This thread is for all things related to traditional or manic, horizontal or vertical shooting games- shmups.
>your favorite shooters?
>your recent procurements?
>your latest accomplishments?
New to the genre of shmups? Check out these helpful pages:
Video resources that explain superplay recordings:
Play Twinkle Star Sprites (a versus shmup/puzzler) online with a bro:
Decide the greatest shmup developer:
List of the hardest clears, ranked in order of difficulty:
In the news: CAVE's Mushihime-sama is coming to Steam in 2 days.
Anyone ever used any game of the series? Are they any good? Can I even use them without knowing Japanese?
Why the hell are the western WR so pathetic and what the fuck does ALTERNATE A+4 C+2 even mean?
It means that they used an autofire macro that alternates firing rate in a complex way or with multiple buttons, instead of just a simple autofire that fires every n frames. A+4/C+2 would be referring to the specific autofire timings and settings, I guess.
Japan is a more obsession tolerant culture in some ways. Most westerners simply don't have the time or insanity to devote to mastering a game at that level.
The guy who thinks he's hardcore because he practices for three hours after work every day is laughed at by the crazy guy in Tokyo living in a shoebox playing it 19 hours a day and dreaming about it the other 4.
>that's weird considering it's Futari the game that had the weird rhythmic tapping score system thing.
Barely 20 posts in to an stg thread and the misinformation begins already, no futari didn't have weird tapping.
TBF that mushi original score is close and both are no miss as for the other 2 it's simply that no westerner went full shmup with those titles yet..... look at futari however and you'l see westerner Gus got the counterstop so it depends on the game.
>no futari didn't have weird tapping.
I meant the green/blue counter thing. You cash in by killing things with the autoshot when the counter is green and with the laser when it's blue.
It's the cancer which gave the genre the final blow. Memorizers like R-Type or Gradius were the shit. They were perfect for playing for survival and kept the casuals away.
Now all we have left is creditfeeders and some autistic score-whores.
Of course there is. In Memorizers you get heavily punished for dying (lose all power-ups, get send back to checkpoints), meaning you basically have to play through the game in 1 life. This is perfect for playing for survival and keeps casuals away.
In danmaku you do not get punished and you also don't have checkpoints. Meaning even casuals can enjoy them and ruin the genre with their shit taste. Their focus is too much on score, rather than survival. So instead of painstakingly orchestrated levels, they just throw a bunch of shit at you.
I seriously hope you guys are supporting the advancement of the genre by only playing post-danmaku STDs and not CAVE's cancer-ridden rehashes.
Only edgy hipsters think Ikaruga is a shit game. At least that game has some level design.
Of course you can play for survival in danmaku, but it's not a requirement. You also can easily lose 6 lives and still get a good score.
That's complete bullshit. Some danmaku games can get pretty hard so losing 6 lives is nothing there, just like they shit out extends at every level.
That's the problem with these games. They just throw a bunch of shit at you without any thought behind it.
>For example, if the player has 4 child counters with a value of 500 each, each tap of the C button will add 2,000 to the parent counter, causing it to skyrocket to outrageous amounts. Be forewarned, "counter banking" or "counter skyrocketing" causes the value of the child counter to rapidly decrease. In this way, there is a constant risk vs. reward system for scoring, as a player needs to keep enemies on screen to prevent the hit counter from decreasing, while also quickly dispatching enemies as they appear to have the largest amount of scoring gems appear. The key to achieving high scores in these modes is to always be increasing the score counter whenever possible, and maintaining its level. To achieve this, players must learn when and where to tap the shot or auto fire buttons anywhere from 2 to 7+ times a second to effectively maintain a high score counter throughout a stage to either be increasing or not decreasing the score counter. One final note on the scoring in Mushihime-sama and, Cave games in general, is that most of the player's score will come from the final stage, or even the final boss.
So essentially what this all means is weaken enemies with the laser, then kill it with the C shot. That's what the C+2 A+4 means, that person used a macro.
If you hold the autofire down you'll kill the thing off before the multiplier cashed in (rolled down) completely. By tapping you delay finishing them off until the points are done counting.
I tell you hwat. Shump with no walls I can touch is like cousin I don't want to touch.
>where playing for survival can put you to sleep, but playing it for score makes your mind blown.
Jesus christ stop making shit up all the top ikaruga players commonly express how much they dislike the game, get over it it's shit, all show no go.
>Only edgy hipsters think Ikaruga is a shit game. At least that game has some level design.
Edgy hipsters and pretty much everyone who actually plays shmups past baby level.
What's your favorite game in the Raiden series? I was just playing the first one.
hey guys im looking for this one shoo ting game where a bunch of pink bullets were shat out all over the screen, there were no level hazards whatsoever, the enemies are strewn about randomly, and there's a "deep" scoring system to distract me from the actual game being a shitty rehashed mess. any ideas?
>you're right I don't play them for score.
Then why try talking on the subject? In future admit your ignorance and try asking instead of spreading misinformation. Ok so in futari original and ultra it's basically that spread shot (c or tapping a if you prefer rsi) will get you large gems from enemies if the counter is 500 or less so 0-500,1000-1500,2000-2500 etc and focus shot will get you large gems otherwise 500-1000,1500-2000,2500-3000 etc. If you kill enemies with the wrong shot they will only produce little gems which add to the multiplier (bottom number) and not the top.
>the community is horrible
I agree but fuck am i not playing something I enjoy just because others who enjoy them to happen to generally be annoying uptight emotionally underdeveloped sperg cunts with no people skills.
>What's your favorite game in the Raiden series? I was just playing the first one.
Tried many times to get into them and just can't.. to me toaplan,psikyo, and nmk did a much better job with that formula as did the raiden fighters series.
>I'd just consider Raiden Fighters to be part of the same series
It isn't though it's a separate side series infact the original title was gun dogs and was changed to raiden fighters presumably thinking relation to the original would make it more appealing.
I've never encountered such a short sighter ass clown in stgs community ever. So basically you could only learn to play r-type and decided everything else is shit because you're a cynical old cunt with no skill or perseverance? ok we get it.
Space ship in space instead of cavern? Made only by enemy designer? Critical flaw I must say.
Vertical shmups lack level design because of the 'flying ship' meme endemic to the genre. If the gameplay breaks convention by taking place on the ground like in Guwange or Last Duel it will have level design.
>You also can easily lose 6 lives and still get a good score.
Oh wow you're totally right "i died 6 times in ketsui didn't qualify for the loops and still got a great score!" said no one ever. Every cave game ever has massive end game bonuses for no deaths.
>I think it's still Ikaruga hate guy who's so pissed that not everyone dispises it as much as he does so now he just shits up any Shmup thread that pops up.
No trolls but nearly all good players do dislike ikaruga when it comes to playing at a good level, go ask the japanese,chinese or western top players and see what they say. Ikaruga is great at one thing, appealing to casuals due to a basic as fuck to understand gimmick and some apparently decent presentation.
Yeah bro, you know what isn't boring? Teh epic purple bullets of dewm on top of a picture! Thumbs up if you love playing the same game over and over with the only differences being the scoring system.
It's much less boring than Ikaruga, the environments of which are exclusively made up of "generic monochromatic military base". It also somehow manages to make the action feel more detached from the backgrounds than most bullet hell games despite having environmental hazards, which is quite the feat.
Why bully Ikaruga when you could be appreciating the greatest shmup ever made instead?
The scoring system is boring (but better than RSG's) and the enemy patterns are vapid and the stages are ugly brown and bloom before Gears of War popularized it and the bosses stop looking cool after stage 1 and the ship is too overpowered with the whole bullet absorption gimmick.
Don't you worry. Horis are alive and well.
>Seemed like an alright game with high production value aesthetics and soundtrack to me.
The answer is right there... unskilled players don't know shit beyond looks and sound, try actually playing i mean really sitting down and working on full stage chains then come back and see how you feel.
You know the shmups community is dire when the shittest shit cunt of all communities neogaf starts featuring posts that they won't visit shmups forum because it's to toxic lel. We suck you guys.
>Why do danmaku scum always make me want to tip my fedora?
I love how you assume i'm danmaku scum when in reality i'm a fan of the genre and everything in it from horis and verts old and new.
Behave yourself mate i've been playing exclusively shmups for close to ten years and am not one to jump games before reaching a more than competent level. Don't try that troll antagonize angle, that's my job you cheesy gape ;).
What does /stg/ think of Super SWIV / Firepower 2000?
Was it good or was it simply Squarebabby's first shmup?
>try actually playing i mean really sitting down and working on full stage chains then come back and see how you feel.
So don't do that? It's very versatile for a shooter so there's bound to be a playstyle you'd like more.
I beat my first shmup recently, Axelay.
I didnt find it that difficult. There is here in /vr/ a poster who always shows up to say only shmups are difficult in threads about hard games, but Axelay seemed much easier to me than Super Ghouls n Ghosts for example, anyway, I enjoyed it a lot.
Recommend me some other shmup for Genesis or SNES.
My only condition is that it is excellent and has excellent music.
I downloaded covers of the tracks of the first three stages of Axelay because I ended up liking them so much, really good music.
Best character? I don't really like playing as anyone, robot guy seems most powerful.
The Amiga version was some goodass shit. Like, competent gameplay and lack of overly bulletspongey enemies.
People are too hard on Eurofag shit in general - it's like you don't even Apidya. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL35iG7Q8vk
Hybris was also some goodass shit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBStOhiIzA
Project X was okay. Not as tight a Gradius clone as Apidya and not much originality at all but it was decent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjq-ONi3dZE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZlITRk0T2w Shit, even the ZX Spectrum got some quality. Awful sound, but actual scrolling! Not even the MSX's chuggy Gradius games got that.
My absolute favorite Schmup is Space Megaforce/super Alleste. Everything in that game is so satirfying, music, graphics, soundtrack, and the weapons, 2 most favorites being circle and laser, and missiles are good as well. Hell, every weapon is good.
R-type series in general is my other go to, Final being my favorite.
Well, you think what you want, but Touhou is basically what opened the whole STG/SHMUP genre for me, and bullet hells in particular.
I like me some Cave, btw. Favourite is Dodonpachi.
You are correct that I'm not very good at it, but hey I have fun playing.
Of course some will make the jump to other bullet hell games, but most people still play touhou because of the waifu shit in it and around it. They would probably also play these games if they were rythm games or puzzle games, as long as they have the waifus in it.
It's not just the speed of the bullets, it's the pacing of the patterns. Touhou actually announces each pattern and gives you a few seconds to prepare before it starts. Cave games only give you a break before/after (mini)bosses.
They already have. You can go horizontal, vertical, play for score, and play for survival.
Neon Light Illusion was the most psychedelic boss in that game.
I only wish the home ports could've had the per-scanline luminosity trick that the arcade hardware had. The background behind that boss looked 10x better in the real hardware because of that - and not even MAME gets the effect done.
WE ARE LIVE
THIS IS NOT A DRILL
WE ARE LIVE
THIS IS NOT A DRILL
Exactly, that's also why the term is distorted.
Usually it means games which force you to memorize in order to play through them, like R-Type or Gradius, because they punish you so heavily when dying.
Danmaku babbies made it sound like R-type is just a memorizer though because it would need more memorization than other games, which is not true.
This would all be solved if shmups had regenerating health.
Absolute shit, 0/10
Nah, Gradius 5 is great, but the music and environments aren't as good as previous Gradius games. Gaiden is my favorite.
>No resolution options in fullscreen
Refunded. At least you tried.
Honestly, I expected better given Degica's recent releases having proper settings. Sasuga japanese PC releases.
I like Thunder Force 4, Gate of Thunder, and Winds of Thunder.
I don't like Thunder Force 3 because all the bosses die in 2 seconds even on the hardest difficulty.
I also like R-Type 1 but hate all the sequels.
As you can see I like horizontal shmups that have background obstacles and variety in the levels.
The only high quality vertical shmup that I know of that is similar is Super Aleste. It's good. Very good.
As for other Compile shmups: Musha Aleste is mediocre. I refuse to play Spriggan 1 for the PCE because your ship looks so goofy. Yes, I am that shallow. Tried a bit of Sylphia. Pretty good but can't remember if it had background obstacles or not.
Thanks for reading.
Oh, I also like Toaplan classic shmups like Twin Cobra, Flying Shark, and others like Raiden. But only with autofire.
All the Darius games are fantastic provided you ignore the crappy ports the first two games had.
This includes Twin.
HG101 parroters gonna parrot.
I'm kind of new to shmups in the sense that I would play them in arcades but never really played them at home or cared for them. I've been playing Crimzon Clover lately and love Mushihimesama. What Saturn shmups should I get along those lines?
And that's your angle? some bizarre unrelated ad hominem to distract from the reality of what i said, thet you're just a shit player and a nostalgia horse galloping along with those blinkers firmly fitted for every other type of stg.
but I'm not the other anon you were talking to, anon. I'm your imaginary friend.
psst, you should jump out the window, I've heard if you do, you can become a danmaku god and beat even the japanese players!
Thanks bros. I have Twinkle Star Sprites too, it was an old arcade fav of mine.
Are there any NES vertical shmups that are highly regarded by this thread? My experience growing up with the NES were the psuedo-not-really-shmups like Ikari Warriors or Guerilla War, that required you to move around for the camera to move.
I enjoy Crisis Force, Recca and Sky Shark but overall the verts on NES aren't all that good. There's also games like Legendary Wings and Dragon Spirit that people seem to like but I never got into.
Shitflinging aside the only thing anyone's said that he could be referring to is that bullet hell don't have level design, and that's not calling them shit. Bullet hells don't usually have much in the way of level design. It's true and if you're an intellectually honest and aware bullet hell fan you should have no trouble acknowledging that fact because it's part of the flavor that draws you to that style.
tl;dr butthurt faggot
You'd think /vr/ would love Silvergun, since it's basically R-Type flipped on its side with a fun scoring system and lots of cool bosses.
What /vr/ doesn't seem to understand is that bullets give better level design than static wall boxes. There's a reason those types of shmups like Gradius and R-Type died off: nobody cares about weaving through boring static levels when you could be dodging complex swathes of bullets instead.
You are acting like Bullet Hell didn't die off too... Have fun with your Touhou 36.
Bullet Hell was just the last desperate attempt to make some money with this genre, because it is cheaper to create some interesting gameplay by just spawning bullets instead of creating well orchestrated level design.
It's pretty obvious, that only having to code bullet spirals is a lot easier and cheaper to do, than designing, modelling and coding all kinds of environmental hazards and obstacles.
Just look at Mushihimesama... The whole game basically just consists of pink bullet spirals, enemies with some pretty background slapped on it.
Now compare this to Gradius 5 where you have all kinds of things, from meteroids flying at you, to poison gas killing you in a rotating corridor, to all kinds of bullet styles and enemies... It's way more complex and diversified.
Art aside, for an environmental hazard all you have to do is create a hitbox and make it move in a direction constantly. You can literally do this in minutes in any of the popular game engines. Making the average bullet spiral is far more time consuming and difficult because you have to fuck around with timers and other shit.
The mathematical algorithms that go into creating bullet patterns in danmaku are far more laborious than copypasting hitboxes throughout a level and slapping some spritework over them, you dingus.
All kinds of coding... Take the blue laser in R-Type for example. It was a pain for the devs to code the way the laser reflects on the surfaces. In bullet hells you would never have these problems, since the games just consist of bullet patterns and some background graphic.
So now you're not talking about level design? Convenient. You do realize that vertical shooters and bullet hell games have plenty of pain-in-the-ass projectiles as well? Rayforce-style bendy lasers being an obvious one.
Environmental hazards are more than just creating a wall and putting some hitbox on it you retard. Take the exploding suns from the beginning of Gradius 5 for example. This all took its own coding, assets and animations.
I know what you're talking about, it's just that it's irrelevant to the levels and the way they're designed. I'm sure there's at least one bullet hell which had projectiles that bounce around the screen pong/break out-style anyway.
What's the appeal of this? Over half of the game can be beaten by just getting the shot that tracks your enemies and staying in place. Then when the game actually does give you challenge it mostly comes in the form of really tanky enemies and you've got so many extra lives at that point that mistakes don't even matter.
>what the anon defines as "level design", which are environmental hazards
Wrong, level design is everything in the level. Don't assume everyone is as simple-minded as you and thinks level design is ONE THING.
>Except they have absolutely no effect on [...] environmental hazards
Wrong, environmental hazards can be movable and destructable.
>The only thing they meaningfully interract with are the enemies.
I'm not surprised your danmaku loving ass doesn't understand basic fundamental truths so here we go. In shmups with level design, the enemies interact with the level. They go around things, they hide behind things. The player also interacts with the level in a similar way such that the avenues of attacking, defending and dodging are woven into where you are in the level. The bouncing laser in R-Type meaningfully interacts with all of these elements because it opens new avenues of attack by bouncing off walls into areas that you otherwise couldn't reach without crashing into something. These subtleties can never be created with bullets.
>Wrong, level design is everything in the level
That's my entire point, you dimwitted cunt. The way enemies move around the level is just as much of a part of level design as environmental hazards are.
Now you're just being dense. It's just as much a part but if it's the only part that shows up in a game then that game lacks level design. If your hamburger lacks everything but tomato then it lacks hamburger design. This has even been said at least once before, I know because I was the one who said it. Sick way to dodge a thoughtful post with a terrible non-sequitur thought terminating cliche though.
>if it's the only part that shows up in a game then that game lacks level design
Except it ISN'T the only part that shows up in the games, you utter twat? You could argue that the level design is less complex/deep, but that would be an entirely different argument.
>You could argue that the level design is less complex/deep, but that would be an entirely different argument.
No it wouldn't, that's exactly what we've been discussing for several threads.
"The games have no level design" and "this game's level design is boring" are two completely different statements. The former being something a fucking retard would say, the latter being something that could actually be argued and defended.
By saying that they're poorly designed, you're saying that while it was intentionally designed, that design does not work well. By saying that they have no level design, you're implying that there was no intentional design in the first place. Do you honestly not see the difference between those two statements?
Maybe. I wouldn't know because nobody has called anything boring but that other guy making hypothetical statements as examples.
If you refuse to design you still have made a design. It creates an absurdity where it's not wrong to say that there's level design or that there's not level design.
No it's not insane, you just haven't understood the absurdity. A designer said 'no fuck this I'm not going to design a level, here's a shitload of bullets' (I'm paraphrasing). That was his design.
I have no idea why I'm wasting my time trying to explain to you what should be obvious to anyone with even the slightest experience in designing or even thinking about designing levels
If 4-5 people saying the same things to each other for hundreds of posts is the fuel for these threads, the threads should be moved to /vg/ where they'll still be the best on the board.
Thoughts on the Ray series? Pic related is one of my all time favorites, but I never got around to playing Storm or Crisis.
played cotton for the first time tonite, and it's great. is it just me or did that imperishable nite guy basically rip off everything abot cotton for his touhou little girl shit? :D
RayStorm's more of the same which is great because RayForce is amazing. The stages aren't as memorable and the music's less catchy, but the gameplay is still just as tight and the bosses are awesome.
RayForce is easily my favorite shmup of all. Rock solid stage design and 11/10 quality presentation.
RayStorm is pretty nifty. Didn't like it too much before (especially next to RayForce), but something seems to have clicked with me about it, it's pretty damn good.
RayCrisis has yet to click with me, but I love its style.
the encroachment system is weird as fuck
>high school side
The rabbit hole goes even deeper than that. Most Touhou games are just crappy clones of CAVE+Taito, with shit scoring systems that force you to graze bullets until a timer runs out. Not to mention the horrible art/graphics and cacophony music.
Not sure how anyone can like that tripe.
Glad i didn't buy the steam release of mushi, the game is kind of shit desu. Why does cave have such retarded design like "hey lets make an old school mode with super fast bullets then litter it with annoying slowdown everywhere" and completely ruin the point of fast bullets in the first place, annoying as fuck. It's been all down hill for cave since ketsui and ibara which were the peaks of awesomeness.
Alright, cleared arrange. Had 1 extend surplus, which just slightly pushed me past my previous score.
Well, time for ultra.
Same for me. Touhou 7 has been my gateway to shmups. I never cared about the waifus but I liked the patterns and music.Then I moved on to Dodonpachi and Mars Matrix. I also play horis like Gradius and Darius. Why do horis fans shit on verts and vice-versa ? There are shit games and good ones in both genre.
>Why do horis fans shit on verts and vice-versa ?
Honestly they don't its a phenomena i only see in these threads that just seems to be old cunts who have issues with moving with the times or those who just have to bring that football team mentality to everything.
I think it's like a dogs vs. cats thing where they're both popular and enjoyable pets but some people only like cats and some people only like dogs (and a minority enjoys both).
Partly it's down to temperament and partly it's down to what you played first or what first really hooked you, like I played a lot of vertical euro shmups as a kid (tyrian/raptor/major stryker), but my buddy played a lot of horis (darius/fantasy zone) so we gravitate to those styles of game
Both have their merits and some games on both sides have been designed by very talented people
Where are my fun loving wingmen at!?
I haven't played anything in a while. I want play something fresh with cool-as-shit gimmicks. Any recommendations? Preferable something not all too common either. I am looking for something that might have slipped under my radar.
I prefer it here desu even though i've been on shmups forum for years it's just to fucking uptight and spergy for me, I like being able to chill and call someone a cunt whilst engaging in shmups discussion.
People may fap to the doujins but no one actually likes the girls in game
last week I beat Axelay for the first time (first time I play and beat a shmup)
this week I beat it without continues for the first time.
In the second loop (hard mode), I finally had to use a continue, it reset my score to 0, and I lost all motivation to continue playing.
Might not be exactly what you're looking for, but most arcade games (through MAME) will happily let you keep playing as long as you keep hitting the 'coin' button.
It's the home console versions mostly that will throw that old school limited continues/git gud bullshit at you.
Armed Police Batrider was my favorite back when I had a MAME setup
Anyone familiar with Sky Soldier? A local arcade just opened up that has this, and I want to dominate the high score. Any tips would be appreciated.
Creditfeeding just feels shallow and brings you nothing. When you use a credit, your run is already ruined anyway, since your score gets set to zero.
Just use savestates as level select and practice every level until you have it down.
Sorry to bother. Trying to run Darius Gaiden from taito legends on PS2 emulator but there's a bunch of vertical black lines on the sprites? I've tried playing around with the settings but they're still there. Is there any known fix?
The new 3D release of Fantasy Zone, I heard it has different games built into it in the US release than in the JP release. Is this true? I've never played Fantasy Zone but it seems really neato.
>Just use savestates
Bullshit if you're the type that gets frustrated so easily then you don't deserve progress, go find another genre. Sometimes il go a good hr+ before i get a ketsui run going don't see me pleb raging or credit feeding though just keep working on it and thinking about your errors, utilize save states and watch other players runs for ideas and that's how you improve. Fuck the cheapened experience of credit feeding.
>Creditfeeding just feels shallow and brings you nothing. When you use a credit, your run is already ruined anyway, since your score gets set to zero.
>Just use savestates as level select and practice every level until you have it down.
This guy is spot on.
Savestates are a tool to build the necessary skill and knowledge before you put it all together in full runs so suck a dick with your retard skill hindering attitude and stay pleb.
I am not actually sure what you are asking. But in 3D Fantasy Zone you can choose to play the international or japanese version of the game. On top of that they also added some other secrets.
3D Fantasy Zone 2 has a new minigame though called Loop de Loop Land, which is an endless shooter, which is really neat.
Can't remember if it was 1 or 2, but they added a mode where you can use your coin total as ammunition, with a quick shop menu on the touch screen.
All the same, both are brilliant, and I think you should invest.
I don't get what people have against credit feeding. You get access to the whole game, you get to touch on everything in it, and after you beat it, you can decide if it is something you really want to invest your time into.
I tend to beat games over and over. Eventually practice across all levels will make you better as a whole, and the variety motivates you.
For every run you use fewer credits, and eventually you may be running 1cc loops. So long as someone is having fun shooting things, and achieving new personal bests, it shouldn't matter.
If anything savestate runs, playing level 4 over and over again until you can play it like a mozart symphony one-handed sounds more tedious than fun. But I see the value it has in practising for perfect runs. But it is hardly a method I would recommend to anyone for enjoying themselves. It's a method that delivers results though.
The arcade paradigm's biggest downfall is the chaos and confusion it causes. There's no way to just play a shmup. You have to be indoctrinated into a philosophy and choose whether you're in 'practice mode' or doing 'runs' and what what practices you personally exercise and then you have to think backwards for reasons to justify what you already decided to do and why it's the best way to play and everyone who plays differently is autistic. It's a load of shit. Just look at your post. Who fucking cares.
There is no contradiction. When you only credit feed then you practice less efficient, because you always have to redo the first levels again, plus you use savestates, then you can prctice better because repeating one level over and over again helps you much more to memorize it.
If you think repeating something over and over again is tedious, then I think this genre isn't really for you.
I personally often feel my run is already ruined even if I only lose 1 life. I often can't help myself but restart if this happens. Credit feeding might be cool for just one time playing through the game, but after this you want to be able to beat it, and for this savestates are much better.
You mean stage 1 volcano or stage 4 volcano?
They both involve staying in one spot and shooting a lot.
Unless you mean the one in middle of stage 4, in that case grab your lasers and move all over the screen and stay as far back as you can, at some point it just stops shooting rocks and you can safely proceed.
I've always liked shoot em ups as a kid. Stumbled onto this thread, holy fucking shit.
> the way I play is the only way to play
> your way to play is human excrement and you are an excrement-eater
I now think this board needs IDs like /pol/
>>copying other players' strategies
>>not a cheapened experience
Another idiot who doesn't have the personal experience to understand what it is to watch a superplay and ADAPT ideas and strategies to suit your own ability/level. The fact you imply anyone could literally just copy other players shows how clueless and low end skill you are as everyone does things a little different, daft cunt.
The fact you think a contradiction exists proves how ignorant you are to proven strategies for efficient learning. As it has already been explained better than I why don't you go read prometheus's guide to practice "full extent of the jam"?
The "fun" of finally hitting a personal best strong run of a game you've been working instantly out weighs the practice struggle to get there in fact the frustration just makes it more bitter sweet.... credit feeding kills all that and i find progression super fun so repeating a stage over and over until improvement becomes visible is always fun for me especially when something clicks or you have a new idea that turns out to be fruitful.
I'm not talking about efficiency, I'm talking about how he said using credits ruins the run but savestates don't. Yes yes when savestating you're 'not doing a serious run' but you could say the same thing about using credits. And I've read that arrogant trash you can shove the full extent of it up your ass.
It's so funny how you're so hostile towards method actual decent players use, wtf is your best achievement in the genre? be honest. The reason for that is your crummy credit feed approach drags you down massively and although good runs are possible that way i guarantee it will take you a shit ton longer. In b4 muhh fun.
Can't imagine anyone who played a shmup for a long time thinking that. Don't you naturally do little side-challenges for the early stages you've mastered? Like killing the hard to reach enemies or killing everything as fast as you can.
Don't see what that has to do with it. Whether you're doing such mini-challenges or just following a maximal score route, the important part is being immersed. Score is a way to achieve this but not the only way.
>score is a meme motivator to master stages that should be fun enough to want to master by themselves
Sure, but what do you do after you master them? Without score or some similar system all you'll be doing is repeating the same easy routine over and over again.
That's not how it works unless you're some kind of superhuman player who can 1cc games in a few attempts. In practice you'll be spending most of your time redoing the first few stages to progress a bit further.
There isn't enough shmups out there to keep you going for to long if you remove scoring.
Oh you think moving the goalposts and removing an actual element then replacing it with a fictitious notion makes a feasible point. Football matches without goals.... that'd be shit no? oh i must hate football then i guess. Dickhead.
Oh. No. Only after you master all the stages.
Oh I'm laffin you think scoring is as integral to shmups as goals are to football. I'd call you out for being a new-age danmaku dipshit for believing such nonsense but I don't want to be as presumptuous as you've been so I'll just leave it at concluding you're an idiot.
Im an idiot with far better scores than you'l ever achieve, keep plebbing. The example is spot on as both football and shmups can be played for score or can be played with aimless casualness ie plebby credit feeders and ppl kicking about down the park. You silly son of a cunt.
>You re-examine your initial assumption about how much you like the game.
The scoring system IS part of the fucking game you dumb cunt so liking it is liking the game. You're probably a dumb shit who just thinks of graphics and music only "hurrr i lyk dis theme". People love chess for the actual game element and not to wank over the rook yet someone who plays to win isn't told "hurrr u shud ply other game u dont really like chess ". I literally hope you die of cancer in front of your mother.
I'm confident I could smash your scores but I won't because I don't want to support your mistaken notion that it matters in a discussion.
The example is not spot-on because playing with a football (the object) is not playing football (the game). In football (the game) the main objective is to score more points than the other team. In a shmup, the main objective is to survive to the end of the game, and score is not. There couldn't even be any basis to say whether you did or did not complete such an objective, because scores are only comparable to other scores from other plays of the game.
>The example is not spot-on because playing with a football (the object) is not playing football (the game). In football (the game) the main objective is to score more points than the other team.
Mfw you completely ignore that people play football down the park without goals,aim or a pitch just to have fun.
>That's not playing football.
Ask anyone what they are doing in that situation and they will say "playing football" you have chosen to create a fictional line that seperates the competitive rule driven football from the kick about but both infact are to be described as playing football. The same goes for lads passing a rugby ball although not "competitive" play they are infact playing rugby. The act of playing resides in the object manipulation and not solely in the taking part of the same thing within various rule sets.
You schooled no one lmfao the fact you have to rely on semantics says it all AND im a better player than you. MFW you don't know what "playing" covers but think you've made some killer argument. Congrats you're a don.
Sorry, I'd love to shut you down but doing so would violate my principles. Every time you idiots are confronted with an idea your first response is "What's your score" because you think if you have a higher score you can ignore the idea. I'm not going to play along with that fantasy.
Why would that be stupid? It's one of the goals of the game which which directly contributes to the ultimate goal of the game, which is getting a top score. Just like getting the ball into the goal would be a goal in football which contributes to getting a good score in football.
Getting a top score isn't a goal of the game, it's the goal of the imaginary meta-game you and people who share a similar hallucination have made up. Nowhere does any shmup imply the goal is to get a top score, nowhere does one even define the details of what a "top score" is or punish you for not getting one.
What if survival and score are both important objectives in shmups? Many games give bonuses for remaining lives and unplanned deaths are counterproductive to scoring and clearing alike. In most games, they go hand in hand to make up the core gameplay.
Football doesn't have a clearly defined "top score" either because the score of your team is only meaningful in relation to the score of the other team. Actually the "top score" there is even less clearly defined because shmups come with default scores set there by developers.
>the score of your team is only meaningful in relation to the score of the other team
In the same game. This is the key part. Scoring isn't the same because they're only meaningful compared to scores of other players OUTSIDE the game you're playing. They're a nice vanity thing to compete over but they're external to the game itself.
On the arcades the scores are built directly into the game. The only difference is that the competition does not happen simultaneously. Honestly though discussing this is pointless because of how subjective it is. Can we at least agree that scoring is a big part of the appeal for many players, and removing the systems in place would fuck over those players while benefitting no one?
Sure it would but that would require re-writing history or breaking into every hard drive and re-programming the games and it would also would be silly to pretend anyone here suggested removing them from games that already exist, so why do you bring it up?
But say you're making a game yourself, why would you not include a nice scoring system in it? It's not absolutely necessary for the game to be fun, but it's also a great bonus for many people and has a lot of benefits with no drawbacks I can think of.
Personally I would consider it a failure if I couldn't think of something other than score to do with a shmup, unless I'd decided from the beginning to make a score-focused game which I'm not against.
Maybe this makes me casual scum, but there are just too many of these games and too many other games out there to play for me to get too worked up over score.
When I start playing a shmup it's just to beat it. If after that I really liked it, then I'll get get into trying to ICC it or do loops if it has that. But after that I'm usually done and ready to move onto another one.
What my scores were I rarely even remember or care about. I can see that certain people will want to pick one or a handful of shmups and really put time into mastering them as much as they can. But I don't think it's necessary at to enjoy the genre. There's just too much else to play, something really has to grab me hard to want to focus on one thing that much.
The thing is all you are ever doing is taking the same level of skill and applying it over and over and never actually getting better, I know it's impossible to sell it but honestly if you really get into a game deeply you'l get to experience/see so much more and from that point it's hard to ever play any other way. I do accept that alot of western players seem to have this attitude of needing an end and then that's it where as score players tend to look at these games as never ending quests that can always be improved on... why be content with a basic 1cc? why not get the 1cc and come back some time and take what you learnt and start building on it again for a stronger 1cc or maybe qualifying for a loop if it has that? why walk away from games that ar gonna be there forever and why mindlessly drown in choice when a good selection of a few you love can keep you occupied for years to come and the rewards of improvment will always champion getting just another basic 1cc with the same stagnant skill set forever. You can enjoy them however you like of course but that whole it's their so i have to play it thing gets you no where imo and you will notice one day that some are simply better than others so when you've tried them all come back and stick to those? When i try most shmups now i just think meh i could be playing ketsui and head straight back to it because for me it's just that damn good although i've 1cced many games over the years and scored a bunch but this one just feels perfect to me, maybe after i eventually get the 2 loop clear i'l feel differently who knows.
>I know it's impossible to sell it but honestly if you really get into a game deeply you'l get to experience/see so much more and from that point it's hard to ever play any other way
I do totally get that, and there have been games like that. I've put literally thousands of hours into Monster Hunter games and am still nowhere near mastering it. I've been playing fighters pretty well since the genre started and when I get into a new one will put huge amounts of time into getting as good as I can with it.
With shmups though, partly because there are so many of them I'm content to just play through until I'm finished and then play another. It might be that although I like them, I just don't like them enough to devote as much time to. I'm sure it is a different game when you get to that very high level, but I have way more games than time so I have to pick and choose.
Fair enough mate but if you ever do find a game of great quality just stick with it for no more than an hr/2hrs consistently a few days or more a week and i promise you'll surprise yourself at how far you will start to go.
I did play Gradius V pretty heavily and got so I could get through several loops when I sat down to play. In general though, shmups are games that I just play through and then move on once I've beaten it the way I do with platformers and other action games. It's very rare I find a game I like enough that I really want to master it.
Eventually you hit your skill ceiling and won't be making much progress, it'll start feeling more like a chore than fun and you burn out and never play again. hooray! videogame elitism.
This genre was a fucking waste of time, I want my last 2 years back.
That's kind of how I feel. Loops can be interesting, but they're really just more of the same. Shmups are fun, but I don't find them strategically interesting enough to want to invest the amount of time to get down to mastering one of them. Once I've been through the levels and fought the bosses I'm ready for something new. There's just too much great stuff out there to play.
I wish I could at least get Omote but I always get nervous as fuck when I get to stage 5, but most of my runs end up with 150M. Feels really fucking bad, man.
>I always get nervous as fuck when I get to stage 5
Haha man i know that feel so well, however i've noticed recently that has gone mostly, probably because it's becoming more frequent and because i have such stable routes with only 10% or so of what i'd call possible trolling via bullet rng so yeah keep at it man and don't be afraid to refine some routes to safer options as the value of more lives/bombs upon clearing outweighs the score of all out risking scoring with many deaths.
>but they're really just more of the same. Shmups are fun, but I don't find them strategically interesting enough to want to invest the amount of time to get down to mastering one of them.
You're talking from ignorance though as without actually doing it you can't speak on the strategic depth that you clearly haven't experienced or witnessed and you prove it with your thought that loops are more of the same? This couldn't be further from the truth and if it was then my ketsui loop 1 routes would work identically in loop 2 but guess what? they don't AND the 2nd loops have entirely different scoring systems to the first. I'm not attacking you but you can see how lower tier players really don't see past aesthetics at all and assume the depths aren't there because they can't see them. tl:dr Shmups are strategic as fuck man for real.
It's more that if I have to get good enough at a shmup that I'm getting into going through multiple loops before it gets strategically interesting I don't see that as a great way to spend my time.
I don't discount it's there, but I don't find the games interesting enough that I want to play a single one for that long. I like the games, just not quite that much. If I want fast pace and a lot of strategy I'll play a fighter, if I just want straight up heavy strategy I play a strategy game or roguelike.
For better or worse, shmups are like popcorn games for me. I have to like one a whole lot to even want to 1CC it after I've beat it. I could probably count on my hand the number that I've gone on to play more than that.
But it's cool, we all have our favorite genres. If shumps do if for you, that's great.
Yeah exactly you know what you enjoy and that's great and i encourage everyone to do the same. My only beef as far as this community goes is the amount of ppl who like to talk without having the skill/experience and thus misinformation/ignorance occurs.
I guess I heard that one of the releases had both the original and a game called Tears of Opa-Opa, but maybe I was confused? Either way I've
piratedthe original as part of the 3D Archives release. I think I'll make a plan to import both, especially now that my one friend is teaching over in Japan right now.
Yeah, it's kind of like Parodius. Lots of sillyness, not exactly the "high brow gag" advertised on the box.
>Tears of Opa-Opa
Well the second Collection in Japan, launching later in December does have a 3D remake of the original mastersystem game, if that is what you mean.
Get both collections if you can. Galaxy Force 2 is in the second one too, and while it isn't really a shoot em up, it is really neat.
>the assholes that assume you're inexperienced when you disagree with them.
It's because you can't grasp that your view is evidence of your inexperience but you insist on having an opinion and convincing yourself it holds weight against people who actually do this shit and know for a fact that you're wrong.
That's a pretty natural result of this being a small board. 4chan is massive, but /vr/ overall is quite small and within that there aren't many people who specifically focus on shmups enough to play at a high level. So naturally people are just going to talk about the experience they have with games. Most are here because we like retro games in general and this thread always talks about shumps which are a fun genre. In general the people who come here haven't and have no interest in mastering them, just playing through them is enough for most.
It's like the whole Ikaruga thing with some guy a while back saying the game sucks because it's not fun at a high level of play. But for me and what seems like a lot of other people around here that really doesn't matter. It's a fun shooter, I enjoyed getting to 1cc it and thought the scoring was neat. But I dropped it after that, there's just too much else I want to play.
The problem then comes when those people are told their experience is invalid because they chose not to play it at a high level. Just because it's bad at a high level of play doesn't mean it's not a fun game played casually. The classic Mortal Kombats are all absolute trash when played competitively because they're terrible and broken at high level of play. But for the overwhelming number of people who were into it that never entered into the equation at all, and it was just a super fun game. Ultimately that's what matters and it would be foolish to tell someone not to play Mortal Kombat because it's not great at a master's level.
>The problem then comes when those people are told their experience is invalid because they chose not to play it at a high level. Just because it's bad at a high level of play doesn't mean it's not a fun game played casually.
The problem is these people refuse to aknowl;edge that their view just doesn't apply to high level and that they're missing out on a lot of depth which you can only see through personal experience. If the causlas you describe admit they're casual and talk on that level then fine but often they try arguing with actual players with a stubbornness that makes them look stupid as fuck and it's very frustrating trying to explain things to them only to be met by a barrage of rebuttal drenched in yet more ignorance and assumptions. Ultimately there is room for everyone though.
Yes, TwinBee is pretty accessible and fun.
The 3D classic version has very great controls (the circle pad works great for shmups, there should be more shmups on the console), and you can adjust the rapidfire to different speeds.
Be aware that it's a very short game, only 5 levels, but then they start looping with added difficulty, like most arcade games of the time, so it's actually an endless game.
>The problem is these people refuse to aknowl;edge that their view just doesn't apply to high level
Actually I see almost none of that. It's you and maybe one or two other people who go on about high level play. Most people here simply don't care.
When someone says they enjoyed playing Ikaruga and someone else pipes in to say their opinion is shit because they weren't playing at a high level all it really does is fracture what tiny community is here. Whether or not Ikaruga (or whatever, that's just a stand in example) is bad at high level play simply doesn't matter to the vast majority of people here.
The problem is compounded by at least one of the people who play shmups at a high level is a complete asshole to people who aren't. And wear their skill like a badge that gives them free reign to put down what they see as lesser players.
So disagreement quickly gives way to name calling and then trolling and then the whole thread goes to shit. Again.
The end result is that people stop wanting to come to these threads. Shmups are a genre I really enjoy and though I don't bother to truly master them, I've always enjoyed them and been playing since the NES days. But I hardly ever come into these threads anymore specifically because of all the trolling and shit flinging back and forth. And that's the part that sucks.
No the thing with Ikaruga is it's praise is tiring as fuck and ALWAYS from casual players so naturally when a player talks about Ikaruga he's talking about the actual game and who it works in a learning/execution way but the rest who just wank over it all day are only ever talking about aesthetics and buying blindly into it's undeserving reputation this causes a communication cross roads between the 2 positions. As a casual game i don't doubt that ikaruga may be alright because its very easy and has that kinda brown 3d that the west seems to eat up but to act like it's in anyway special in this genre is a joke, why doesn't psyvariar or giga wings get the same kinda attention? They both had equally as original ideas and executed them perfectly, the reason why is you didn't have mainstream dildo reviewers feeding them to the casuals which is exactly why Ikaruga gets mentioned so damn much... spoonfeeding. The point is from players that if the ikaruga suck offs actually did try playing the game they pretend to love so much then maybe they'd form a different more educated opinion but no it's far easier to stay casual and spout ign tier bullshit.
>The end result is that people stop wanting to come to these threads.
Myth, every one of these threads gets way over 450 replies, people love the bants + if you would avoid threads because of how words on a screen make you feel then im sorry but you're an emotionally underdeveloped man baby who needs to harden up.
The board is so slow than so long as one person bumps it a day it will always get that many responses. But so much of what goes on in these threads is fighting and name calling that even though they fill up quickly, what's the point?
>No the thing with Ikaruga is it's praise is tiring as fuck and ALWAYS from casual players
Naturally if the majority of people who come here only play shmups causally then of course that's what the discussion of it is going to be.
I admit whole heartedly that I played it casually. It came out on Gamecube, I played it, had fun with it and that was my experience. It wasn't Gradius V or anything, but good fun. If it's a completely different game when played at a super high level and actually sucks, that's fine, but it's not going to change the experience I had with it.
However, if knowing that even mentioning it will bring all sorts of vitriol and troll posting it makes me not just not want to mention it, but not come here.
But that's me, and like I say I enjoy shmups but am not crazy for them. You're the one who's invested and if you like the threads the way they are then more power to you. Personally I wish there was a hardcore shooters thread for people who want to talk about high level play and another for those who just play these as regular games. I'd like to talk shmups, but this place can be miserable.
>treasure delivers 3 of the best shmups of all time despite not solely being a shmup company
>danmaku scum get bootyblasted because the games aren't entirely about about dodging bullet patterns and have actual level design
>people love the bants
Who? No one here likes you or the shit you fling day in and day out. It's not about getting hurt feelings, it's about the same fucking trolling and bitching about casuals every day.
Is it fuck you big bollock, it beats having to endure you casuals saying absolutely fuck all for hundreds of posts like "hurrrr i lyk da graffix hurrrr playing for scoar is wurk n no funz hurrr shud i get joystik to play deez games, hurr i luf ikarooga". Fuck up you cunting cream puff.
Serious question. If you're such a hardcore STG fan, why do you choose this as your forum to talk about them? Almost no one else except you plays them seriously here or care about your score babble.
I frequent all stg forums and despite your blinkered vision have happily informed people and had encouraging player talks with various posters here, I feel compelled to fix inaccurate information from being spread and like to help those out who actually want to play these games.
>he thinks bitching about "casuals" and calling other people's favorite games shit is "informing" and "fix inaccurate information"
this is gold, neckbeards at their finest
I'll give you one guess...
I try to avoid emulation anymore. Nothing against it, I just have some major obsessive compulsive issues, and having a massive amount of roms causes me issues when I want to play something. It's slightly less bad with carts and discs in my physical collection.
I will however look into those two games, as I have heard good things about both.
Thanks friend Anon, sounds like a good game for me to try to attempt to get decent at, before playing others.
Not even part of the score brigade and I have to tell you that text is garbage.
Picture not related.
Just made up shit all over the place, every game can be played how you like and each developer had different things in mind however in the modern era CAVE for example clearly develop with scoring in mind thus why Ikeda and gang put so much effort into designing such deep intricate scoring systems.
Also why does caves console/pc releases and crimzon clover etc bother having leader boards that only allow 1 credit scores? Must be because scoring isn't the point right? Get outta here.
>the opponents in shooting games were the guys you shoot
The biggest opponent in STGs is yourself. This genre is not about beating others, it's mainly about self-improvement.
Playing shmups is like playing an instrument. And every game is another song you learn to master.