in the clear its the 31k displays as well as digital that cause ligh guns to not work.
Atleast this is my understanding dont quote me im just a random guy on the internet
>Thanks for the feedback. Do you have experience with light guns and flat crt's or if it just conjecture?
Ya like 15 years ago.
>what am I in for?
It's easy to set up. As long as you got good jp21 cables it will look amazing.
>how difficult is it to find a LCD/Plasma with as close to zero lag as possible?
Very if you mean TVs. A good gaming TV only gets made every few years. Last one being the Sony w7/w8 b models.
Yeah that's right. The way light guns work is that when you pull the trigger, it send two signals. One to the console, telling it to make the screen completely black for a frame EXCEPT for a white box where the target is, and at the same time telling the gun to activate its sensor. If the sensor in the gun lines up with the white box on the screen in that frame, it registers as a hit.
With newer displays and 480p displays, because of the processing lag when you pull on the trigger the sensor is activated first, then the white box shows on the screen. But because of the delay the sensor has already shut off by the time the white box gets to the screen, so it registers as a miss.
The more you know!
Perhaps I'm just biased because I'm a sucker for Sony display technology, but honestly anything Sony in terms of CRT, Plasma or LED and you won't be disappointed. Sony LEDs are pretty much top of the line for gaming and while some of them might be better than others, even the worst of the bunch is going to be better than 90% of panels out there. You honestly can't really go wrong with Sony.
Ugh, just because TV manufacturer marketing departments have gotten everyone used to calling LED-backlit LCD TVs "LED TVs" doesn't mean we should propagate that same bullshit in the CRT thread no less.
I used my Wii to watch old toku shows on my CRTs but honestly the Wii just sucks for playback and I can't think of any other solution that uses RGB and could handle MKV.
I did watch Victory on my CRT monitor but I don't have enough space for the monitor to be connected all the time.
OGXbox does an ok job as long as it's no more than 480p in H264 (but depending on the encoding it might stutter though :/ so an overclocked OGXbox might be better). I would need to use a transcoding server, like with PS3's, for some more demanding material however. Also ofc no ASS rendering of subs, but it will display subs sort-of ok. (depends on how much you can tolerate subs staying on for too long etc. Also depends on if you're using the DVDPlayer or mplayer backend)
Otherwise as suggested higher up in the thread: use a PS3 with a transcoding server on your PC.
Wii component is (7/10) tops. I don't know what they did do make their component signal look so shit, but they must've done something seriously wrong. The reds are bleeding everywhere and the colors are totally wrong when you compare 240p/480i across component and RGB scart.
It's almost at the level I'd prefer playing some games in 480i RGB over 480p component.
My thing I'm doing this weekend is attaching RCA cables to those RGBS pins somehow, possibly solder and shrink tube, to see if it works. The composite output already looks OK, and handles various resolutions well, but flickers like a mofo. I played some doom, I can't sense any input lag even with a side by side comparison with the laptop screen and spastic mouse movements. Maybe because it stays analogue. I watched some videos of HDMI to CGA conversion that looked really damn laggy.
I don't think it would work and even if it would it would be worth going native anyway
these seem popular
So I finally got an 800 line PVM in the 20m4u...and I love it.
It was a bit of an impulse buy because nowadays when you see a pvm for ~100 you take it. But its so friggin big compared to the 14 inch. It is not a cute little desk set.
Kinda bummed. But maybe someday I could do a 20m4u trade for a 14m2u
CRT afficianados tend to understand the differences between video signals and sync rates, etc, and how all that shit works.
Therefore, I feel this is a great place to ask...
Exactly what data is transferred over the extra yellow composite pass-thru on the Namco GunCons, and what exactly goes on with that little adapter the manuals say I'd need to make it Component compatible?
I think the adapter is just a little extension that doesn't affect the signal at all but rather brings the video signal to the gun so it can determine where on the screen you're aiming at.
NES and SMS lightgun games blank the screen and put white boxes on each individual target, the game keeps checking if the lightsensor detects light while the CRT draws this frame/field.
SNES, C64, Amiga and some others have a certain pin on a specific controller port that can trigger the video chipset to remember the current line and pixel being output if it receives a impulse, the game can just readout the stored value after the frame/field has been drawn.
Now that what you have simply have needs the grab video signal externally to clock and sync it's own counters which can latched and read back by the console through the controller port because the consoles controller port and video chipset doesn't have the ability latch the current line and pixel being output like the above mentioned example.
>manuals say I'd need to make it Component compatible?
Different video connectors are sure a problem that can raise the production costs.
Composite and component uses RCA connectors, S-Video uses Mini-Din 4, and 15khz RGB+Composite uses SCART.
All these connectors still transfer the exact same Color-Video-Blanking-Sync (CVBS) signals with color portion being only available in composite.
What they probably meant is that you have to use either composite or component because they use the same connector, if you want to use S-Video or SCART RGB then a pass through adapter is needed for them which brings out the needed video signal via RCA connector so you can connect your gun to it.
Thanks for the info. Really. But
seemed to read my mind and go down the exact path I was thinking of. Once I learned the basics of how light guns worked I always wondered if I could just pop that same connector on the green (Y) cable of component.
Well, to be honest, I didn't know quite how component worked at the time, so I'd try each of the cables one by one to see which flashed when I pulled the trigger.
Yeah. Figured that's how it worked. Just didn't want to muddy up my initial question.
I currently have a PVM 2530, 14m2u, and just got the 20m4u.
I love the size of the 14m2u but wanted more "exaggerated" scanlines which lead to me seeking out an 800 TVL monitor. There is a guy who lives near me who repairs and sells these a whole bunch. I'd consider a straight trade of my 20m4u and 14m2u for a 14 inch BVM just so I could have my big dumb RGB monitor and my small sharp rgb monitor.
Sorry to post back to back but while checking out 14inch PVMs I found this video. I've been wanting to do some comfy streaming with a shot like this.
It looks so cozy, I could watch this all day.
You can't play games while you do work, but you can watch.
Relax bro, I play plenty.
I imagine that it is just lackluster video. Also I doubt F-Zero was the best game to since its a fast and kinda jittery game. A something more static or smoother might be easier to catch the crispness on, as that is a beautiful monitor.
For a photo still I agree, but get close up to Fzero it's quite twitchy and shaky during race action. There are plenty of bright crisp SNES games.
I understand that it's lame to not play games at all and just watch them. But I don't think that having a stream of a retro game in the background of working or doing errands is bad. It's no different than having ESPN or NPR on- just background noise.
It's not about "e-celebrities" just about catching a glimpse of a game you like and some background chatter.
Screw pewdiepie and the like
Fair enough about F-zero.
I only brought up the video because its a stream off of the CRT of choice round these parts, Sony PVM/BVMs and though others might be interested. I personally like the look. I'll leave the topic alone unless others comment.
No. Even though it has component out, the output resolution is going to be 1080p, which CRTs can't handle. Honestly I'd just get a DVD player and set it to 480i mode.
I've always had a theory that anime would be really sweet to watch in 240p. You could achieve this by using something like an Extron Emotia which will downscale to 15khz.
I've got a PVM-2730, PVM-D20L5A and a PVM-14M4A. I honestly hardly ever use the multisync functionality of the 20L5, and while it's cool to have if I ever need its its not a deal breaker for me. But it definitely is my favourite monitor just because of how sharp it is.
Nothing except scanlines, which might make the image a bit sharper if it was 480i, but I doubt it if it was meant to be displayed at a resolution of either 480p or HD. I dunno it'd just be a cool visual thing to do. While I reckon watching regular movies would look stupid as fuck with scanlines, watching anime with them would be cool.
Dont have any Anime DVDs, but would take requests for anything on Netflix.
Netflix on WiiU to Extron Emotia to PVM-2530
No promises on quality of picture/colors I havent configured it in a while.
I didnt feel like mentioning it to make it unnecessarily explanatory, but I've got component to vga converter to get the input into the Emotia.
I used to play Mario Kart 8 that way, looks great. Currently charging my gamepad for any requests that come.
Which one do you use? The Startech?
I've been thinking of getting one but not sure if I should get one of those or just save up for an XRGB-3, which will not only work as a pass-through and transcoder but also as an upscaler and line doubler.
I have a PVM 1944md to my left
to the right is my 27 inch LED TV from I think 2011.
Which one one would give me the best picture for a non modded Dreamcast? I would love to put it on my LED( it does have VGA inputs, 4 HDMI inputs, composite, and RF. also have a DVI-vga converter if need be....) because the only games I intend to play on it are fighting games like Capcom vs SNK or Marvel vs Capcom. the bigger screen would be nice.
if its the CRT or the LED what materials would I need?
chords/ cables? ( be specific)(brand?)
I'm currently using the Monoprice one. I've also used the "video converter" one (there is a picture on the front with a family on the couch watching the tv- kinda looks like an IKEA ad), and worked just as well.
What kind of monitor do you plan to use it on? The only reason I got it was the 2530 was the first PVM I ever saw so I bought it...I didnt know it was 240p and no Component inputs. This was the only way to get component inputs onto the 2530.
just watched a video looks easy enough hopefully my screen wont stretch the image too much.
jeesh I never thought of imaging hardware or software the same until I came to this board.
I have a ton of monitors haha. Like probably 6 or 7. A few PVMs, a BVM, and some computer CRTs. I just want to be able to feed component out consoles into the emotia so I can downscale them.
>I've always had a theory that anime would be really sweet to watch in 240p.
How so? Anime is nothing like sprite-based games that can make good use of scanlines to mask pixel edges, it's more like live action film or video where the additional image detail of higher resolutions is generally more visually impressive and preferable.
Had to take the yoke off my PVM-20L5 to remove a bad convergence strip (the adhesive came off the strip and attached to inside of the yoke), so I just spent the last couple days adjusting it to get convergence and color purity good again. Think I've nailed it at last.
Hope I never have to touch this thing again once I find a way to glue it back on. Anyone got suggestions? Don't have any caulk on me and wondering about cheap alternatives. If necessary I will go and get some caulk from a hardware store though.
Unless the LCD is 480 pixels in height I'd claim the PVM-1944MD will. I have a PVM-1944Q, which I believe is the non-medical version of your monitor, which was made in '89. Mine looks awesome on it. Looks better on my 20L5, though, because 480p.
But an LCD stretching a picture always looks like shit to me.
I disagree. 480p upscaled to 720p or 1080p will look better than playing the game at 480i. Have you remember that the PVM-1944MD is an SD set without 480p capability, so you're going to have flicker. I'd rather play on a set without flicker but upscaled.
My PVM has major distortion in the corners until it warms up.
It still has some distortion in the corners when the screen is an overwhelmingly bright color. If I turn the brightness all the way down it goes away.
Any ideas of the cause or do I just have to deal and turn the brightness down.
Sure, but only at the refresh rate. A 480i image will flicker more than a 480p one because the frames are interlaced. No shit, all CRTs fliker you sperglord. I'm just saying that a 480p image will be more stable than a 480i one.
CRTs just take time to warm now days. It's a combination of things, like old capacitors, perhaps dust getting on the circuit etc.
I'd say you should be looking to turn the brightness down anyway, since it'll make the tube last longer. If you want perfect brightness get up a SMPTE colour bar pattern and adjust brightness that way. Maybe even set your colour settings to 6500K too.
What is the largest size of professional CRTs?
I know that Consumer CRT TVs max out at 40".
I haven't been able to find pro CRTs more than 20"
Also I want to put large (at least as tall as the CRT) speakers next to it. Will the magnets inside these bork the display?
You can buy a 15-year-old CRT TV or monitor today for next to nothing and expect to use it longer than the original owner did. at full price. Nothing lasts forever but CRTs are neither delicate flowers nor timebombs.
>Nothing lasts forever but CRTs are neither delicate flowers nor timebombs.
Are you joking?
CRTs run hot and die early. Ya your definition of usable may bee different and you may get a long life out of a CRT. NO professional CRT is performing in spec these days.
>I haven't been able to find pro CRTs more than 20"
Technically, there's a 41-ish presentation monitor, but you're more likely to find it's newer, 37inch cousins.
NEC and Mitsubishi both have professional stuff offered in the 29'' and 37'' range. Sony has some older 4:3 stuff in 25'' and 30''; There's also the BVM-D32E1WU, but it is very expensive, not terribly common, and is liable to run into problems
Several of that specific monitor have come up for sale on ebay, and most of them have the same exact issue.
Mitsubishi Megaview 37 (XC-37**, where the ** are variations.)
To name a few
Pictured is a XC-3730, next to a 14'' and 20'' PVM.
Using the Wii's VGA GX emulator to play gameboy advance games on CRT feels just fine.
The Wii is truly a great console for emulation.
Give me that Mitsubishi, you meanie
I'm either using this or a gamecube controller
I hope you mean the GBAtemp fork. The older versions have terrible ass scaling.
It's always difficult to get more than one CRT to render properly, let alone all on the same plane. It's for that exact reason that the Megaview is angled and the 14'' is slightly further away than the 20''.
Sorta why I had the Genesis in front of it; More so the game, since the Model 3 isn't as terribly well known size-wise. Gimme a second and I'll see what I can do
for me, at least (NTSC country btw), 480i is quite bearable. 480p is better, I will agree. But I managed to live for years with 480i when CRT's were still the only real option. I'd not prefer shitty LCD scaling to a bit more flicker.
To clarify, the guy you replied to is wrong. The tube itself would not cause that bouncing. It could be a circuitry problem, but the tube itself aging only results in a slightly dimmer image over time.
Half-assed, but whatever.
Close up of the sprite is taken with the game the same distance from the screen and the camera the same distance from the game.
15MB unscaled version: https://a.pomf.cat/zzojjs.jpg
If the "bouncing" only lasts ~10 or so seconds after power on(it really all depends on what your definition of "warm up" is) that could very well just be the power on degauss cycle finishing up.
It wasn't easy at all and I don't recommend it unless you have no other options.
Take lots of pictures of the assembly before taking it apart - you might regret it later if you don't. Also take a look at a service manual if you can find one. Mine wasn't extremely helpful (neglected to mention that the two white dials on the yoke in the picture can effect convergence, which came in handy), but it did help me to disassemble the thing.
You have to get the yoke (the cone part closest to the front of the CRT) at just the right position on the neck of the tube, at just the right angle (centering it is haaard), and if you know what's good for you you won't do what I did and remove the rubber wedges if yours has them. Try twisting the yoke to get it off when you get to it, but you'll have to remove several other things including convergence rings first which will have to be rotated and positioned just right when you put it all back together. I spent at least 5 hours on it because I was incredibly thorough. Also, have a test DVD that can give you cross-hatch patterns and a solid white screen ready so you can test convergence and color purity. If the yoke is too far from the front of the tube, areas that should be red in the corner of the tube might be blue, and so on. If your apple monitor has RGB, use a white screen on a SNES or similar and only plug in the red channel to test red purity. Otherwise, the white screen can suffice.
Also, be sure you know what you're doing. It's not like servicing a PC - DO NOT use an antistatic mat or ground yourself in any way. Do not hold the chassis for example with your free hand while working. The flyback and several other parts in CRT's can kill you, including the tube itself if you stray close to the anode cap (suction cup on the back of the tube).
Progress image. Note that the neckboard is almost always socketed to ease in CRT replacement. Just be careful while handling the boards and don't ground the boards to the chassis accidentally or bad shit could happen.
In yellow, the little shit that caused my convergence issue. Convergence strips are helpful for fine tuning convergence at the corners of tubes after placing the yoke, but the adhesive came off this one while I was moving it around and it got stuck inside the yoke. This is why I took it apart.
aand an image of it partially back together. When I get new glue for the rubber feet that I foolishly removed, and I've put the metal clamps back on the moving parts on the tube neck, I will post a final pic.
I wasn't really going for color or picture accuracy, but you're not wrong on that front. There are two Trinitrons there, though.
The Megaview is in severe need of servicing, and seems to need to be run with termination off to get a nice bright picture; When you're chaining signals, this will cause anything earlier in the chain to get blown out. On top of this, having the brightness and/or contrast set too highly with termination on causes weird interference to crop up, which forces both of those down to get rid of it.
I also forgot to set my white balance back to the custom Color Temp setting, so it's quite possible those were all taken with different white balances.
Scaling from 480p is not that bad. The problem you get when scaling retro is that most consumer LCDs treat 240p as 480i, so it deinterlaces the picture when it really doesn't need to. Most consumer LCDs will properly treat 480p though so it really doesn't look crap. The flicker from 480i is fucking horrible. It's like a mini seizure on your screen. I can't honestly believe why anyone would choose an interlaced picture when, for perhaps a very very marginal decrease in quality you can have a stable picture.
>on CRT thread
>promoting LCD's that can't do most of what CRT's do
>not even suggesting PC CRT monitors when almost all of them if even slightly modern do 480p
I know about native resolutions. That's why you set your TV to 4:3 mode. Literally zero difference in aspect ration then playing on a 4:3 CRT. Yeah the image gets a bit of scaling but it's so much better than having interlaced flicker. A lot of guides online even say that 480p+, if you can't get a 480p monitor and cant afford an external scaler, just plug it in. It's not as detrimental as plugging in a 240p source.
Jesus Christ, if you had actually bothered to look back far enough you'd read that OP had TWO choices. Either plug his dreamcast into a 480i TV via SCART, or 480p into an LCD via VGA. NOWHERE does it say that he had a PC monitor. Obviously the best choice is to play Dreamcast on a 480p computer monitor but he doesn't have one. THE NEXT BEST ALTERNATIVE is to play on an LCD. Fucking hell..
Yes. There are a bunch of downscaling units called the Emotia line by manufacturer Extron. Read Fudoh's website for a list of downscalers (http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/)
4:3 mode will maintain the shape of the original output (well, not really. Dreamcast outputs in 720x480 but it's no different from a 4:3 CRT). Obviously scaling is involved but it's not that bad. Still much better than an interlaced image.
>Is there any kind of device that can take a 480p signal via component or whatever, then throw out every second line and output it as 240p?
That'd be awesome, but there's a problem with doing that. 480p has to draw lines about twice as quickly - two lines are drawn in 480p in the time that one is drawn in 480i. That's why if you try to display 480p on a CRT that doesn't support it you will get two frames next to each other. Dropping every other line from 480p would get you to 240p (or maybe 480i, that might depend on the TV), but you'd have an image taking up half the screen unless you did more processing to it and introduced lag or dropped even more information. it would be the same as the attached image but with only one side of it. It'd fill about half your screen's width.
It'd be easier and very doable to drop the odd field from a 480i image, instead drawing the even field a second time, bringing you to 240p.
The only CRT I have here does support 480p, but I faked a TV that does not by using 480p with composite video as sync (composite = 480i) from the DVD player.
> Obviously scaling is involved but it's not that bad. Still much better than an interlaced image.
You've never used a PC LCD at non-native resolution, have you?
Ahh. What I would give to be underage and naive.
for comparison, 480p on same TV. PVM-20L5.
Bit blurry? Sure? Better than using an interlaced image? Definitely. Interlaced should NEVER be used if it can be avoided.
Fudoh, who is pretty much a guru and knows more on this subject than you or I will ever consider knowing, seems to agree with me.
Thanks for the explanations.
I had a look at the deinterlacing/downscaler page but all the equipment described seem to only accept VGA input.
>It'd be easier and very doable to drop the odd field from a 480i image, instead drawing the even field a second time, bringing you to 240p.
Is there anything that can do this, but which accepts component?
>but which accepts component?
Sorry, I meant "which accepts component or RGB/SCART?".
I'm trying to get a system which ouputs 480i/480p exclusively to render on a PVM at 240p with scanlines.
Actually wait, I re-read the page just now and it looks like an Extron RGB interface can be made to deinterlace 480i to 240p by adding a line offset.
Apparently there's still some flicker with true 480i sources (rather than ports with line-doubling), but it has to be better than displaying raw 480i.
The author says even this flicker can be eliminated but you need a scan converter + VGA source so it's not really applicable.
Absolutely, plus scaling also introduces additional lag on top of LCD screen response time.
>Obviously scaling is involved but it's not that bad. Still much better than an interlaced image.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion but that's clearly subjective. Not everyone is a fan of scaling artifacts, especially with the non-integer scaling you encounter going from 480 to 1080 like anon mentioned.
I would be more careful of appealing to authority on subjective matters than this. Obviously Fudoh isn't the biggest fan of the typical scalers you'll find in most LCD TVs. His domain is high-end scaler hardware and most anything he mentions on the issue involves such equipment. As you emphatically mentioned elsewhere, the second of anon's two options is to plug a DC directly into the VGA into of a regular old LCD TV, leaving the deinterlacing and scaling stage to the TV itself. Many would prefer the lag-free and true-to-period results of RGB SCART into a 480i CRT to that.
Good thing that you didn't had a consumer Trinitron.
Removing or rotating the yoke is next to impossible, even if the clamp screw is completely loose.
These seem to have some sort of plastic hooks which I didn't dare to fuck up.
>(neglected to mention that the two white dials on the yoke in the picture can effect convergence, which came in handy)
I've wondered what these were for and figured that they would affect the magnetics in some way. I've got the same on a PVM-20M2MDE (though in a different position).
In what exact way did they change the convergence?
The 480p (and up) will usually be called "multiformat". If you're unsure can always just google the monitor and you should find a spec sheet. Actually do that even if you feel sure, it never hurts.
>this one guy agrees with me
I wonder why the engineers at RCA went with interlaced video when developing their TV system. Hm, it's because they knew they had a bandwidth problem at the time with slow devices but knew the tradeoff to be a good thing.
I understand fudoh doesn't like interlacing. Don't claim that he is the ultimate authority on all things video. He's not. He has tastes just like I do or you do. Would I prefer progressive scan at the same resolution? Yes. is it strictly necessary for me to not whine? No. I have a PVM-20L5 because it was free, not because I needed 480p to survive.
I agree with you. However, I wouldn't use the word SCART. It isn't strictly necessary to tie RGB to SCART... after all, the PVM's don't use SCART for their RGB inputs either. I don't have SCART at any point in my setup.
Sorry, nitpicking. Not very important.
>A list of 480p compatible monitors?
I'm only aware of the 14L5 and 20L5 monitors, and PC monitors.
Also, some rear-projection TV's and 'HD' CRT's, but I know many (most?) of those do digital upscaling on 240p/480i signals.
Not to often you see a CRT fanboy actually promote interlace flicker.
1) If you read my fucking posts, you'd see that I have said that I would prefer progressive. However, interlacing works on CRT's relatively well because it gives you twice the apparent resolution and uses less bandwidth. It beats the (comparatively) shit black levels and (objectively) poor scaling of analog content you get from an LCD.
>what exactly did the knobs do?
I used to have this problem with my CRT where on the left side of the screen only the blue gun was out of convergence. It was very visible with a cross-hatch pattern. Turning the knob labeled 'L' seemed to fix it. It borked the bottom right corner of the screen, but I fixed that with the other knob. A convergence strip might also have done the trick since it was a corner issue.
I watch anime some and prefer 480i to 240p because that extra bit of detail is nice and the amount of detail lost by cutting out half the image is pretty drastic. For comparison, you can get the same vertical resolution out of an iPod Classic (320x240). It only looks decent on the ipod because the screen is miniscule. I can imagine watching anime at 240p on a large screen, but the thick 'scan lines' would be worse than the flicker from 480i to me.
(pictured: from that pokemon episode that caused all those seizures in 1997. It's a still image, because I'm not that evil.)
>1) If you read my fucking posts, you'd see that I have said that I would prefer progressive. However, interlacing works on CRT's relatively well because it gives you twice the apparent resolution and uses less bandwidth. It beats the (comparatively) shit black levels and (objectively) poor scaling of analog content you get from an LCD.
Poor scaling? Deal with good scalers maybe.
CRT black levels are only good if you have no ambient light and image mostly black. CRTs have really REALLY poor contrast.
Poor scalers meaning the scaler in the TV. Not everyone blows money on scalers that cost more than TV's.
>blur comes from interlacing
flicker, yes. Did I not say repeatedly that I would prefer progressive? I simply do not DISlike interlacing. I am neutral on it. You are the one claiming I like something despite me proclaiming neutrality, and are for that and spending money on scalers instead of good gear a retard.
comparison: after convergence fixed
The way people were behaving in here earlier I was led to believe the flickering that results from a CRT displaying an interlaced signal is worse than the devil.
But really, the main reason I'm looking into this stuff is to play PS2 and 360 ports of CAVE shmups, which are upscaled to begin with; tossing out half the lines merely restores the image.
That said, while connecting up a 360 appears simple enough (since there's an official VGA cable) the PS2 is looking to be a major pain in the ass. Having pored over the system11 forum archives the past few hours, it seems I'll have to order a sync strike to go from RGBs to RGBHV.
From there I can either get an Extron interface for faux-240p or splash out for one of those Mimo Genius boxes. And this is going a bit off-topic now, but since I've got a Framemeister collecting dust I might sell that then opt for the latter.
Thanks for all your help guys. I'd still be clueless if not for your earlier advice.
>not growing up with a CRT in your house
>being this underage
I am serious. How old are you and why do you not remember CRT TV's? All broadcasts for a very, very long time were interlaced. I was born in '93 and I remember having a CRT as our primary TV in our house until at least 2006. My parents still have another CRT in their basement. I feel like you must be 13 or something. Please explain yourself because I want to be wrong and not feel old. -_-
>scalers are bad but not the good scalers
CRT fanboys are funny when they're in a corner faced with evidence and facts.
Are you 15 or just this much a of fanboy? Interlaced is a shitload of blur. That's how it works.
You keep mentioning progressive. Only 1 mainstream console can even use a PC CRT monitor without a transcoder or line doubler.
And don;t mention HD CRTs because then your argument of scaling and lag goes right the fuck out the door.
>Interlaced is a shitload of blur. That's how it works.
Only minor vertical blur as a side effect of the flicker (the vertical flicker counteracting the anti-sample-and-hold blur effect of the refresh rate flicker).
I'm actually older than you (born in '92), but it's been more than 10 years since I've used a consumer CRT TV with any frequency so I've pretty much forgotten what sort of quality to expect from interlacing.
I got a BVM-D20F1A (A for Australia!) about a month ago without a controller, which I ordered online and it showed up a couple of days ago. It's a beautiful set, but I have noticed there is some visible interference or sort of subtle movement over the top of the display. I can't quite articulate it, but I'll take some photos when I wake up.
I have caps on the BNC output plugs, tried component and RGB, multiple systems, swapping the input cards into different slots, and it all suffers from the same issue.
It's frustrating because it's small problem, but it's consistently there. Rarely after 30 minutes or so it will "warm up" and the interference (for lack of a better word) will be reduced or almost gone. Does anyone have any idea what the issue could be? I'm preparing to take it to a Sony Broadcast technician next week otherwise.
The fact is you shouldn't have to buy a TV and then buy another piece of expensive-ass equipment because the TV manufacturer couldn't do it's job right.
How's that fact for you? Now why don't you go back to /v/ and fuck off of /vr/?
>You keep mentioning progressive. Only 1 mainstream console can even use a PC CRT monitor without a transcoder or line doubler.
1) Gamecube with a mod to the component cable (jumping two pins) can output VGA.
2) xbox 360
I'm sorry, I believe that is 2. Or is the Gamecube not mainstream enough?
Yes, I know you're going to reply that the gamecube component cable costs as much as a scaler. That is correct. However, you wanted VGA on mainstream consoles, I gave you VGA on mainstream consoles. You ignore the fact that YPbPr can do progressive scan as well.
If you know how to do voltage multiplication with transistors you can make a YPbPr to RGB converter for under $30 without any actual digital processing taking place.
Some quick googling shows me that (yes, with essentailly instantaneous transcoding, so before you think you're clever and that I ignored your post, I am aware you said 'without transcoding') YPbPr can be converted to RGBHV (VGA) for about $12 with a LMH1251 IC.
Additionally, my CRT that you seem to hate so much can handle YPbPr AND RGB. So for me it's a non-issue.
A good TV will handle 480p no problem. It's 480i and 240p that's an issue.
>1) Gamecube with a mod to the component cable (jumping two pins) can output VGA.
2) xbox 360
Never played any 7th gen consoles. I guess there is a vga cable for it.
I was talking about DC as the 1 console.
>Additionally, my CRT that you seem to hate so much can handle YPbPr AND RGB. So for me it's a non-issue.
I don't hate CRTs. I just understand their limitations.
You don't mod the console. You mod the cable :)
If your point is that you are buying $200 scalers because you can't bridge a wire, then I understand 'the point' that you are claiming I was missing.
>If your point is that you are buying $200 scalers because you can't bridge a wire, then I understand 'the point' that you are claiming I was missing.
Closer to $300. Wouldn't do anything for Gamecube though. Any good LCD will handle 480p as well since good LCDs will have an excellent scaling engine for that.
>Interlacing is indeed horrid.
This always seem to be rather a personal preference.
It does look good to me unless it was originally non-interlaced, or the CRT isn't properly adjusted.
I have my experience with video amplifier and RGB->YUV circuits.
>If you know how to do voltage multiplication with transistors you can make a YPbPr to RGB converter
A few transistors always make a lousy video amplifier, no matter how high the transition frequency is because it's more important to keep the phase unchanged than being able to amplify 250Mhz signals.
>for under $30 without any actual digital processing taking place.
I recently revised my homemade adapter to have a better RGB preamplifier stage based on the same high quality OpAmps which do the the transcoding instead of push-pull transistor circuits, so there is a total 6x AD810 now used where each did cost me about 4,30€, now today these cost 5,25€ each.
>YPbPr can be converted to RGBHV (VGA) for about $12 with a LMH1251 IC.
Be careful about the DC bias, YPbPr is AC coupled by default and the RGB of VGA has a fixed black level of 0V.
A clamp (DC restoration) will be needed to get this working.
>You can mod a lot of consoles to use vga
This is the most stupid thing I heard in this month.
Which consoles aside from N64 and Dreamcast (and expandable Amigas) can be modded to output 31khz RGBHV?
What is true is that plenty of consoles can be modded to output 15khz RGB, which can be of course line doubled by the means of an external device to produce 31khz which has absolutely nothing to do with console modding.
This works well with video showing real life people or 3D graphics but cartoons and 2D graphics don't look great at all.
Yeah, you seem to know which transistors are good and which aren't.
Suggest me some along with the circuits which can keep the errors of phase under 0.04° and gain under 0.02% till 30Mhz.
Also bipolar transistors are current based while OpAmps are voltage based with an input resistance of several megaohms.
Yes, the clamp I implemented is based on the CMOS 4053 and 100nF capacitors which shorts the signal after the capacitor to ground during the time when the Sync signal is low.
If you have specifications that specific, I'd recommend just using a ADC, a CPLD to do the multiplication, and a DAC to create analog signals again, because I don't have a clue how you can expect less than 0.04°.
I can't imagine living in a place that only has enough room for a shoebox. In fact, I'm going to call it straight up impossible to not have room for a 20" monitor. I put my 20" on top of my dresser.
>This works well with video showing real life people or 3D graphics but cartoons and 2D graphics don't look great at all.
Test suites and realworld examples show otherwise. At least for Sony TVs.
It took me while to reclaim my sides after reading your post.
None of these 3 components you mentioned can be considered as a transistor but they do consist of many many transistors along with some passive components and so do OpAmps.
Getting one in a solderable package that is fast enough to digitize a analogue video isn't easy and a general purpose ADC isn't fast enough to do this.
Also video ADCs require a clock signal which should be in phase with the Hsync or else pixels can get jittery, it also needs at least to be twice as high as the wanted frequency (Shannon theorem).
Also a lowpass filter to avoid aliasing (sampling of HF noise) should be used as well.
>CPLD to do the multiplication
With integer numbers which causes a small loss of color depth and they need to be programmed (like via JTAG), also dealing with the PC software to create a netlist can be another problem.
That is a really good idea anon.
Why not add fast sequential memory which can store a whole scanline and read it out twice as fast for the purpose of line doubling?
This is indeed the spirit.
Making one of a R2R ladder isn't hard but can problematic to implement as resistors can be off their rated value.
Using a monolithic DAC will work better but usually needs a buffer amp to drive a 75 ohms input.
>I don't have a clue how you can expect less than 0.04°.
I was curious if you have any clue how to accomplish this aside from using OpAmps designed for video signals and these have differential inputs to make the transcoding as simple as summing the RGB signals together in a specific way so that the OpAmps will end up outputting YUV.
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with that suggestion, I originally asked if you know transistors along with some circuits that can beat the performance of "expensive" video OpAmps which usually advertise these ultra low phase and gain error numbers.
For me, Sony stopped being very good since the mid 90s.
I spend 90% of my time at home in my bedroom.
Have a 25in PVM ontop of a typical 3 drawer Walmart dresser.
Currently have a 20in PVM on one of my side by side, cheapo Ikea sliding keyboard tray computer desks. The 20 feels a bit big but its managable, the 14 incher I had there was perfect.
Meh, live with roommates that arent friends. Only to keep rent cheap.
Its better than living with your parents. I got the walmart dresser in undergrad and it just works. Its for function not fashion. I'll worry about style when I'm in a place I consider a long term "home"
>Finally get some cash, decide to get a cheap little CRT to tide me over until I can get the space for a nice large one
>Google up some pawn shops and thrift stores
>"We don't accept/buy those anymore, and we have none in stock."
>Go on ebay/amazon
>$100+ or Local Pick-up Only(2000 miles away)
>Go on craigslist
>See ONE single CRT being advertised
>"Busy now, call back at X:00PM"
>Call back at X:00PM
>They disconnect while ringing
>Phone is off now
So, where the fuck do I FIND all these free CRT's everyone talks about?
Yeah most people seriously just throw them out now rather than give them to people who want them. Maybe try calling up a CRT recycling place or something. But I agree, it's harder to find CRTs now not because nobody has them, but rather they'd throw them out before they bothered putting up a listing.
On the plus side, an hour after I posted that some guy posted an ad for his 32inch Sanyo w/remote for $20, which isn't too bad. I ended up going with that. Has composite and s-video hookups which was what I was looking for.
Sadly though, it seems >>2782701 is right, the era of the free CRT has come to an end. Better grab CRT's now while they can still be found.
Its easier that way. Even though I am a CRTfag, I threw away a 13 toshiba crt. I woulda tried harder to give it away but it was RF only so I didn't really care.
I also have a 13 inch Dynex CRT with composite and mono audio only that I need to get rid of. I'm going to TRY not to throw it out but it really isnt quality I doubt anyone would want it and my local thrift store just closed.
I got my current CRT from a relative, however without a doubt i see the most CRT's on garbage day, just outside peoples houses. Seriously, if you want a different CRT take a drive around your neighborhood next garbage day and see what comes up.
It'd be really nice if it had S-Video. Still, composite doesn't look too bad on it.
Found this one the other day NIB
Broke its cherry on my DOSBOX machine
I haven't had a new CRT in like 15 years now
Only 1024x768 max, but XGA's the limit for the vast majority of DOS titles
Which one should I play?
Here's the box
Still impressed Goodwill had it for lmaotenbux, styrofoam and everything
I had to snap the stand on the bottom too
I miss unboxing and setting up nice new CRT monitors and desktops for the employees at my old job. Positioning them, calibrating them for geometry and color and also for the user's preferred resolution/DPI settings based on their work and eyesight requirements, recommending chair replacements or foot rests or monitor stands to supervisors based on the ergonomic needs of the users (height and position relative to screen desk and screen height) and being treated like a hero for it.
Last NIB CRT purchase for me was in 2008. Watching hockey on that TV right now.
The expected response, thanks. It explains your opinion.
Thanks for not telling me how I'm wrong or helping me to learn either. Nope instead you're just going to be a conceited cunt who thinks he knows everything. I have used composite on both my consumer trinitron and my PVM and I can say without doubt it looks a lot better on the PVM.
Indiana, USA. Got a free PVM-20L5 earlier this year. The era is not over (though places like goodwill not accepting them is certainly not good). Just gotta ask the right people.
Check electronics recyclers too.
explain again what the hell you were doing with this and what your goal was
like, all the hardware involved and what you were even trying to display
Just picked up a small TV. Tried it out with my PS1 and I noticed a lot of waviness on stuff like text.
Now. I think it's down to either the TV, the cables, or due to PAL/NTCS differences.
Which one do you think is most likely?
Half credit for the mention, as this is where the other guy tripped.
But the part you got wrong is that some PVMs are known to have very simple comb filters, with some models lacking a comb filter altogether. Remember what BVMs and PVMs were made for: accurate reproduction of the source signal for production/mastering/broadcast purposes. They were not end user/consumer displays that were designed to beautify and overprocess the signal for maximum joy. It's that simplicity and accuracy to the source material that makes them great for games.
S-video reduces it, I think component video almost completely eliminates it
Better TV and different console can also help because more sophisticated, higher-quality circuitry can improve the encoding and separation of the chroma and luma channels.
Kinda forgot about the component part when researching S-video. Think one of these would work?
Interesting. I have one PVM (14-L2) where I have the option between NTSC and NTSC comb for NTSC signals. Generally I prefer without, but I get more sharpness with, so it depends on the game. With I tend to get *more* dot crawl, though. Also it sort of trips and does wierd stuff for some 240p signals, it really seems to perform better on regular old 480i signals.
>Literally took it up from the "working tech we don't want so grab if you want" section a waste disposal site today.
Your waste disposal site has an area where they allow you to grab stuff? That's neat, here you have to do it quickly when nobody's looking... Many times the electronics stuff will even be indoors in a small hut so it's even more difficult to grab something.
Yeah. Not been there in a while but I used to do the shady quick grab(their electronics section was always out in the open). But now they put a up sign saying you could take stuff from it.
Funnily enough I was there dumping one of my really old CRT's that stopped working.
Yeah sorry. Didn't know the PS1 could do RGB. So I thought S-video or composite was the only choice. I'm thinking something like >>2783607 might be the most elegant solution. And it's only a few bucks so even if it doesn't work it's alright.
User manual for that TV doesn't specify what signals it can take on the SCART input but based on the type of TV it is, I wouldn't expect that it does anything better than composite. Using a PS1 S-video cable with SCART adapter probably wouldn't produce any image on it.
Can't improve the image on the display side without modding the TV, I'm afraid. All you can do is try to improve the quality of the source signal somehow (shielded cable, amplify the signal if it's weak, etc).
Yeah, basic comb filters work by analyzing adjacent horizontal lines so you can see where problems could arise with common 240p.
He gave the TV model number. It's a small low-end TV with one composite/mono audio input on the front and one SCART input on the back. Chances are good it only takes composite on the SCART, but they could have done something irrational and built it to take something nicer.
Putting the luminance signal on the composite input and chrominance signal on the red input has nothing to do with converting, it depends if the TV can support it.
>(remember that SCART can do all three of composite, s-video and RGB)
No, either Composite+RGB or Composite+S-Video.
If anons TV has only one SCART socket then it's very likely that it can take only RGB.
On a TV with 2 SCART socket the 2nd one can do S-Video but it must be enabled manually.
Most countries I know of consider trash to be the property of the trasher/state/whatever so when it's trashed and you're dumpster diving you're technically stealing...
Hasn't stopped me to pick some stuff up, when I go throw stuff away.